The Official Silver Fire V.2 Thread. - Page 68 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2011 of 2036 Old 03-25-2015, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by createch2 View Post
Any recommendation for the mesh width of the strainer?
Hopefully you can find the Nylon "Sock" style, 1 Gallon Can Size.

If not, a Sheer Nylon Stocking works well. (...leave your Lady's Fish Net Stockings alone !!! )

Most "Cone" strainers are either too "big" hole-wise....or much too fine a grid.

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post #2012 of 2036 Old 03-25-2015, 12:48 PM
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Unfortunately, the link from the thread post #1 to the strainers is broken. So I have no comparision what I have to look for.
Reason for asking is that I fear to filter out the silver particles if the strainer is too narrow. I am not in the socks business, and I think even there are big differences?
I was in a shop for professional painter today and they have different mesh widths.
Lets take this link:
http://www.lenntech.de/Produkte/Eato...bag/index.html

the holes are 100microns (equals 0.1mm). Too small ? Too big?

I appreciate your fast and helpful replies a lot !
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post #2013 of 2036 Old 03-25-2015, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by createch2 View Post
Unfortunately, the link from the thread post #1 to the strainers is broken. So I have no comparision what I have to look for.
Reason for asking is that I fear to filter out the silver particles if the strainer is too narrow. I am not in the socks business, and I think even there are big differences?
I was in a shop for professional painter today and they have different mesh widths.
Lets take this link:
http://www.lenntech.de/Produkte/Eato...bag/index.html

the holes are 100microns (equals 0.1mm). Too small ? Too big?

I appreciate your fast and helpful replies a lot !
I have the same question. The link several pages back doesn't work anymore so I am trying to source my own from hardware/paint stores over here in NZ, it's the last thing I need to buy and I am not having much luck. I did find something but I think it is too fine.
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post #2014 of 2036 Old 03-25-2015, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by createch2 View Post
Unfortunately, the link from the thread post #1 to the strainers is broken. So I have no comparision what I have to look for.
Reason for asking is that I fear to filter out the silver particles if the strainer is too narrow. I am not in the socks business, and I think even there are big differences?
I was in a shop for professional painter today and they have different mesh widths.
Lets take this link:
http://www.lenntech.de/Produkte/Eato...bag/index.html

the holes are 100microns (equals 0.1mm). Too small ? Too big?

I appreciate your fast and helpful replies a lot !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse7 View Post
I have the same question. The link several pages back doesn't work anymore so I am trying to source my own from hardware/paint stores over here in NZ, it's the last thing I need to buy and I am not having much luck. I did find something but I think it is too fine.
As long as the Strainer Bag is a Nylon Mesh type such as linked to and pictured below, it will be just fine to use.
Sock....Bag.....hey.....it's whatever you wanna call it as long as it looks like the one pictured.


http://www.amazon.com/Gallon-SuperTu...KK6NZ6VPX8V581


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post #2015 of 2036 Old 03-25-2015, 11:15 PM
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Getting ready to "pain" eh? Let's hope it's not gonna be THAT bad !

Better to cover the overhang to prevent any spray dust from trying to stick. Thin Plastic is cheap. Elbow grease comes at a premium.

And the advice to spread thin plastic over the adjacent areas is well given. While they say "Little or no over spray" what they mean is no horrible amount of "wet" spray going where your not aiming. The nature of a HVLP gun is to fully atomize as much of the paint with air as possible...but do so at the lowest possible pressure. So that means that what you do get is a dry dust that still can spread out and collect on surfaces.

That is why they call them "HVLP" (High Volume / Low Pressure)

Using some really thin 0.7 mil 9x12 plastic sheets (2 @ $2.99 ) you can pretty much cover the world, and when do simply wad it all up in a small Ball and toss it all away.

Lastly, pull the sides out to at least 4'-5' off the wall. Myself, using Thumbtacks, I always hang a "drape" from Ceiling to floor at the rear that also overlaps the sides. Even with all that there will be some dust intrusion outside the "tent" so that is why covering Tables and Furniture simply decreases the clean up at the end.
Decided to play it safe and made a tent. See attached pic .

