S-I-L-V-E-R base substrate? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 06-23-2010, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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So I'm planning to paint my screen directly on the drywall in my dedicated HT (100% light controlled) and I've got the screen wall already drywalled, sanded, primed (3 coats, rolled) and sanded (between coats and also after the final coat). Right now it's smooth. Very smooth. And very white.

I'm planning to use the S-I-L-V-E-R mix, sprayed on with the Wagner Control Spray gun. But I did notice that there are some very slight variations in the "tone" of the entire screen wall. Might be a function of some of the mud showing through the primer, who knows. But it's not obvious... it's only noticeable in perfect lighting conditions with dual 500-Watt halogens while I'm working in the room.

My question is: do I need to lay down some sort of substrate (white paint or other type of primer) before spraying on the final S-I-L-V-E-R mix (planning 7 dusted coats)? Or can I go right over the primed wall as it stands now? The current screen wall is so white and so smooth that I get the feeling that I don't need to do any more to it, but I wanted to check here with the experts first before I went ahead with the final mix.

Also, how smooth should the final screen be, after all 7 duster coats? Should it be "textured" because of the silver flakes, or should it be smooth as glass?

Thanks!

--Drew


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post #2 of 29 Old 06-24-2010, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Nobody?

--Drew


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post #3 of 29 Old 06-24-2010, 01:47 PM
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imperfections to drywall will be grossly enhanced when projected on with SILVER. high sides will show up as brighter and low dips will show up as shadows. my suggestion to do a little more work getting the screen prep'ed.

as for the your screen being already white. you'll want to go with a quality brand's brightest non primer white in a satin to semi-gloss finish. behr, sherman williams, dutch boy, valspar...

as for the final finish... it should not so much glass smooth... as it should be the finest sandpaper you ever touched... like a 3M 1500 - 2000grit.
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post #4 of 29 Old 06-24-2010, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, the drywall itself was skim-coated smooth with mud before I did any sanding or priming. It's flat and smooth. There are no imperfections due to screw holes or seams.

On the paint, I'll try to get some of the whitest white paint I can find in semi-gloss. Probably Benjamin Moore, since I really like their paints. But what do I do with it, roll it on or spray it on? Do I sand it when it dries or just leave it alone?

Do I spray all 7 of the topcoats the same, or do I put the last ones on heavier? Or lighter?

I want to get this right from the start. I'd hate to be disappointed in the results just because I didn't ask enough questions.

--Drew


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post #5 of 29 Old 06-28-2010, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew_V View Post

Also, how smooth should the final screen be, after all 7 duster coats? Should it be "textured" because of the silver flakes, or should it be smooth as glass?

Thanks!


Such devotion to a dedicated theater demands a perfect S-I-L-V-E-R.
By all means take every precaution to assure a 'baby skin' smooth substrate. The multi dusting coats buildup will provide all the texture you'll want or need.
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post #6 of 29 Old 06-28-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

Such devotion to a dedicated theater demands a perfect S-I-L-V-E-R.
By all means take every precaution to assure a 'baby skin' smooth substrate. The multi dusting coats buildup will provide all the texture you'll want or need.
CMRA

Where did "He" come from?

And WHERE are those SCREENIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





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post #7 of 29 Old 06-29-2010, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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So from what I understand, you do NOT want to have a smooth painted surface before the SILVER goes on. Instead, you want a smooth PRIMED surface, just like what I've already got.

Okay, so I'm back to spraying the SILVER mixture directly onto the 3 coats of sanded primer that I have right now.

--Drew


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post #8 of 29 Old 06-30-2010, 02:20 PM
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Back to spraying the silver but can it be rolled or not?

 Specialize in maximizing performance on a beer budget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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post #9 of 29 Old 06-30-2010, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg1292 View Post

Back to spraying the silver but can it be rolled or not?

From what I understand, the best results are achieved by spraying. The silver flakes in the mixture seem to be affected by rolling so that they aren't as effective.

Also, since there will ultimately be SOME sort of texture if you roll it on the wall, that texture will diffuse the light more so than a smoother sprayed surface, so the resulting picture won't be as bright or crisp.

But since I haven't actually DONE anything yet, I can't say that these assumptions are true or not. It's just what I've read on the forums from folks who have done their screens.

--Drew


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post #10 of 29 Old 06-30-2010, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg1292 View Post

Back to spraying the silver but can it be rolled or not?

Rolling is NOT an option. MM has the Wagner spraying down to a fine art. Cheap but excellent. Ask nicely, he'll walk you through.
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post #11 of 29 Old 07-01-2010, 08:23 AM
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The word is out...and plainly stated. DO NOT attempt to roll on S-I-L-V-E-R.

