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-   -   The Official Silver Fire V.2 Thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-diy-screen-section/1311989-official-silver-fire-v-2-thread.html)

MississippiMan 02-01-2011 06:55 AM

OK Everyone,

In cooperation and collusion with PB-Maxx, here is the latest version of Silver Fire.

Primary credit goes to PB-Maxx for these changes, as he is ever diligent in trying to keep both Paint Component quality and availability in line with Silver Fire's performance potential.

The Following edit contains what is the most recent version of the Silver Fire formulation. Previous versions retain their validity, but the most recent versions are geared toward both refining the Formula, and in some instances, replacing components that either are hard / impossible to get, or less effective than the current choices. In the most recent version below, the individual Component amounts within the Reflective Base are graduated depending upon the chosen darkness of the mix upon adding specif amounts of SF Colorant.

*Last update/revision - 06/26/2015

SILVER FIRE v2.5 (Liquitex Based Colorant version)

All Liquitex Paints are found at Micheal's Arts & Crafts, Hobby Lobby Stores, or On-line at sources like www.DickBlick.com. Searches via Amazon and Ebay often return discounted results as well.

(Color Components)
Silver Fire Colorant Update

The following is an update to the Silver Fire v2.5 mix and applies to the colorant components.
Given the independent hard data... and descriptions from independent SF users making screens for themselves...
I am compelled to make these minor changes and make SF even more RGB nuetral.

(Colorant Components) - update 06/26/2015

100ml - filtered/distilled water for rinsing color components from utensils
50ml - Liquitex Basics - Napthol Crimson Red
25ml - Liquitex Basics - Phthalocyanine Green
14ml - Liquitex Basics - UltraMarine Blue
10ml - Liquitex Basics - Cadmium Yellow - Deep Hue

(Viscosity Components)
***Rustoleum's Ultimate Polyurethane Matte Finish (water based) 16 oz.
24 - 36 oz. Distilled or Filtered water*

(Reflective Base Components)*
Silver Fire v2.5 hue (Colorant amount in ounces – oz) ..........1.0 ..2.0 ...3.0.. 4.0 .. 5.0
Rustoleum Metallic Accents – White Pearl* See link below ** .,,,,,,20 ...21.. ,, 22,,..23... 24
Rustoleum Metallic Accents Sterling Silver *** AMAZON ..,,,,,,20. ..21,.., ,22,.. 23 .. 24
Behr 1850 UPW Flat Home Depot .....,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,..10.. 10,.....10....10 ...10.
Liquitex Basics Gold Micheals . .................................................1.50 1.75 . 2.00. 2.25 2.50
The "Non-Bold" figures in the Reflective Base Table above are also "Ounces". As the "darkness" of a SF mix rises, the amount of Reflective Base components also rise

NEW Substitution for Liqutex Basics Silver 09-21-2013 (..this means "use it" if at all possible..)

***Rustoleum Metallic Accents Sterling Silver
(comes in 32 oz container off Amazon )

* Rustoleum Metallic Accents - White Pearl is currently found only at Menards or Online (Amazon).

*The 'Base' & 'Viscosity' components are mixed together separately from the 'colorant' components.

__________________________________________________ __________________
New Formula Addition:

As an alternative to the older RS-MaxxMudd LL & Retro formulas, below is a version hereafter called Silver Fire v2.5 N/C

Rustoleum Metallic Accents – White Pearl 24 oz.
Rustoleum Metallic Accents – Sterling Silver 16oz.
Behr 1750 UPW Flat 16 oz.
Rustoleum's Ultimate Polyurethane Matte Finish (water based) 16 oz.
Distilled Water 32 oz.

The "N/C" designation means that "No Colorant" is added.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________

NOOBS: Read the next section carefully !!!!!

The numerical equivalent of the shade of Gray (SF v2 1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5/3.0/4.0/5.0 on to ad nausea-um ) is equal to the amount "IN OUNCES" of Colorant added to what is a consistent and unchanging* Base combo of reflective and viscosity mixes.
* (...unless we decide to change them, of course. We'll let you know if we do.)

