The Official Silver Fire V.2 Thread. - Page 67 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 03-13-2015, 03:54 AM
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Pictures with full lights on in the living room and dark with some indirect light.
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Old 03-13-2015, 05:52 PM
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I just wanted to thank everybody for the help here, especially MississippiMan for being so helpful with good advices

Till all those tests I have done in the last days I am really beginning to understand how important a darker than white projection material in projection generally is - be it under ambientlight conditions or a totally black theater room.
Why ?

Because even when the walls do not reflect light back to the screen, there is always ambient light in the room, ALWAYS !

We ask ourself which light, if the curtains are closed, the lamps are off and the walls and ceiling are black

The answer is simple, the projector itself is the ambient light
When a projector shoots out light, this light is always present in the room and at the screen - and white material just can't absorb any of it.

And this fact will always degrade black levels and shadow detail and there is absolutely nothing we can do against this, accept to absorb light from the parts of the picture which should be black, and this can be done only with the screen itself.

The only time when a white screen in a dark room shows really good black levels is, when a high contrast projector with and added Autoiris shoots a completely black image on the screen.
If there is light in the picture, this will always wash out the black parts on the screen to a proportionally higher extent than on a darker surface.
So a screen can really boost native contrast , if it preserves the contrast of the projector as good as possible.
Not On:Off contrast - BUT intra scene or Ansi contrast.

Only a while ago, I asked myself if a grey screen is really absolutely necessary, and I thought if I can make the room as dark as possible the idea of a darker screen becomes unnecessary for me.

But after a lot of thinking and comparing, I came to the conclusion that also the light from the projector will always wash out blacks on a white screen to some extent, no matter how dark the room is.

With a darker screen the intra scene contrast raises everytime the tint of it goes darker, in EVERY condition of the world.
The problem which remains is, that our eyes need enough light on the screen to feel that whites are really white and not grey.
Our brains know how white looks and if this is to dark and dim, then the raise in contrast is not enough to please our eyes.

If we would have silent and ecofriendly 10000 Lumen projectors and combine that to a black matte screen, even in dedicated home theaters we would have a big raise in perceived intrascene contrast and shadow detail because the screen would absorb every light from the black parts of the picture and this would preserve the complete Ansi Contrast of a projector, which is high enough with today's machines and reaches up to 1000:1 with High-End DLP projectors.
Even the Sony's have about 400:1 which is enough for our brains to think black is really black in mixed scenes.

What I want to say again is, that I am very happy to better understand now the value, which a darker screen has - even in a Batcave home theater.

For me personally, the RS-MaxxMudd LL v.2.5 paint till now is the best compromise between good whites and satisfying blacks in a dark room
The silver fire for me personally uses too much silver, which I personally find too annoying with whites.
But with high ambient light levels, you don't have much choices, I also understand this and for this purpose the silver fire was made for.

I only have to find the Rust-Oleum ingredients and will be happy for a long time with the RS-MaxxMudd LL v.2.5 paint I think.

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Old 03-13-2015, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by createch2 View Post
Pictures with full lights on in the living room and dark with some indirect light.
I thought you still had to source a few items...so I hafta ask,"What Screen and PJ is in use in your image?

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Old 03-14-2015, 05:25 AM
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I thought you still had to source a few items...so I hafta ask,"What Screen and PJ is in use in your image?
It is the current setup that I am not happy with. Caparol Capamax Venato 45.
Pictures are just to get an idea about my light conditions.
edit:
PJ is the Panasonic PT AT 6000 E.

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Old 03-14-2015, 06:54 AM
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MississippiMan Can I use this Dulux color to substitute the Behr ?
The description in Amazon don't say something about Latex or water based or not, but its lumitec technology:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dulux-Ultra-...productDetails

This would be the last missing puzzle part to the Silver Fire Mix.
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Old 03-14-2015, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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MississippiMan Can I use this Dulux color to substitute the Behr ?
The description in Amazon don't say something about Latex or water based or not, but its lumitec technology:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dulux-Ultra-...productDetails

This would be the last missing puzzle part to the Silver Fire Mix.
Absolutely....it is the exact type I used last time I was in the UK painting 160" and 200" screens. It's a terribly thick paint, so it needs to be thinned separately "BEFORE" being mixed into the formula.

I would suggest doing this:

Make up the Viscosity Mix (Water & Poly) and then add the prescribed / desired amount of Dulux to that loose medium. Stir at medium speed...do not whip on high. It's best to take the measured amount and place it into a separate small container, add 25% additional Distilled / Filtered Water, hand strir until it has become noticeably looser, then pour that mix slowly into the Viscosity Mix while stirring to ensure the Dulux is completely blended.

