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post #1651 of 1666 Old 10-21-2014, 11:25 PM
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Are the gain numbers Lorddeff posted fairly accurate (not sure if they're from a previous thread or just guesses) or, if not, do you have measurements or confident visual approximations? Also, what effect does LF VS. plain SF have on the screen's shade with no on-screen image? Does it become noticeably lighter or darker?

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post #1652 of 1666 Old 10-21-2014, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Last post before my travels start:

Those figures posted were personal approximations. But some are close if not absolutely correct.

I can look back to find my own (and PBs) figures, but since v2.5 hit the Bricks, they all rose a slight bit.

The shade of Gray/silver remains the same....only when excessive light is cast upon the screen would the LF effect (...and SF's own effect for that matter...) result in a lightening. Then again, so would / does every other dark screen in existence.

But I state this...if a SF shade starts out dark, only the focused beam from a projector will really have a great effect compared to mere "ambient" light.

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post #1653 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
And here it is !!!!

Silver Fire was specifically revamped to "v2.0" status because of the unavailability of Mirror sizes over 4' x 8'

However, Light Fusion isn't all about gain...but rather the unique aspect lent to the image by having such a depth of field created by the 1/8" gap.

So....there is good reason to use a Mirror for lighter SF versions, but when used for darker versions, "THEN" the conservation / re-application of absorbed light really becomes an advantage.
When it comes to active DLP 3D projectors, does light fusion create better 3D effect because of the increased depth of field that comes with a proper fusion???
Second, I believe i read somewhere that for the "Gap" to be any advantage it need to be at least a 1/16 inch piece of glass or plexiglass. Is that true?? And if so, do you achieve the same results of increased depth and what not then if you used a 1/8 inch thick piece of plexiglass.
Next, does it matter if you are doing mirrored light fusion or gap "white" fusion when i comes to increased depth of field?? Do they both offer depth of field. Do you loose that increase depth of field if you doing a 1st surface mirror light fusion???
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post #1654 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Answers coming later. In Charlotte Airport. Look for something very late or early AM.

.............but ya know we've discussed most of the above in the past.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #1655 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 10:48 AM
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Answers coming later. In Charlotte Airport. Look for something very late or early AM.

.............but ya know we've discussed most of the above in the past.
Hum...I dont remember discussing about light fusion and its advantage for 3D. Never mind about depth being increased rather its mirror fusion or white gap fusion. Logic tells me that that if it works for one it should work for the other. I Guess my main question is if light fusion gives a better 3D.
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post #1656 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 01:58 PM
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Hey MM, hope you had a great trip (since you would be reading this when you touchdown). Quick question.

I ws doing some reading and found out that a flat clear white surface reflects about 80% of the light that hits it. A mirror reflects around 90% and mylar reflects around 98%.

So why don't I use orca grow film instead of using a mirror? So basically I paint on the film which will be attached to a sintra board instead of painting on the mirror. Especially since what I am looking for here is bouncing back as much light from the 2nd surface as possible.

And a few things I have discovered. Unlike mylar, mirrors and retr0-reflector surfaces, orca grow is a diffuse reflective surface and not a specular reflective surface. Orca grow scatters the light that hits it in all directions. In the very same way a white painted screen will scatter light. Better yet, Orca grow reflect 94% of all light hitting it. A mirror reflects around 65% of light. Is theer a reason no one has tried this? I googled using orca grow as a white screen surface and added avs to the sech and found absolutely nothing.

Last edited by Lorddeff07; Yesterday at 06:32 PM.
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post #1657 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lorddeff07 View Post
Hey MM, hope you had a great trip (since you would be reading this when you touchdown). Quick question.

I ws doing some reading and found out that a flat clear white surface reflects about 80% of the light that hits it. A mirror reflects around 90% and mylar reflects around 98%.

