The Official Silver Fire V.2 Thread. - Page 79 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2341 of 2432 Old 02-07-2016, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NU_FTW View Post
does it change the poly matte?
No...everything is Matte.
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post #2342 of 2432 Old 02-07-2016, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
No...everything is Matte.
so 16oz poly matte is uniform regardless of the sheen of the paint itself at this point so with matte being a higher sheen than the flat UWP is acceptable? i have not began to source product yet but within the next 15-45 days i will be doing this for sure. BTW i am astonished at the markup of amazon's prices over menards thank god i have 5 menards within 50 miles of me. (for the rust-oleum)
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post #2343 of 2432 Old 02-07-2016, 10:28 PM
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What is the darkest one can go with SF without diminishing returns? i see recommendations of 3.0 how dark before SF exhibits issues with cone/contrast/grain/gain 100" 2000 Lumen MAX optimized at 1200(calibrated) and being from 9-10' away from screen BenQ W1070 if that helps. Still wrapping my head around everything If you cannot tell im a newbie to this
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post #2344 of 2432 Old 02-08-2016, 01:36 AM
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I've been in Houston for the past 3 months... and no Menard's in sight...i'm lost! It's much nicer to find a quart of Rustoleum metallic on the shelf...sometimes as little as 18.99 on sale.

the rustolem ultimate matte poly (water-based) is the flattest available sheen on market and works extremely well at cross-linking the entire mix together and keeping it at a near ultra flat.

as for deepest shade...generally you can to a 6.0 without considering any alterations.
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post #2345 of 2432 Old 02-10-2016, 02:19 PM
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Is SF base RGB Neutral? the one with the gold in it? and is it neutral prior to or after UPW? Thanks
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post #2346 of 2432 Old 02-10-2016, 02:35 PM
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Absolutely. On both fronts.
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post #2347 of 2432 Old 02-10-2016, 02:38 PM
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Absolutely. On both fronts.
cool thanks
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post #2348 of 2432 Old 02-14-2016, 11:37 AM
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anyone have some CLOSE UP pics of the finished colorant?? Didn't we used to have one on either the first or second page of the Silver Fire??
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post #2349 of 2432 Old 02-14-2016, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post
anyone have some CLOSE UP pics of the finished colorant?? Didn't we used to have one on either the first or second page of the Silver Fire??
When you say "finished" do you mean just the RGBY acrylics together, or after they've been thinned to 50% with their utensil rinse water, or after the thinned colorant has the equal parts Silver and Pearl added which further dilutes the 50% acrylic mixture into a 16.5% acrylic mixture?

I think the picture of just the RGBY acrylic and water mix is in an early post of the older SilverFire v1.5 or 2.0 thread as well as the BlackFlame FX thread.

If you want a more realistic look at how bright/dark the colorant is for SilverFire, I have a post in here a couple pages back which shows both the RGBY+water AND what it looks like after adding the appropriate ounces of Silver and Pearl that are added each time you increase the amount of colorant used. The Silver+Pearl makes the colorant a LOT lighter.

EDIT:
The far left container is a half-batch of plain colorant (50ml RGBY acrylics+50ml water), the middle is what the 100ml of colorant+water looks like when pre-mixed with the 100ml of pearl and 100ml of silver, the far right is a 90ml sample of SF-base (silver+pearl+UPW+poly+water).
The picture on the right shows where the light that's hitting the screen is coming from..a fairly sharp incoming angle of light allows a light-rejecting screen to do what it does.


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Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #2350 of 2432 Old 02-14-2016, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
When you say "finished" do you mean just the RGBY acrylics together, or after they've been thinned to 50% with their utensil rinse water, or after the thinned colorant has the equal parts Silver and Pearl added which further dilutes the 50% acrylic mixture into a 16.5% acrylic mixture?

I think the picture of just the RGBY acrylic and water mix is in an early post of the older SilverFire v1.5 or 2.0 thread as well as the BlackFlame FX thread.

