The Official RS-MaxxMudd V.2 Mix - Page 23 - AVS Forum
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post #661 of 723 Old 05-18-2014, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Adult Beverage View Post

Bumping for more info. With less than optimal light control but primarily night time viewing, which current versions of SF and RS-MM would look better with the HD25e? The W1070?

First off, I would choose the 25e over the w1070 if you can nail the placement with any precision. 40% More lumen output combined with 2x more contrast is pretty much a given choice to make.

Secondly I would use Silver Fire v2.5 3.0

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post #662 of 723 Old 05-18-2014, 12:13 PM
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Thank you for the followup. That was the direction I was leaning since it won't take much more that swapping PJs on the mount for the install. My original question was about the v1.0 of RS-MM Retro I painted the 97" screen for the old PJ. Until I can redo the screen with SF v2.5 3.0 will the older paints (specifically the metallics) be a problem for the higher power HD25e (hotspotting or sparklies)? Instead of getting a new piece of Sintra what is the best way to reuse the existing? Has anyone ever removed the old paint? Can it be done without damaging the Sintra surface?

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post #663 of 723 Old 05-18-2014, 06:38 PM
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Running the 25e on low lamp, with perhaps a small additional adjustment in brightness will suffice to hold things in check on your current screen.

You can easily (...and lightly....) sand the existing painted Sintra, spray a few coats of white primer, lightly sand again then cost with SF

If you want to go to the Trouble, all the paint is water based, so the use of a saturated sponge, and soaking the screen repeatedly and wiping thoroughly will eventually remove all the existing paint.

Don't bother...just sand, prime and spray

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post #664 of 723 Old 08-06-2014, 09:56 AM
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How is the retro formula retroreflective?

I thought the only way to do that is with glass beads?

Is it possible to make a silver version retro? I want one suitable for a CRT. Gray would only make whites gray.
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post #665 of 723 Old 08-06-2014, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
How is the retro formula retroreflective?

I thought the only way to do that is with glass beads?

Is it possible to make a silver version retro? I want one suitable for a CRT. Gray would only make whites gray.
The term "Retro" refers to the mix being a harkening back to mixes that contained higher amount of Silver & Pearl.

...............like "Retro Clothing....or a Retro Dance Party. ie:In Retrospect.

But actually, when formulated a certain way, these mixes can indeed become retro reflective enough to qualify for that designation.

We just don't see either the need for, nor the desirability to make a mix that limits the end user to accepting a narrower viewing cone and suffer from a too bright center image. When PJs were horribly anemic in light output.....yes. Today.....hardly so.

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post #666 of 723 Old 08-06-2014, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
The term "Retro" refers to the mix being a harkening back to mixes that contained higher amount of Silver & Pearl.

...............like "Retro Clothing....or a Retro Dance Party. ie:In Retrospect.

But actually, when formulated a certain way, these mixes can indeed become retro reflective enough to qualify for that designation.

We just don't see either the need for, nor the desirability to make a mix that limits the end user to accepting a narrower viewing cone and suffer from a too bright center image. When PJs were horribly anemic in light output.....yes. Today.....hardly so.
Oh. Woops.

How would you make it a retroreflective? I don't want to end up like that one guy on this forum who had a 200 lb crt fall on his grandmother and killed her. Also zero angle is the only way to get maximum performance and near perfect focus.

I read some posts where Bruce Can was a tease how to apply about 20 micron high refractive with a paint where the beads are colored on one half and clear the other, effectively making a better high power. But he never said how...
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post #667 of 723 Old 08-06-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Oh. Woops.

I read some posts where Bruce Can was a tease how to apply about 20 micron high refractive with a paint where the beads are colored on one half and clear the other, effectively making a better high power. But he never said how...
It never happened.

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post #668 of 723 Old 08-06-2014, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Oh. Woops.