The entire premise behind using a Mix with a very small amount of reflective material within is that it be applied via successive, ultra light coats. There is simply no way possible to do that via a roller.

Spraying S-I-L-V-E-R correctly is JUST AS essential. Each coat goes on so light, by itself it adds very little material. Done in that manner, even with the Mix being so very 'watery' as it is you would not have any risk of developing Runs. It's the gradual build-up of reflective particles, particles that are slightly attenuated by being immersed within a slightly opaque Glaze, that allows one to have such a highly reflective surface without the expected hot spotting or a severely restricted viewing cone.

Overlapping each row by 60% is also absolutely critical toward getting a perfectly even coat. And once again, if the coating is applied thinly enough, then even with the overlapping the amount of paint applied is still light enough that no runs will occur.

Lastly, it's best to wait as long between coats as possible. The initial 2-3 coats will dry to the touch reasonably fast, but the subsequent coats add their moisture to that of the underlying coats (...and they are still moist even if they feel dry...) and the surface takes on the same drying properties of any Polyurethane coating. By the time you reach the 6th coating, 90 minutes drying time under "GOOD" drying conditions is mandatory.

To nail it down, consider this. It's better to wait longer between coats for a reasonably dry surface, than to push it, and even if no runs develop, having the final coat take literally HOURS to dry because it has trapped considerable moisture behind it, moisture that must "Gas out' via evaporation through a surface coating that is not all that permeable, being a "sealing Glaze".

If either of you are uncertain about the procedure, or what Sprayer to use, how thin the mix might be, the speed / distance by which the paint is applied, or what beer is best consumed between coating, PLEASE...ask before you squirt. You can get by drinking crap like Natural Light and always relieve yourself of the load, but screw up the S-I-L-V-E-R application...even a little...because you didn't ask before you squirted, and your likely to be S.O.L.

No one wants that!!!! Especially the Guys that steered you in that direction.

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post #12 of 29 Old 07-01-2010, 12:13 PM
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I'm a PBR man myself and will buy a power sprayer since rolling
isn't a good option for a higher end screen. Total light
controlled room has me leaning towards the s-i-l-v-e-r. Wish
there was someone in my area who could just shoot it for me
but the challenge is in doing itself.

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post #13 of 29 Old 07-02-2010, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg1292 View Post

I'm a PBR man myself

Your on the wrong Forum.

I suggest AAA, because that Rot Gut will Kill Ya Dead!

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #14 of 29 Old 07-02-2010, 12:16 PM
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After last night I think your right. Pitchers of Bloody Mary's Oh my!!

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post #15 of 29 Old 07-16-2010, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Your on the wrong Forum.

I suggest AAA, because that Rot Gut will Kill Ya Dead!

Spoken like someone with a handsome beer budget. Try PBR from a keg on a hot summer day sometime. Good cheap beer...breakfast of screen painters worldwide.
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post #16 of 29 Old 07-17-2010, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

Spoken like someone with a handsome beer budget. Try PBR from a keg on a hot summer day sometime. Good cheap beer...breakfast of screen painters worldwide.


Naw....I'd shoot for the Moon instead.


Blue Moon, that is.

Or Fat Tire.
.....maybe Blue Paddle

But PBR? Pretty Bad Rotgut.

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post #17 of 29 Old 07-18-2010, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I sprayed about 10 coats (so far) of the SILVER mixture on my wall. For some reason, the Wagner sprayer wouldn't spray the regular mixture, so I had to thin it with about TWICE the normal amount of water. It sprays pretty well now, but since it's so diluted, I'm going to put on twice the number of coats.

I can see from the overspray that there is a lot of silver reflectivity in the mixture. Yet it still looks pretty darn "white" against the base background primer. Almost as if the mixture was sprayed on clear. It should be interesting when I throw an image onto it.

Anyways, it's slow-going because of all the coats, but I think it'll turn out nicely. The screen wall already looks pretty uniform across the surface and I figure I've got another 2 or 3 more coats to go.

--Drew


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post #18 of 29 Old 07-18-2010, 06:03 PM
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It takes a while to get the knack for spraying the overlap coats just right. I had to thin my mixture down more than expected to, otherwise the spray cone wasn't wide enough. The cheaper Wagner (which I have) doesn't spray as wide a cone as the more expensive heavy duty model. After all is done, you might see vague light/dark tracks where the paint did not overlap properly which I toned down somewhat with a dusting coat afterwords--a spray held further away.
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post #19 of 29 Old 07-18-2010, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew_V View Post

Well, I sprayed about 10 coats (so far) of the SILVER mixture on my wall. For some reason, the Wagner sprayer wouldn't spray the regular mixture, so I had to thin it with about TWICE the normal amount of water. It sprays pretty well now, but since it's so diluted, I'm going to put on twice the number of coats.