So why don't I use mylar instead of using a mirror? So basically I paint on the mylar attached to a sintra board instead of painting on the mirror. Especially since what I am looking for here is bouncing back as much light from the 2nd surface as possible.
The problem with using mylar is for it to be of use you must be able to adhere it perfectly flat and without and air bubbles under the mylar..
It's been the thorn in the flesh of many of people who have tried to make use of it for a first surface light fusion or to simply attach it to the back of some plexiglass to make thier own mirror. The problem of using Mylar comes with 2 major hurdles to overcome. First, is finding a strong enough adhesive that when dries dries doesn't leave tiny particles underneath to put little goose bump looking spot on your Mylar. Any glue that dries underneath that Mylar will end up making your mylar look like tiny grains of sand are stuck underneath. As of right now the best solution is using a water based adhesive that can be diluted with water. I had great results with Elmers glue. I diluted it with 1/3 of water so that when the water dried and evaporated out it left the Mylar smooth and adhered to the TWH I glued it on. Problem though is that when your using something that diluted it didn't give a strong enough bond that i felt would have kept it from pulling the Mylar up after i tried to spray some paint on it. The longer you let the glue cure the better of a bond it did form though. I also scuffed up the TWH first with some sandpaper and felt that helped a lot in providing better adhesive. but still not strong enough. I waited 3 weeks before i tried to pull the mylar up and i still felt like it wouldn't hold down strong enough once i sprayed some duster coats on paint on it but at least i was on the right rout. Thankfully Elmers came out with a new glue called Elmers probond. Far stronger and it to can be diluted with water then spray on. I haven't had time to mess with it yet and it will be couple of weeks before i can get serious with it again.
The second problem you will run into when trying to use Mylar is the process of trying to find a way to rub down the mylar so you can push all the air bubbles but doesn't mar up your Mylar in the process. I think i figured out a way to over come that too but like before, wont be able to give it a go for few more weeks.
I've been working on adhesive solutions for it over the past couple of months and have made promising results in finding the right adhesive and still need some more time to iron out some of the hiccups. But Hey...give it a go. I could use all the help possible in coming up with a great solution. You might find a quicker and better way that will work. With that being said if you can't get that Mylar to lay perfectly flat, with a strong glue bond and to push all the air bubbles outs with out messing up the top of the mylar it wont be of much use. Also, know that with a 1st surface mirror you need more coats to mask that Hot spot and could run into the problem MississippiMan stated above.
Last, all i mentioned above is trying to work with Mylar on a flat surface like TWH or plexi white lying flat on the floor...I wouldn't want to even try tackling adhering Mylar to a vertical surface like a wall by it's self. . NO THANK YOU!!!

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post #1658 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post
\
Last, all i mentioned above is trying to work with Mylar on a flat surface like TWH or plexi white lying flat on the floor...I wouldn't want to even try tackling adhering Mylar to a vertical surface like a wall by it's self. . NO THANK YOU!!!
Yup after further reading i found out the problems with mylar and changed my post. you seem to have quoted me before i made the change lol.

Now I plan on using orca grow film, its a diffuse reflector. its practically better than mylar in every single way. And it comes in 11mm thickness which means all the issues you cited with using mylar will be non existent with the orca grow.

And what I found interesting, is that no one on avs seems to have tried using orca grow film.
here is the copy pasted gist of the film

99% Diffuse Surface: Microfiber structure creates even light distribution across material surface regardless of incident angle of light. The resulting isotropic surface luminance eliminates hot spots and does not require surface to be hung flat during installation.
- Diffuse vs. Specular and Why diffuse reflection matters.

Highly Reflective Surface: Measured at 94% reflectivity across the full visible light spectrum. ORCA Grow FilmĀ® is the highest performing reflective surface in the hydroponic industry.
- Performance comparison
- What does full visible light spectrum mean and why does it matter?

100% Light Tight.

No Color Shift or Iridescence: Light reflected from surface maintains the original color wavelength so you get the full spectrum from your lamps. (More)

Durable, puncture and tear resistance: 11 mil thick

Waterproof Washable & cleanable with common household cleaners:

Mold and algae growth resistant.

UV Protected and Stable: Blocks out harmful UV light with wavelength below 400nm, material does not yellow. (More)

Recyclable eco-friendly material containing no halogens, plasticizers or VOCs.


I will be attaching it to a sintra board before painting.

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post #1659 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Lorddeff07 View Post
Yup after further reading i found out the problems with mylar and changed my post. you seem to have quoted me before i made the change lol.