How would you make it a retroreflective? I don't want to end up like that one guy on this forum who had a 200 lb crt fall on his grandmother and killed her. Also zero angle is the only way to get maximum performance and near perfect focus.
The latter is not true, or there would be many people warring over the center seat. Improvements in PJ & Lens design has pretty much destroyed that myth.

Reto can be archived by proportionately increasing metallic content while also using larger flaked Mica. The application of such a mix should be sprayed lest rolling create a flattened layer of mica almost akin to a Mirror (...which is too Retro...)

Some degree of masking with a agent such as UPW white or tinted gray is required, and the mix needs to be thinned using a translucent base like Polyurethane.

Gosh....that's RS_MaxxMudd ! Only we haul up short of creating too much Retro Reflectivity. Honestly, if a Poll was taken....96%+ would express dismissal at having such a surface. Those who do NEED it must also suffer the caveats it brings along with it.

Stranger still...Screen Mfg charge exorbitant prices for screen surfaces that in fact limit the use and / or detract from viewing quality in a number of ways.

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post #669 of 723 Old 08-06-2014, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
It never happened.
What's the solution besides beads?

I heard some people used a spray paint bead clear coat, but the results were lousy. Pink casts, etc.

This guy named Ziggy tried for over three years and got nowhere.

I'm trying to find a good shape G70 for about $500 but I'm apparently a year late. But determination will pay off.

A retroreflective 1.3+ (1.8 ideal) gain would allow me to use that 175" Silver Ticket I've been lusting after. Othwise it's back to my dwarfed 147.
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post #670 of 723 Old 08-07-2014, 04:52 AM
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You might get an argument on that point from the CRT Owners Forum.

Many CRT Owners have used (...and swear by....) the Wilson Art Designer White Laminate. It's slight sheen acted somewhat Retro Reflective, and the lessor lumen output by CRTs seldom made any degree of a hot spot noticeable.

Then again, none of them ever could do a Screen of the size you are imagining using WA-DW.

I truly think your a candidate for S-I-L-V-E-R. I've done 200"+ screens using that Mix, and those PJs had less than 800 lumen (JVC-RS1)

You could construct a screen using Flexi-White, and then spray on S-I-L-V-E-R. It's gain will fall between 1.4 and 1.8, and it is a mix where Retro-Reflectivity combines with a translucent medium to increase viewing cone and enhance Colors & Contrast.

Or you could use the Silver Ticket material, but I don't know why you'd want to spend even that amount when a true DIY project will allow you to accomplish your goals for less.

S-I-L-V-E-R.....Ya gotta spray it on over the course of many fine Dusters....and use the proper technique. But the effort is worth it.

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post #671 of 723 Old 08-07-2014, 06:12 AM
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My problem is I move every two to three years because landlords would rather play chicken with raising rent after the lease is up.

The screen needs to be able to be taken apart. I was hoping Silver Ticket would look good enough without effort on my part. Also worries if you mess up.

A screen I once made with BOC took over a week for a 92" 16:9. That was years ago and I still have bad memories. That small size took forever to stretch like a drum without bunching.

My current screen is a Kilz oil base prime on drywall with Behr Ultra White eggshell.

Next month I'm moving to a house with a two car garage to use as a dedicated theater. Garages don't have a paintable surface.

I was thinking getting a Wagner CS to cover the putty marks with from shelves and other marks. My landlord left a few gallons of Kilz and patching supplies. If I do all the work myself rather than him paying a subcontractor, the cleaning deposit is mine.

That saved money is a theater present. -
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post #672 of 723 Old 08-07-2014, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Tilt,

Your choice is a good one...in fact the only one should you be strictly rolling on the paint. Otherwise I would go with RS-MaxxMudd Standard and avail myself of a better increase in Black Levels the slightly darker mix affords.

If Rolling, you can reduce the water content by 25% and observe the consistency of the mix. It's always easier to add water than to remove it. If your spraying, you would always use the prescribed amount, if not indeed add a small percentage more should you opt to use the suggested 1.0 mm Tip.