If you want a more realistic look at how bright/dark the colorant is for SilverFire, I have a post in here a couple pages back which shows both the RGBY+water AND what it looks like after adding the appropriate ounces of Silver and Pearl that are added each time you increase the amount of colorant used. The Silver+Pearl makes the colorant a LOT lighter.

EDIT:
The far left container is a half-batch of plain colorant (50ml RGBY acrylics+50ml water), the middle is what the 100ml of colorant+water looks like when pre-mixed with the 100ml of pearl and 100ml of silver, the far right is a 90ml sample of SF-base (silver+pearl+UPW+poly+water).
The picture on the right shows where the light that's hitting the screen is coming from..a fairly sharp incoming angle of light allows a light-rejecting screen to do what it does.

Thanks for the pic Ftoast. Yes, just the RGB colorant by itself mixed with the 100ml water. I would like to find a more up close pic of it Ftoast then the one up top but think you for the info on where to look for a diff pic. When you make your RGB colorant mix what is your method of choice?? I tend to stick with 50 ML syringes and suck the paint up with them but they come with some issues in use. I never really like the ML spoons cause it was just as hard to get a perfectly level spoon with NO paint on the edges. I'm pretty sure I got the color right but just want to be sure.
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post #2351 of 2432 Old 02-14-2016, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post
Thanks for the pic Ftoast. Yes, just the RGB colorant by itself mixed with the 100ml water. I would like to find a more up close pic of it Ftoast then the one up top but think you for the info on where to look for a diff pic. When you make your RGB colorant mix what is your method of choice?? I tend to stick with 50 ML syringes and suck the paint up with them but they come with some issues in use. I never really like the ML spoons cause it was just as hard to get a perfectly level spoon with NO paint on the edges. I'm pretty sure I got the color right but just want to be sure.
I used a set of 1.25/2.5/5/15ml spoons and made sure to fill them slow as I neared the top to let it flatten/level out, then I dipped and stirred the used spoon in the small container of rinse water that gets mixed with the RGBY acrylics.
The colorant is said to have a tiny bit of forgiveness built in, but doing it as slow and carefully as possible obviously doesn't hurt.
It's supposed to turn out looking like really dirty oil or really dark coffee from what I've read, and I can agree with the description.

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Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #2352 of 2432 Old 02-14-2016, 07:21 PM
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Personally i would use proper measurement supplies, those used in labs, syringes/graduated cylinders. I use these same supplies in the process of making E-Liquid for vaping. It is more important when working with nicotine to make sure things are exact. These supplies can be had for rather cheap. Personally i order my supplies from amazon when it comes to measurement tools.
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post #2353 of 2432 Old 02-15-2016, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
When you say "finished" do you mean just the RGBY acrylics together, or after they've been thinned to 50% with their utensil rinse water, or after the thinned colorant has the equal parts Silver and Pearl added which further dilutes the 50% acrylic mixture into a 16.5% acrylic mixture?

I think the picture of just the RGBY acrylic and water mix is in an early post of the older SilverFire v1.5 or 2.0 thread as well as the BlackFlame FX thread.

If you want a more realistic look at how bright/dark the colorant is for SilverFire, I have a post in here a couple pages back which shows both the RGBY+water AND what it looks like after adding the appropriate ounces of Silver and Pearl that are added each time you increase the amount of colorant used. The Silver+Pearl makes the colorant a LOT lighter.

EDIT:
The far left container is a half-batch of plain colorant (50ml RGBY acrylics+50ml water), the middle is what the 100ml of colorant+water looks like when pre-mixed with the 100ml of pearl and 100ml of silver, the far right is a 90ml sample of SF-base (silver+pearl+UPW+poly+water).
The picture on the right shows where the light that's hitting the screen is coming from..a fairly sharp incoming angle of light allows a light-rejecting screen to do what it does.