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Old 03-21-2015, 12:14 PM
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@MississippiMan :

I asked a couple of english native speakers to get the "subtile" meaning behind the mix :

100ml - filtered/distilled water for rinsing color components from utensils

50ml - Liquitex Basics - Napthol Crimson Red
25ml - Liquitex Basics - Phthalocyanine Green
14ml - Liquitex Basics - UltraMarine Blue
10ml - Liquitex Basics - Cadmium Yellow - Deep Hue

and everybody that I asked told me, this water is just for cleaning your tools afterwards. Is this right? If so, why is it an exact amount of 100ml?
Or is that water added to the mix?

If it's just for cleaning, I'd recommend to list it separately?
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Old 03-21-2015, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by createch2 View Post
@MississippiMan :

I asked a couple of english native speakers to get the "subtile" meaning behind the mix :

100ml - filtered/distilled water for rinsing color components from utensils

50ml - Liquitex Basics - Napthol Crimson Red
25ml - Liquitex Basics - Phthalocyanine Green
14ml - Liquitex Basics - UltraMarine Blue
10ml - Liquitex Basics - Cadmium Yellow - Deep Hue

and everybody that I asked told me, this water is just for cleaning your tools afterwards. Is this right? If so, why is it an exact amount of 100ml?
Or is that water added to the mix?

If it's just for cleaning, I'd recommend to list it separately?
It IS added to the colorant mix.
The idea is that you'll be making sure you don't leave too much paint behind on the measuring tools and you already want the colorant mix to be thinned with 100ml water anyway, so this completes both at once.

Measure the colorant while rinsing the measures in 100ml-water, then add the 100ml water to the ~100ml mix to get about 200ml of properly thinned colorant. You use the thinned colorant when deciding how many ounces you'll add to the SilverFire..otherwise it'll turn out thicker and darker then recommended.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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Old 03-22-2015, 11:46 PM
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One Stop Post

It is around 1 year and a half since I started on my quest to paint a screen.

One failed attempt (very minimal paint used) and one spray gun binned. I finally have one of the guns recommended in this thread. I have read every page and created about 20 different favorites with all the info required to get myself going.

I have the paint. All mixxed and ready to go. I just need to strain it. I have taped and plastic sheeted off my room ready to paint. I have watched videos. I have re-red all 60 pages of this thread over several weeks.

I still don't feel confident. As though there is something I am going to miss. Has anyone put all the info into one nice little post or page? I couldn't find it. I have one or two vidoes but I see others talk about such and such video you have to watch before spraying but could never find it. If someone has put all this in one spot can you please point me to it? If they havn't I am going to try put everything I have collected together in a post then see if others have more to add. I can't seem to find a few of mountain mans videos.
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Old 03-23-2015, 05:08 AM
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It IS added to the colorant mix.
The idea is that you'll be making sure you don't leave too much paint behind on the measuring tools and you already want the colorant mix to be thinned with 100ml water anyway, so this completes both at once.

Measure the colorant while rinsing the measures in 100ml-water, then add the 100ml water to the ~100ml mix to get about 200ml of properly thinned colorant. You use the thinned colorant when deciding how many ounces you'll add to the SilverFire..otherwise it'll turn out thicker and darker then recommended.
Thanx, now I understand.

I have a couple of additional questions before I start, and sorry, I am a complete noob in terms of painting:

- about the gain level / SF hue: I have to deal with a pretty amount of ambient light during daytime when the living room is not shaded, on the other side I want to have the picture as bright as possible for 3D movies (Pana 8000 with shutter glasses) during nighttimes (living room can be shaded to complete darkness)
- the current screen surface is coated with Capamaxx interior paint (grey, venato 45). Is it recommended to sand it completely off and prime a white surface before I start with the silver fire coating? Or just sanding to get a baby skin surface?
- is it better to coat the surface if its laying on a table surface (horizontal) or better hang it on a wall to have it vertical? Think for handling the spray gun its better to have it vertical?
- gonna buy a Wagner 585 flexio to do the job. From a couple of threads here I collected the Info that the "detail" gun is the best choice, is that right/still valid?
- how many coats are required?
- once the SF mix is prepared, how long can I store it? and how to store? My plan is to wait some hours / a day between each coat.
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Old 03-23-2015, 06:35 AM
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Thanx, now I understand.

I have a couple of additional questions before I start, and sorry, I am a complete noob in terms of painting:
SF doesn't really lose much gain as it gets darker because it keeps enough metallic to compensate, but going darker than SF"6" isn't usually recommended..SF 4 (4ounces of colorant mix used) is most commonly recommended for keeping above 1.0gain and fighting a good deal of light.

It's best if you can sand the surface decently smooth and then coat it with white primer. Then doublecheck that the primer is smooth (sanding if necessary).
Spraying will be much easier onto a vertical surface (it's nearly impossible to get a good, smooth motion if you have to bend forward over the surface while painting)..you're right about that.

The detail gun using a thin needle (1.0-1.5) will still be valid.

It should be applied as about 8 light duster coats.
Because the coats are so thin, it will dry very fast and you should only need at most 45-60minutes between coats and often MUCH less (closer to 15-20minutes).
It will also look pretty bad/patchy for the first several coats until it starts to really fill-in.

