The Official Silver Fire V.2 Thread. - Page 55 - AVS Forum
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post #1621 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 05:01 AM
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Thanks a million MM. You pretty much answered all my questions. Sorry for the question overload but this way I make sure I never bug you again lol. I did add another question though (number 5), probably while you were typing up your reply to me. Hopefully you can shed some light on that whenever you come around to it.

Now let me go get that 5hr energy and hit your threads
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post #1622 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 06:13 AM
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Thanks for the quick reply MM. I may have been using the term spackling generically (and incorrectly). How do you think I should prep the underlying area? Drywall compound then sanding with the side view under lights? Would I be better served to mount something on the wall rather than the drywall? The wall itself is in pretty good condition -- just unpainted.

I'll go with the SF 2.5 N/C as recommended and post some pictures of the process as it unfolds.
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post #1623 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 09:19 AM
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I was wondering... anything wrong with using black sintra board? Was looking up sintra and just realized they come in different colors. Got me thinking why no one has ever mentioned it in black?
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post #1624 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lorddeff07 View Post
5. how many coats will I be able to make with the amount of paint I will be making following these exact measuring instructions before exhausting my paint. I know this varies from person to person but I am looking for a ballpark number. 5 coats? 8 coats? 10 coats?
6 Duster Coats....the first two are very light, the last four slightly heavier, and that should effect full coverage.

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post #1625 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Crimsont View Post
Thanks for the quick reply MM. I may have been using the term spackling generically (and incorrectly). How do you think I should prep the underlying area? Drywall compound then sanding with the side view under lights? Would I be better served to mount something on the wall rather than the drywall? The wall itself is in pretty good condition -- just unpainted.

I'll go with the SF 2.5 N/C as recommended and post some pictures of the process as it unfolds.
Well...using a substrate like SINTRA usually allows one the peace of mind knowing the surface on hand is as perfect as one could hope for.

Myself, unless the screen size exceeds what I can get out of a 60" x 120" sheet of SINTRA, I almost always opt to use it. I'm almost a Level 5 Drywall Finisher, but I also not all that eager to employ those talents if they are not necessary.

The truth being...perfection in a surface comes hard when the paint used is so capable of both providing detail and contrast that it also pinpoints defects in a surface that normally might go wholly unnoticed.

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post #1626 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lorddeff07 View Post
I was wondering... anything wrong with using black sintra board? Was looking up sintra and just realized they come in different colors. Got me thinking why no one has ever mentioned it in black?
A very large part in why / how Silver Fire can do what it does is because the surface itself is translucent. Even with the darkest versions a small amount of light passes through, and if that light hits a reflective surface, some it will add to the retention of White levels and color vibrancy.

Ahhh the days of yore....when people could acquire Acrylic Mirrors in sizes up to 60" x 120".

Light Fusion!

It is no wonder that those few experimenting with "Black Screens" have hit upon using a underlying surface of reflective mirrored Mylar, a Diffuser Film, and a covering of Black Spandex.

Results so far have been "so-so" IMHO, but do go a ways toward proving the benefit of having a reflective under-layment.

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post #1627 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
A very large part in why / how Silver Fire can do what it does is because the surface itself is translucent. Even with the darkest versions a small amount of light passes through, and if that light hits a reflective surface, some it will add to the retention of White levels and color vibrancy.

Ahhh the days of yore....when people could acquire Acrylic Mirrors in sizes up to 60" x 120".

Light Fusion!

It is no wonder that those few experimenting with "Black Screens" have hit upon using a underlying surface of reflective mirrored Mylar, a Diffuser Film, and a covering of Black Spandex.

Results so far have been "so-so" IMHO, but do go a ways toward proving the benefit of having a reflective under-layment.
I was fully in the black screen camp and did a couple of tests. It just so happens that the more and more testing that was done, the less liek a black screen the screens looked like. Yes they looked like dark grey screens,but the complexities and cost for what they were getting to me just wasn't worth it.

Then I started looking at paints, I saw paints from some guy/group called digitalcrystal but there is just something about their techniques or results that I don't trust. Like for starters, if they are that good why aren't they on here and why isn't anyone here talking about them. And damn was their "black screen" full of sparkles... so much so that you don't see the image anymore, all you see are teh sparkles. (slight exaggeration but they are unignorable)

God knows I still want a screen as dark as possible and now I am settling into making a SF8.0 screen. Everything about the SF approach just makes sense.