Now I plan on using orca grow film, its a diffuse reflector. its practically better than mylar in every single way. And it comes in 11mm thickness which means all the issues you cited with using mylar will be non existent with the orca grow.

And what I found interesting, is that no one on avs seems to have tried using orca grow film.
here is the copy pasted gist of the film

99% Diffuse Surface: Microfiber structure creates even light distribution across material surface regardless of incident angle of light. The resulting isotropic surface luminance eliminates hot spots and does not require surface to be hung flat during installation.
- Diffuse vs. Specular and Why diffuse reflection matters.

Highly Reflective Surface: Measured at 94% reflectivity across the full visible light spectrum. ORCA Grow FilmĀ® is the highest performing reflective surface in the hydroponic industry.
- Performance comparison
- What does full visible light spectrum mean and why does it matter?

100% Light Tight.

No Color Shift or Iridescence: Light reflected from surface maintains the original color wavelength so you get the full spectrum from your lamps. (More)

Durable, puncture and tear resistance: 11 mil thick

Waterproof Washable & cleanable with common household cleaners:

Mold and algae growth resistant.

UV Protected and Stable: Blocks out harmful UV light with wavelength below 400nm, material does not yellow. (More)

Recyclable eco-friendly material containing no halogens, plasticizers or VOCs.


I will be attaching it to a sintra board before painting.
WOW!!! It comes in white reflective surface too!!! That would be good for a "White" fusion. I don't seem to find a silver color though. If your going to use it for a mirror type fusion then you need to find some in the same color as Mylar or a mirror which is silver or else you will be doing a "White" fusion and not one that is similar to using a mirror. I could be wrong about that though, lol.. Using a white reflecting background will reintroduce white back into your top coat which isn't what a mirror or Mylar will do. The reason why the product claims such excellent light diffusion is due to the fact that it's a "white" reflective surface. When you reflect something off a white surface it spreads the reflection out..
I mess around with laser pens a lot and when i shine my laser beam on something that is a highly reflective white substrate it doesn't do a full reflect like it would with a mirror or even Mylar(for the most part)
When will you be ordering some?? I love the size that it comes in. Would give more options for those with bigger screen then the slandered 4 x 8 ft. I would also like to know how smooth the material is once you check it out. Is it smooth and free of imperfections like Mylar is?? I look forwards to your opinion on it.

Last edited by narhic_fd; Yesterday at 08:45 PM.
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post #1660 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post
WOW!!! It comes in white reflective surface too!!! That would be good for a "White" fusion. I don't seem to find a silver color though. If your going to use it for a mirror type fusion then you need to find some in the same color as Mylar or a mirror which is silver or else you will be doing a "White" fusion and not one that is similar to using a mirror. Using a white reflecting background will reintroduce white back into your top coat which isn't what a mirror or Mylar will do. When will you be ordering some?? I would like to wait to you buy to get your opinion on it...Maybe i can find some at a local hydroponics store.
yp. It only comes in white actually. You should watch some videos of it on youtube. Comparative tests between it and mylar had it bouncing off twice as much light as mylar and they showed how well it doesn't hotspot. Actually

And its even on amazon too. What I am going to try s some what crazy.

Reflective Layer
ORCA grow film which is a diffuse film and spread light evenly which will improve viewing cone and is 94% reflective. Its also cheap and will make a 100" screen easy.

Color Layer
FolkArt Black sequin Acrylic metalic paint 118ml $4 (A)+ Rustoleum Soft touch polyurethane Matte $24 (B) + Distilled water (C)
100ml (A) + 400ml (B) + 300-600ml (C)

Process
- Attach the ORCA grow film to a backing board for rigidity. Sintra
- thin the mixed paints with water until its thin enough to spray
- Apply 2-4 duster coats of the mix on the film using a spray gun.

Yes, Black paint. I am hoping to make the layer over the orca grow film as thin as possible so a lot of light still filters through and bounces back off the film back through the paint. This way the parts of the screen that should be lit will be lit. I am not using silver or any other reflective substances to avoid the appearance of sparkles in the mix considering how dark I am going. I figure since this is the first time I am making a painted screen, I'll just try and see what happens. Who knows, I may actually just end up with the darkest possible PJ screen lol.