You should be able to store it in most air-tight containers, just make sure to strain it before each use.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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Old 03-23-2015, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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createch2,

All the above is pretty much correct, but here are some refinements. (...just a few )


  • If your buying "New", unless for some reason you only want the Wagner, get this:
http://www.amazon.com/1000ml-Electri...iglink20246-20

  • I suggest SF v2.5 2.0 because the use of Rust-Oleum Silver makes the initial Reflective base proportionately darker to start. Lately I have been using SF 2.5 w/NC for just that reason.
  • If you do decide to go darker, offset the increased metallic content by adding an additional 3 oz White for every oz of Colorant. The White is for particle masking...it will not overly lighten the mix.
  • The goal is to fight Ambient Light, not Sunlight...unless you have a real light cannon PJ. The Panny 8K is bright, but not insanely so.
  • Simply try to "mute" any window oriented light during the day. Your images show this to be at least possible.
  • Absolutely sand the original Paint to "Baby Butt" smoothness, then spray on at least 4 coats of thinned Dusted Primer (great practice)
  • Sand "Lightly" after the 3rd Coat of Primer, apply the 4th coat and check for smoothness. (tip: Keep the Gun at 12" distance and use a 70% overlap on each pass. "Only Drop the height of your fist" )
  • The timing for Duster Coats to dry is dependent upon room conditions. With elevated heat and a Fan: 15 min. None? 30-45 min. If the surface feels "cool" to the touch, not "dry" ....it's still too damp.
  • After the 4th coat, drying times can increase due to build-up of paint and retention of moisture. Never rush a coat...waiting is best.
  • A very light sanding after the 5th Finish Coat to a "BB" smoothness really helps prevent accumulated texture.
  • ALL Sanding should be done using a Large Surface, Sanding Sponge "Fine Grit". (22.8 cm x 10 cm) and very light, sweeping strokes. If Sand Paper is used, use a Sanding Block and extremely light pressure.
  • Painting is complete when a appearance of total fill in is achieved. That can be as soon as 7 coats with a perfectly done regimen.
  • Rinse the Gun after every 2nd Coat for maximum spraying efficiency, unless your using elevated heat fan with shortened Drying times (15 min) then every 3 coats is sufficient.


When stored in a airtight container (preferably plastic) SF will keep indefinitely. Due to the water content, it will separate, so re-mixing is required even after a day, (...or even a few hours...) and as mentioned above, re-straining will help avoid any clumps that might form from plugging up the Gun's needle assembly.
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Old 03-23-2015, 09:09 AM
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MississippiMan, when you mention using 3oz additional FlatWhite per 1oz of colorant, does that start counting such that a SF"4" (4oz colorant) would add 12oz of additional white?

If so, have you had a chance to experiment with cutting down the amount of SterlingSilver added per ounce of colorant (typically for each 1oz colorant, you add 1oz SterlingSilver and 1oz PearlWhite)?
I'm wondering if instead of adding:
1oz Pearl
1oz Sterling
3oz FlatWhite
Per 1oz colorant

What if it you only added:
0.5-1oz Pearl
Per 1oz colorant?

Or even omit the added extra metallic per colorant ounce (both pearl and SterlingSilver) altogether?

Instead of adding and then matting extra metallic, you'd simply be adding less metallic..
If it turns out to be equally friendly as additional matting for the darker versions, it'll leave less steps for users to potentially forget while still being optional for those requiring additional metallic.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 03-23-2015 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 03-23-2015, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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No...keeping the ratio of SM up is important, otherwise the White would overly lighten the mix, and (contrast enhanced) specular gain would be reduced.

We've shown many times that lighter SF mixes still proportionately enhance contrast / black levels at all lighting levels, but when real ambient light performance must be considered above all else, as you already know, the surface must start out with a dark enough hue that incoming light is counteracted against. And that "darkness" is best introduced via the hue of the Silver Metallic's base, as well as the actual "Black" elements that the polished coating on the Mica introduces. Of course adding white also masks a larger portion of the SM elements, and that will actually reduce gain a bit....but overly as much as reducing the percentage of the SM would.

It's all about the balancing act between having enough Gain and the maintenance of Black levels, while not crushing Whites and/or drastically reducing viewing cone.

I've always said it's easy to steer a painted app toward one extreme or the other....been there, done that...all the way out to a 4.0+ gain SF v2.5 8.0 .....but along with that sort of darkness and gain combined came the usual expected caveats. And while for some, achieving better ambient light performance with a painted solution that parallels that of a BD 1.4 screen seems perfectly acceptable, I simply cannot advocate the use of a application that offers up noticeable granulation artifacts and a viewing cone restricted to at/under 60 degrees off center.

Older apps such as DDog's Auto Paint screens, and the erstwhile Canadian Gray all used disproportionate amounts of Reflective elements (CG used "Interference Particles") and the end results were as expected....extremely narrow viewing cones with "Lazer-like" brightness.