Immediately after reading your reply now I was actually toying with the idea of laying a perfect layer of mylar on the sintra sheet then painting on that. Guess the mylar will give better reflectivity properties than the sintra. Its just $11 anyways? Any thoughts on that? Has that been tried here before? hmmmmm... as I type I am beginning to like the idea of it more and more. This way I could go darker with more colourant but stop the increase in reflectivity materials that would ultimately lead to visibility of sparkles. So I can basically make a 5.0 reflectivity mix and add 10-12 steps of colorant, then hope that the mylar gives me the rest of the reflectivity boost I would need.

How feasible is any of this? Or is all this just bollocks??

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post #1628 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
For those afraid of mixing up colorant, how well does a $3 Behr 8oz tester color-matched to the same value as the RGBY-mix work as a colorant substitute?

Is it too high-pigment or too opaque? Seems like something well worth a shot if it hasn't already proven a failure.
Grays that are produced via Color Matching do not share the same properties as the SF Colorant's RGBY Tints mixed loosely in a Water base. Such Grays are Tints that mix to provide a "solution"...not a "suspension"

It has always been a real desire for people to substitute the Colorant for a neutral Gray, but in fact the Colorant is NOT neutral in and of itself, but when added to the Reflective / Viscosity Mix, and supplemented with Liquitex Gold produces a almost perfectly neutral combination that is at once Translucent and reflective, one whose depth of Gray shading is almost infinitely adjustable.

It's not mentioned on here much...if ever, but the core Patents (3) on the process revolve around the use of these ingredients, as well as their applications on a variety of surfaces and substrates...many of which are considered "experiments" to those delving into them, but that have been, and are in fact already proven and listed applications. Mirrors...Mylar...Clear Acrylics...White coated and White or Silver impregnated sheeting. The list is pretty extensive....but so also is Silver Fire's potential as used on such surfaces.

The real purpose behind my involvement in DIY is to provide DIY'ers alternatives...and needed assistance. This does not mean revealing every little aspect of proprietary knowledge, materials and methods....but it's pretty clear that in fact we / I have provided enough over the years to allow for DIY'ers's ideas to blossom, bear fruit...and for some, to even "discover" things that while not actually new or original, still leads them down paths that are ...or can be rewarding.

Yes...I can fixate on particular applications (...as well as Projector choices...) but I do so because I am fortunate to have the ability and opportunity to do so almost everyday...and under a variety of conditions and circumstances. That said, it's not hard to understand why I might tend to lean toward applications I know work best under such variables.

Well...leastwise where I'm sitting.

It's all good...and all about sharing.

However....it's a slippery slope to tread when one has to advise people "against" anything, or to point out how the route they've chosen is less than effective. Some are grateful. Others resentful.

All this because Ftoast asked about "color matching". Just let me say this...if it would work...I sure the 'ell wouldn't keep it from the Membership.

Nope, it works out like this. Everything needs to blend loosely*, and a certain degree of masking of reflectivity of particles must be achieved....but no more than is required lest all gains as far as conserving light received are lost.
*(this is why spraying is so advantageous...so as to distribute the paint "loosely and in layers.)

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post #1629 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 06:55 PM
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So, I got the silver fire ready to be sprayed on my test strips of TWH that have been coated with with multiple duster coatings of Valspar latex high gloss paint and primer in one, to use as a first surface reflection for a first surface white fusion, and noticed that there are a couple spots where some small particles of debris managed to get stuck in while my paint was drying. Here's some pics:





Thats my thumb in the pic to give an idea how big the particles actually are. There also appears to be a very small fiber slightly bigger then the particles up top that have dried into the paint as well.
I know when dealing with Light fusion, any sort of imperfections can keep it from obtaining proper fusion. Do i need get those particles out then spray one more coat of the gloss white paint or am i just being anal retentive about the those particles and let them be??
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post #1630 of 1642 Old 10-15-2014, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
To clarify a couple things; the idea would be to get the same color and pigment richness as the RGBY-acrylic..so I understand it wouldn't be a neutral grey (because it has to warm the otherwise cooler than neutral grey achieved with the rustoleum/poly/white) and I'd also have to assume whatever tint-mix is used would have to be at something near a 2/3's normal concentration to keep up a similar level of loose pigmentation.

