My Screen blog: Behr Silverscreen to xyz (RS-MaxxMudd is in the lead). *Pics* - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 44 Old 11-29-2010, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Room Dimensions: 20x22
Screen: 118inch canvas painted light gray (Rolled 2 coats of Kilz and then rolled 1 coat of Behr Silverscreen (SS))
Projector: Epson 8350
Current Throw distance: 14ft 10inch
Finished Throw distance: Will be ~12ft
Ambient Light: 6 windows, but can be controlled a bit with blinds. Not at all "bat cave" dark.

Here are some pics to give you an idea of what I have currently. It was 4pm w/ an overcast sky so it wasn't full in your face bright in the room, but still pretty bright. There are 2 windows per wall:


Stock projector settings, nothing has been changed. Dynamic = Torch bright for ambient viewing. Cinema = Darkest setting, better color/flesh tones
Camera on tri-pod, Auto ISO, using 2 second timer to reduce blur

1920x1080 Desktop Background

Blinds open, Cinema mode


Blinds open, Dynamic mode


Blinds closed, Dynamic mode!!! :sunny:


Avatar 720p rip

Blinds open, Cinema mode


Blinds open, Dynamic mode


Blinds closed, Cinema mode


Blinds closed, Dynamic mode


Full darkness outside, with 4 60w light bulbs on full blast in center of the room
Easily watchable, but I'd rather not have the lights on full blast.

Dynamic


Dynamic


Some up close shots of my screen as it is:

There is definitely orange peel / texture over the entire screen. If I look at the screen from an extreme viewing angle I can also see a few roller marks




This shows what the unpainted canvas looks like:


Why I'm wanting to go with a new paint formula:
While the silverscreen is definitely livable, I find myself having the 8350 in Dynamic or Living room "torch" mode a majority of the time. Also, the darker earthier colors like browns and greens seem really really muted. There isn't much 'pop'. Looking back at my desktop picture you might say "what the heck is Mike thinking". But if you look at the Avatar pics you'll see how things seem 'blah'ish. Also I want to be able to really enjoy the projector even with small amounts of ambient light.

I have already purchased the $50 Refurbished HVLP sprayer. Currently the RS-MaxxMudd formula is in the lead for me because it seems to be an idiot proof mixture.

My questions
What kind of screen prep will be needed? Give it a general once over with a foam sanding block?

Can I spray right over SS or will I need to have a white 'base'?

That's it for now. Follow along and I'll be posting more pics of my progress.

Any bets on how long before MM posts in here?
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post #2 of 44 Old 11-29-2010, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike 01hawk View Post

Any bets on how long before MM posts in here?
3 hrs.

But my Wife wants to go to dinner.

Your on the right track. You could use the existing surface, by wet sanding it to a slippery smooth state. The darker background behind the RS-MaxxMudd LL would enhance Blacks even more through attenuation. Might cost a teeny bit of PoP, yet still be crazy better than the SS alone.

The best choice is to use some Primer AFTER sanding, get a nice Flat white reflective base going for your, and then spray RS-MaxxMudd "Standard" for the proven Sizzle as well as significant contrast enhancement.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #3 of 44 Old 11-29-2010, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Yikes, that was an expensive trip to HD and Michael's!!!



What you see pictured cost ~$60 + another ~$60 for what you don't see, the "no name" HLVP: http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html. Then if you add in the cost of the stretcher bars (~$160 IIRC), cotton canvas (~$10), and staple gun (~$20) used on it, you're looking at over $310+ for a screen I hope someone in the Tulsa County area wants to "rent" my HVLP and buy the unused MaxxMudd once I'm finished!!!

Questions
Is the 100 grit sanding sponge the right grit?

Since I'm using the "no name" HLVP, how much of the 12oz distilled water should I use?

I'm assuming I can get measuring syringes at places like Walgreens? I'll google that now.
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post #4 of 44 Old 11-30-2010, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike 01hawk View Post

Yikes, that was an expensive trip to HD and Michael's!!!

What you see pictured cost ~$60 + another ~$60 for what you don't see, the "no name" HLVP: http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html. Then if you add in the cost of the stretcher bars (~$160 IIRC), cotton canvas (~$10), and staple gun (~$20) used on it, you're looking at over $310+ for a screen I hope someone in the Tulsa County area wants to "rent" my HVLP and buy the unused MaxxMudd once I'm finished!!!

Questions
Is the 100 grit sanding sponge the right grit?

Since I'm using the "no name" HLVP, how much of the 12oz distilled water should I use?

I'm assuming I can get measuring syringes at places like Walgreens? I'll google that now.