So, I found this pic in the older silver Fire thread of the colorant:




I'm confused though, the colorant is way darker in this pic then your's up top Ftoast. Is the black one what it looks like without the 100 ml of water mixed where as your pic has the water mixed in??
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post #2354 of 2432 Old 02-15-2016, 05:14 PM
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...don't be. the latter being a very old pic.
go with the pic floast posted...that and the description are are closer to what you'll get on your own.
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post #2355 of 2432 Old 02-23-2016, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I used a set of 1.25/2.5/5/15ml spoons and made sure to fill them slow as I neared the top to let it flatten/level out, then I dipped and stirred the used spoon in the small container of rinse water that gets mixed with the RGBY acrylics.
The colorant is said to have a tiny bit of forgiveness built in, but doing it as slow and carefully as possible obviously doesn't hurt.
It's supposed to turn out looking like really dirty oil or really dark coffee from what I've read, and I can agree with the description.
With those size ML measuing spoons, how do you get the 14ml needed of the Ultramarine Blue?? I can't add up any of those sizes to get 14 ml...
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post #2356 of 2432 Old 02-23-2016, 10:04 PM
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With those size ML measuing spoons, how do you get the 14ml needed of the Ultramarine Blue?? I can't add up any of those sizes to get 14 ml...
I was wondering if someone would catch on to that.

In my case I simply used the 5ml twice full and a third time a little more than 3/4full...not anything super precise, but less than 15ml and more than 12.5ml to where it was pretty close. Even in that less than ideal situation the color came out looking really nice (its white-balance appears to match well against plain white instead of looking noticeably colder).

Though you should always try your best to get the measurements as accurate as possible, the most recent numbers have been made to allow some human error without anything going tragically wrong.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #2357 of 2432 Old 02-23-2016, 11:04 PM
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post #2358 of 2432 Old 02-27-2016, 08:09 PM
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It's supposed to turn out looking like really dirty oil or really dark coffee from what I've read, and I can agree with the description.
When you say really dark coffee, I think of black coffee. How can i get an accurate pic of my colorant so you guys can see how i see it. My colorant comes out basically looking like Hershey's special dark chocolate, which from what i've read, seems correct. I want to get a pic of it for you guys to see.
When you measure each colorant(red, green, blue and yellow) in the spoon, afterwards, Do you just dip the measuring spoons in the rinsing water and just keep stirring till all the paint comes off??
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post #2359 of 2432 Old 02-28-2016, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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A very dark chocolate would be the correct color, stop worrying about it and get it done!

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post #2360 of 2432 Old 02-28-2016, 09:08 PM
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A very dark chocolate would be the correct color, stop worrying about it and get it done!
How does this colorant look:







I don't like the fact that after comparing a small sample of Silver fire 5.0 that I just made using this colorant, looks lighter in darkness then a little bit of left over Silver Fire 3.0 mix I had from last year that I made with some colorant you sent me back in August of last year. Do you remember that colorant you sent me. I used all the same ingredient that I used in the mix I made last year, minus of course the colorant you sent me. I would have thought that after comparing the 2, the recent silver fire 5.0 that I just made should be darker then the left over silver Fire 3.0 from last year. Though I made a small sample of the 5.0, I made sure to scale all ingredients to the right measurements. This is why I'm thinking my colorant isn't dark enough and thus not making the Silver Fire 5.0 that I made yesterday,
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post #2361 of 2432 Old 02-29-2016, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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There was a changev up in the composition of the colorant just over a year ago, however you have to keep in mind, I often possess over a gallon of the colorant at any given time, and when I sent you obviously must have been a pre change batch.

Again, had you used the colorant I sent you to produce a full batch of paint for a screen, then I would guess that you wouldn't have any issues at all. but it seems that that did not happen, and that you used up some of it just to test, and then resorted to making up a new batch based on the newer colorant component instruction.

The change in the colorant was made to help provide people with a more consistent and result because of the variables that are introduced using the older formula.

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Also, did your old SF-3 use the extra 3oz of Silver and 3oz Pearl or was the colorant added without the exra silver+pearl?

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #2363 of 2432 Old 02-29-2016, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
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There was a changev up in the composition of the colorant just over a year ago, however you have to keep in mind, I often possess over a gallon of the colorant at any given time, and when I sent you obviously must have been a pre change batch.