Literally, they were "Flash in the Pan" applications that very few attempted, and even fewer had any real successes with.

The current trending toward multi-layered "diffusion based" screens hold some promise, but excepting the "Zebra"...which itself is to be considered a non-starter really...plagued with the typical QC issues and performance lags....we still must wait until the "Full Sized" Jury of Peers who actually have tried it comes back in.

Nothing ill intended in this next comment toward anyone, but it's a well known fact that any Developer of such avant guarde applications is too easily enamored with his own results, and tends to overstate their effectiveness. Hey....I was considered deep within that Company of fellows at one time, but the many SF end users who have validated SF's true attributes effectively squashes such comparisons. Mostly.

The best thing for all of us is have more choices....so you won't find me dismissing any valid potential application. I'm just a bit more pragmatic than the usual Gung Ho member as far as jumping too quickly to believe the results are quite as good overall based on the sole determination of the original Developer.

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Old 03-23-2015, 10:35 AM
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Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting changing the initial 20oz SterlingSilver and 20oz Pearl..just the additional 1+1oz of additional sterling+pearl that accompanies each oz of colorant.

Instead of using 4oz of matte ingredient (1oz colorant + 3oz white) and 2oz metallic (1oz sterling + 1oz pearl) you'd keep the same ratio of 2:1 by just using the 1oz colorant and only adding 0.5oz of metallic.

That should keep gain and shades the same (particularly since you mentioned the additional white doesn't lighten the mix notably, so leaving it out shouldn't darken it likewise).

Because SF 2-4 is about as dark as it typically goes, leaving the additional metallic out would only lose 1-2oz at that same ratio...if that makes sense.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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Old 03-23-2015, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse7 View Post
It is around 1 year and a half since I started on my quest to paint a screen.

One failed attempt (very minimal paint used) and one spray gun binned. I finally have one of the guns recommended in this thread. I have read every page and created about 20 different favorites with all the info required to get myself going.
Well then...which Gun is it that you have?

Quote:
I have the paint. All mixxed and ready to go. I just need to strain it. I have taped and plastic sheeted off my room ready to paint. I have watched videos. I have re-red all 60 pages of this thread over several weeks.

I still don't feel confident. As though there is something I am going to miss. Has anyone put all the info into one nice little post or page? I couldn't find it. I have one or two vidoes but I see others talk about such and such video you have to watch before spraying but could never find it. If someone has put all this in one spot can you please point me to it? If they havn't I am going to try put everything I have collected together in a post then see if others have more to add. I can't seem to find a few of mountain mans videos.
I can make it easier for you by PM'ing you my Phone number and doing a quick walk through. It will be easier for me as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting changing the initial 20oz SterlingSilver and 20oz Pearl..just the additional 1+1oz of additional sterling+pearl that accompanies each oz of colorant.

Instead of using 4oz of matte ingredient (1oz colorant + 3oz white) and 2oz metallic (1oz sterling + 1oz pearl) you'd keep the same ratio of 2:1 by just using the 1oz colorant and only adding 0.5oz of metallic.

That should keep gain and shades the same (particularly since you mentioned the additional white doesn't lighten the mix notably, so leaving it out shouldn't darken it likewise).

Because SF 2-4 is about as dark as it typically goes, leaving the additional metallic out would only lose 1-2oz at that same ratio...if that makes sense.
Ow.

After having a bit of a knock in the head late last month (resulting in a pretty bad concussion) somehow all that has my head kinda spinnin' (no foolin' ) I still cannot risk driving, and ladder work and stooping is out due to persistent bouts with vertigo. I can type....and kinda do so somewhat coherently, but honestly, by the very nature of the injury such "deep thinking" can escape me.

.....and no wise cracks from the gallery, please.

Such changes are always possible, and with SF pretty easily accommodated. All that is really in question is how such changes would affect appearance and performance. I cannot in good conscience advocate that someone try any such changes without either myself or some willing soul doing so beforehand and evaluating such for viability. But the flexibility is there.

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Old 03-23-2015, 01:52 PM
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Well then...which Gun is it that you have?



I can make it easier for you by PM'ing you my Phone number and doing a quick walk through. It will be easier for me as well.

http://www.amazon.com/1000ml-Electri...iglink20246-20

This, though not sure I can post links.

Thanks for the PM, waiting on a step down transformer before I can start I will be giving it a go this week and will make contact before I do.
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Old 03-23-2015, 02:38 PM
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Sounds a lot of work but I will get this done that way. Its a good help to have your step by step instructions !

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
  • If your buying "New", unless for some reason you only want the Wagner, get this:
http://www.amazon.com/1000ml-Electri...iglink20246-20
Spray gun: its not that easy, the suggested gun doesn't ship to Germany, so I'll go with the wagner flexio (got an option for a pre owned gun, I suppose the 'detail' gun is not used).
I have to do they spray job in my garage, we have no chance to cover the whole living room while our 2 years old son is around. So I have enough time between the coats.