Thanks for the info on the mesh sock. Finally found some after checking several stores.
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post #2016 of 2036 Old 03-25-2015, 11:19 PM
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I thought I had everything all good to go. Then I red a post about mixing the paint with a squirrel cage. I only have one of these in the attachment.

Will that do the job good enough? I checked everywhere and we can't get those cage mixers anywhere in NZ. I could take the cans to my local paint shop and they can shake them up.
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post #2017 of 2036 Old 03-26-2015, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse7 View Post
Decided to play it safe and made a tent. See attached pic .

Thanks for the info on the mesh sock. Finally found some after checking several stores.
Looks similar to what I'm doing for spray . Not sealed off as I want ventilation, but all the important stuff in the garage is covered.

(first photo is before sintra repairs [was pretty bad, but seems promising/smooth now after many compound applications]). Temporary location for paint.



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post #2018 of 2036 Old 03-26-2015, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jesse7 View Post
I thought I had everything all good to go. Then I red a post about mixing the paint with a squirrel cage. I only have one of these in the attachment.

Will that do the job good enough? I checked everywhere and we can't get those cage mixers anywhere in NZ. I could take the cans to my local paint shop and they can shake them up.
That kind of mixing tool is called a "Whip" and is designed for mixing heavier bodied paints. It will work for Silver Fire but throughly mixing everything will take a lot longer....because with that type of tool, you need to run it at a pretty high speed. That is something you realy do not want to do with Silver Fire as doing such will introduce a lot of Air Bubbles.

The most important aspect in all the mixing is getting the water content thoroughly blended. You have two options here...and perhaps a mixture of both would be best.

  • First mix the Viscosity Mix
  • Dilute the desired Colorant amount with a equal amount of the Viscosity Mix. Set aside.
  • Take 1/4 of the Viscosity mix and add it to the Dulux in a small enough container that your Mixing tool can displace and stir the mixture well. Run the Mixing tool at a medium speed.
  • Take the rest of the Viscosity Mix and add each of the Reflective components...one at a time, pouring them slowly and directly down into to center area of the mixing tool's impellers. Run the Mixing tool at a medium speed. Then add the diluted Colorant mix.
  • Add the Viscosity / Dulux mix into the Viscosity / Reflective, mixing it in the same manner. Mix the 'ell out of it at medium speed for as long as is reasonable.
  • Strain the paint into a clean can to remove excess Bubbles and any solids (clumps , dirt, debris)
If you have the mixed paint it a can / container that can be tightly sealed, keep the lid on it and during the painting process, every couple coats or so, between reloading the paint Gun, repeatedly pick it up and swish / shake it up for 30 seconds at a time to keep it well bended.

Shopping around usually can locate at least a few variations....but on "The Island of Middle Earth" I realize that selection is limited, and importing time consuming if not expensive.




By the way Jessie7, that Tent will do well to prevent a lot of sprayed dust from getting out, but that open top will still let enough out that you should still cover any furniture you don't want to have to wipe down to remove such dust.

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post #2019 of 2036 Old 03-26-2015, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Medisinyl,

It would be best if you add at least 3"-4" additional "side edging" around the Sintra to avoid uneven spray distribution. You need to have a area where you can run off a even edge (no abrupt drop off) and the drop down the height of your fist and then run back onto the material. A Drop Off creates a swirling called "Vortex-ing" that makes the edges receive a light coating. Also you certainly do NOT want to do your Row drop on the Sintra as that will quickly build up and you WILL get runs like crazy.

I often just simply tape up a plastic skirt attached to the edges. If your planning to add Trim over the edges of the Sintra, (...and seeing thise screws seems to indicate you are...) simply tape plastic or Cardboard "wings" around the edges that give you a surface to run off onto.

BTW...the Top and Bottom edges are all the more important because you must run 1/2 your pattern height off the edge down the entire length of the screen to get a even lay of paint.