You want a lighter Silvery Gray screen that is excellent for a dedicated Theater yet still assists in improving perceived Contrast? Use 1 to 1.5 "OUNCES" of SF Colorant added to the reflective and viscosity Bases.

A Darker Gray for combating Ambient Light? Add 3.0 "OUNCES" That would make the SF v2 Screen a "3.0 version"

Got a veritable Light Cannon and unusually high Ambient Light situation so that you need something Really Dark? Add 5 "OUNCES" of colorant for a SFv2 5.0 screen.

Questions? Post or PM "BEFORE" you get started. Please. Dedicated build Threads of your own Authoring are always best.

Attention: To mix the prescribed amounts of Base & Viscosity Mixes together, as well as when adding the desired amount of Colorant, it is suggested that a 2 gallon Plastic Container be used. Such Containers will, besides offering a "No Spillage" size to mix things in, not shed Teflon particles off the sides like the metal 1 gallon Cans often do if one barks the sides frequently with the recommended Paint Mixing Tool (see link below)

Important Notice: While thoroughly mixing in the Colorant is essential, do so only by using the Mixing Tool on low speed to avoid the "whipping" that introduces air (bubbles) that will interfere with proper mixing.

** Nylon Paint Strainer: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Trimaco-1...36WF/202061359

The Strainer listed in the Link directly above (...or similar products...) are also usually available at Home Depot or Lowes (...strangely though not at Paint Stores... Go Figure? )
Paper Cone type Strainers "WILL NOT WORK", so if you cannot source the Strainer type listed, order some. They are reusable if rinsed "backwards" immediately after use.

Last warning...........do not attempt to spray without straining the paint. besides eliminating clogging, observing the rate of speed the paint drains through the Strainers in an invaluable help in determining as to if the completed paint mix is Thin enough. It should just barely "poop" in the Strainer, but then drop though at a rate consistent with the steady but even flow from the mixed paint container. (...the flow should be approx the same rate you would pour Milk into a smaller sized Glass.....)

Suggested Electric HVLP Guns:

Earlex 2901 HVLP http://www.lowes.com/pd_570350-97-HV...=50157086&Ntt=
1.0 mm Needle Conversion Kit ( Available Direct from Earlex Part # HVACGEM-10 incl. Needle, Nozzle, Seal $24.95)
800-328-8251[IMG]resource://skype_ff_extension-at-jetpack/skype_ff_extension/data/call_skype_logo.png[/IMG]800-328-8251 FREE ext: 8185

<2nd Choice>

Amazon.com: 1000ml Electric HVLP Air Spray Gun Kit 600W Motor Paint Sprayer 1.0mm Nozzle DIY: Home Improvement

<3rd Choice>
http://www.ebay.com/itm/0417005-Wagner-Control-Spray-Outdoor-HVLP-System-250-watts-/261943656599?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cfd0f 0097


1.0 mm For Graco / Earlex 3500 HVLP
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LightGuyHD 02-01-2011 07:15 AM

THANK YOU so much for this. After realizing I bought the Basics and not the Matt Basics on Sunday, I ordered the proper Matt Basics and paid for quick shipping to beat the blizzard.

So, since I will have the right stuff in the house for both recipes, will one be better than the other?

aharami 02-01-2011 07:43 AM

i think it would be beneficial to know what method you and pb_maxxx employ to come up with these ingredients. Is there any scientific method to this, or is it more of a subjective, until you/he thinks it's right, kind of thing? Not only are the colorants changed from Matt to glossy (or semi-gloss) but the base components were changed also.

The original Silver Fire Thread

Seems like there's more silver in the new formula than gold. How does this along with the glossier color components change the final look of the screen? Will the screen be glossier now? If it is glossier, will it cause any hotspotting issues? Was this formula tested out and proven to be better than original? Or is just more or less the same as the original look?

If one can find the Matt colors, which one should he/she use - the original formula or the new one?

