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post #1 of 44 Old 08-21-2011, 03:11 AM - Thread Starter
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............between White and a highly reflective Gray.
Recently a call went out to see some examples, and this Thread is a direct result.

A little "pre-presentation" background.

110" diagonal Sintra panel inset into 16" deep x 110" wide by 70" tall Shadowbox. Overlaid onto the Sintra Screen is a 3' x 5' piece of Sintra S[rayed with SF v2.1 5.0 (*5 oz. Colorant to mix)

Epson 8700ub 14' throw Ceiling Mounted w/18" Drop Pole

Fairly high Ambient light from two opposing Windows 15' back from each side of Screen

"INTENSE" Floods in Can Light Fixtures almost directly overhead of the Screen Box

OK......here's a look at the Screen:



In the next six shots, the Topmost image is in the natural Sun supplied Ambient light, while the Bottom image is getting washed by the Incandescent Can/Floods:













So there it is...a White to Advanced Gray comparison....again.

A few more for good measure..........





Now as of today, the Screen itself is now complete with a coating of SF v2.1 4.0 (*5 oz. Colorant to mix)

I will follow up soon with reversed imagery showing White Sintra overlaid against the Silver Fire.

So...................comments?

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post #2 of 44 Old 08-21-2011, 05:45 AM
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Could you briefly explain how you have mounted the sintra so flush to the wall? Thanks
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post #3 of 44 Old 08-21-2011, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Glue. White Lightening Adhesive Caulk to be precise, applied in continuous 1/4" thick beads from Top to Bottom spaced 1" apart, then troweled out to create an almost evenly covered pad across the surface.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #4 of 44 Old 08-21-2011, 09:01 AM
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Which do you prefer, its tough to tell through screen shots, but i do see the contrast..
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post #5 of 44 Old 08-21-2011, 07:16 PM
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Did you mean:
White Lightning 3006 All Purpose Adhesive Caulk ?

They have many products
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post #6 of 44 Old 08-21-2011, 07:34 PM
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Looking forward to the reverse imagery.

"The purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis." Spock, Mark of Gideon, TOS
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post #7 of 44 Old 08-21-2011, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookout321 View Post

Did you mean:
White Lightning 3006 All Purpose Adhesive Caulk ?

They have many products

Dat's it.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #8 of 44 Old 08-21-2011, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Davinleeds View Post

Looking forward to the reverse imagery.

Might be as soon as tomorrow PM

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #9 of 44 Old 08-22-2011, 08:12 AM
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the hardest thing explain to some folks would be... is with THAT much ambient light... that they are actually visually seeing the white screen itself...and it is adversly affecting what may appear brighter on the white screen... which is really incorrect... ie colors that shades TOO light and very light shades of gray that are now white.

before you do the reverse imagery... it might be affective to place the dark screen on the opposite side of the screen...so you have an idea of what the other side should look like.
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post #10 of 44 Old 08-22-2011, 09:39 PM
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Cool! thanks for adding the screen pics. It was actually i who asked and i can deff see the difference in the way the pic comes out in contrast. What paint mix did you use for the gray screen??
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post #11 of 44 Old 08-23-2011, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post

Cool! thanks for adding the screen pics. It was actually i who asked and i can deff see the difference in the way the pic comes out in contrast. What paint mix did you use for the gray screen??

SF v2.1 4.0 (*4 oz. Colorant to mix)

"That's what I said!"

Everything is complete....however I must wait until Wednesday to return to take some more "reverse" shots.


Got a few though, of the completed Theater just below.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #12 of 44 Old 08-23-2011, 07:34 AM
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I am convinced !!!!

Thanks MM for all yor efforts. Bought myself your recommended sprayer too.

(BTW...I hope that is a RETURN and not a SUPPLY grill just above the projector.....DUST BLOBS)
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post #13 of 44 Old 08-23-2011, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TeeCue View Post
I am convinced !!!!

Thanks MM for all yor efforts. Bought myself your recommended sprayer too.