Again, had you used the colorant I sent you to produce a full batch of paint for a screen, then I would guess that you wouldn't have any issues at all. but it seems that that did not happen, and that you used up some of it just to test, and then resorted to making up a new batch based on the newer colorant component instruction.

The change in the colorant was made to help provide people with a more consistent and result because of the variables that are introduced using the older formula.
I was thinking that might have been the case. So, the pic of my colorant up top looks okay??
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post #2364 of 2432 Old 02-29-2016, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I was thinking that might have been the case. So, the pic of my colorant up top looks okay??
Yes. Since last September I have been advocating the use of Black Flame more than Silver Fire, not so much for any commercial reason much as the effectiveness is more assured when using the premade mix then it is when people attempt to put it together themselves. That is not to say that the process is too difficult, but rather that it does require that the colorant especially be Mixed correctly.

To achieve a darker shade, you can simply adjust the older stipulations and increase each level by 2 steps. (ie: 3.0 to 5.0)

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Last edited by MississippiMan; 02-29-2016 at 07:17 AM. Reason: Correcting "speak to text errors" occurring while on my back taking Phys. Therapy.
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post #2365 of 2432 Old 02-29-2016, 06:19 PM
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There was a changev up in the composition of the colorant just over a year ago, however you have to keep in mind, I often possess over a gallon of the colorant at any given time, and when I sent you obviously must have been a pre change batch.

Again, had you used the colorant I sent you to produce a full batch of paint for a screen, then I would guess that you wouldn't have any issues at all. but it seems that that did not happen, and that you used up some of it just to test, and then resorted to making up a new batch based on the newer colorant component instruction.

The change in the colorant was made to help provide people with a more consistent and result because of the variables that are introduced using the older formula.
Yes, with the colorant you sent me last year I made a full batch of Silver Fire 3.0 to use and spray. After that I didn't have enough Colorant left over to do much and left it as that. Now, I still had a little bit of that silver fire 3.0 mix left over and stored it away and kept it for what ever reason. Lately though, I did some rereading of a post you made while back called "Absolute Proof of the Difference" back in 2011. Post can found here:

Absolute Proof of the difference......

I really liked how the higher you went up in Silver Fire darkness(5.0, 6.0, 7.0 etc) the better the contrast got and decided I would make a batch of silver fire 5.0, spray on a substrate, then compare to my Silver Fire 3.0. Well, I made the batch of Silver Fire 5.0 and for what ever reason decided to compare the completed Silver Fire 5.0 i just made to that left over 3.0 from last year and that's when I noticed the old 3.0 seemed to be lighter the this new 5.0 i just made. Now keep in mind I compared the color of the mix not the dried finished paint. My question is though, in that post from 2011 did you use the lighter Liquitex Silver for those samples or did you use the darker Martha Stuart silver at that time??

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Also, did your old SF-3 use the extra 3oz of Silver and 3oz Pearl or was the colorant added without the exra silver+pearl?
Not sure. Since I got the colorant from MississippiMan in Aug of last year and the Silver Fire formula hasn't changed since 6/26/2015 I would have to go with what ever the formula asked for then.

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Yes. Since last September I have been advocating the use of Black Flame more than Silver Fire, not so much for any commercial reason much as the effectiveness is more assured when using the premade mix then it is when people attempt to put it together themselves. That is not to say that the process is too difficult, but rather that it does require that the colorant especially be Mixed correctly.

To achieve a darker shade, you can simply adjust the older stipulations and increase each level by 2 steps. (ie: 3.0 to 5.0)
Only reason I haven't switched over to black flame is cause I still have enough ingredients for silver fire and for now I just wanted to use those ingredients to try some darker shades of Silver Fire and see how i like them.
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post #2366 of 2432 Old 02-29-2016, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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narhic_fd,

As I have discussed with you before, the reason we/I did not pursue recommending the darker versions was because darker version that by necessity had to contain higher levels of metallic content exhibited the very "Granularity" that we have always tried to keep under control.
Metallic Grain induced artifacts are pretty much universally decried if they rise to a level they can be seen to be introducing a "dirtiness" to very light pastels such as Blue Skies during panning shots...as well as creating a surface with far more tendency toward Retro-Reflectivity. While the former might seem a minor thing, for a few it was something to grab onto to show a fallacy in Silver Fire. The latter we considered to be a major flaw. So with the exclusion of the need to use such ultra dark levels for commercial Screens in ultra high ambient light locations, it fell out of our primary focus.