Another option possibly worth considering could be a color-match where the system is restricted to only using the rgby tints instead of the primarily b&w tints that would otherwise be chosen by default. There are a couple ways this could be accurately done, so I'm sure it's possible..just not sure if it would work any better. Sounds like it should work in theory, same dyes, same ratios, same translucency..but does this equate to the same "loose-ness"? I couldn't say for sure.

^^^Does one or the other sound worthy of a shot or has it already been done?
I think what MM was trying to explain is simply this.

SF RGBY colour components may end up looking grey, but they are NOT grey. And they do not function as a grey. If you take any kind of standalone grey mix, what you have in that mix even if they are suspensions are actual grey particles. SF has RGBY particles individually in suspension in the mix. That when hit by the light the help the colors pop and helps to boost the contrast. They are however so closely packed together that they seem like grey to the naked eye.

As for the "loose'ness", that simply has everything to do with the dilution. In theory, the second option works, but there are also benefits to this being an acrylic paint.. but hey, you could also get them to mix with acrylic paints to the same ratios and everything. But that begs the question, why not just do it yourself?
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post #1631 of 1642 Old 10-16-2014, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by narhic_fd;28258090[URL="http://s591.photobucket.com/user/newdude19781/media/Mobile%20Uploads/NCM_0057.jpg.html"
[/URL]

Thats my thumb in the pic to give an idea how big the particles actually are. There also appears to be a very small fiber slightly bigger then the particles up top that have dried into the paint as well.
I know when dealing with Light fusion, any sort of imperfections can keep it from obtaining proper fusion. Do i need get those particles out then spray one more coat of the gloss white paint or am i just being anal retentive about the those particles and let them be??
Mostly anal.

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post #1632 of 1642 Old 10-16-2014, 08:38 AM
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Mostly anal.
Lol...anal it is. Now..concerning the topic few post above. I dont know which mississippiman has had to deal with most me and his loooooooooooong suffering dealing with my many questions or all the multiple post he has had to help others see the diff between his colorant and simple trying to match the same color with normal paint
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post #1633 of 1642 Old 10-16-2014, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I'm just looking for a straight answer in the form of "I tried it and it resulted in [insert short-coming here]" or "that's something that I haven't experimented with yet".

If it's the first, then I'll even delete my questioning on that topic to help un-clutter the thread a little..but if it's the second, then it certainly can't hurt anything.

Either way, stop being so darn busy all the time MM!
It's who I am.

And here's an answer.

I personally committed what amounts to heresy and tried using Liquitex's N5.0 Neutral Gray instead of the colorant.
  • First off, I had to use a disproportionate amount just to effect a sufficiently darker color change that mattered. Almost 8 oz to make a regular mix look as dark as a 2.0
  • That resulted in too much masking of the Mica particles, reducing gain to the point that it fell below 1.0.
  • The mix took on a vague blue/green Tint that required 2x as much Metallic Gold to try to counteract it.
Once in the past, after having been innundated with requests that almost amounted to demands, I tried taking a card painted with the pure, raw Colorant in to Color Match it. The Computer went nutziod and spit out several different values each time it was run. I was LMAO.

Since that time I have tried repeatedly to dissuade people from attempting such, having already "been there-done that", but sadly it seems those most determined to do it anyway were those who were also determined to try to make the SF w/ Colorant redundant, if indeed not necessary. Put another way....if any had succeeded...you'd see a very popular Thread at the top of the Listings.

Not so strangely....there ain't no such thread.

The best substitution anyone can attempt is to use a "light Neutral Gray" and add the original small amount of Silver Metallic I did when I created MMud SE (Silver Edition) 4 oz. to a 3 quart mix consisting of a 1:1:1 ratio of 32 oz White Pearl - 32 oz UPW Flat - 32 oz. Deep Base or Accent base

As noted, there wasn't a lot of Silver Metallic used. I would suppose that up to 8-10 oz might be acceptable within a "LIGHT" 96 oz NG mix

Seems a waste of time though........
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post #1634 of 1642 Old 10-16-2014, 03:59 PM
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Thanks for the thorough explanation of events, MM. I'll probably keep up at the same thing to see if anything bears fruit enough to PM you to see if said fruits are repeatable. If no fruit sprouts, then you'll be one PM less bugged and either way you'll have one less person asking the same question over and over on this thread.