Essentially, the water is in the mix to reduce viscosity when spraying, and to increase the level of translucency.
So reducing the water 25% contradicts what you suggested to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by arrabyla30 

So if I'm rolling, I still need the 20 oz. of water, right?



Yes....................,
Regardless, will 5 oz of water make that much of a difference? And I may redo my screen and spray it this time in that case the full 20 oz of water is needed, right?
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post #673 of 723 Old 08-07-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

RS-MaxxMudd LL v.2.1
(for lower lumen pj's and controlled light home theaters)

20 oz. Rustoleum Metallic Accents - White Pearl
10 oz. Liquitex Basics Silver
12 oz. Behr 1850 Ultra Pure White - Flat

12 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
20 oz. distilled/tap water**
---------------------------------
this is the only mix of the rs-maxxmudd family that can be rolled
Would Rustoleum Metallic Accents- Sterling Silver be an acceptable substitute for the Liquitex Basics Silver or is the LBS a denser concentrate of mica that would require a vastly different amount of RMA-silver to equate?

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post #674 of 723 Old 08-07-2014, 03:00 PM
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Would Rustoleum Metallic Accents- Sterling Silver be an acceptable substitute for the Liquitex Basics Silver or is the LBS a denser concentrate of mica that would require a vastly different amount of RMA-silver to equate?
The Rustoleum Accents would now be the "preferred" Silver to use. The biggest difference is that the Rustoleum brand is a bit darker

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post #675 of 723 Old 08-07-2014, 05:16 PM
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The Rustoleum Accents would now be the "preferred" Silver to use. The biggest difference is that the Rustoleum brand is a bit darker
How were these paints developed? Did you, CMRA and PB get someone to test the RGB with a spectrometer? If so what are the values?

Before you stated that I should do silver. Would I still get over 1.3 gain mounting exactly in the center of the screen?
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post #676 of 723 Old 08-07-2014, 05:23 PM
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The Rustoleum Accents would now be the "preferred" Silver to use. The biggest difference is that the Rustoleum brand is a bit darker
That's great news. How about replacing the WhitePearl with more SterlingSilver, would that simply darken the mix further or would it probably introduce problems?

Also, is the entire 2.1 line considered rollable or just this single version (with 2oz more Behr white)?

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post #677 of 723 Old 08-08-2014, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
How were these paints developed? Did you, CMRA and PB get someone to test the RGB with a spectrometer? If so what are the values?

Before you stated that I should do silver. Would I still get over 1.3 gain mounting exactly in the center of the screen?
Our testing was initially done via a outside source, using components that were different than the current ones in use. We were not so much concerned with actual RGB values with the reflective components, as they were basically neutral, and any deviations were corrected using the Colorant, which itself consists of a combination of RGBY tints mixed to produce a additive that combines with the Reflective mix to produce a variety of shades that are all very close to neutral. We have had extensive experience doing this, and it takes no guesswork to adjudge as to if a given component...or completed mix follows the specifications needed to effect the results desired.

This ability weighs heavy on on those who must depend on trying to evaluate a material / surface's worthiness solely on the merits of achieving a a given RGB value. Yes...we did tests, but we chose from the start to not allow the limitations basing viability on such figures. It is a well known fact that the best of Mfg Screens do not follow those guidelines, and that virtually all Screens require at least some Calibration to get to a Neutral stage.

It is telling indeed that many who have used Calibration software have found that virtually no calibration is required with the RS-SF apps, so we did our work well. In the opposite, some chose to judge out efforts solely on the basis of interpreting Graphs, and condemn our efforts if they are not absolutely dead on the spot neutral. We judge the end results by actual performance in the field.

It must work because for over 9 years our DIY paint apps have held sway as the most effective high performance DIY screens there are. That is a statement born out of consistent use and end user evaluation.....not software.