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post #2020 of 2036 Old 03-26-2015, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Medisinyl,

It would be best if you add at least 3"-4" additional "side edging" around the Sintra to avoid uneven spray distribution. You need to have a area where you can run off a even edge (no abrupt drop off) and the drop down the height of your fist and then run back onto the material. A Drop Off creates a swirling called "Vortex-ing" that makes the edges receive a light coating. Also you certainly do NOT want to do your Row drop on the Sintra as that will quickly build up and you WILL get runs like crazy.

I often just simply tape up a plastic skirt attached to the edges. If your planning to add Trim over the edges of the Sintra, (...and seeing thise screws seems to indicate you are...) simply tape plastic or Cardboard "wings" around the edges that give you a surface to run off onto.

BTW...the Top and Bottom edges are all the more important because you must run 1/2 your pattern height off the edge down the entire length of the screen to get a even lay of paint.
Great advice, thank you. Cardboard/plastic sounds simple enough (you're correct to assume I intend to trim over the screws.
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post #2021 of 2036 Old 03-26-2015, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Great advice, thank you. Cardboard/plastic sounds simple enough (you're correct to assume I intend to trim over the screws.
Glad I caught you in time.

Unfortunately sometimes that is not the case.

While it may seem to be a small enough consideration, it can in fact be a serious set back...and for those who are not planning to cover the edges with trim, a "Drop Dead, Absolute necessity".

In your case, carrying a even coating to a point that resides under the Trim will assure you of a perfect looking screen edge.

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post #2022 of 2036 Old 03-26-2015, 01:26 PM
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That kind of mixing tool is called a "Whip" and is designed for mixing heavier bodied paints. It will work for Silver Fire but throughly mixing everything will take a lot longer....because with that type of tool, you need to run it at a pretty high speed. That is something you realy do not want to do with Silver Fire as doing such will introduce a lot of Air Bubbles.

The most important aspect in all the mixing is getting the water content thoroughly blended. You have two options here...and perhaps a mixture of both would be best.

  • First mix the Viscosity Mix
  • Dilute the desired Colorant amount with a equal amount of the Viscosity Mix. Set aside.
  • Take 1/4 of the Viscosity mix and add it to the Dulux in a small enough container that your Mixing tool can displace and stir the mixture well. Run the Mixing tool at a medium speed.
  • Take the rest of the Viscosity Mix and add each of the Reflective components...one at a time, pouring them slowly and directly down into to center area of the mixing tool's impellers. Run the Mixing tool at a medium speed. Then add the diluted Colorant mix.
  • Add the Viscosity / Dulux mix into the Viscosity / Reflective, mixing it in the same manner. Mix the 'ell out of it at medium speed for as long as is reasonable.
  • Strain the paint into a clean can to remove excess Bubbles and any solids (clumps , dirt, debris)
If you have the mixed paint it a can / container that can be tightly sealed, keep the lid on it and during the painting process, every couple coats or so, between reloading the paint Gun, repeatedly pick it up and swish / shake it up for 30 seconds at a time to keep it well bended.

Shopping around usually can locate at least a few variations....but on "The Island of Middle Earth" I realize that selection is limited, and importing time consuming if not expensive.




By the way Jessie7, that Tent will do well to prevent a lot of sprayed dust from getting out, but that open top will still let enough out that you should still cover any furniture you don't want to have to wipe down to remove such dust.
Tent is fully enclosed. No gap at the top might be hard to see from photo.

I found a couple of variations on the mixer and is a few more shops to check. Not quite like those you posted but they may do a better job. My paint is already all pre mixed ready to go. It has just been sitting a long time so I need to stir it up. Then add water to get the viscosity right. I am planning to give you a call I just need to figure out the timing.

I might have to put it off another week if I can't find something suitable to mix it without buying from overseas.

Last edited by Jesse7; 03-26-2015 at 01:35 PM.
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post #2023 of 2036 Old 03-26-2015, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I am planning to give you a call I just need to figure out the timing.