Are there any good/proven alternative RGBY acrylics to the Liquitex, or are the LB's THE ones to get?

Also, it might be worth a small update to mention that HomeDepot has started carrying Rustoleum/Varathane matte, water-based polyurethane by the quart. It only identifies itself as water-based via tiny letters on the back and it still uses the standard oil-based gold labelling, so it can be hard to fish out.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.

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post #1635 of 1642 Old 10-17-2014, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Mostly anal.
Had a thought and was wondering something...I know...my thoughts can be dangerous to me, lol. If I was to take my painted TWH and sand the white gloss paint, that i painted on the TWH, with a very fine sandpaper then buffed it to make it look like a white morrow(yes..I have sanded latex gloss paint before and buffed it to resemble a mirror like finish) do you think it would offer any benefits toward my white fusion in say a brighter image or anything verses if i just rolled the gloss paint on with a smooth roller and left it as that and just sprayed silver fire on.
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post #1636 of 1642 Old 10-18-2014, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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No.

The more reflective a 1st surface is, the more coating must be applied...unless the coating is of the darkest variety.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #1637 of 1642 Old Today, 03:52 AM
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I think I am in love with the silverFire screens. They haunt my sleep now... dunno if that makes sense. But MM, would like to ask. So I have seen how a SF2.5 8.0 looks like from some shots PB put. And I recall you saying that when going darker than 7.0 or so you compensate by increasing the amount of UPW in the mix.And you keep saying once I go over 8.0 diminishing returns start to kick in. Can you tell me exactly what goes wrong if I make a hypothetical SFv2.5 10.0 mix.

And what would you say is the estimated gain in say an 8.0 mix and what do you think it would be in a 10.0/12.0 mix.

And what are the benefits of using a mirror as my 1st surface? I am thinking more along the lines of Silver acrylic/perspex mirror. In thickness of 6mm. I want to use it to replace using a sintra completely. I linked you to its page.

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post #1638 of 1642 Old Today, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lorddeff07 View Post
I think I am in love with the silverFire screens. They haunt my sleep now... dunno if that makes sense. But MM, would like to ask. So I have seen how a SF2.5 8.0 looks like from some shots PB put. And I recall you saying that when going darker than 7.0 or so you compensate by increasing the amount of UPW in the mix.And you keep saying once I go over 8.0 diminishing returns start to kick in. Can you tell me exactly what goes wrong if I make a hypothetical SFv2.5 10.0 mix.
After a point, more surface reflectivity is lost (-Gain = less foot lambert ) so one must compensate with more lumen output.

Quote:
And what would you say is the estimated gain in say an 8.0 mix and what do you think it would be in a 10.0/12.0 mix.
0.9 & 0.8 respectively, although those figures are deceptive in as much as the retention of White & Colors makes the screen look like a positive gain surface.

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And what are the benefits of using a mirror as my 1st surface? I am thinking more along the lines of Silver acrylic/perspex mirror. In thickness of 6mm. I want to use it to replace using a sintra completely. I linked you to its page.
Light Fusion. The epitome of DIY Screen performance.

Not only does Light Fusion still reside at/on the pinnacle of DIY screen-dom, it is the only real way to mitigate the effects of attenuation that a truly dark SF mix will introduce.

You've hit upon your best solution...in fact, the darkest SF screens I've made all employed 6mm Plastic "2nd Surface" Mirrors. (...not 1st Surface, they have less effect because they require more surface masking...)

Hitting even closer to home, I have done a few large Screens in London for Rugby and Soccer Club Clubhouses (...a coy name for after-hours Player's Pub ) and I am even familiar with the Jobber who you linked to. (...although they only sell in 3mm thickness and haul up shot at only 79" in length. Sadly, we here in the States cannot get Acrylic Mirrors in sizes above 2438 mm x 1219 mm ( 8' x 4' )

Here is a older link to a Thread involving one of those builds:
I'll puta "Real Bug" in your Ear. Ambient AND Direct light performance is possible.

The screen involved was only a older 130" SFv1.0 2.0 being hit with a Optoma 1691 so it in no way does it represent the potential involved in using a darker SF paint.

Light fusion collects the light that passes through the top coating and reintroduces it into the surface. A Mirror attenuates light it reflects, as does the passage through the paint, so the reflected, reintroduced light does not cause any adverse hot spotting (...if there is a properly applied thickness of SF on top...)