I'll go for the 2.0 mix as suggested.

Sanding (initial / between the coats): Can I do it with a machine like this (sanding paper 320)? http://www.amazon.com/400-AE-Expert-...ords=bosch+pex
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Old 03-23-2015, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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If you must use a Wagner, you do want to use the Detail Head, because it has the smallest needle.

If you really want the other Gun, arrangements to obtain and ship to Germany are easily enough done. It just takes a little bit of extra doing.

The difference between a 1.5/1.6 mm needle assembly on a Wagner, and the 1.0 mm needle on the Amazon Gun is pretty significant.

Do not even try using a Orbital Sander on a Screen's finished surface.

Just get a Flat Sanding Tool w/ Handle, or Wood Block with rounded edges and use 200 grit / 300 grit paper and use very light pressure doing wide, sweeping strokes

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Old 03-23-2015, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by createch2 View Post
Sounds a lot of work but I will get this done that way. Its a good help to have your step by step instructions !



Spray gun: its not that easy, the suggested gun doesn't ship to Germany, so I'll go with the wagner flexio (got an option for a pre owned gun, I suppose the 'detail' gun is not used).
I have to do they spray job in my garage, we have no chance to cover the whole living room while our 2 years old son is around. So I have enough time between the coats.

I'll go for the 2.0 mix as suggested.

Sanding (initial / between the coats): Can I do it with a machine like this (sanding paper 320)? http://www.amazon.com/400-AE-Expert-...ords=bosch+pex
I just bought that Gun and I am in NZ. It has free shipping on it. I used borderlinx to get it to nz. Sign up ship it to borderlinx. Ship to NZ. Arrived within a week of purchase on amazon. The shipping was around the same price as the gun but I could not get anything comparable in price in NZ or other guns that shipped to nz.
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Old 03-23-2015, 11:34 PM
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I'd also need a power adapter.
MM is the wagner flexio a bad choice if I have no option to use your suggested gun?
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Old 03-24-2015, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by createch2 View Post
I'd also need a power adapter.
MM is the wagner flexio a bad choice if I have no option to use your suggested gun?
I bought one of those too. Cost around $70 US. I figure I will have use for it for other things maybe. A bit annoying but I don't really want to take chances with the gun.

Last edited by Jesse7; 03-24-2015 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 03-24-2015, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd also need a power adapter.
MM is the wagner flexio a bad choice if I have no option to use your suggested gun?
Here's a "Spray Gun History" that might go a ways toward helping you and others understand the differences between good/better/best.

I used the original Wagner Control Spray for a couple years after at least two years of dealing with the hassle of a full fledged HVLP/Pressure Tank/Hose rig that used a 2.2 mm Needle. The Wagner CS had a 1.6 mm tip, the same as what they call a "Detail Head" these days.

The conventional HVLP rig would certainly shoot out paint that was heavier bodied than what I advocate with thinning, but with thicker paint comes a rougher finish, and more chances that excessive paint can be laid down resulting in runs or sagging, or in the least excessive Orange Peal texture.

It was the advent of S-I-L-V-E-R, a very loose and watery mix that brought about the need for "Dusting"...and the resulting smoother finish made the transition to thinning other paints pretty much a no-brainer. However with such thinning also came increased risk of those Runs, so the speed and distance used in Dusting increased.

But...the increase in distance / speed also led to a vaguely "coarse" surface because the paint was actually drying in mid-air between the Gun and the surface. So it became necessary to very carefully maintain just the right distance and speed.

And all this because the Wagner required such.

Of course the advantages of the Wagner Control Spray made much of all that fuss worthwhile.
  • Affordability
  • Ease of use and Cleaning
  • NO TANK
  • NO WATER in the air supply
  • NO RUST in the air supply
  • NO long Air Hose
The only real issue being that the Gun simply had to used carefully to get the most optimal end results.

Then.........Wagner changed the game rules. Listening to feedback from Customers who complained that the original Gun just could not spray un-thinned Latex, the brought out the "Double Duty" version that had a 2.5 mm Tip and slightly increased Air Flow.

So yeah...now you could paint your Daughter's room Pink....but as far as spraying a Screen....forgetabowdit. The DD was almost as bad as Wagner's "Dump Guns" that threw out clouds of paint. I myself bought a DD model, as well as a couple "Plus's" and "Max's" (separate Turbines w/longish Hoses) but I ALWAYS used the spray Heads off my original Control Sprays. And...with the more powerful separate Turbine units, the atomization of the paint was increased, and spraying times per coat dropped to at/under 1 minute. Plus...it was a relief to not have to hold the Turbine Motor / Gun / Paint Cup unit in my hand at arm's length anymore...just the Gun / Paint Cup.