I might have to put it off another week if I can't find something suitable to mix it without buying from overseas. My paint is already all pre mixed ready to go. It has just been sitting a long time so I need to stir it up.

OK...now I "get'cha....I gotcha "Stone" cold.......

You might want to reconsider that "thinnin' " business because I'm'a bettin' the Mix is alread at the viscosity desired.
What's really criminal is that I could'a sent you a Mixer Tool had we considered that. But...since the mix is alread "pre-mixed" and just the water content separated, the tools you can access...plus some shaking, should get the job done.

Save a penny or 1000.....You should Skype me. Send me a invite or email me your handle.

BTW, you are 18 hours ahead of me. It's 4:45 pm Thursday at the time I type this, and 10:45 am Friday in NZ

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post #2024 of 2036 Old 03-26-2015, 03:30 PM
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OK...now I "get'cha....I gotcha "Stone" cold.......

You might want to reconsider that "thinnin' " business because I'm'a bettin' the Mix is alread at the viscosity desired.
What's really criminal is that I could'a sent you a Mixer Tool had we considered that. But...since the mix is alread "pre-mixed" and just the water content separated, the tools you can access...plus some shaking, should get the job done.

Save a penny or 1000.....You should Skype me. Send me a invite or email me your handle.

BTW, you are 18 hours ahead of me. It's 4:45 pm Thursday at the time I type this, and 10:45 am Friday in NZ
Cool. Will like you give you a skype tomorrow afternoon your time. Yer I was wondering if it was already thinned out or not I was hoping it was . emailed you my skype.

Thanks heaps. I didn't know mixing was a "thing" until way too late, having to piece everything together from a 200 post thread is hard . But think I have found something that will do the trick.
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post #2025 of 2036 Old 03-26-2015, 08:02 PM
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Just went to the paint shop to get some primer. They have two kinds.
- Dulux 1 step, Primer sealer and undercoat all in one and
- Dulux prepcoat Primercryl, acrylic primer undercoat.

Which do I pick or are both ok? I am painting onto an already nicely painted house wall.

To thin it I slowly add water to around 20% water or to the viscosity required?

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post #2026 of 2036 Old 03-27-2015, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Just went to the paint shop to get some primer. They have two kinds.
- Dulux 1 step, Primer sealer and undercoat all in one and
- Dulux prepcoat Primercryl, acrylic primer undercoat.

Which do I pick or are both ok? I am painting onto an already nicely painted house wall.
Just Primer....always "Water Based" of course.

Quote:
To thin it I slowly add water to around 20% water or to the viscosity required?
Since Primers come in varying thicknesses, start with 20% water and add more if needed to reach desired viscosity to allow free flow characteristics through the Gun.

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MM: Since I have already primer and grey color on my screen (that I will sand before next coats), do I need to apply primer again? Or can I spray 2 coats of the Dulux (I purchased a lot more than I need for the mix). If yes, should I add 10% Water to the mix or more?

By the way, is there a proper way to measure the viscosity of the mix for the wagner detail head? I have seen some "viscosity tester" in the shop but wasnt sure about the use.
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post #2028 of 2036 Old 03-27-2015, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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MM: Since I have already primer and grey color on my screen (that I will sand before next coats), do I need to apply primer again? Or can I spray 2 coats of the Dulux (I purchased a lot more than I need for the mix). If yes, should I add 10% Water to the mix or more?

By the way, is there a proper way to measure the viscosity of the mix for the wagner detail head? I have seen some "viscosity tester" in the shop but wasnt sure about the use.
The Dulux White will serve you well....but absolutely will need to be thinned enough....(10% is too little, 25% more likely ) and it will take a bit longer to dry between Duster coats that will Primer.

Having a pure white background is essential because it helps retain gain that might otherwise be lost through absorption into the translucent SF coat...and in doing so it also serves to retain the brightness of Whites....all without decreasing the Black Levels SF is so noted for.