I am in no way questioning the superior knowledge of you or pb_maxxx. In fact, I am very appreciative of your efforts to educate all of us as well as save us a decent amount of money. But I think it would be beneficial for all if there was more transparency in the method employed when developing and testing out these formulas. I think it would help us noobs understand the concepts more.

pb_maxxx 02-01-2011 07:54 AM


the change in color components for the most part is simply one of availability.
(there some advantages but i can explain that later)

we did increase the amounts slightly so that minute errors in mixing are less pronounced.

and since V2 offers increased gain... even a dark SF V2 5.0 is up to 1.1 gain... so this gives those brave folks with 35+ FL the ability to make a SF V2 5.0 screen without having to make a 2nd batch.

pb_maxxx 02-01-2011 08:39 AM


yes there is a method to the madness but in the end, it's the visual performance that takes precedence.

as for the silver and gold...

you have noticed, the V2 most definitely has increased gain over the older version. this was intentional. as 3D active and passive is becoming more relevent in front projection... so too is the combination of increased lumens and gain to combat the loss of polarized light.

the silver/gold base component change is many fold.

1) quality contol. better and more consistent components means more consistent performance across the board for diy'ers willing to invest their time and money.

2) increased gain. the concentration of metallics (mica) within the liquitex silver is highly increased.

3) deceased lamp black with the base of the silver metallic medium. therefore the color of the screen is more determined by the colorants. which is the goal and makes silver fire so special in the first place.

4) decrease graininess up close. with high lumen and ultra contrast 1080p PJ's... the smoother the finish and less grain in the finish... the better the viewing experience. the mica within the liquitex silver/gold is much finer that of the delta craft paints... hence and much more refined screen for todays much more refined PJ's. (this is also dependant of the application of the mix as well...as the smoother the screen mix is applied... the better the quality will be as well)

5) less gold. true. a higher concentration of mica coupled with a deeper hue of gold necessitated that.

6) gloss vs matt... the amounts of colorants used is small enough that it has little effect to the overall gain vs the new base components.

7) semi transparent vs opaque. there are benefits here as well but that can be discussed later.

finally, the newer mix offers a screen that is no less matt than the older mix.

topher0524 02-01-2011 09:40 AM

Hey Guys,
Great post.
I've looked at a bunch of posts showing how well Silver Fire works and now I'm thinking about trying to build my own screen.

To say the least, I'm a little confused as to whether you just mix all the ingredients together and start spraying or if you need to do something else.

If someone could point me to a thread that has a step-by-step guide I would really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance

cbuxton5200 02-01-2011 09:42 AM

I JUST got all the supplies to do v.1 yesterday, would I be better off going to v.2? Could I use the Matt products for the color components since that should have a small effect on the gain? I did want to say thank you for all the work you and MM put into this forum, I can't imagine the hours and the cost of trying to come up with something like this myself, and you two are here providing this expertise for free....amazing stuff

I forgot to ask...does the same 1.0 oz of colorant, 2.0 oz, etc, etc apply to version 2?

NewGate88 02-01-2011 09:47 AM

pb_maxx, if I understand your post, version 2 is more translucent than version 1. If this is the case, does that make version 2 a better performer when sprayed on a mirror?

You also write that someone could do a SF2 5.0 mix without mixing a second batch. That would seem to indicate that the water is included in the ozs (2,3,4, etc.) used in determining the SF mix. True?

This last bit is probably going to be a "duh" moment.

aharami 02-01-2011 09:54 AM

pb_maxx, thanks for the quick reply. Formulas removed as requested. So Im assuming the new formula works the same way as the old. Mix the base components together and mix the color components together separately. Then add specific amount of the mixed color components to the base (thus giving it the SF V2 1.0/2.0, etc names)

I have an Epson 8700 shooting 110" from 12-13' away. This is my basement (click for pic). Most of the time all the lights will be off for movie viewing, but 20% of the time, the rear 4 lights will be on at 50% setting for games and such.

Based on the information above, how many ounces of the colorant do you think I should add?

Also do you have any estimates of what the gain will be for the different versions of SF V2?

MississippiMan 02-01-2011 11:57 AM

Hey everybody currently in the process of doing a SF Screen, and who already have all the Matt Basic components.

Stop fretting.

