The Official Silver Fire V.2 Thread. - Page 85 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2521 of 2549 Old 03-04-2017, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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QQ: What is the best way to find a local painter who can correctly apply screenpaint via the HLP method? I self-confess to not being at all a DIY'er when it comes to paint, the mixing of the paints is at my limits. I'm looking to upgrade (paint) my screen (living room wall) and it seems some variant of Silverfire may provide the best aesthetics/performance tradeoff.
Well Janhaus,

I've always specialized in help rank NOOBs be confident enough to pick up a inexpensive Electric HVLP gun and accomplish what they set out to do....and do it better than they ever dreamed they could.

Basically, even a local Painter usually has to readjust his methods to conform to what is considered both the most correct and easiest way to paint a DIY Screen. So why not give it a go yourself?

But if you still too wary to consider, shoot me a PM stating where you live and I'll try to scare up someone, or another viable solution.

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post #2522 of 2549 Old 03-17-2017, 03:50 PM
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Mississippiman, Lowe's no longer carries the rustoleum ultimate polyurethane anymore just Minwax poly....at least not here in NC. Homedepot doesn't carry it as well. What do I use???
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post #2523 of 2549 Old 03-17-2017, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Mississippiman, Lowe's no longer carries the rustoleum ultimate polyurethane anymore just Minwax poly....at least not here in NC. Homedepot doesn't carry it as well. What do I use???
You can find it Online. It is preferred. About 8.00 more than in the store.

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post #2524 of 2549 Old 03-18-2017, 08:36 AM
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You can find it Online. It is preferred. About 8.00 more than in the store.
Uhhgggg...just when most of the silver fire components became available to purchase at locale places...minus the Rust White Pearl....we add another item bound by online purchase only, lol, oh well. That's how it rolls sometimes.
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post #2525 of 2549 Old 03-18-2017, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Uhhgggg...just when most of the silver fire components became available to purchase at locale places...minus the Rust White Pearl....we add another item bound by online purchase only, lol, oh well. That's how it rolls sometimes.
If you can find the MinWax in a Matte, it will suffice. The older formula called for MinWax Satin...primarily because that was what was usually the only available option found at HD & Lowes. The use of all the other "Flat / Matte" components mitigated the Satin's sheen effect.

Subsequent testing and use of the RustOleum product (...as well as it's OEM version "Varathane") showed it to be of higher quality and more resistant to yellowing over a longer period of time. Personally I never observed the MinWax yellow out on any of my screens, and my examples date back 11+ years. But a very few others said they did, so..............

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post #2526 of 2549 Old 03-18-2017, 12:28 PM
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If you can find the MinWax in a Matte, it will suffice. The older formula called for MinWax Satin...primarily because that was what was usually the only available option found at HD & Lowes. The use of all the other "Flat / Matte" components mitigated the Satin's sheen effect.

Subsequent testing and use of the RustOleum product (...as well as it's OEM version "Varathane") showed it to be of higher quality and more resistant to yellowing over a longer period of time. Personally I never observed the MinWax yellow out on any of my screens, and my examples date back 11+ years. But a very few others said they did, so..............
Thanks for the info on the MinWax. Yes, I did see a matte version of the MinWax yesterday so it's good to know I can use it.
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post #2527 of 2549 Old 03-23-2017, 10:52 AM
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So, I was in the paint section of my local Hobby Lobby store and there was a silver metallic Paint that caught my attention. Here's a pic of the paint:



I took a closer look and noticed that just about everything of the paint reminded me of " Martha Stewart" silver paint that lowe's used to sell. Package was the same and even the paint color and texture looked dead on. Have you seen this before Do you think I could use it for Silver Fireu??

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post #2528 of 2549 Old 03-23-2017, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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It's strictly your choice to make.

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post #2529 of 2549 Old 03-23-2017, 07:36 PM
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Too few coats. 3 Coats is 4 coats too few. You cannot get a smooth look with a freckled surface.