As far as determining the proper viscosity (...lack thereof really....) it is a simple 2 step process.
  1. You mix Filtered or Distilled Water in small amounts until you see the paint pour off the mixing tool in a stream. Not slide....not ooze...not drip off in clumps. The observed consistency should be that of Tomato Soup (w/no Crackers)
  2. When you the pour the paint into the Nylon Straining Net, the paint should barely pool in the bottom and then continue to run through the net at a steady pace, equal to your pour rate...which should be at a speed equal to that which you pour Milk into a Glass.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #2029 of 2036 Old 03-27-2015, 12:03 PM
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The Dulux White will serve you well....but absolutely will need to be thinned enough....(10% is too little, 25% more likely ) and it will take a bit longer to dry between Duster coats that will Primer.

Having a pure white background is essential because it helps retain gain that might otherwise be lost through absorption into the translucent SF coat...and in doing so it also serves to retain the brightness of Whites....all without decreasing the Black Levels SF is so noted for.

As far as determining the proper viscosity (...lack thereof really....) it is a simple 2 step process.
  1. You mix Filtered or Distilled Water in small amounts until you see the paint pour off the mixing tool in a stream. Not slide....not ooze...not drip off in clumps. The observed consistency should be that of Tomato Soup (w/no Crackers)
  2. When you the pour the paint into the Nylon Straining Net, the paint should barely pool in the bottom and then continue to run through the net at a steady pace, equal to your pour rate...which should be at a speed equal to that which you pour Milk into a Glass.
I think I added roughly 25% water and it was coming off the mixing tool in a stream.
I just sprayed the first coat and basically it workes. But it spits some bigger wrinkles around my target spray area. Is it too thin or too thick?
Do I power the wagner air supply at maximum?
Wrinkles are not depending on the paint amount on the paint trigger.
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post #2030 of 2036 Unread Yesterday, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by createch2 View Post
I think I added roughly 25% water and it was coming off the mixing tool in a stream.
I just sprayed the first coat and basically it workes. But it spits some bigger wrinkles around my target spray area. Is it too thin or too thick?
Do I power the wagner air supply at maximum?
Wrinkles are not depending on the paint amount on the paint trigger.
I am having a similar issue with my white dulux primer coat. I added around 20% water and ran it through my strainer. It looked similar to in your videos so I figured it was about right. I did some testing on cardboard. It makes an ok mist in the middle but spits little drops all around. So I didn't even bother starting. I gave it a good blast to make sure it was clear of any excess water etc.

I figured I needed more water.. I went upto 25%. Then I tried 30% then maybe around 40%. All pretty similar results. I compared it with the premixxed silver fire I got from you MM and it runs off a knife semi similar, except the 35 and 30% are probably too runny now. Re looking at your strainer vids perhaps the 20% water was too much actually.

.I have this Gun
http://www.amazon.com/1000ml-Electri...iglink20246-20
I have the knob at the back wound 95% all the way out. I tried bringing it almost all the way in but that didn't seem to change much.

I am spraying from 12".

Some Ideas of what I think they problem might be.
- I am using small 1 litre (33 oz) tins so I put my water and paint mix in that and shook it up for 2-3 minutes and let it settle for 5. Could this be my issue? Too many air bubbles in the paint? Or would this not mix the water through well enough?

Any other ideas?

Attached is a photo of the spray pattern. Note all the out lying droplets. That one is of 40% thinned paint so yes I know it is too thing but even 20% thin produced very similar splatter or drops. Also it is not straight up and down. It is slightly on an angle. I can adjust the angle of my hand but doesn't seem like it should be.
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post #2031 of 2036 Unread Yesterday, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Wagners.......

One thing that many overlook when assembling a Wagner Gun is to always depress the Trigger when inserting the Black Needle Cover. It should always sit fully seated into the Gun's Throat, and when you tighten the Yellow Coller down, squeezing the trigger assures that the assembly is sealed.