Risky. I sprayed a S-I-L-V-E-R recently and was complete at 8 Coats that followed an initial "Duster" coat (for > tack < )

Quote:
I can see from the overspray that there is a lot of silver reflectivity in the mixture. Yet it still looks pretty darn "white" against the base background primer. Almost as if the mixture was sprayed on clear. It should be interesting when I throw an image onto it.

Ya think? Well iffin' you was me, you'da be stoppin' now, and doing just that...least wise before adding another 2 - 3 more full coats.

Quote:
Anyways, it's slow-going because of all the coats, but I think it'll turn out nicely. The screen wall already looks pretty uniform across the surface and I figure I've got another 2 or 3 more coats to go.

The trick to spraying a good S-I-L-V-E-R is to reach a point where the layered Silver is dense enough that the combined layers appear to be solidly on layer. NO MORE! The Glaze is what is allowing so much Silver Metallic to be present without unconscionable Hot Spotting or Granularity. But if you go too far, those issues will present themselves.

Remember, you can always add another coat or two....but subtracting that one particular "Coat too Far" isn't going to be possible. So hold up and give it a preview after 1 full day to dry. If there are weak areas....or Horizontal spray lines, you'll spot 'em.

It seems I should have some macros of the finish I put onto a 16' x 9' screen. They were more along the lines of the absolute maximum amount of S-I-L-V-E-R you can apply.

Here they are: sequenced photos showing appearance and surface texture in the 1st 3 coats of S-I-L-V-E-R HG in normal and a inset with Enhanced CR mode to show surface detail and Mica concentration.

1st Coat


2nd Coat


3rd Coat


Final (7th) Coat


Finial (7th) Coat expanded


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post #20 of 29 Old 07-19-2010, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I've gone through less than half of the mixture that I made up originally (20 oz. water (I had to double the water to thin it more), 1 qt. glaze, 2 oz. silver).

I guess I was under the assumption that it would take more of the mixture than that. My screen is a 110" diagonal, so it's fairly large.

To be honest, I can't really tell much of a difference between the plain white wall and the sprayed wall to this point. It still looks basically white, with a very light glaze over it. It doesn't look grey or silver at all. The combined layers don't look like a "coat of paint" or anything like that. It just looks like it's got a slightly different sheen to it than the bare wall.

I'll try to compare your pictures against my wall tonight when I get a chance.

--Drew


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post #21 of 29 Old 07-19-2010, 12:45 PM
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Whitish Silver. Or Silvery White. Either description applies.

It's no "Gray" screen by any stretch, hence the admonishment about it NOT being a Ambient Light Screen offering.

You have a hard time seeing the Silver's effect because your at the low end of Silver concentration. But your going about the spray application the right way. Myself, I can slow down on my passes, and lay down a thicker coat without Runs, but then again....I've had lots of opportunities to get it right. (...we'll forget about the "wrong" ones... )

And as I said, my examples are at the extreme other end of the "Silver" scale. I used 10% Silver Metallic (12 oz. total) to a Gallon of Glaze / Water Mix, not 5%. So my results would take on a higher degree of Silvery Sheen under bright reflected light.

As stated earlier, as soon a close and careful observation shows a equal distribution of the reflective particles across the entire Screen's surface, that is when you should stop...let dry 12 hours at least, then do a image test.

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post #22 of 29 Old 07-19-2010, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I just took a look at it in some medium light. I think I'm finished. There is definitely a uniform look to it and the overspray seems to completely cover the black-painted walls on each side of the screen area. I'll still end up testing out the projector when I get the shelf built in the next few days just to make sure.

But yeah, I think I'm done!

--Drew


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post #23 of 29 Old 07-23-2010, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to follow up on this thread, I mounted my projector and ended up liking the image just as it was. So I didn't add any more coats -- I stopped at 9 or 10 (I forget), with a more highly-diluted S-I-L-V-E-R mixture. I maybe used twice as much water.

Anyways, here are some screenshots. They're only SD DVD but they look okay. You can see there is some nice contrast in the wheelwells and also in the driver's side window. Colors are nice and bright, well-defined, even without calibrating the projector. You can actually see the SD blur at the front end of the car. It's not a fuzzy picture, it's just the video resolution.




And a closeup:


--Drew


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post #24 of 29 Old 07-24-2010, 07:08 AM
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Wow.

Now that's Pop & Sizzle!!!

....even for a Cartoon flick.

Can ya round it out with some reference "Human" shots?