Try 8 oz Pearl and 4 oz Silver w/2 oz UPW

You should not need the Gold when using RustOleum Metallic paint, but doing so can add a bit warmness to Skin Tones, as well as help the darker 5.0 Gray hue be more neutral. Add it sparingly though. There is Gold already in the Colorant.
Though this was last year, I'm just now getting around to trying it. I had a quick question though. I know the "normal" formula for 1/4 batch of Silver Fire 5.0 would consist of 6oz of Rust-oleum silver and 6 oz of Rust-oleum White pearl, plus the liquitex gold and all the other components that come with it. Will using 8 oz of pearl(instead of the normal 6oz) and 4 oz of silver(instead of using the normal 6oz) result in a lighter shade silver fire 5.0 vs if using the normal recipe?? Or...does the colorant added to it causes it to still wind up the same shade of grey as if i was using the 6 oz silver and 6 oz pearl??
Another question is, if you recall, the adjusted formula of the 8oz pearl and 4oz silver was in response to help reduce sparkles in the image from the mica. How does the addition of the extra pearl help reduce those sparkles?? I've read through ALLLLL of the post in the Silver Fire v2 and original Silver Fire thread and I recall that some people would add extra Behr UPW to help with sparkles. While back, I myself thought i would make a batch using extra Behr UPW to see the results. I made a batch of Silver fire 5.0, using the normal formula, but i doubled the Behr UPW from 2.5 oz(2.5 oz quarter batch 10oz full batch) to 5oz(5oz normal batch 20oz full batch). I liked how even after doubling the Behr UPW it still maintained the shade of grey a normal batch of Silver Fire 5.0 would have. In other words the extra UPW didn't seem to effect the degree of darkness a silver Fire 5.0 would naturally look.
If i had to guess, using the adjusted amounts of Pearl( 8oz instead of 6 oz) and silver(4 oz instead of 6oz) would help maintain gain from the Mica in the Pearl but would also help to reduce sparklies vs keeping the formula standered and just doubling the Behr UPW . I'm Just curious on the relation of how adding extra pearl helps reduce sparkles without having to go the rout of just adding more Behr UPW to the mix????
My main goal is that I would like to try and maintain the same shade of grey that a normal silver fire 5.0 screen would make if using the normal formula of 6 oz pearl(24 oz full batch) and 6oz silver(24 oz full batch) when using the adjustment you gave me of 8 oz pearl and 4 oz silver. Thanks again MississippiMan for you help and being patient with my litany of questions over the years...
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post #2530 of 2549 Old 03-24-2017, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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The added White...in the amount specified...does little to lighten the mix beyond what is already is....it's primary purpose is exactly what you guessed, to help mask the individual Mica particles...most specifically the darker Silver metallic, to a greater effect than without.

The greater preponderance of Pearl to Silver has the same intent, only in the case at point, it is the ratio reduction of the darker elements contained within the Silver that accomplishes the goal, and does so without overtly masking / reducing gain.

Sparklies are not nearly the issue to be avoided as is the "Dirty Window" effect caused by the disparity in color between the Pearl's Mica and the Silver's. Also bear in mind that in the case of the Silver, there can be / is instances of Black particles...essentially dark aluminum.

That last element...something that might come as bit of a shock to some, is that aluminum is the primary compound used to coat the Mica. In the case of the differences between "color", it is simply all due to the added Tint.

For some years, Mica was at the center of a huge dispute as to the effectiveness and desirability of it's use, and that of AAA Aluminum. When in actuality, all AAA is is a finely ground Mica coated with a denser coating of....aluminum. In the past, that coating was at a maximum density, as so being affected it's use. Aluminum's properties required Masking then as well, with a dense, color correcting Beige Tint. Once AAA's compound was changed, it essentially just became a weaker, watered down and lighter colored version, one that no longer needed color correction.

The Silver Metallic we suggest nowadays, the RustOleum...it's about 2x darker than the older, Liquitex version, which itself had less Mica in it as well. Once RustOlem came online, the advent of Silver Fire / Black Flame w N/C (No Colorant) became a plausible choice. The darker Gray Base was the advantage...but also the instigator of the "speckled look" (...speckles are not to be confused with sparklies...)

On that last item, Sparklies are something that usually do not present nearly as much dismay as Speckles, nor are they as visible unless viewed while a ultra bright white background is up. Also they are usually only seen when one get up close...within 2-3 feet or less.

We must blame the expectation of perfection on the calls for a DIY Screen that offers up not a single thing to lament. Everyone wants +Gain...High Contrast...perfect Smoothness...no Color Shifting. And of course it all must cost less than nothing in cash or effort.

Hey! We're working on it...continually! Be patient!