As for S-I-L-V-E-R, your certain to get the gain you desire shooting at dead center, as shooting from a higher or lower point always reduces gain unless a surface is specifically Angular Reflective


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
That's great news. How about replacing the WhitePearl with more SterlingSilver, would that simply darken the mix further or would it probably introduce problems?

Also, is the entire 2.1 line considered rollable or just this single version (with 2oz more Behr white)?
The White Pearl is something that both keeps the Mix lighter in color while adding additional reflectivity, just as the reverse being that adding too much additional UPW would simply mask the reflective aspect further. Of course the UPW is added into the mix specifically for that purpose.

Adding more (...a higher percentage of...) Silver would indeed darken the mix, and actually do so disproportionately compared to also adding a equal additional amount of Pearl along with it. But that is exactly how we do increase gain, by increasing the proportion of Reflective components while also adding in additional UPW the slightly mask the added reflective content. The real key is that more reflectivity is added proportionately than is UPW.

The truth being that to darken the mix too much by adding a dark reflective paint can eventually be self defeating. Silver Fire addresses that by instead doing the "darkening" by the use of a RGBY additive.

Lastly, the more of a percentage of reflective elements in a mix, and the darker the mix, the less likely it can be Rolled effectively. That is why RS-MaxxMudd LL is stated as being the only version that can be dependably rolled.

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post #678 of 723 Old 08-08-2014, 08:41 AM
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I was hoping to replace 1:1 the rustoleum whitepearl with rustoleum Ssilver changing this:
------------------------
20 oz. Rustoleum Metallic Accents - White Pearl
10 oz. Rustoleum Metallic Accents - Sterling Silver
12 oz. Behr 1850 Ultra Pure White - Flat

12 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
20 oz. distilled/tap water**
-------------------------

To this:
30oz Rustoleum Metallic Accents - Sterling Silver
12 oz. Behr 1850 Ultra Pure White - Flat

12 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
20 oz. distilled/tap water**

I'm okay with the mix becoming darker as a result (though not specifically chasing that end), but I'm mostly interested in a bit of simplifying and using what I've got on hand.

I also need to keep it rollable. I'm hoping the change won't break that by being way too dark or reflective, and this should keep the reflective ratio the same and only darken it slightly unless I'm mistaken.

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post #679 of 723 Old 08-08-2014, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I was hoping to replace 1:1 the rustoleum whitepearl with rustoleum Silver



30oz Rustoleum Metallic Accents - Sterling Silver
12 oz. Behr 1850 Ultra Pure White - Flat

12 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
20 oz. distilled/tap water**

I'm okay with the mix becoming darker as a result (though not specifically chasing that end), but I'm mostly interested in a bit of simplifying and using what I've got on hand.

I also need to keep it rollable. I'm hoping the change won't break that by being way too dark or reflective, and this should keep the reflective ratio the same and only darken it slightly unless I'm mistaken.
For this to have a chance you'll have to up the UPW by 50% to 18 oz. Even to 20 oz. It won't grossly lighten the mix, as much as make the translucency drop.

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post #680 of 723 Old 08-08-2014, 07:41 PM
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Because you're lowering the translucency by adding more flat-white instead of lowering water percentage, I'm guessing the water is important for thinning the viscosity (and lengthening dry-time I'd assume) even for a rolled app?

Or could water be safely lowered by this point?

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post #681 of 723 Old 08-09-2014, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Because you're lowering the translucency by adding more flat-white instead of lowering water percentage, I'm guessing the water is important for thinning the viscosity (and lengthening dry-time I'd assume) even for a rolled app?

Or could water be safely lowered by this point?

If the water is left at it's current proportion, but the Paint ratios are increased, then one is in effect lowering the percentage of water to paint.

Also one must note that the Poly percentage remains the same.

A very thin mix high in reflectivity is what makes rolling so problematical a chore. Myself, I have rolled Silver Fire...onto Mirrors no less, but I also could take that chance seeing that I just do those sorts of things. It required that I use ultra low nap rollers, and I only use 6" wide rollers. I applied the paint very wet (...a loaded roller...) and worked both the Row and the wet edge just to the point it was blended.