That is the way things stood for another 2-3 years until the venerable "No Name HVLP" Gun came around (...a Graco 2900 sold as a un-badged unit ) It was inexpensive (>$60.00) had a separate Turbine, a nice long Hose, and inter-changable "Metal" Needles" from 2.2 mm down to 1.0 mm
(I have 2 )

For another 3 years the NN/Graco 2900 was the go-to Sprayer. Then the supply dried up. Now Graco has the 2901 but it costs $119.00 so it's not catching the DIY world on fire, (...although I also own one and it is the "BOMB" using the accessory 1.0 mm needle...) and that means a lot of Folks are going back to various Wagners...which still require a Detail head in the very least to get acceptable results.

But.............................along comes the most recent entry:
Amazon.com: 1000ml Electric HVLP Air Spray Gun Kit 600W Motor Paint Sprayer 1.0mm Nozzle DIY: Home Improvement
......a rig that comes with the much preferred 1.0 mm Metal needle, as well as a completely Metal Gun. Additional larger needles can be purchased so it too can be up-converted to spray much thicker paints. (...and I own one o'dose as well... )

But golly gee wiz...the critter cost less than $60.00 and although you do have to sling the Turbine over a Shoulder using a Strap, it's performance and price plants is squarely in the realm of both the needed affordability and ease of use that lazy, cheapskate DIY'ers demand.

In the end, you get the performance and end results the Gun you choose can deliver, combined with one's own adeptness in spray technique / mix assembly. Choose the right Gun and 75% of the battle is won.

With today's high resolution PJs and far better Contrast specifications (...even the lowly w1070's contrast trumps $5000.00 PJs of 10 years ago...) the need / demand for a ultra smooth, texture free surface is paramount to being a absolute requirement. Correctly sprayed DIY screens have been "4K Ready" since 2006 using the correct spray technique and a decent HVLP rig.

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Old 03-24-2015, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Here's a "Spray Gun History" that might go a ways toward helping you and others understand the differences between good/better/best.

I used the original Wagner Control Spray for a couple years after at least two years of dealing with the hassle of a full fledged HVLP/Pressure Tank/Hose rig that used a 2.2 mm Needle. The Wagner CS had a 1.6 mm tip, the same as what they call a "Detail Head" these days.

The conventional HVLP rig would certainly shoot out paint that was heavier bodied than what I advocate with thinning, but with thicker paint comes a rougher finish, and more chances that excessive paint can be laid down resulting in runs or sagging, or in the least excessive Orange Peal texture.

It was the advent of S-I-L-V-E-R, a very loose and watery mix that brought about the need for "Dusting"...and the resulting smoother finish made the transition to thinning other paints pretty much a no-brainer. However with such thinning also came increased risk of those Runs, so the speed and distance used in Dusting increased.

But...the increase in distance / speed also led to a vaguely "coarse" surface because the paint was actually drying in mid-air between the Gun and the surface. So it became necessary to very carefully maintain just the right distance and speed.

And all this because the Wagner required such.

Of course the advantages of the Wagner Control Spray made much of all that fuss worthwhile.
  • Affordability
  • Ease of use and Cleaning
  • NO TANK
  • NO WATER in the air supply
  • NO RUST in the air supply
  • NO long Air Hose
The only real issue being that the Gun simply had to used carefully to get the most optimal end results.

Then.........Wagner changed the game rules. Listening to feedback from Customers who complained that the original Gun just could not spray un-thinned Latex, the brought out the "Double Duty" version that had a 2.5 mm Tip and slightly increased Air Flow.

So yeah...now you could paint your Daughter's room Pink....but as far as spraying a Screen....forgetabowdit. The DD was almost as bad as Wagner's "Dump Guns" that threw out clouds of paint. I myself bought a DD model, as well as a couple "Plus's" and "Max's" (separate Turbines w/longish Hoses) but I ALWAYS used the spray Heads off my original Control Sprays. And...with the more powerful separate Turbine units, the atomization of the paint was increased, and spraying times per coat dropped to at/under 1 minute. Plus...it was a relief to not have to hold the Turbine Motor / Gun / Paint Cup unit in my hand at arm's length anymore...just the Gun / Paint Cup.

That is the way things stood for another 2-3 years until the venerable "No Name HVLP" Gun came around (...a Graco 2900 sold as a un-badged unit ) It was inexpensive (>$60.00) had a separate Turbine, a nice long Hose, and inter-changable "Metal" Needles" from 2.2 mm down to 1.0 mm
(I have 2 )

For another 3 years the NN/Graco 2900 was the go-to Sprayer. Then the supply dried up. Now Graco has the 2901 but it costs $119.00 so it's not catching the DIY world on fire, (...although I also own one and it is the "BOMB" using the accessory 1.0 mm needle...) and that means a lot of Folks are going back to various Wagners...which still require a Detail head in the very least to get acceptable results.