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post #2531 of 2549 Old 05-07-2017, 08:33 PM
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Bout time to get this thread bumped back to first page, lol. MississippiMan, when your measuring the Height of your Silver Fire spray pattern, I remember you saying it needs to be between 8-10 inches high. I'm curious though as to which points do you make your measurement at. For instance, Here's a pic of a Silver Fire 5.0 pattern:


At what point do you begin your measurements?? Here's another pic of my spray pattern with the main part of the pattern measured



In this top pic you can see the main CORE of the spray pattern is slightly under 10 inches. Using these 2 pics at what point in the pic should the measurement be made to correspond to a proper 8-10inch pattern?? If YOU were measuring this pattern for a Silver Fire Screen you were about to spray what height would you say this is?? Is this pattern to tall?? Thanks in advance.
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post #2532 of 2549 Old 05-08-2017, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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The Main "Core" area of the Pattern.

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post #2533 of 2549 Old 05-08-2017, 05:59 PM
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The Main "Core" area of the Pattern.
correct me if I'm wrong but when doing a test pattern, I'm supposed to hold the trigger down for 3 seconds..correct??
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post #2534 of 2549 Old 05-09-2017, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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correct me if I'm wrong but when doing a test pattern, I'm supposed to hold the trigger down for 3 seconds..correct??
2-3 seconds...just long enough to let you see the area of dispersion plainly. Remember that as you spray, no area will ever see such a quantity applied all at once. The reason your making the test is to determine how much row overlap "off-center" you'll be getting when you drop 1/3 the height of the previous Row. (...about the height of one's Fist....)

When my own mixes are applied, using a Earlex Gun w/ 1.0 mm Needle and the power I have using the Wagner Control Spray Max turbine, 2 seconds is all I need to determine things. In many of my Videos you can see me do exactly that.

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post #2535 of 2549 Old 09-21-2017, 07:28 PM
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I want to spray a base coat using Krylon's(or something similar) Metalic Chrome spray paint on a piece of TWH then follow up with some Silver Fire over it. Here's the spray paint I'm talking about:

http://www.krylon.com/products/premium-metallic/

Problem is that it's a oil/enamal based paint where as Silver Fire is Latex based. Being that the Krylon is enamel/oil based I'm guessing Silver Fire WONT adhere to it to very well and most likely, in time, will chip off and who knows what else what other problems. I read online where you CAN apply latex based paint over oil based primer but I'm curious as to how well it would work. Second, the oil based primer would be a VEEEERY thin coat then followed up spraying the Silver Fire on top of the primer. Would the very thin coat of primer provide a good enough tack for the Silver Fire to adhere to??? If the primer idea wont work then do you know of a solution that would allow me to put a coat of the Silver FIre over the Krylon chrome paint.
I know we discussed the use of a spray paint on the back of plexiglass then Silver Fire on the other side of the plexi but how do I go about It if i just want to spray the silver fire over the Krylon Metalic chrome paint??? Thanks in advance..

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post #2536 of 2549 Old 09-21-2017, 08:10 PM
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I have only painted a couple previously oil-base surfaces with water-based paints recently, so i don't know how well they'll hold up..so far so good.
If the water-based SilverFire mix doesn't stick well to the oil-based pure metallic spray, would you be able to use your sprayer and some pure Rustoleum Metallic Accents sterlingsilver (thinned with water, of course) to spray a water-based metallic base coat instead of the rattlecan oil-base metallic?

I know the oil-base can claims to look like chrome, but the ones I've seen so far look more like glossy silver metallic instead...except the expensive stuff that's supposed to be a spray-on mirror, that can look like chrome/mirror when done right. Even that looks more like a silver metallic when sprayed onto the front of things though..it's meant for the backside of glass.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
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post #2537 of 2549 Old 09-22-2017, 11:27 AM
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I have only painted a couple previously oil-base surfaces with water-based paints recently, so i don't know how well they'll hold up..so far so good.
If the water-based SilverFire mix doesn't stick well to the oil-based pure metallic spray, would you be able to use your sprayer and some pure Rustoleum Metallic Accents sterlingsilver (thinned with water, of course) to spray a water-based metallic base coat instead of the rattlecan oil-base metallic?

