Material & Painting Tips For Large 10-12'+ Wide Curved High Gain Silver Screen. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 06-04-2010, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok. I am wanting to build a fairly large curved silver screen similar to my Silver PVC material, but larger than I can get that material. 10-12' wide (maybe larger custom screens in the future if successful). That material has a peak gain of at least 5 and possibly as high as 10 from what I've been told. I would like a gain of at least near 3 or higher. I'm wanting a silver/silver gray for good ambient light contrast and ambient light rejection coming from the side. I'd love similar ambient light rejecting properties to the Silver PVC, which is a very shiny/glossy...almost liquid paint like looking material. It is angular reflective and when light is coming only from the side it looks like a giant plasma tv at 9'2" diagonal, because the screen rejects so much of the light.a

Actually when I shoot a light on it from the side it makes the screen appear a very dark gray instead of the light silver color. So, I'm guessing I will need some kind of glossy paint to achieve this angular reflective quality that doesn't absorb too much ambient light, correct?

Anyway, what material should I used for this? Blackout Cloth (does this have to be primed? I don't know much about painting) or this material from Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/170-movie-PROJEC...item518dda8394


Also, I've never really painted before. So paint recommendations and tips would help a lot. I need an HVLP sprayer to get an even coat, right? Is there any tips to do a good job? I've spray painted a screen like 6 or 7 years ago, but it was too splotchy and uneven (it was gray).

Thanks!
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post #2 of 22 Old 06-04-2010, 05:57 PM
 
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Wow, you want your cake--a big cake--and eat it too. First, let me ask what is driving you toward all this gain and a curved screen--as that will help take you to the right next step(s)?
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post #3 of 22 Old 06-04-2010, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by threed123 View Post

Wow, you want your cake--a big cake--and eat it too. First, let me ask what is driving you toward all this gain and a curved screen--as that will help take you to the right next step(s)?

Well, because this is my current screen I discovered and created. I don't want a clear downgrade. I want a lateral move in features and quality hopefully but an upgrade in size.

Here's why. First shot running an ECP 4500+ CRT Projector at 9'2" diagonal. The others from an Infocus 4805.






Projector was tilted in this shot and had to adjust the little leg to correct it.


I essentially want a similar screen that is larger. I may be willing to sacrifice some of the gain for a darker and slightly warmer silver color for increased contrast in ambient light, but basically I want it to reject ambient light that comes from the side pretty well and reflect light back well. So, I'm assuming I need glossy paint to keep it from absorbing the ambient light rather than rejecting it. In my room with my screen and a room with white walls the ANSI contrast is very noticeably increased like having dark walls.


I now use a Sharp DT-500, but thinking of upgrading to the Sharp XV-Z12000 Mark II. One other thing is that I have a red LED rope light that goes all the way around my screen frame about a half inch behind the screen material. When I turn all the lights on solid a fade to black looks solid black and it's increased the perceived on/off from 4,000:1 to what looks like 50,000:1 or higher. I tried this with a white screen and it didn't work. The white screen absorbed some of the bounce red light and put a VERY obvious red tinge to the image; very noticeable on fade to blacks too. My Silver PVC shows no hint of this....just a picture that jumps off the screen and looks like a very high contrast projector. Without paying the cash for a JVC RS2, of course.

So, in conclusion. I'm being driven by....Ambient Light Contrast/Quality and having a larger screen.
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post #4 of 22 Old 06-04-2010, 08:23 PM
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The 12k is one of the two best consumer 720P projectors ever made. Very, very good picture quality. But it's also a dim projector. You're not going to be happy with 144" & a 12k.
I have a da-lite high power 92" wide screen. My 12k was too dim after just 500-600 hours, at contrast setting. The VP4001 by Marantz has more lumens and contrast that is nearly as good. But even it was too dim at the highest contrast setting, after just 500 or so hours.

I've never tested it, but I've heard this screen combined with ceiling mounted projector is good for at least 2 gain.

I'm looking for a paint mix also. The S-I-L-V-E-R and "Silver Fire" are the highest recommendations for gain + ambient light rejection, from what I've read so far. I haven't spent much time researching it yet though. Neither one can be made from a single trip to Home Depot. Both require purchasing some products via the Internet or mail-order.