You should not need to use Syringes when mixing RS-MaxxMudd

That darn 'ol Frame is a big expense.

The Sponge is a "Medium Grit" and will work fine if a light touch is used. Aggressive sanding under firm pressure will introduce scratches though.

There might be a "Used" market on this DIY Forum for the "No Name" sprayer for those who purchase them for what amounts to a one time use. All others....quit'cher Beeatchin'....if you use it for even 1-2 other projects that can benefit from a professional looking finish, it's paid for 2-3x over the $49.95 cost.

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post #5 of 44 Old 11-30-2010, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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How am I going to measure out 16oz from a 32oz container (the poly). Or 7oz from an 32oz container? Just borrow the Mrs's glass measuring cup?

What about the water mixture? Any thoughts on that?

Also, while I'm not reeeeeally griping about the costs involved, all the little costs DO add up. Something a DIY'er needs to consider if they go down this path.
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post #6 of 44 Old 11-30-2010, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike 01hawk View Post

How am I going to measure out 16oz from a 32oz container (the poly). Or 7oz from an 32oz container? Just borrow the Mrs's glass measuring cup?

What about the water mixture? Any thoughts on that?

Zat's what I do. It's all Water Based and rinses out easily enough...considering. Besides, those would be some mighty big Syringes! Have some Paper towels handy to wipe the lips of the Cans after you pour, and when pouring the Thicker UPW, pour out at least an extra ounce to allow for the paint that will stick to the side of the Measuring cup.

BTW, be sure to stir the Poly up really well before you pour it out (do NOT shake) because it settles /separates in the Can it comes in.

Quote:


Also, while I'm not reeeeeally griping about the costs involved, all the little costs DO add up. Something a DIY'er needs to consider if they go down this path.

No more so than spending even more for a Mfg Screen and getting even less value for the money spent. Then there is the personal satisfaction of being able to hook Thumbs behind Suspenders and crow a bit about how "I did it myself, thankyouverrrrymuch !!!"

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post #7 of 44 Old 11-30-2010, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike 01hawk View Post
Yikes, that was an expensive trip to HD and Michael's!!!



What you see pictured cost ~$60 + another ~$60 for what you don't see, the "no name" HLVP: http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html. Then if you add in the cost of the stretcher bars (~$160 IIRC), cotton canvas (~$10), and staple gun (~$20) used on it, you're looking at over $310+ for a screen I hope someone in the Tulsa County area wants to "rent" my HVLP and buy the unused MaxxMudd once I'm finished!!!

Questions
Is the 100 grit sanding sponge the right grit?

Since I'm using the "no name" HLVP, how much of the 12oz distilled water should I use?

I'm assuming I can get measuring syringes at places like Walgreens? I'll google that now.



Mike - I'm about to go on a "Shopping Spree"

Can I ask.. Is THIS what we see in this picture:


RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light)
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
12 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
4 oz. Folk Art Champagne Metallic Gold #675
7 oz. UPW flat
16 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
12 oz. distilled/tap water**




*Edit to add - Looks like it is, It just took some eye strain to read the sizes contents on those smaller bottles


CAN YOU VIDEO TAPE YOURSELF WORKING THE SPRAY GUN WITH SOME BACKROUND MUSIC..... LOL!!!!!

GOOD LUCK!!!!!
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post #8 of 44 Old 11-30-2010, 08:01 AM
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That's what you see, all right.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #9 of 44 Old 12-02-2010, 05:32 PM
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your post inspires me, just sayin... the SS looks great and I cant wait to see some before and afters!! I am poised to journey down this road although I may be getting a bit ahead of myself, Still have to run wire, drop in new black ceiling tiles, paint normal walls etc but Im really just wanting to do the screen and have it ready!!! Should you paint walls after the screen? I might like that idea better A wagner sprayer can assist in this process too!!

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post #10 of 44 Old 12-03-2010, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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The sprayer arrived!

However I'm going out of town this weekend, so it won't be until the 11th that I'll be able to focus on my screen.

I do plan on painting the walls in that room a nice dark/deep hunter green
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post #11 of 44 Old 12-03-2010, 07:35 AM
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What size screen are you running by the way?

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post #12 of 44 Old 12-03-2010, 07:37 AM
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Oops, just kidding saw that it is 118" Sorry That is a great size, I was looking at 120" and then considered dropping to 100". Guess i can compromise at 110!!!!

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post #13 of 44 Old 12-07-2010, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick update:

Projector is mounted at it's final spot. 12 feet on the dot away from the screen so it's in it's "premo" location for throw distance vs screen size.