People approach there screens from white and try and see how dark they can go to get excellent ambient light performance, I am going to start from black and see how I can make the whites and colors still pop.

Besides, it says it reflects all the colors of the visible spectrum accurately. That aside, it reflecting light back into my top coat is exactly what I am hoping for. Especially since I am making a black top coat.

And as for the when, no time soon I am afraid, I am due to move into a new place by the end of this year or early next year. All I have now is the projector. Just making sure I am ready to hit the ground running when I do move.

If it doesn't work, then I will make a silverfire 8.0/9.0 on the orca grow film.

Last edited by Lorddeff07; Yesterday at 08:58 PM.
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post #1661 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 08:57 PM
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yp. It only comes in white actually. You should watch some videos of it on youtube. Comparative tests between it and mylar had it bouncing off twice as much light as mylar and they showed how well it doesn't hotspot. Actually watch this vid

And its even on amazon too. What I am going to try s some what crazy.

Reflective Layer
ORCA grow film which is a diffuse film and spread light evenly which will improve viewing cone and is 94% reflective. Its also cheap and will make a 100" screen easy.

Color Layer
FolkArt Black sequin Acrylic metalic paint 118ml $4 (A)+ Rustoleum Soft touch polyurethane Matte $24 (B) + Distilled water (C)
100ml (A) + 400ml (B) + 300-600ml (C)

Process
- Attach the ORCA grow film to a backing board for rigidity. Sintra
- thin the mixed paints with water until its thin enough to spray
- Apply 2-4 duster coats of the mix on the film using a spray gun.

Yes, Black paint. I am hoping to make the layer over the orca grow film as thin as possible so a lot of light still filters through and bounces back off the film back through the paint. This way the parts of the screen that should be lit will be lit. I am not using silver or any other reflective substances to avoid the appearance of sparkles in the mix considering how dark I am going. I figure since this is the first time I am making a painted screen, I'll just try and see what happens. Who knows, I may actually just end up with the darkest possible PJ screen lol.

People approach there screens from white and try and see how dark they can go to get excellent ambient light performance, I am going to start from black and see how I can make the whites and colors still pop.

If it doesn't work, then I will make a silverfire 8.0/9.0 on the orca grow film.
when watching the video i couldn't tell if the Orca Film was a smooth surface or was it textured. I thought i saw a texture on the film but I'm not sure if i was looking at the material or something else. Having trouble finding some close up pics of the material.
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post #1662 of 1666 Old Yesterday, 09:31 PM
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When you get the material in would you go ahead and start a diff thread about it. I'm noticing that we are probably beginning to pull the thread in diff direction then dealing with silver fire and don't want to get the mods on us or worse.....MississippiMan ...lol
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post #1663 of 1666 Old Today, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post
When you get the material in would you go ahead and start a diff thread about it. I'm noticing that we are probably beginning to pull the thread in diff direction then dealing with silver fire and don't want to get the mods on us or worse.....MississippiMan ...lol
Yh, of course I would start another thread . I think the vinyl is smooth to the touch, the same way something like paper is smooth to he touch. But I am not certain.

I am still going to make a silverfire screen with this. The 54" x 25ft roll comes can be got for under $60. That enough for around 4 106" 16:9 screens or 2 133" 21:9 screens. So I would just be getting two sintra boards then on the first one I would paint my black mix on one half and then paint a silverfire v2.5 8.0 mix on the other half and compare them. Which ever screen performs better is what I would be using.

Personally I would actually home MM or PB says something about this. Like how they feel something like this could work with a silverfire mix and how best I should go about it.
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post #1664 of 1666 Old Today, 05:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Orca Film isn't a new revelation...it's be out there and even experimented with for at least 3-4 years. As far as it being acceptable as an alternative to Sintra. as a "whiter", more reflective underlay, it should work if it is applied completely flat.

But as far as Second Surface Fusion, one cannot, one cannot forget that the Silver / Aluminum aspect inherent in a Mirrored surface lends an enrichment of color and contrast. Anything White will only decrease White attenuation.