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post #5 of 22 Old 06-04-2010, 08:48 PM
 
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I haven't seen or read about any paint that could get more than 3 gain without hotspotting. Most of the solutions on this forum are about 1.3-1.5 gain I think. I will defer to MissMan--he'll have an opinion such as Silver Fire, etc.

That said, a bigger issue is how to create the curved screen. To get the highest gain and ambient rejection, it would have to follow the curvature of the projection lens so that angular reflections focus back to one central location. This only happens in a retro-reflective screen (which you might want to consider such as a Dalite High Power 150" diagional for instance ). Any curving of stretched material will simply cause the center to flatten with some curvature near the edges leading to central hotspotting--I've tried that in the past.

I do remember back in the 3 tube crt days, that some people were using material stretched of a wood frame with a couple of vacuum blowers behind in a sealed chamber to suck air out and thus creating a curved screen. If you go this route, you'd need a pvc material or similar that is airtight. Actually good rubberized BOC might be enough air tight to work with an ordinary vacuum. I'm going out on a creative limb here, but you could make a frame using 1" x 6"s with a piece of plywood glued and sealed to the back. Drill a hole for a tube to suck air out. Then stretch and seal material to the front--paint it, etc.--, then using a vacuum suck air out the back and cap/seal the hole. Sounds easy, but getting it (and keeping it) airtight would probably be a nightmare. Anyway, my mind had fun thinking about it, though...

How did you get the curve in your existing screen?

I have a 144" flat screen with BOC sprayed with RS-MaxxMudd-LL using a Mits HC3800 in low lamp mode in a basement cave and it's great--bright enough and can handle overhead can light with no problem.
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post #6 of 22 Old 06-04-2010, 09:54 PM
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Do you remember Deronmoped on the CRT forum? He had or has a curved 4+ gain screen. I don't remember what paint he used, but it may have been a Rustoleum formula. I do know that he had trouble getting it perfect. As in it was tough not to see roller marks. Might want to research what he did. He hasn't posted in a couple years and you'll probably have to search him in the archives.

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post #7 of 22 Old 06-04-2010, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threed123 View Post

I do remember back in the 3 tube crt days, that some people were using material stretched of a wood frame with a couple of vacuum blowers behind in a sealed chamber to suck air out and thus creating a curved screen.

Vutec pearlbright was the popular material for that solution. AVS gave me a quote on it a few years back and it wasn't overly expensive.

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post #8 of 22 Old 06-05-2010, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threed123 View Post


How did you get the curve in your existing screen?


I cut a 4.5" deep (at the center) horizontal curve and a 2.75" deep vertical curve with a jigsaw and then converted a PC fan to an AC fan which sucks the screen into a curve through as similar shaped hole in the back. It has a plywood backing to make it air tight. Gaps are filled in with wood glue.
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post #9 of 22 Old 06-05-2010, 03:21 AM
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MT, the only viable suggestion I can make that would parallel the PVC would be the Silver Metallic (brushed aluminum) Laminated Waffle Core sheeting available from Laminators Inc.

It comes in 10' x 5' sheets, and it's fairly pricey (especially shipping).

It has exactly the same properties you want, and will bend along a curve very precisely due to it's rigid skin. But it is a logistic nightmare to ship/handle so that is why I never pursued it "DIY'er" wise.

Beyond that, S-I-L-V-E-R would work "in the dark" at even much larger sizes, but not with any real amount of ambient light.

I postulate that a very densely sprayed coating of Auto Air Aluminum (fine) would duplicate both examples, but you'd have to spray it on in a diluted form, over many coats with each row widely overlapping the previous Row.

I surely would NOT use BOC for that project...I'd source some GatorFoam (3/16" to 1/4" x 10' x 5') or Sintra (same size) board.

Where is your exact location in the Land-o-Lincoln?

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #10 of 22 Old 06-06-2010, 09:36 AM
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Hello MTyson.

I'm from the thread below as you know.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...932169&page=40
I want to continue my attempting here.
To all, I'm trying to make a big screen using some of sony dynaclear screen's texture.
Sorry for my bad English.


I've happened to place a dynaclear screen horizontally and then side of the screen just appeared.
I realized that the dynaclear have a different viewable angle between horizontal and vertical. If I replace that texture all horizontally,it would be no need to make curved screen any more. There is still hotspotting, but watchable. Although I don't know that I can paste the textures on my frame well yet.
I want to up some screenshots later.Would you mind if I post these in here?
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post #11 of 22 Old 06-06-2010, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Localzone View Post

Hello MTyson. I'm from the thread below as you know.