(BTW...I hope that is a RETURN and not a SUPPLY grill just above the projector.....DUST BLOBS)
That's a AC Supply Grill. Can't be helped. However despite all the FooFaRa about Dust Blobs, for anyone adept enough to use a Screw Driver and a Can of Compressed Air, accessing the Light Path and blowing any "post Receipt" Dust Blobs out is really a LOT easier than simply re-boxing a unit back up and exchanging it.

The real truth is this....Epson is the ONLY LCD Mfg willing to just exchange a unit out of hand for such a minor occurrence. In short...they are spoiling people rotten.

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post #14 of 44 Old 08-23-2011, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Everything is complete....however I must wait until Wednesday to return to take some more "reverse" shots.


Got a few though, of the completed Theater just below.
And here they are.

110" diagonal SF v2.1 4.0 painted Sintra Screen



I didn't have time to reverse shoot "White over SF" yet, but I did overlay the original SF v2.1 5.0 3' x 5' panel.

That's actually "all good" because one can also see how the step down into a darker Sf can make a noticeable difference.










Kinda makes me wanna give it a big hug.....


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post #15 of 44 Old 08-23-2011, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post
Cool! thanks for adding the screen pics. It was actually i who asked and i can deff see the difference in the way the pic comes out in contrast...
well then...
here's a couple of screenshots to chew on...
of note are the silver fire 7.0 top right and the silver 8.0 in the center



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post #16 of 44 Old 08-23-2011, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Show off.....


......but I like it, I LIKE IT !

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post #17 of 44 Old 08-24-2011, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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115" diagonal SF 2.1 3.0

Epson 9350 @ 12.5' Throw

Scads of Light from 6- 6" 90 watt Spots and 2- Sconces

The difference between a Matte White Reference and the 3.0 surface.



Here we go....









All should note that the images taken (except the 1st) were all taken from over 20' from the Screen, so no attempt to allow the camera to compensate by using Zoom was attempted....save to frame the desired wider area.

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post #18 of 44 Old 08-24-2011, 09:28 AM
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So what sample was the projector calibrated to for gray scale?

What was the lighting level during calibration?


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post #19 of 44 Old 08-25-2011, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=bud16415;20861866]So what sample was the projector calibrated to for gray scale?
Quote:




I did no calibration on either the 8700 or 9350 for either/any series of shots. Settings were "Out of the Box". Although doing such might have given the darker Gray screens a even decidedly better advantage, no such leeway was deemed necessary due to the inherent properties and advantages the Screen formulas showed. For my part, I prefer the increased levels of Black rendition more that trying to boost whites back up to a point where they might have looked closer to what is represented on the White examples.

Colors certainly did not need any such assistance.

But I will be doing some calibration before too long.

No...the sole intended purpose was to respond to another request to see the difference between White & Gray, and naturally I did so using what I felt was the best possible method to illustrate such examples. I also might add that the shots were taken at the end of a day's work, or while working on other items, and so were not really dedicated efforts as much as time and opportunity being taking advantage of.


Quote:


What was the lighting level during calibration?

I show three levels of lighting.

Daylight Ambient
Directed Incandescent
Indirect Incandescent Ambient

Glad to see you post, Bud, and thanks for the Prompt. The first location might be difficult to retake after a Calibration because it's a location already now in heavy use and therefore might pose an inconvenience to the End User.

But the second? Well, I have a key, the house is empty for two weeks starting yesterday, so I just might decide to give it a go and show those shots taken once again after a round of calibration.

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post #20 of 44 Old 08-25-2011, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

...For my part, I prefer the increased levels of Black rendition more that trying to boost whites back up to a point where they might have looked closer to what is represented on the White examples.

Colors certainly did not need any such assistance.

Here's to the point... with that much ambient light present whether direct/indirect or daylight... on a white screen, no amount of calibration will get back the black levels to match any advanced grey screen... as black levels on a white screen are not real... they are nothing more than perceived. if you can SEE your screen, then the deepest black level you will get is the screen itself (the real color)... so if you can SEE the white of your screen... then kiss your perceived black levels GOODBYE!

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post #21 of 44 Old 08-26-2011, 06:17 AM
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One thing immediately struck me: ambient incandescant is MUCH worse than ambient sunlight!
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post #22 of 44 Old 08-26-2011, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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when it's coming from directly overhead from Cans w/Floods in 'em.....of course. The other issue is the "yellowing" such artifical Tungsten bulbs produce.