But.............................along comes the most recent entry:
Amazon.com: 1000ml Electric HVLP Air Spray Gun Kit 600W Motor Paint Sprayer 1.0mm Nozzle DIY: Home Improvement
......a rig that comes with the much preferred 1.0 mm Metal needle, as well as a completely Metal Gun. Additional larger needles can be purchased so it too can be up-converted to spray much thicker paints. (...and I own one o'dose as well... )

But golly gee wiz...the critter cost less than $60.00 and although you do have to sling the Turbine over a Shoulder using a Strap, it's performance and price plants is squarely in the realm of both the needed affordability and ease of use that lazy, cheapskate DIY'ers demand.

In the end, you get the performance and end results the Gun you choose can deliver, combined with one's own adeptness in spray technique / mix assembly. Choose the right Gun and 75% of the battle is won.

With today's high resolution PJs and far better Contrast specifications (...even the lowly w1070's contrast trumps $5000.00 PJs of 10 years ago...) the need / demand for a ultra smooth, texture free surface is paramount to being a absolute requirement. Correctly sprayed DIY screens have been "4K Ready" since 2006 using the correct spray technique and a decent HVLP rig.
So just out of curiosity...is this you recommending people to buy this sprayer? Have you used it yet? How does it compare to what you were using previously in regards to the end result of your SF screens? I've been very curious to know your thoughts on this sprayer because it's been my only experience ever using a sprayer and I have nothing to compare it to.
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Old 03-24-2015, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I bought it to use it...not just to suggest it. At the first initial glance it appeared to have everything needed except a long hose. It certainly has the power, and it's Gun construction is the best of the lot of inexpensive Airless HVLP Guns.

And with properly thinned, filtered paint, it lays down a very smooth and precise pattern.

Now I haven't had is for too long, and only have used it twice, but it works as hoped for.

Would I continue to use it over my existing Wagner / Graco hybrid rig? (Control Spray Max Turbine- Dual Wagner/Graco Hose spline'd together to create a 35'er - Graco 3500 Spray head w/1.0 mm Needle )

No. Because the Control Spray Max packs a big wallop as far as CFM air flow....and I like my extra long combo hose, because the distance the air supply has to travel between the Turbine and the Gun helps keep the air cooler exiting from the Gun. That makes the paint go on a bit looser, and also keeps heat within the Gun assembly down low enough that the paint doesn't tend to dry inside the Gun and Needle assembly between the 2-3 coats I apply between rinsing out the Gun. Another benefit is that I can place the Turbine well away from my work area, both reducing noise as well as keeping the air supply into the Turbine's Filter much cleaner.

But....my hybrid would cost a DIY'er at minimum $200.00+ to duplicate. If I thought it would float, I'd have a separate Thread dedicated to people making that Hybrid. For me, what with me doing screens all the time, it is what would be considered a truly proffesional set up. Powerful...dependable...easy to use....guaranteed results.

But damn...it just plain cost too much!

That is why I have previously advocated the Graco 2900 / 3500 units...they have longer Hoses, Metal Needles, and you can purchase needles in sizes between 1.0 mm up to the stock 2.5 mm. The "No Name" Graco used to be available for $50.00 or less, making it an absolute DIY'ers dream.

But now that it's gone the replacement Graco 2901 comes in at $119.00 plus another $25.00 or so for the 1.0 needle conversion kit (direct from Wagner/Graco Inc....yeah, they have merged...) But it is still the No.1 rig of choice.

No. 2? The one I recently posted about above

No. 3? Any Wagner Control Spray that can use the interchangeable Detail Head.

The biggest issue I still have with the Wagner is that the paint must be thinned to match the Wagner's particular out put, and also the Dusting must be absolutely perfect, and even then, the need to sand down a finish coat (5th) and then apply at least 2 more very light, quickly applied Dusters adds a level of difficulty some DIY'ers find a bit too much.

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Old 03-24-2015, 09:41 PM
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Getting ready to pain this weekend here is some before pics. I plan to paint the entire wall but I am seeing if I have enough paint first. If I dont I will do a black border instead.

-Pre painting Masking Done. Is this enough? I didn't cover the room/overhang which is about 1 meter above the top of my screen.

Before pics:
-How it looks at night no light. On plain grey/white painted wall
-How it looks during the day on plain grey/white painted wall.
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Old 03-25-2015, 01:01 AM
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Getting ready to pain this weekend here is some before pics. I plan to paint the entire wall but I am seeing if I have enough paint first. If I dont I will do a black border instead.

-Pre painting Masking Done. Is this enough? I didn't cover the room/overhang which is about 1 meter above the top of my screen.

Before pics:
-How it looks at night no light. On plain grey/white painted wall
-How it looks during the day on plain grey/white painted wall.
Looking forward to the after photos. After a significant delay in my theater plans, I'm back at it and the screen will get primer this week before I go out of state.