You will probably do better to post your own thread with a title telling what you want to do.
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post #12 of 22 Old 06-06-2010, 12:11 PM
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More important, if he's going to make a Screen out of the Sony material, at the size he's wanting, he's not going to have much brightness going for him.

That material was never made for large screens, nor will it perform well if the surface is not perfectly flat.

Lastly, there's something inherently wrong seeing anyone write, "there is some Hot Spotting but it's watchable."



Sadly, this seems a case were hoped for results exceed the boundaries of reason...and experience. I see only issues unless the PJ employed is exceptionally bright, the PJ mounted correctly to accommodate the reflective properties of the material used, and the surface is made to be perfectly flat. Achieve those aims, and performance just might measure up.

Too bad he's in Nippon. We could hook him up with some very good "paint-able" alternatives.

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post #13 of 22 Old 06-06-2010, 06:05 PM
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OK. I'll stop talking about my situation. Sorry.
I don't use my pj in my room lighting so it may not so fit for this thread.
It's funny that you know "Nippon" word.
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post #14 of 22 Old 06-06-2010, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Localzone View Post

OK. I'll stop talking about my situation. Sorry.
I don't use my pj in my room lighting so it may not so fit for this thread.
It's funny that you know "Nippon" word.

If it still hot spots why not curve it? Curving gets rid of hot spotting.
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post #15 of 22 Old 06-07-2010, 01:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

MT, the only viable suggestion I can make that would parallel the PVC would be the Silver Metallic (brushed aluminum) Laminated Waffle Core sheeting available from Laminators Inc.

It comes in 10' x 5' sheets, and it's fairly pricey (especially shipping).

It has exactly the same properties you want, and will bend along a curve very precisely due to it's rigid skin. But it is a logistic nightmare to ship/handle so that is why I never pursued it "DIY'er" wise.

Beyond that, S-I-L-V-E-R would work "in the dark" at even much larger sizes, but not with any real amount of ambient light.

I postulate that a very densely sprayed coating of Auto Air Aluminum (fine) would duplicate both examples, but you'd have to spray it on in a diluted form, over many coats with each row widely overlapping the previous Row.

I surely would NOT use BOC for that project...I'd source some GatorFoam (3/16" to 1/4" x 10' x 5') or Sintra (same size) board.

Where is your exact location in the Land-o-Lincoln?

I'm much further south. In AR.

What about blending a light gray high gloss or white high gloss with silver? Would that give me the glossy silver like it has an enamel coating or something like the Silver PVC?

Can Gator Foam be curved?


BTW, I just bought two new projectors. An Optoma H79 (needing a new lamp) for $191.38 + $30 S&H and an Optoma H78DC3 (with about 300 lamp hours) for about $365 shipped. Total for both was almost just $587. Just 5 years ago or so brand new that could have cost as much as $17,000!
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post #16 of 22 Old 06-07-2010, 02:31 AM
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Hi. That's because of my wood frame. I need to add some materials to make my frame curved and I have to think about how to. And even if it succeed, pasting textures on these curved frame will be extremely hard work to do.
I've tried pasting a lot of white Inkjet Printer Paper on my frame yesterday.
And the borders of these papers became un-noticeable when I was just only 3 ft from the screen. But Dynaclear's texture would never be so. If the texture has a little bit insignificant sagging, it will be very noticeable(Although It's just only the scene that has so many bright color in picture).

Anyway, that texture cuts the light vertically well, so if you can place this texture vertically and paste on curved frame correctly, it might fit for your use(it will gonna cut the lights from the side). But it's so hard to do.
Painting may be more doable.

PS. The biggest problem is my English. hehe. It's so hard to express my thought!
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post #17 of 22 Old 06-07-2010, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson View Post

I'm much further south. In AR.

What about blending a light gray high gloss or white high gloss with silver? Would that give me the glossy silver like it has an enamel coating or something like the Silver PVC?

G'Morning! If you look closely, the PVC is not really so much "Glossy" as it is "satin" Using a Eggshell with aluminum would be more effective than silver because the silver just isn't going to be as reflective. Under many/most circumstances, aluminum's overly reflective nature is detrimental. Your case (and size) would seem to suggest otherwise.

Quote:


Can Gator Foam be curved?