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post #25 of 29 Old 07-24-2010, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll be happy to do that once I get the projector mounted and my equipment set up again. I had to box it all back up because I'm going to be painting the room and cutting more lumber. I just didn't want to expose the projector to any excessive dust if I can help it.

I should be done with cutting wood and stuff in a week or so. I have to get the doors installed at least so I can close off the theater from the adjoining room where I'm cutting all the wood. I'll post a variety of screenshots when the projector is back up and running.

--Drew


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post #26 of 29 Old 07-24-2010, 02:54 PM
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A kinda oblivious staytment but;

Duncha ab fergittin' ta cuvor dat scween !

Try to wait as long as you can until you do, and then use the lightest Plastic painter Drop you can find (...check HD) HD sells a 2x pkg of 9' x 12' x 1 mil plastic that is ideal for such.

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post #27 of 29 Old 07-24-2010, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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It should be easy enough to do once I get the false wall built. I'm just going to put plastic across the face of the opening in the false wall (on the wood), so I don't have to tape the plastic directly to the screen wall itself.

Yeah, that paint splatters everywhere when you're rolling it, although I did paint manage to paint the ceiling successfully without splattering the screen wall, so I'm guessing the walls won't be a big deal.

More to come.

--Drew


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post #28 of 29 Old 07-28-2010, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew_V View Post

Just to follow up on this thread, I mounted my projector and ended up liking the image just as it was. So I didn't add any more coats -- I stopped at 9 or 10 (I forget), with a more highly-diluted S-I-L-V-E-R mixture. I maybe used twice as much water.

Anyways, here are some screenshots. They're only SD DVD but they look okay. You can see there is some nice contrast in the wheelwells and also in the driver's side window. Colors are nice and bright, well-defined, even without calibrating the projector. You can actually see the SD blur at the front end of the car. It's not a fuzzy picture, it's just the video resolution.

Methinks you have outdone yourself. Time to take your bow.
Xlent screen shot too. Mind sharing your camera and technique?
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post #29 of 29 Old 07-29-2010, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Methinks you have outdone yourself. Time to take your bow.
Xlent screen shot too. Mind sharing your camera and technique?


Thanks, but I really didn't actually do much at all. I just sprayed the stuff on the wall! The mixture did all the work for me.

My camera is just a cheapo 5 MP Panasonic DMC-TZ1. Nothing special. I think I had everything on "Auto" mode... no flash. Maybe the first picture was with ISO 80 or 100, I can't remember.

Anyways, I started with just the bare drywall. The drywall guy put a skim coat of mud on it to help smooth everything out and to keep the surface texture uniform. Also, once I put primer on the wall, it would be more uniform in terms of the primer "soaking into" the wall.




Then, I put on 5 coats (I think) of Glidden PVA-type primer. It was very thin, but it looks like it covered pretty evenly. I sanded between coats with 180 grit paper. It was VERY smooth. Finally, I used a Wagner Control Spray gun (looks like an older model) to apply the mixture. Here's the mixture I used:

S-I-L-V-E-R Mixture
Link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...silver&page=13

1 quart (32 oz.) of Behr Faux Glaze (at Home Depot)
2 oz. of Delta silver (at Michael's craft store)
8-10 oz. distilled water (I actually used about 16-20 oz. of water)

I had to use more water than the original recipe called for, because it was too thick to go through the viscosity-measuring cup that came with the spray gun. I sprayed my coats at about 30-45 minute intervals, with about 9 or 10 coats total.


Here's the spray gun I used:





And here's a closeup shot of the wall after spraying. You can see the amount of overspray on the surrounding black border, although you can see small specks of silver extending all the way out to the SIDE walls, which are about 2 feet away. That stuff really travels far!




Anyways, that's it. Nothing special, and I would use this method for a screen again in a heartbeat. There's no way I would pay $500+ for a "regular" screen unless I had no other choice. This spray technique right on the wall (or a suitable white substrate like a whiteboard) is definitely the way to go. When I had the projector mounted, I previewed "The Matrix", which is extremely dark in some scenes, and it looked amazing. The level of detail in the blacks and dark greys was absolutely perfect. In the opening scene where Trinity was sitting in the dark room on the computer, you could see every detail in the shadows.

Anyways, I only applied the stuff to the wall. I didn't invent it. I owe all my results to the originator of the mixture and to the recommended spray technique. It worked beautifully. Anyone who might be afraid that a DIY screen with a painted mixture would suffer with detail and dark blacks or bright whites, shouldn't be. I've never seen such a clear picture with rich colors in my life.

I hope this helps encourage others to use this method. It's well worth the $15 in materials cost.

--Drew


My basement theater build thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1243820

Started: 2/20/10
Completed: 10/10/10
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