I know the oil-base can claims to look like chrome, but the ones I've seen so far look more like glossy silver metallic instead...except the expensive stuff that's supposed to be a spray-on mirror, that can look like chrome/mirror when done right. Even that looks more like a silver metallic when sprayed onto the front of things though..it's meant for the backside of glass.
I wouldn't want to spray the silver fire straight on to the Krylon cause I fill it would be asking for problems which is why I want to put a thin coat of oil based primer on first. Latex paint seems to do a good job of sticking to oil based primer..according to what I've read online that is. I did think about using the Rustoleum silver paint but I don't think it would give as much light reflect back as the the Krylon chrome paint would.
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post #2538 of 2549 Old 09-22-2017, 02:32 PM
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I've heard the same as you about oil-base primer from several different sources if you're planning to apply the Krylon, then primer over it, then spray SilverFire onto the primer.
But, I believe the pure Rustoleum Metallic Accents silver will be much more reflective than primer with Krylon under it.
Not saying it hurts to try/test it..I'm just placing my bet on the pure Rustoleum base being more reflective.

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post #2539 of 2549 Old 09-23-2017, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
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This is all wrong.

The ONLY Primer specifically made to address the above adherence issues to either Oil Based Paint or Enameled surfaces is Glidden's "Gripper" Primer. And it is NOT oil based.

nahic_fd, don't "guess"...follow the advice of someone who actually knows about such things from experience. Or you can elicit advice from those who do not. But if you want to do so, do it on your own thread.

Period. End of discussion.


PS....I'm glad you edited out that statement about wanting advice from anyone else but me....on my own thread.

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post #2540 of 2549 Old 09-23-2017, 09:39 AM
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This is all wrong.

The ONLY Primer specifically made to address the above adherence issues to either Oil Based Paint or Enameled surfaces is Glidden's "Gripper" Primer. And it is NOT oil based.

nahic_fd, don't "guess"...follow the advice of someone who actually knows about such things from experience. Or you can elicit advice from those who do not. But if you want to do so, do it on your own thread.

Period. End of discussion.


PS....I'm glad you edited out that statement about wanting advice from anyone else but me....on my own thread.
Oh crap!! 😔😔😔Mississippiman, I worded that statement wrong. I didn't realize how that statement read. Grammar isn't my strong suit. When I said appart from MM I didnt mean to exclude you but was meaning advise from you or anyone else who could chime in. I was actually wondering why you hadn't posted already...i can see why now. I was WANTING advise from you which is why I posted on the Siver Fire forum. Sorry I didn't word that statement right. 😭😭😭
With apologies addressed, would that primer work even if I use a light coat??
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post #2541 of 2549 Old 09-23-2017, 09:44 AM
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Badded worded grammar has been deleted.☺☺☺
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post #2542 of 2549 Old 09-23-2017, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Awwwww...don't be all like............



'cuase "It's Sawrite!



Yes...even one light coat will provide more "tack" than nothing (kinda obvious....)

2 light Duster Coats would be pretty much ideal.
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post #2543 of 2549 Old 09-23-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Awwwww...don't be all like............



'cuase "It's Sawrite!



Yes...even one light coat will provide more "tack" than nothing (kinda obvious....)

2 light Duster Coats would be pretty much ideal.

Thinks MississippiMan!!! I appreciate the info. If you ever see a message from me ,again, that sounds bad like that then either someone has Highjacked my account or I DIDNT realize what I typed due to bad grammer, lol. 😁
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This is all wrong.
Which do do believe would provide a more reflective base:
-a layer of Krylon metallic chrome with 2duster-coats of primer over it,
or
-a layer of Rustoleum Metallic Accents sterlingsilver (no primer on top)?

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #2545 of 2549 Old 09-23-2017, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Which do do believe would provide a more reflective base:
-a layer of Krylon metallic chrome with 2duster-coats of primer over it,
or
-a layer of Rustoleum Metallic Accents sterlingsilver (no primer on top)?
Increased Reflection usually means "Glare" unless the term is qualified as being "increased but diffused Gain"

The Metallic Chrome would tend to offer more chance at hot spotting, while not really helping to deepen Blacks. However it's lack of visible metallic particles is a point in it's favor.

The Rustoleum Metallic Accents Silver has components that are well known to deepen Blacks, but it too is well served by having a light coat of Primer. When done in such a manner, the underlying properties that also work toward gain improvement are diffused into the overriding White surface, which also helps to lessen any particle induced artifacts.