At some point we had to "realease" this change. At anytime there was bound to be a few who get caught in the middle of the transistion. In truth, PB wanted to have me post the new version 2 weeks ago. But because so many were in the process already, I chose to wait so as to not upend too many set plans.

I could justify waiting because there would be nothing witheld "quality-wise" from those people, and with time getting short, and most of those folks already in possesion of the Matt Basics, it was both a simple courtesy as well as a plea to maintain sanity.

Some facts.

SF Mirrored Light Fusion
This application is the only one whose end result with SF v2 is still problematical. But only barely so.
All the same principles apply, only the amount of paint needed is "vaguely" in question. Why? I haven't done one yet. But had I, I would have appiled one extra finish coat (4... up one from 3 ) because the added translucency and gain allows for such.

It also allows for the use of a darker Shade of SF, because of the combined properties of the Mirror and the new Paint.

Everyone else painting on a Wall or White Board...relax. Nothing has changed except the gain...which gravitates upward by .2 on average at any colorant level. But to be clear, it's NOT the change in the Colorant, it's the change in the Reflective Base that accounts for the increase of gain.

So anyone who has determined a specific level/amount of colorant needed does not have to rethink the equation if they do opt for SF v2.

Those who already set to go with SF v2 , if you want to change anything, do so with the Reflective Base. Or don't change anything. Lots of Folks are gloriously happy with good 'ol SF v1

pb_maxxx 02-01-2011 11:58 AM


the new mix is more translucent. and you are correct that it will benefit applications such as mirror substrates, dibond aluminum substrates, and yes even high gloss substrates such as the thrifty white from HT or the pionexx from menards.

but the greater benefit of the more translucent colorant lies in it's benefit to passive 3D which require polarization and components that do not mask the polarization. it is therefore, a bridge the changes necessary for passive 3D.



yes the new formula works the same way. the base and viscosity compoments are mixed together separate from the color components.

the amount of colorant 1.0oz, 2.0oz, etc added to the mixed base/viscosity components is what gives Silver Fire it's finally name... ie Silver Fire 1.0, etc.

the only difference will be that SF V2 will have a slightly lighter screen color than the V1. therefore a SF V2 2.5 is equal in screen color to SF 2.0.

for you i'd recommend SF V2 2.5.



keep the matt color components. return the delta silver for the liquitex silver.



best guide is the first post of the original silver fire thread. first you mix all of the base and viscosity components together. then you mix the color components together in a separate container... of which you will get about 4.25oz of colorant. then depending on whether you choose to go with SF V2 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, etc... the 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, etc denotes how many ounces of the colorant is added to the base/viscosity mix.

MississippiMan 02-01-2011 01:59 PM

Didn't I just say all that?

Well.... maybe not all those other details. Still..............
Like minds think alike...even just minutes apart.

blizzisu 02-01-2011 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

then you mix the color components together in a separate container... of which you will get about 6oz of colorant.

Aren't there roughly 30mL in a fluid ounce? If so, SF v2 mix instructions would yield 2oz of the colorant and SF v1 mix instructions would yield about 1.3oz of the colorant.

The reason I ask, is because I used about 70mL of the SF v1 colorant (no water, only paint) and am wondering if I did something wrong? If I was wrong, then I think I am closer to SF v1 6.0 than I am to SF v1 2.5 like I thought I was!

Actually, now that I think about it more. I am sure you are supposed to use the suggested water amounts to rinse the paint off the measuring spoons into the rest of the paint therefore incorporating it into the mix. Since I didn't do that, I didn't get all the paint into the mix and wiped the residue off the utensils with a paper towel. With that in mind, I guess I am probably at about a SF v1 4.5 or 5.0. Who knows really. All I know is that I am happy with the results!

Edit...I ran the calculations, and using 70mL of colorant minus the water results in SF v1 5.5. What are the downsides to a mix that dark? If this is off topic, let me know and I'll move it to my personal thread.

MississippiMan 02-01-2011 02:43 PM

Look again. When the 60 ml. of water is included you have 130 ml of volume in the Colorant mix .

Thats just over 4.21 ounces.