I thought I'd get a LOT more brightness being closer. So much so that I could live in Cinema mode 24/7. That's not the case I'm still finding myself switching to Living Room even in total darkness

Needless to say I can't WAIT for this weekend to get here so I can spray some RS-Maxxmudd!!!
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post #14 of 44 Old 12-08-2010, 01:05 AM
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waiting for your findings before I go and buy a HVLP. Anyone know how the 'noname' brand HVLP compares to the Wagner Control Spray HVLP? This will be my first DIY screen (first projector, to be completely honest) and at first I was just thinking of going with a rolled on mixture, but if a HVLP system will give me the best results, I'll go with that. I read thru the entire sticky thread at the top of this forum, but that just talks about simple paint mixtures. What other mixtures are out there besides the Maxxmudd?

Mike I have a similar projector to yours - Epson 8700. I just got it and tested it out. This is what it looks like on a primed wall




Basement's not done yet, so walls will be painted darker
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post #15 of 44 Old 12-09-2010, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aharami View Post

waiting for your findings before I go and buy a HVLP. Anyone know how the 'noname' brand HVLP compares to the Wagner Control Spray HVLP? This will be my first DIY screen (first projector, to be completely honest) and at first I was just thinking of going with a rolled on mixture, but if a HVLP system will give me the best results, I'll go with that.

I've been suggesting the "No Name" unit to everybody while they are available because it's really a good unit, normally priced at over $100.00, and it has inter-changeableSized Tips. The older Wagner Control Spray has less output and so requires that the paint be as thin as possible. Also the older Wagner is a "All in one" Electric HVLP, and it's filters are right there....in the vicinity of the spray dust. It also develops heat that requires it be disassembled immediately after paining lest the retained heat bake the paint inside the Nozzle to a point that cleaning it out becomes much harder than simply rinsing.

The newer Wagner Control Spray "Plus" is a very good unit....but if given a choice between $88.00 and $49.00, there is not enough difference between the two units (no name) to warrant the more expensive choice. Only if you plan on using the sprayer chosen for many other projects that involve large areas would the Wagner CSP be the preferred choice. But be also advised that the Wagner CSP only comes with one size Tip, and it puts out paint at a considerable rate. This means finding the right viscosity for the output so as to not "dump" paint onto the smooth surfaces we like using for Screen substrates.

And yeah....spraying is ALWAYS the preferred route to take...with a Basic or Advanced paint. Perfection (...or nearly so...) in a Screen surface's texture and composition is always going to render the absolute best results.

Quote:


I read thru the entire sticky thread at the top of this forum, but that just talks about simple paint mixtures. What other mixtures are out there besides the Maxxmudd?

Lots of 'em. Beyond the "Basics" into "Advanced", the primary differences involve using Metallic content within paint to improve gain, contrast, and the rendering of detail.

RS-MMud's higher performance "Cuzin" is Silver Fire....pretty much essentially the same thing excepting that it uses a RGBY derived colorant (ultra dark Gray) that allows the shade of Gray to be virtually infinitely adjusted to whatever sade needed to combat the effects of ambient Light.

RS-MaxxMudds are a bit more "mix-friendly" and the "Standard" and "Retro" versions still possess a decent degree of ambient light rejection despite being fairly light shades of silvery gray. They two enhance perceived contrast, and they have gains of 1.2+

Mike I have a similar projector to yours - Epson 8700. I just got it and tested it out. This is what it looks like on a primed wall


Quote:


Basement's not done yet, so walls will be painted darker

Ceiling should be darker than the walls. It doesn't have to be "Black", however the closer the top of the Screen is to the Ceiling, the darker that Ceiling should be.

These times are exciting times when one is considering the future state of a project. Making judicious choices and getting started helps make for a more relaxed "do". It's all to easy to become confused and "stuck in the quagmire" of too many choices and too many conflicting remarks.

Best to go with the proven results you see posted by "Happy Campers" as there is seldom seen anyone fibbin' about how good a job they did/were able to do, or how well it performs. I believe in all my suggestions, but they are not the only ones out there by any means.

They just seem like it sometimes because I can't sleep much between 2-5 am.

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post #16 of 44 Old 12-09-2010, 09:14 AM
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MM, thanks for the detailed reply. Sorry, I don't know anything about HVLP sprayers. What are the main differences between the nonname HVLP/Wagner Control Spray HVLP vs. an automotive HVLP system like this one? I'm assuming the automotive one would require an air compressor whereas the noname/wagner comes with one? But I already have a 3lb air compressor. I'm wondering which will give me better results.