Fail to do this and the air flow and atomization will be inconsistent and the gun's pressure will surge and falter, causing the spray to spurt and splatter.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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post #2032 of 2036 Unread Yesterday, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Jessie7

That is how a Duster Pattern looks! (...although the really widely dispersed droplets do speak of a almost too loose mix...)

You are not supposed to get a solid pattern....that would be far too much paint hitting the surface at once.

The sparseness of the initial Patterns always worries people....but after the 4th coat or so as the sparse areas start ti fill in, some peace of mind usually comes.

The whole idea is to get a "wide" (...as in tall vertically...) pattern and then mover across the surface at 2'-3' per seond. At the end of each row you dropdown the height of your Fist so that your next Pattern overlaps the previous row by 60%-70%.

That means the "Center" of that following pattern passes over the weaker, more sparse area of the previous Pattern.

It seems that some people catch only parts the videos and images of the process....they see me actually painting, but don't look at the initial "spotty pattern" images of the first 2-3 coats.

But I always post 'em up.

And so they just go on adding more and more water until they do actually get a mix so watered down it can help but do anything but sling out droplets.

Almost always (...except perhaps with the "sludge-like" Dulux...) 30% water to Paint i8s the very most that is ever needed.

There is never a reason any Mix needs to be thinned more than when it's thinned enough to pour off a mixing tool and strain almost freely right through a Nylon straining sock. Perhaps the worst of it is that once a DIY'er gets to the "I'm ready to spray" stage, there simply isn't the patience to wait to post a question about thinning, pattern appearance, spray technique.....


(...I am absolutely certain the Mix you have is extremely close to being thinned enough already so please, try it as is first )

.........and therein starts the damage control.

And some question why I bother to offer my Phone number to some for "real time" advice....I'll tell ya why.

Far better to field a call in the middle of doing something that to come back to this Board and find a disaster in the making...or worse.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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post #2033 of 2036 Unread Yesterday, 01:15 PM
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Thanks MM. I watched all your vids on photobucket. Couldnt make out the extra splatter or wasnt looking out for it. Will have another look. Better safe than sorry is why I didn't go ahead and just paint. Will give it another shot today. I spent a couple hours making dif consistencies and spraying them so it was good practice for all steps. I very much wanted to call you but pretty sure at 3am your time that you woulda been sleeping .
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post #2034 of 2036 Unread Yesterday, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jesse7 View Post
Thanks MM. I watched all your vids on photobucket. Couldnt make out the extra splatter or wasnt looking out for it. Will have another look. Better safe than sorry is why I didn't go ahead and just paint. Will give it another shot today. I spent a couple hours making dif consistencies and spraying them so it was good practice for all steps. I very much wanted to call you but pretty sure at 3am your time that you woulda been sleeping .
Actually, between not being able to sleep more than 2 hours at a time right now due to my head injury, and a already pre-set biological clock that has me wake up at 3 am "every" night (...for over 20 years I had to get up a load a Wood Stove in winter....) if you need to talk, just shoot a Skype message and leave your PC on. I will check each morning at / around that time to see if your wanting some additional instruction and/or advice.
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To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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post #2035 of 2036 Unread Yesterday, 10:10 PM
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Actually, between not being able to sleep more than 2 hours at a time right now due to my head injury, and a already pre-set biological clock that has me wake up at 3 am "every" night (...for over 20 years I had to get up a load a Wood Stove in winter....) if you need to talk, just shoot a Skype message and leave your PC on. I will check each morning at / around that time to see if your wanting some additional instruction and/or advice.
MM - A thousand "thank you's" wouldn't be enough to let you know how impressed I am about the level of support you are offering here. I just finished building my frame and can't wait to get things sorted out for spraying. It is fantastic to see someone as dedicated as you...a tip of the hat to you!
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Originally Posted by banzaiibc View Post
MM - A thousand "thank you's" wouldn't be enough to let you know how impressed I am about the level of support you are offering here. I just finished building my frame and can't wait to get things sorted out for spraying. It is fantastic to see someone as dedicated as you...a tip of the hat to you!
I am also very impressed ! 1000 thanks from me too!
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