Over working either or both is what results in Roller marks, and can flatten out the surface's reflective particles making them far too Retro Reflective.

To elaborate further, it is the achieving of a balance between the amount of reflectivity in a mix, and it's translucency / masking that allows for the results experienced. Adding more reflectivity means one must also additionally mask a percentage of that reflectivity. When the paint is sprayed correctly, the translucency of the mix allows what reflectivity is produced by the particles to be refracted within the paint and dispersed more evenly than would be the case if those same particles are rolled into place and are present on the surface, masked or not. So if rolling is to be attempted, it must be done with a light touch, keeping the paint wet and as virgin after the initial lay down as possible. (...essentially for the same reasons and in the exact same way one must apply pure Polyurethane with a brush or roller...)

All told, although my own efforts at rolling were a success, it was nerve wracking and a great worry to bother with, and further reinforced my belief that it was not something to advocate to the DIY masses. Too much risk of having to say , "I'm sorry it didn't work out for you."

OH yeah....when spraying, a water thinned mix actually drys faster. When rolling, it's a toss up between getting runs or over saturating a surface. So like I said, the paint goes up very wet....but not heavily applied. To do that you are constantly moving between Tray and surface, keeping the roller loaded just right, working the wet edges lightly......

Sometimes, if you don't use a Gun to start out with, you want to use one at the end......on yourself.

Upping the Metallic content carries a lot of concerns and considerations, and no small amount of risk. Just increasing the amount of Silver and omitting Pearl, the biggest concern I would have is that the paint might push more into the Blue spectrum, so having the recommended Gold to add would be absolutely essential. Do not forget that.

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post #682 of 723 Old 08-09-2014, 05:02 PM
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Thank you for the thorough explanation as well as rolling tips that I can try to practice for gradually better future results.
Straying farther, do you think using some other light-base flat interior instead of the Behr would have a major effect on the mix? Does the Behr have any particular properties that are used or is the main idea to have a widely available flat-white with a minimum of anything other than KX/white pigment?

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post #683 of 723 Old 08-09-2014, 05:50 PM
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If you have a Glidden Paint Outlet in your area, the Glidden Pro Flat White base is judged to be a high gain ultra white, and correctly balanced paint. But the answer to your question as to why Behr UPW (?) ....because it is available almost everywhere.

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post #684 of 723 Old 08-10-2014, 07:33 AM
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What about substituting some other near-transparent for the poly? I'm mostly curious about ways to make an untinted paint base work. I read somewhere that one of the earlier tests with either this or SF tried using plain accent-base but it tended to brown as it dried if left as a stand-alone layer. As I understand it, the only real difference between accent and light-base is that the light comes pre-loaded with a large amount of KX.

My question would then be; if the main reason to use poly over accent-base is the AB tendency to brown, what about splitting the difference between the AB and the Behr/Glidden-white and using perhaps a medium base or an accent-base with the proper amount of KX pigment so it doesn't noticeably brown, and still has both a level of pigment and translucency?

IF that makes any sense AND has a decent chance of working, what sort of ratio do you think it would entail?

That'd be changing..
30oz RSS
18-20oz Behr/Glidden/light-base
12oz poly
20oz water

To roughly this..
30oz RSS
32oz medium-base
20oz water

Simple
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Last edited by Ftoast; 08-10-2014 at 08:27 AM.
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post #685 of 723 Old 08-10-2014, 11:32 AM
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No...you are laboring under what is a popular misconception (...as did I myself at first...)

The different Bases all have exactly the same amount of KX (Titanium White) The difference lies in the amount in the can.

A Accent base requires only a very small amount of tint to achieve a light Pastel or off-white hue.

On the opposite end of the scale, Deep Base has the least amount of quantity in a Can so as to allow for the substantial amounts of Tints that need to be added.