I'm building my own DIY speakers too and I want to paint them piano back. Can I use the noname HVLP for that? or will the automotive HVLP sprayer be better suited for painting something piano black?

And if I get the HVLP, I'll probably use that to paint my whole basement, making my job much easier. Should the screen be painted last?
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post #17 of 44 Old 12-09-2010, 09:36 AM
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nevermind about the noname HVLP vs automotive HVLP question. I googled it and found this link which explains everything. I think I'll get the turbine HVLP from gleempaint
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post #18 of 44 Old 12-10-2010, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aharami View Post

nevermind about the noname HVLP vs automotive HVLP question. I googled it and found this link which explains everything. I think I'll get the turbine HVLP from gleempaint


Good man. Air Pressure Hose fed HVLPs demand extra equipment such a Rust / Water Filters, and need the specific Tips for the best results with a given paint. And at even the highest pressures they will not apply paint as quickly.

I have a $800.00 HVLP Rig w/32 Gallon Tank. It's not been used in almost 3 years since I became a "Wagner-ite"

Well OK...I have used the Tank to pump up my Car/Lawnmower tires.

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post #19 of 44 Old 12-11-2010, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick update. -Still in progress.

Behr Silverscreen


After 2ish coats of Kilz2 (yeah, I can't tell much difference either)


I LOVE HVLP!!!

OMG!!! Why didn't I do this ages ago. It is SOOOO SIMPLE. Well let me re-state. It's a bit of a PITA getting the paint to the right viscosity, and then having to filter it while you dump it into the bowl. But it took me like a grand total of 30 seconds to put on the first Kilz2 primer coat. I was actually ticked off I was finished! I WANTED MORE STUFF TO PAINT!!! LOL

Anyway back to the beginning of today:

Got the screen setup in the garage. With the help of 2 small space heaters it's still somewhat warm in the garage even though it's ranging from 50-30 Fahrenheit outside. I sanded all the high peeks and a couple roller marks w/ 3M 320grit sand foam. It really made a difference. Instead of being sandpaper rough, the surface is now smooth, but there is still a slight eggshell, it's still not smooth as glass.

I then threw own 2.5 coats of Kilz2. I say 2.5 cause I ran out of paint on the 3rd application of Kilz2

Also in my haste to check out how well I did on painting I got the HVLP too close to the wet paint and the constant air blowing out of the tip caused some runs Oh well, nothing some sanding won't fix.

I mixed up the RS-maxxmudd but good lord. I probably added 30oz of water to get it to the right viscosity for my sprayer. I guess that's no big deal.

Here's a question though. I have 2ish coats of Kilz2 on the screen but I also have enough Behr UPW left over to do 2 coats of UPW. Would I get any benefit from spraying UPW (versus the Kilz2) before I go RS-Maxxmudd?

BTW This is the pattern / wait time I plan on following which came from a modified version of: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post19493373

1. Spray one coat of primer
2. Wait 1 hour
3. Spray another coat of primer
4. Wait 1 hour
5. Spray another coat of primer (but run out half way thru )
6. Wait overnight
7. Sand lightly with fine sand sponge (3M 320 grit)
8. ??? UPW Coat 1 and 2
9. Duster coat 1 of RSMM
10. Wait 45 min
11. Duster coat 2 of RSMM
12. Wait 45 min
13. Coat 1
14. Wait 1.5 hours
15. Coat 2
16. Wait 2 hours
17. Coat 3
18. Wait overnight
19. Coat 4 if necessary
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post #20 of 44 Old 12-12-2010, 06:02 AM
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All that sounds good, but I'd strongly advise you increase the width of your masking plastic by at least 2x that of what I see. Once you get into the Silver-ed paint you'll see the over spray.

There is not that much compared to other sprayers, but it's there, and it will stick to close-in surfaces.

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post #21 of 44 Old 12-12-2010, 09:15 AM
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Sweet!

I'm right behind you mike....

Did 1 "Duster" last night with Kilz and a second coat this morning. 2nd coat was much better than the 1st.

Looking pretty good... Getting ready for coat 3 before noon and a 4th coat before the end of the day...

Figure I'll be ready for Maxmudd another day.
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post #22 of 44 Old 12-12-2010, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

I'd strongly advise you increase the width of your masking plastic by at least 2x that of what I see

Nahhhhh. It'll just give me an excuse to hook up the HVLP again and re-paint the garage

There was a peak about 3/8 of an inch by 1 foot that was present in the original Silverscreen. Sanding down the Kilz to get rid of it and prep for the duster coat, there is now a 'gray' oval area in my screen. So it looks like I'm gonna have to throw on some UPW anyway. Bah humbug, I wanted to be done w/ this screen today. I was surprised how many 'gray' areas can be seen even thru 2+ coats of primer anyway.