Later we did determine that by adding extra UPW we could significantly reduce those undesirable traits, while still maintaining both a darker surface shade and appreciable brightness.

BTW. we have never used Martha Stewart SM in a official Mix. PB_Maxxx did experiment with it back some time ago, but availability and different mixing attributes made it an unacceptable choice.

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post #2367 of 2432 Old 02-29-2016, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, did your old SF-3 use the extra 3oz of Silver and 3oz Pearl or was the colorant added without the exra silver+pearl?
SF 3.0 uses the standard initially prescribed amounts of Silver & Pearl. Incremental increases start at levels above that point (4.0 ^)

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post #2368 of 2432 Old 02-29-2016, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Metallic Grain induced artifacts are pretty much universally decried if they rise to a level they can be seen to be introducing a "dirtiness" to very light pastels such as Blue Skies during panning shots...as well as creating a surface with far more tendency toward Retro-Reflectivity.
Road paint and glass-beads are retro-reflective.
Metallic and mica are angular-reflective.
I'm guessing you meant angular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
SF 3.0 uses the standard initially prescribed amounts of Silver & Pearl. Incremental increases start at levels above that point (4.0 ^)
Doesn't SF3 use 22oz pearl and 22oz silver while SF4 uses 23oz each and SF5 uses 24oz each and so on?
I think you meant that SF4 and higher uses incrementally more UPW if desired.

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post #2369 of 2432 Old 02-29-2016, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Road paint and glass-beads are retro-reflective.
Metallic and mica are angular-reflective.
I'm guessing you meant angular.
No.....I meant both. The dispersion of the mica is so varied that in high concentrations enough surfacs are aligned flat to the projected light source to produce Retro-Reflection. That is why spraying is so insisted upon...rolling will flatten out the Mica to the extreme, creating a pseudo Mirror effect, and as you know, a Mirror is Retro Reflective.

Quote:
Doesn't SF3 use 22oz pearl and 22oz silver while SF4 uses 23oz each and SF5 uses 24oz each and so on?
I think you meant that SF4 and higher uses incrementally more UPW if desired.
I was referring to the metallic content, not the UPW.. That is why I stated "SF 3.0 uses the standard initially prescribed amounts of Silver & Pearl".

You would not go on increasing UPW incrementally.

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post #2370 of 2432 Old 03-01-2016, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
No.....I meant both. The dispersion of the mica is so varied that in high concentrations enough surfacs are aligned flat to the projected light source to produce Retro-Reflection. That is why spraying is so insisted upon...rolling will flatten out the Mica to the extreme, creating a pseudo Mirror effect, and as you know, a Mirror is Retro Reflective.
Interesting thought.
I've been spraying and testing some pretty high concentrations of metallic (some using very dark-colored mixes) and have only witnessed the increase of angular reflectivity even with high amounts of clear/diffusing being used in the mix.
I'm inclined to disagree with you at this point due to the overwhelming evidence so far, but I'll keep the possibility in the back of my mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
I was referring to the metallic content, not the UPW.. That is why I stated "SF 3.0 uses the standard initially prescribed amounts of Silver & Pearl".

You would not go on increasing UPW incrementally.
But don't all versions of SF 1.0 through 8.0 and over have a unique prescribed amount of ever increasing silver+pearl?
It didn't look like 1.0-3.0 used the same set amount between all three which then only started incrementally increasing at 4.0 on up..it looks like 1.0 starts with 20oz each and that number incrementally climbs with each version linearly.

Is there somewhere in the instructions saying to use more than the originally specified 24oz silver+pearl in a SF5 or more than 26oz each in a SF7?
Are the mixes past 4.0 supposed to add more than the usual 1oz silver+pearl extra (beyond the starting 19oz silver+pearl) per each oz of colorant?

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
"A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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