The amount of water specified is "mandantory", not a option.
That we mention using it to rinse measuring utensils is so to acheive a closer tolerance of the amount as well ascreate a more fluid-like Colorant that mixes correctly and evenly with the rest of the mix.

pb_maxxx 02-01-2011 04:39 PM


you got me... i corrected my statement to say 4.25oz of colorant.
as for the darker versions of SF... if you've got the lumens to spare... then increased black levels, contrast, and ambient light viewing are the fallout.

topher0524 02-01-2011 08:11 PM

@pb_maxx thanks for clarifying.
The work you and MMan have done and how often and well you respond here is second to none. Greatly Appreciate it.

Concerns I have:

1st, I have a main beam and ductwork running straight through the center of my basement. They are contained inside a soffit
My thought was to ceiling mount a projector to the soffit and go from there. However, the soffits deepest point is 10'4" from the wall I'd like to project onto and according to projector central, using the Epson 8350, at 10ft. would only give me a 76" diagonal and the Optoma HD20 is slightly bigger, maybe 80"
I was hoping for more like 92" to 106".
Is it possible to achieve that size from that distance? or, do i need to go back further?
If the latter, how much further back would i want to go?

2nd, My basement is very well controlled in terms of lighting. There is a small window that can be covered and all the lighting is recessed and on dimmers. Also my walls are a dark earthtone color.

If I go with Silver Fire, would it be best to use the 2oz method?

And finally, if using SF, can I apply it directly to a slab of 1/4" white sintra?
My brother works at a sign company and should be able to get me a great price on the sintra.
He's also thinking about building the frame to hold the screen.
Anyone have any DIY screens that show how they used sintra and mounted it?

Thanks everyone in advance!!!

The image below shows the wall colors, and also my last project "my penny bar"


Kirnak 02-01-2011 09:24 PM

pb-maxxx and Mississippi Man, thank you both for all of the work and effort you guys put into this, and for sharing it so freely!

Two quick questions, can I use the V1 colorant with the V2 base and viscosity components? I mixed up a bunch of the colorant last year, so I have quite a bit left over... Would I still get the benefits Of the V2 mix?


aharami 02-01-2011 09:27 PM

after 1 AC Moore and 2 Michaels, I finally got all the ingredients. The Silver is in short supply everywhere. I couldnt find silver or gold metallic. They were labeled simply as silver and gold. So I just got those.

Instead of Behr #1850, can I use my leftover Behr interior flat UPW ceiling paint #558? It is labeled as UPW and interior flat.

and is the mesh pattern in this 3" strainer fine enough to appropriately judge the viscosity of the SF?

pb_maxxx 02-02-2011 12:53 AM


hobby lobby, michaels, and dick blicks all carry the liquitex basics... and you can bet your bottom dollar they will be in short supply from this thread alone. none of them are expecting some to come in asking for 4 tubes of silver.

as for the UPW... i wouldn't sacrifice the $9 for left over on a precision screen. the behr #1850 is there because it's been proven through testing to be the whitest white of the behr lineup.

while the mesh strainer can be used to measure viscosity, it's main purpose is to strain the large paint particles and clumps of metallics from the paint and therefore keep from clogging your sprayer and making it spit paint rather than spraying a fine consistent spray. having said that, hard to tell from the pic, but i think that strainer might possibly work... it does seem a little porous though.


use your left over colorant. for most applications the main improvemet of V2 are in the base components.



at 9.5ft to the front of your lense, you can definitely get a 95" screen from a 4x8 sheet of sintra cut down to size.

at that short of range and with FL to spare, i'd go with V2 3.0 even in a light controlled room.

MississippiMan 02-02-2011 01:25 AM

That strainer it too "loose.

Anyone who deviates from using the recommended Nylon Sock Strainers takse his end results squarely into his own responsibility. Cone strainers ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. Kitchen Strainers are for FOOD, not Water Thinned Paints.

Nylon Sock Strainers are like...Nylons. Ultra Fine Mesh.

Too many times people try to change this, substitute that...and usually it's all only about convenience. Do as recommended. Make the Mixes using EXACTLY what you are told to use. Don't deviate or experiment.