Simply go to the Store and check out the varying oz. quantities on the different type Bases. It's really just that simple.

Now a little bit of humility factor. The original MississippiMud used Deep base, under my own mistaken belief that the Base was less opaque than UPW. I did not want to "over mask" the reflective particles so I thought that the Base would be the right thing to add. Ha....I could have added plain old UPW just as easily,and in the exact same amount.

That is why such advanced Mixes are divided into a Reflective Mix, a Viscosity Mix, and if applicable, a Colotant Mix.

My Pard, PB-Maxx set me straight, and told me if translucency was what I was after, Poly and Water diluting the mix was the route to take. Together we reasoned out a mix

Bam! ....RS-MaxxMudd, and eventually a short while afterwards....Black Flame / Silver Fire.

Since then, refinements in the basic ingredients (...better Silver / Pearl / Matte Poly instead of Satin...and assorted Tints...) has been all the changes required.

BTW, it was a pure Poly Top Coat that some claimed would yellow, but the fact is it was only those who stated such that ever were responsible for advocating the use of it in a pure form as a Top Coat. We never did. Even so, they insisted that even when mixed (...diluted to less than 1/3 overall mix content...) within a combination of Latex Acrylic Paints, the same would happen. Pure bunk...and really it was only stated otherwise in a futile attempt to discourage people from considering the RS / SF mixes as a whole. Disinformation...that was all it is, and remains to this day.

Still, RS-SF applications persevere.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"


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post #686 of 723 Old 08-10-2014, 03:31 PM
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Does that mean, if I can get my hands on some translucent accent-base (both less in the can AND less KX) that there's something new to play with? If I'm not mistaken about this particular base, it IS widely available. I'll have to get some untinted but shaken then take some pictures.

Assuming I'm not totally wrong about this and the accent is a translucent deep vegetable oil.. could you hazard a guess what the mix should be?

I'm guessing a quick and dirty way would be finding the amount of KX that would turn this accent into a light-base at the given size (quart or gallon) and then use 60-70% and get the Y-value code and give it to the store as a custom mix request.

Simple
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post #687 of 723 Old 08-10-2014, 04:44 PM
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hello? Anyone listening?



I stated that Accent Base has the same amount of KX "percentage-wise" as does it's polar opposite...Deep Base. Just a lot more
Base in the can. A Quart of Deep Base might have only 27-28 oz. in the Can. accent almost a full 32 oz.

NO Base is Translucent. Only certain Faux Finishes.

Kapeche'?

(...if I'm wrong...let me know. My diet of Crow has been suffering of late .... )

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post #688 of 723 Old 08-11-2014, 12:21 AM
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http://nwrenovation.com/painting-art...all-the-bases/
Some good information in here.

Simple
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post #689 of 723 Old 08-11-2014, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Eeeych.............pulling feathers from my teeth..Seems I was going by the availability of the basic Tint Bases available at the Chain Stores and not aware of the several other types available at specialty outlets.

Still, not sure it makes a difference beyond knowing better, because the "hiding" aspect of Titanium in the standard bases is paramount in controlling overt reflectivity.

But it is something to consider in experimentation, if the uncertain results are neither a hindrance nor a concern to the experimenter.

Thanks for the lesson. I'll stop now before I have to eat the Beak and Feet.

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post #690 of 723 Old 08-18-2014, 11:03 AM
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Is this mix considered RS Maxx-Mudd "standard"?

20 oz. Rustoleum Metallic Accents - White Pearl
10 oz. Rustoleum Metallic Accents - Sterling Silver
12 oz. Behr 1850 Ultra pure White - Flat
12 oz. Minwax Polycrylic Satin Finish
20 oz. Distilled water

OK, please don't jump on my fragile ego here but I can't seem to find the mixing instructions. Using the links on the first page of this thread I've been back to the update in 2011.. can't find it. In addition, I can't seem to get the link to the original forumla to work. Any help is much appreciated. I know it's gotta be easier than this to find right?
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