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post #23 of 44 Old 08-26-2011, 07:00 AM
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Yes, that's what I noticed - the awful, unnatural yellowing of incandescant lamps.
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post #24 of 44 Old 08-26-2011, 11:35 AM
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PB, I am really liking those 7.0 and 8.0 you have. Do you have any shots at night with lights off? What are those other grey ones around the 7.0 and 8.0?Are they to dim if you use an Epson 8700 calibrated which would put it in the 500-600 lumen range I think?
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post #25 of 44 Old 09-01-2011, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay7 View Post

PB, I am really liking those 7.0 and 8.0 you have. Do you have any shots at night with lights off? What are those other grey ones around the 7.0 and 8.0?Are they to dim if you use an Epson 8700 calibrated which would put it in the 500-600 lumen range I think?

Ok...here below are some ambient and in-the-dark images that are also showing the "White vs Advanced Gray" difference.

These images are coming from an Epson 9350. Same PJ as the 8350. Same Contrast and Lumens. Pro Model (extra Features-Black Case) Color Mode: Natural (@ Normal Lamp output)

If the PJ was a 8700, the results would be just as striking...if indeed very much more so.

The first two sets show considerable ambient light from 6 Spots and two Sconces.





This next image shows the difference between the 1.2 gain White material (Sintra) and the 1.2 gain Silver Fire v2.1 3.0

The bottom 4 insets show the difference both look like in ambient and near total darkness



And this last grouping is all about how much difference there is really between both types of surfaces seen in the same amount of light from both sources. The bottom grouping was taken in "near darkness' and "total darkness" yet still there is an obvious difference between the White and Advanced Gray SF v2.1 3.0




That is a DIY Screen made from White Sintra material cut to 106" x 60" and sprayed with the Silver Fire.

Total cost...including the Spray Gun and Black Velvet Trim? $185.00

It's performance matches or exceeds Mfg Screens costing over 10x as much.

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post #26 of 44 Old 09-05-2011, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

115" diagonal SF 2.1 3.0

Epson 9350 @ 12.5' Throw

Scads of Light from 6- 6" 90 watt Spots and 2- Sconces

The difference between a Matte White Reference and the 3.0 surface.



Here we go....









All should note that the images taken (except the 1st) were all taken from over 20' from the Screen, so no attempt to allow the camera to compensate by using Zoom was attempted....save to frame the desired wider area.

MM - In the first picture in the post quoted above, what are you using for trim? I like how it angles in at the end. The trim I found at Home Depot does not appear to angle that much.

Also, when in the first pictures you posted in the thread in which you put the sintra up with glue, do you ever have problems with it falling down after some years? Do you just put the trim right up to the edge of the sintra?
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post #27 of 44 Old 09-06-2011, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay7 View Post

MM - In the first picture in the post quoted above, what are you using for trim? I like how it angles in at the end. The trim I found at Home Depot does not appear to angle that much.

I used some 3.25" MDF base I found at Lowes for that one, and it had a smooth, sloped Curve, not a "Milled" edge made to look like Capped Trim.

However I have always found that the Milled Edge variety usually slopes out well when the velvet is wrapped tight, bridging the rise in Milling in a very smooth and precise angle..

Quote:


Also, when in the first pictures you posted in the thread in which you put the sintra up with glue, do you ever have problems with it falling down after some years? Do you just put the trim right up to the edge of the sintra?

Much depends upon the surface applied to. I have found that smooth, tightly cured painted walls sometimes makes for poor adhesion when using adhesives like the White Lightning Adhesive Caulk. I focused on using that particular brand because it's water based (...did not eat into paint/plastic/Mirrors...) and has a workable "work time". Not very expensive either.

So I apply 1/4" thick beads 3/4" apart and trowel them out lightly to evenly spread them out/together. That creates such a uniformly distributed adhesive footprint that it's virtually assured the sheet will stay plastered up against the wall.

But as mentioned, sometimes it fails to stick well, especially on satins or semi-glosses, and terribly so if the wall is dusty or the like.