Good deal Expert
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post #23 of 44 Old 12-12-2010, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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So for those following along at home here is what's happened so far.

Started off w/ 2 rolled coats of Kilz2, 1 rolled coat of Behr Silverscreen back in 2004, fast forward to this weekend andddd....

Saturday:
* Sanded w/ 320grit
* 2.5 coats of Kilz2
Sunday:
* Sanded w/ 320grit
* Too much Kilz2 had been worn away on a ridge I found, so it was showing too much Behr Silverscren beneath, like a faint 'birth mark'. UGH
* 2 coats of UPW, couple ridges can be seen, I'll re-evaluate after the 3rd sanding.
Tuesday:
* Sanded w/ 320 grit, ridges from Sunday were deemed no biggie.
* 2 light coats of RS-MM, everything seems WAY too wet but isn't running.
* 1 heavier coat of RS-MM and everything went to crap
Splotches cause I got too aggressive and 'boogers' cause I didn't clean the gun after the 2 light coats.

Splotch example

Wednesday:
* Heavily sanded a LOT of the RS-MM, w/ both 100 grit and 320 grit. Got 90% of the 'splotch' areas removed and 100% of the 'boogers'
* 2 medium coats of RS-MM. Blood pressure finally coming down.
Thursday:
* 2 medium coats of RS-MM. Things look 98% uniform
Friday:
* 1 last coat of RS-MM. Using a Craftsman 500w spotlight, my OCD eye can't see anything that would be distracting

In total, here's my coat count:
~2 Kilz2
2 UPW (Behr Ultra Pure White)
8 RS-MM!!! I have enough left over to maybe do 2 light coats.
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post #24 of 44 Old 12-17-2010, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Post directly above has been updated w/ my 'log'

Needless to say I'm at work here watching the clock tick. I can't WAIT to get home and put the screen back up in the HT room and fire up my 8350
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post #25 of 44 Old 12-17-2010, 11:31 AM
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So were you able to hold off for the 2 and 3 hours between medium coats?

Did you clean out your spray gun after each coat?

inquiring minds would like to know! Since I am getting painting help, we would be quite drunk after waiting this long in between coats...

PS..used the Michaels 50% of coupon and saved $5 on my paint supplies, they had it all in stock at 1 place!
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post #26 of 44 Old 12-17-2010, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newB24 View Post

So were you able to hold off for the 2 and 3 hours between medium coats?

Did you clean out your spray gun after each coat?

inquiring minds would like to know! Since I am getting painting help, we would be quite drunk after waiting this long in between coats...

PS..used the Michaels 50% of coupon and saved $5 on my paint supplies, they had it all in stock at 1 place!

where'd you get the coupon from?
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post #27 of 44 Old 12-17-2010, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newB24 View Post
So were you able to hold off for the 2 and 3 hours between medium coats?

Did you clean out your spray gun after each coat?
On Wednesday and Thursday I waited ~1 to 1.5 hours between coats. However the coat looked 'dry' after even just 15 min with 3 space heaters and a fan (on low).

I cleaned the gun every shot after I had "The Booger Incident". A small price to pay in terms of wasted paint and labor but I did NOT want to run into 'boogers' again. I must have scraped off 10 of those little f'ers. You may or may not be lucky w/o cleaning your gun if you spray within an hour.
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post #28 of 44 Old 12-17-2010, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by aharami View Post
where'd you get the coupon from?

it is on the screen DIY forum plus I found it on slickdeals.net


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1298847
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post #29 of 44 Old 12-17-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike 01hawk View Post
On Wednesday and Thursday I waited ~1 to 1.5 hours between coats. However the coat looked 'dry' after even just 15 min with 3 space heaters and a fan (on low).

I cleaned the gun every shot after I had "The Booger Incident". A small price to pay in terms of wasted paint and labor but I did NOT want to run into 'boogers' again. I must have scraped off 10 of those little f'ers. You may or may not be lucky w/o cleaning your gun if you spray within an hour.

ok, my painting buddy is trying to rush me and says 30 minutes will be enough with electric heaters and a fan.
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post #30 of 44 Old 12-17-2010, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by newB24 View Post

ok, my painting buddy is trying to rush me and says 30 minutes will be enough with electric heaters and a fan.

For the initial "Finish Coat", perhaps, but subsequent coats will take a bit longer to harden to the point that newly applied moisture will not re-soften the surface to the point sagging or Orange Peal might occur. 30 minutes extra under heat/Air means absolutely no worries. Less than.....?

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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