The darker the SF coating is the easier it is to cover the Mirror in fewer coats. Applying the SF in Duster Coat fashion is essential of course. And you really want to use 3 mm thickness if at all possible, and apply it to a flat surface using the suggested Mirror adhesive spread thinly.

The Light Fusion application has a UK Patent BTW, and was quite popular across the Pond (circa 2009/2010) until a concerted effort by a few crossed-over US individuals on the AVF Forum made it their specific goal to have it be dismissed as being ineffectual at best and misleading at worst. (...but not so strangely they never could accomplish anything near the same results, so.... ).

Stay in close touch so I / we can collaborate on your effort. I dearly miss there not being more Light Fusion projects, but most do not want to have their screen size restricted to at / under 98" diagonal.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #1639 of 1642 Old Today, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

You've hit upon your best solution...in fact, the darkest SF screens I've made all employed 6mm Plastic "2nd Surface" Mirrors. (...not 1st Surface, they have less effect because they require more surface masking...)
Wow... this all sounds really good and I feel really good about it. So let me understand this. Basically I take the 3mm thick mirror and attach it to say a 6mm thick sintra board for a total of just under 10mm. Then I apply the silverfire mix on the mirror surface? Nothing else I have to do first right?

Quote:
The darker the SF coating is the easier it is to cover the Mirror in fewer coats. Applying the SF in Duster Coat fashion is essential of course. And you really want to use 3 mm thickness if at all possible, and apply it to a flat surface using the suggested Mirror adhesive spread thinly.
Sounding even better. So with a really dark SF mix I would probably need no more than 4-5 coats? And I am guessing that the fewer coats I use in an SF Super dark FX screen the more I retain and benefit from the effect the mirror will have on this build?


Quote:
Stay in close touch so I / we can collaborate on your effort. I dearly miss there not being more Light Fusion projects, but most do not want to have their screen size restricted to at / under 98" diagonal.
My current screen size is a 100". I really don't mind going down to 98" or even 92 if I had to. I am setting it up in a living room so it being really big isn't actually practical anyways. I also want to make it an edgeless/borderless screen. and mount it in such a way that it seems to be floating off the wall. And apparently the biggest size I seem to be able to have them cut is gonna limit me to a 91" sceen.

I was considering using something like this for the mount. Been scratching my head on how best to attach the screen part of the mount to the back of the screen I make. But really want to go for something like this cause it would allow me slide the whole screen left or right and well... will just look really cool.

So going down to 98" and cranking up the brightness on my PJ are all things I am fine with. Especially if it would allow me go really really dark on the mix. But didn't you say the darker I go the more likely I would see sparkles? Besides increasing the amount of UPW in the mix is there any other way to counter this? And i have zero experience with how sparkles look in person, though I saw a bedazzled out supposed black screen on youtube from some guys called digital crystal that I want nothing to do with. I am apparently also immune to the rainbow effect so you should take that into consideration too.

Thanks so much for all the info. I think you should consider making a series of youtube videos explaining most of these things. And also how come I have never seen a single video of you painting????????

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post #1640 of 1642 Old Today, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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My Build Threads are loaded with painting Videos. Including the ones I recently sent you links for.

There are two camps concerning the need to apply a White primer coat onto a Mirror first.

I do not nor ever have. A few others have done so and reported that the white primer underlying the SF more equally distributes the reflected light and helps even further with White level retention.

I never found the original way lacking so......I have never gone there, done that. By my reasoning any extra layers of paint could only reduce the amount of effect the reintroduced light would have. But honestly...DIY'ing means experimentation so if your game....tally ho!

However.....I strongly suggest you use the original SF v2.5 w/8.0 -or 9.0 Colorant and 2x the UPW content. I can send you a bottle of the Colorant if that will help keep you on track. Just PM me with a Email and we'll go forward from there.

And dont worry about a mounting solution...I have you effectively covered in that department with a far easier and less expensive method. More on that later.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com

Last edited by MississippiMan; Today at 07:59 AM.
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Hehehehehehe......

Feel like a kid in a candy store.

Will re-open this door when I get all my ducks in a row.

Thank you so much MM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorddeff07 View Post
Hehehehehehe......

Feel like a kid in a candy store.

Will re-open this door when I get all my ducks in a row.

Thank you so much MM.
Sawrite.........

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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