Also, Light Fusion (2nd surface) is known for it's "Plasma-like" glow...a radiant image. This doesn't come from it being a bright, full spectrum reflection, but rather a attenuated reflection that tends to be concentrated on deepening subtle gray scale and color saturation. When Light Fusion was simply a White, metallic enhanced coating on a Mirror, it was more basically a bright white screen...and we all know that such screens are still limited in their usage as "Dark Room Only" applications. It (Light Fusion) did not come into it's own until MMud-SE and MaxxMudd was applied. Then things really started to "Pop & Sizzle". Once Black Flame - Silver Fire was introduced, a pinnicle was reached using paint that still has not been achieved by anything else....and especially when it is combined with a 2nd surface Fusion application.

1st Surface (w/Mirror) was an attempt to more fully realize the potential of having a more reflective metallic underlay directly beneath a coating. But as stated before, the gins were not really worth the added insecurities as far as nailing it down perfectly...and considering the costs involved, certainly not cost effective from a DIY'ers's wallet viewpoint. Experiments with Mylar were very problematical, leading to Mylar's use "behind" a Clear plastic coated with paint, so there we were...back to 2nd Surface Light Fusion again.

The term "White Fusion" was coined to express the way a underlay of white does affect and assist the performance of a darker Coating. as to if it will make a substantial difference to use Orca Film behind a 1/8" or 1/16" acrylic, my guess is that if it is indeed as reflective (...or more so...) than a 2nd surface Mirror, then yeah....it should produce a "glow" as well. As to how much assist to any of the other aspects of the image that Silver or Aluminum adds, well all that lay in the experimentation and evaluation done by all ya all.

As for me....I'll be eatin' Marlin steaks and drinkin' Rum 'n Coke for the next 5 days.

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post #1665 of 1666 Old Today, 05:28 AM
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Lucky you MM. Right now I am doing ward rounds in a rotation I have zero interest in!!! Probably why I am on here lol. Its a requirement though, so I don't have much of a choice

So let me understand, you are suggesting that if orca grow is more reflective than a mirror then i could consider using it with an acrylic sheet and spray on the acrylic surface? Hmm... didn't think of that!! now I guess the question is how to attach the orca grow to the acrylic sheet.

well guess I would be experimenting with the spraying directly on the orca grow film and spraying on acrylic sheet with the film behind it. I don't think laying it flat on a backing substrate should be too hard considering how thick it is. Its over 1mm thick.

And sorry, I didn't know orca grow had been tried on here before, I did multiple google searches tagging AVS to see if it had been discussed in anyway and I kept coming up empty.

As for what effect I am trying to get? I don't know if a glow is what I am looking for. From the tests I have seen of orca grow, it shows and seems to reflect coloured light just as efficiently as it does white light. So I am not sure if it would only help with white loss. Either way, I really just need it to be something that will make up for the extremely lowered screen gain I would probably be getting for going as dark as I intend on going.

Ah well, in time I will find out. I will make paint the black screen and make at least 3 silverfire samples too.. 3.0/7.0/10.0 to see what the effect of going extremely dark on the silver fire would have on orca grow film and how that compares to my black mix.

Thanks as always for your input.
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post #1666 of 1666 Old Today, 06:53 AM
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I am slowly working my way through this thread, I think I am on page 21 where you guys are still talking about SF 2.1, so a little futher to go. I am new to the projector world. I am building a house and will have a basement that can be almost completely light controlled when wanted, but the majority of time there will be a significant amount of ambient light during parties. There will be a pool table and bar down there. The space is 18' by 40' with the screen on one end and the bar on the other with the pool table in the middle. There will be 9' ceilings and my wife won't be letting my put dark colors on the walls or ceilings.

I will have zoned recessed lighting so the lighting above the screen and seating can be turned completely off. We are having custom built-in cabinet made and I will be able to house close to 135" screen. I have the Sony HW40ES on order and plan to put it at the 13'6" distance so I can have a 110" screen with higher fL when needed and 135" screen with lower fL for complete darkness situations. My plan is to paint the entire wall in the interior area of the built in and just change the setting on the projector given the situation.

I hope that all made sense. Does what I am planning sound feasible and if so what SF should I go with? I was thinking 3.0 would be best. Thanks.

Last edited by tewilson10; Today at 06:54 AM. Reason: Added the ceiling height and wall paint.
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