Let us do the experimenting at being deviates.


BTW....don't rely on that damn Viscosity Cup! If you've read much at all of the prior advice and instructions, you'd note that repeatedly...and always it's stated to never use the viscosity tool to measure how thin the paint should be.

Instead. you start by adding approx 3o % water to the Mix volume and first judge viscosity (lack thereof actually) by noting how fast the mixed paint literally "pours off" the Squirrel Cage nixing tool. You did use one of those...right?

Then you strain the paint, and if it flows through the sock strainer (not a cone type) at at rate equal to the pour-in rate, your good to go, as per the videos linked to just below.....

In this next video, you see how the paint is pooling on top the Filter, making it necessary to pour much more slowly. That is exactly what you DO NOT want to have to do.

To reach the proper lack of viscosity, you might have to first strain, examine the flow-through rate, and if too slow as represented by the last video, rinse out the Flter, add another 2 oz. water, stir and try again. It's worth the effort to do so of course, because once you have achieved the correct thinness, the paint will exit the gun in a finer mist, and at a much more rapid rate.

blizzisu 02-02-2011 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by topher0524 View Post

Concerns I have:

1st, I have a main beam and ductwork running straight through the center of my basement. They are contained inside a soffit
My thought was to ceiling mount a projector to the soffit and go from there. However, the soffits deepest point is 10'4" from the wall I'd like to project onto and according to projector central, using the Epson 8350, at 10ft. would only give me a 76" diagonal and the Optoma HD20 is slightly bigger, maybe 80"
I was hoping for more like 92" to 106".
Is it possible to achieve that size from that distance? or, do i need to go back further?
If the latter, how much further back would i want to go?

Use this website to calculate screen size, projector mounting distance, and fls.


If you can get your lens mounted at 9'6", that will result in a max screen size of 97". 9' gives you 92" which is what I have and am really happy with! I sit about 11' away from screen.

Remeber that the close you mount the PJ, the more fls will be hitting the screen.

topher0524 02-02-2011 04:40 AM

I just check out projector central and this is the results it gave me.
Did I miss something?

If I sent throw distance at 9'6"

Set screen diagonal to 92"

I'm assuming this is just a recommendation and not actually what can be achieved, especially because you just told me you have the same setup. ha

pb_maxxx 02-02-2011 05:13 AM


take a look at the throw range box. for example, when you set the diagonal to 92"...

the throw range is between 9' and 19'3"... which means that placing your PJ anywhere within that range will achieve a 92" diagonal.

topher0524 02-02-2011 05:22 AM

Duh. I completely missed that. Thank you

aharami 02-02-2011 06:14 AM

MM I have no problem getting a nylon sock strainer, but where can I find one? I've never seen one

topher0524 02-02-2011 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by aharami
MM I have no problem getting a nylon sock strainer, but where can I find one? I've never seen one
I was just at home depot and they have a five pack of cone strainers for like .97c.
Mman do you have any experience with those.
If they work I found them right above the Wagner sprayer

DooLocsta 02-02-2011 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by topher0524 View Post
I was just at home depot and they have a five pack of cone strainers for like .97c.
Mman do you have any experience with those.
Check his previous post with the red text about cone filters.

topher0524 02-02-2011 08:24 AM

Also. I went to Michaels to pick up the Liquitex. I was able to get everything except the gold and silver metallic. They only had regular "gold" and "silver". is it the same thing? Does it need to specify "metallic"

aharami 02-02-2011 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by topher0524 View Post
Also. I went to Michaels to pick up the Liquitex. I was able to get everything except the gold and silver metallic. They only had regular "gold" and "silver". is it the same thing? Does it need to specify "metallic"
I think Silver and Gold are the ones. Even Liquitex's color chart doesnt mention "metallic" in the name.

beastaudio 02-02-2011 08:32 AM

They should be at HD or Lowes, just ask. if not, check out an ACE or sherwin williams if you have one close by. perhaps Benjamin Moore as well although I havent been to one before.

They are in a little plastic bag and usually comes in packs of 2-3

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