Absolutely! At 3/16th" it will curve both ways and can easily adhere to a Framework without the need for a Fan assisted pull. Or in the case of a sealed frame, pull into a curve shape with such a vacuum assist.

Quote:


BTW, I just bought two new projectors. An Optoma H79 (needing a new lamp) for $191.38 + $30 S&H and an Optoma H78DC3 (with about 300 lamp hours) for about $365 shipped. Total for both was almost just $587. Just 5 years ago or so brand new that could have cost as much as $17,000!

You have got a bad case of the "Disease", MT!

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post #18 of 22 Old 06-07-2010, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

G'Morning! If you look closely, the PVC is not really so much "Glossy" as it is "satin" Using a Eggshell with aluminum would be more effective than silver because the silver just isn't going to be as reflective. Under many/most circumstances, aluminum's overly reflective nature is detrimental. Your case (and size) would seem to suggest otherwise.

Interesting. Will have to consider that.

Quote:


Absolutely! At 3/16th" it will curve both ways and can easily adhere to a Framework without the need for a Fan assisted pull. Or in the case of a sealed frame, pull into a curve shape with such a vacuum assist.

So, it can be used as a torus (curved both directions with a vacuum assist)? How powerful would of a vacuum/fan would I need to pull the curve with a sealed frame. I simply use a small pc fan I converted to plug into the wall. Would that be enough?


Quote:


You have got a bad case of the "Disease", MT!

You're telling me!

LOL. Yeah, I have known this for awhile. I need a 12 step program I think. Now I have:

NEC 6PG (CRT)
ECP 4500+ (CRT)....although now both CRTs need repair.
Toshiba ET10U Super Short Throw (Been my main projector since my DT-500 lamp went out)....(DLP)
Sharp DT-500 (DLP). Needs a new lamp.

60" Mitsubishi 3D Ready 120hz DLP HDTV.

I really need to sell some of these soon.

So....um...Yeeeeah. I have the disease alright. lol. I just couldn't pass up these two that I have wanted for years. I still remember when they were so far beyond my price range and I wanted one. I hope there is a clear jump in quality over my wonderful DT-500. I will miss the iris control, but the lens shift will help me get more of my SPVCs gain since I will be able to mount it above me rather than table mounting.
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post #19 of 22 Old 06-07-2010, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Localzone View Post

Hi. That's because of my wood frame. I need to add some materials to make my frame curved and I have to think about how to. And even if it succeed, pasting textures on these curved frame will be extremely hard work to do.
I've tried pasting a lot of white Inkjet Printer Paper on my frame yesterday.
And the borders of these papers became un-noticeable when I was just only 3 ft from the screen. But Dynaclear's texture would never be so. If the texture has a little bit insignificant sagging, it will be very noticeable(Although It's just only the scene that has so many bright color in picture).

Anyway, that texture cuts the light vertically well, so if you can place this texture vertically and paste on curved frame correctly, it might fit for your use(it will gonna cut the lights from the side). But it's so hard to do.
Painting may be more doable.

PS. The biggest problem is my English. hehe. It's so hard to express my thought!

Your English seems pretty good for a foreigner. I've seen far worse English from many who speak it as their native and only language. lol.
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post #20 of 22 Old 06-07-2010, 02:44 PM
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too bad your not in illinois anymore... your one of the old dawgs on the block... would've liked to have seen your setup.
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post #21 of 22 Old 06-08-2010, 01:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow. Local Zone sent me some pics of his ambitious SUPER Dynaclear project, which I had planned to do awhile back. I thought I was the only one ambitious (or crazy) enough to even consider it. The cost of the experiment put me off, so I hope Local Zone succeeds.

Anyway, I doubt any DIY screen can match the ambient light quality with what I see here. This will be so cool if it works. I'm not too familiar with "gator board", but from what it sounds like it sounds like maybe the Dynaclear material could be glue to it in 4 pieces and then bent into a curve....or no?



LIGHTS OFF:

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post #22 of 22 Old 06-09-2010, 08:10 AM
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MTyson,

honestly, i don't see how his results are much different from the results you achieved at the start of this thread... only he showed the difference in reverse of what you showed.

what he did very well was to ACCENT just how bad such a scene is on a white screen when a ton of ambient light is present. and he did that by placing the dynaclear entirely within the white background and then placed the other light grey screens away from the dynaclear.
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