As for your masking, cover everything you don't want any paint getting on (namely tops of nearby surfaces). When I sprayed the ceiling in my room, a black film was significant on everything even two rooms away. I didn't care too much as I already knew I was tearing apart those rooms anyway, but it can be a shock to someone unfamiliar with spraying.
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Old 03-25-2015, 07:09 AM
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Just noticed that I ordered too less amount of Poly. Grrr.
This leads me to double check my mix amounts. Sorry for repeating stupid questions, but I better double check before I make a mistake:

Silver Fire 2 - mix hue 2.0

Viscosity components:
16 oz. Polyurethane + 24 to 36 Water
Reflective Base:
21 oz Rustoleum white pearl
21 oz. Rustoleum Silver
10 oz. Dulux Ultra white matte*
1.75 oz. Liquitex Gold
Colorant (mixed seperately):
100 ml Water
50ml Liquitex Napthol Crimson Red
25 ml Liquitex Phthalocyanine Green
14 ml Liquitex Ultra Marine Blue
10 ml Liquitex Cadmium Yellow

Then mix Viscosity components and Reflective Base into one big can.
Then add 2.0 oz of the colorant mix to the big can.

Is this right or have I missunderstood the colorant scheme?
* I am confused by your earlier description to add the white to the viscosity mix and add 25% more Water. 25% more of the existing 24-36oz or 25% of the 10 oz. Dulux amount?

Last edited by createch2; 03-25-2015 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 03-25-2015, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Getting ready to pain this weekend here is some before pics. I plan to paint the entire wall but I am seeing if I have enough paint first. If I dont I will do a black border instead.

-Pre painting Masking Done. Is this enough? I didn't cover the room/overhang which is about 1 meter above the top of my screen.
Getting ready to "pain" eh? Let's hope it's not gonna be THAT bad !

Better to cover the overhang to prevent any spray dust from trying to stick. Thin Plastic is cheap. Elbow grease comes at a premium.

And the advice to spread thin plastic over the adjacent areas is well given. While they say "Little or no over spray" what they mean is no horrible amount of "wet" spray going where your not aiming. The nature of a HVLP gun is to fully atomize as much of the paint with air as possible...but do so at the lowest possible pressure. So that means that what you do get is a dry dust that still can spread out and collect on surfaces.

That is why they call them "HVLP" (High Volume / Low Pressure)

Using some really thin 0.7 mil 9x12 plastic sheets (2 @ $2.99 ) you can pretty much cover the world, and when do simply wad it all up in a small Ball and toss it all away.

Lastly, pull the sides out to at least 4'-5' off the wall. Myself, using Thumbtacks, I always hang a "drape" from Ceiling to floor at the rear that also overlaps the sides. Even with all that there will be some dust intrusion outside the "tent" so that is why covering Tables and Furniture simply decreases the clean up at the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by createch2 View Post
Just noticed that I ordered too less amount of Poly. Grrr.
This leads me to double check my mix amounts. Sorry for repeating stupid questions, but I better double check before I make a mistake:
Unless you only ordered a 1/2 pint, how did you get "too little"?

Quote:
Silver Fire 2 - mix hue 2.0

Viscosity components:
16 oz. Polyurethane + 24 to 36 Water
Reflective Base:
21 oz Rustoleum white pearl
21 oz. Rustoleum Silver
10 oz. Dulux Ultra white matte*
1.75 oz. Liquitex Gold
Colorant (mixed seperately):
100 ml Water
50ml Liquitex Napthol Crimson Red
25 ml Liquitex Phthalocyanine Green
14 ml Liquitex Ultra Marine Blue
10 ml Liquitex Cadmium Yellow

Then mix Viscosity components and Reflective Base into one big can.
Then add 2.0 oz of the colorant mix to the big can.

Is this right or have I missunderstood the colorant scheme?
Nope...your all good.

Quote:
* I am confused by your earlier description to add the white to the viscosity mix and add 25% more Water. 25% more of the existing 24-36oz or 25% of the 10 oz. Dulux amount?
The Dulux Ultimate White (Lumitec Tec) is VERRRRY thick so I was suggesting it be thinned first....by itself....using an additional amount of water equal to 25% of the total "existing" amount of water in the mix. Using say...30 oz of water as a guide, 25% of that would mean adding 7.5 oz to 10 oz of the Dulux.

If that seems excessive....then try just adding 5 oz first, and note as to if the Dulux now pours easily instead of "plops" out in a gooey, sludgy clump.

If you try to mix the un-thinned Dulux directly into anything except water (or water / poly ) first you will be stirring for quite some time.

If you are using a Gun that has a 1.5 or 1.6 mm needle, then you still must have a thin mix to allow for a smooth even flow out the gun, and to have the Gun be able to draw up the paint through the feeder tube. Using a 1.0 mm needle simply means the mix must be a bit thinner still.

The thinnest it should ever have to be is something like Tomato Soup, and when you pull out your Stirring Tool, the paint should pour off the Tool in a stream...not slide or ooze. And when straining, it should barely pool in the bottom of the straining Net, then continue to flow through at the same rate you pour at.

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Old 03-25-2015, 12:15 PM
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Any recommendation for the mesh width of the strainer?
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