Years ago, the Silver Metallic/MississippiMud (SM/MM) was wholly based on a pure undercoat of SM topped with a semi-translucent White coat, and it was quite well received. That application predated the coming focus on Spraying by 2 years, with the SM being replaced by 2nd surface Mirrors. (Light Fusion)

A Metallic Chrome directly over-coated with Paint is essentially "1st Surface Light Fusion"....a application that was very difficult to nail down...so the same caveats still apply.

And finally, to use Chrome, over-top it with Primer, then add another / other opaque coats as well would be an exercise in waste....just as was applying too much paint to a 2nd surface mirror. Go past a point, and "what lies beneath" becomes ineffectual...even moot

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post #2546 of 2549 Old 09-24-2017, 05:27 AM
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The Metallic Chrome would tend to offer more chance at hot spotting, while not really helping to deepen Blacks. However it's lack of visible metallic particles is a point in it's favor.
Have you personally used this Krylon metallic chrome spraypaint before?

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And finally, to use Chrome, over-top it with Primer, then add another / other opaque coats as well would be an exercise in waste....just as was applying too much paint to a 2nd surface mirror. Go past a point, and "what lies beneath" becomes ineffectual...even moot
How many dusters of SilverFire would be best for narhic_fd to spray over a base coat of Krylon metallic with 2dusters of primer before the SF?

If SF was being applied over a layer of pure Rustoleum Metallic Accents sterlingsilver, would 2coats of primer between the Rustoleum metallic and the SF help or hinder?

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post #2547 of 2549 Old 09-24-2017, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Have you personally used this Krylon metallic chrome spraypaint before?


How many dusters of SilverFire would be best for narhic_fd to spray over a base coat of Krylon metallic with 2dusters of primer before the SF?

If SF was being applied over a layer of pure Rustoleum Metallic Accents sterlingsilver, would 2coats of primer between the Rustoleum metallic and the SF help or hinder?
My thinking (that's dangerous), is that i would like to do 1 verrryyyy light coat primer. Something to give the Silver fire to adhere to, and diffuse the return light a bit. A thin coat(sanded smooth afterwards to give silver fire or what ever paint I might use as a top coat, a smooth surface to paint on) for adhering properties without adding to much to the painted top coat.
At this point I just want to see if the idea of a shinny chrome paint, covered by light primer then a top coat of a very translucent paint would give benifits of worth doing.
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post #2548 of 2549 Old 09-24-2017, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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By my reasoning and experience with 1st Surface Mirrored material, I would see that a smoothly applied, very translucent Matte coating would be the most likely effective application, dulling the overt reflectivity enough to prevent localized hot spotting, while also diffusing the reflected light....also a Hot Spotting preventative.

Such a coating might well be accomplished with certain primers (Zinsser Bulls Eye 123 comes specifically to mind) applied extremely thinly but as a complete covering. Too spare, and areas of too much reflectivity can still be detrimental.

Too much, and why bother.

Another thing, while having the Top Coat be exactly the same shade of white so that matching the underlying shade of white will maintain the highest gain factor, if either that White was the top shade, or the paint is Silver Fire, it would be absolutely necessary to apply only and exactly the amount needed to effect a even coating....no more.

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post #2549 of 2549 Old 09-24-2017, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Have you personally used this Krylon metallic chrome spray paint before?
Yes...long time ago. PITA syndrome and so-so results for larger screen applications condemned it to the scrap heap of conceptual ideas. Yeah..it works Ok for smaller expeiments, but as fa as fo larger surfaces, achieving uniformity is not intuitive...it's damnable difficult.

Quote:
How many dusters of SilverFire would be best for narhic_fd to spray over a base coat of Krylon metallic with 2dusters of primer before the SF?
It's a "visual approximation" thing, dependent upon application technique and the chosen shade. As stated above...however many (...o few...) it takes to effect a even coverage....but only that much. There is no fudge factor that allows one to apply an extra coat or two to make up for a previously applied coat that was uneven.

Quote:
If SF was being applied over a layer of pure Rustoleum Metallic Accents sterlingsilver, would 2coats of primer between the Rustoleum metallic and the SF help or hinder?
I would not do that if I was spraying....I would consider the 1st two light Duster coats as being my primer. But the only detrimental thing using a Primer over-underlay beneath the SF would present is a reduction of the benefits that the SM has to offer when / if not muted by the Primer.

Really, the only reason to use a Primer would be because the Krylon was also in use.
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