Now that I use Sintra predominantly, I can use the Power Grab that has 15-20 minute work time. It usually takes 6 tubes to do a 120" diagonal screen.

But for the record, I don't like using the less expensive 3 mm Sintra with adhesive because even when you trowel out an adhesive, if you applied tall enough beads that allow for effective spreading, and don't get then spread out completely even across the material, you WILL have ridges under the material that will at least been noticeable in the "tactile" sense. 6MM never presents that issue.

Of course if I overlay my Trim on the Sintra and shoot/hammer Finish nails through both the Trim and Sintra into the wall (studs or even just Drywall) the material isn't ever gonna budge, even if I used the Adhesive Caulk sparingly. The screen shown directly above was done in such a manner, using both adhesive and overlaid Trim.

Redundancy is a DIY'ers best insurance against "hair pullin'" frustration. But you do have to be able to have the Sintra cut between 2" minimum to 3" maximum larger all around the anticipated screen size to allow for such an overlay method. Butting allows for that extra size bump.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #28 of 44 Old 09-06-2011, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

I used some 3.25" MDF base I found at Lowes for that one, and it had a smooth, sloped Curve, not a "Milled" edge made to look like Capped Trim.

However I have always found that the Milled Edge variety usually slopes out well when the velvet is wrapped tight, bridging the rise in Milling in a very smooth and precise angle..



Much depends upon the surface applied to. I have found that smooth, tightly cured painted walls sometimes makes for poor adhesion when using adhesives like the White Lightning Adhesive Caulk. I focused on using that particular brand because it's water based (...did not eat into paint/plastic/Mirrors...) and has a workable "work time". Not very expensive either.

So I apply 1/4" thick beads 3/4" apart and trowel them out lightly to evenly spread them out/together. That creates such a uniformly distributed adhesive footprint that it's virtually assured the sheet will stay plastered up against the wall.

But as mentioned, sometimes it fails to stick well, especially on satins or semi-glosses, and terribly so if the wall is dusty or the like.

Now that I use Sintra predominantly, I can use the Power Grab that has 15-20 minute work time. It usually takes 6 tubes to do a 120" diagonal screen.

But for the record, I don't like using the less expensive 3 mm Sintra with adhesive because even when you trowel out an adhesive, if you applied tall enough beads that allow for effective spreading, and don't get then spread out completely even across the material, you WILL have ridges under the material that will at least been noticeable in the "tactile" sense. 6MM never presents that issue.

Of course if I overlay my Trim on the Sintra and shoot/hammer Finish nails through both the Trim and Sintra into the wall (studs or even just Drywall) the material isn't ever gonna budge, even if I used the Adhesive Caulk sparingly. The screen shown directly above was done in such a manner, using both adhesive and overlaid Trim.

Redundancy is a DIY'ers best insurance against "hair pullin'" frustration. But you do have to be able to have the Sintra cut between 2" minimum to 3" maximum larger all around the anticipated screen size to allow for such an overlay method. Butting allows for that extra size bump.

If you overlay the trim, what do you do with the part of the trim that hangs over the sintra? Due to the size I am going for (114"), that makes the screen 55" and change high. If I get a full sheet of sintra at 60" high and 3.25 inch trim all the way around, the top and bottom trim outside edge of the trim would be outside the sintra. Therefore, since it would be about 1/4 inches back, do I need shims or something along the outside edge of the trim so it lays flat and does not lay on the sintra in the inside edge and lean back towards the outside edge?
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post #29 of 44 Old 09-06-2011, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay7 View Post

If you overlay the trim, what do you do with the part of the trim that hangs over the sintra? Due to the size I am going for (114"), that makes the screen 55" and change high. If I get a full sheet of sintra at 60" high and 3.25 inch trim all the way around, the top and bottom trim outside edge of the trim would be outside the sintra. Therefore, since it would be about 1/4 inches back, do I need shims or something along the outside edge of the trim so it lays flat and does not lay on the sintra in the inside edge and lean back towards the outside edge?

I take the trimmed off pieces of Sintra and use them as shims. The stuff is easy to work with using either a sharp Utility Blade and straight edge or small Circular saw w/paneling blade.

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post #30 of 44 Old 09-17-2011, 08:54 AM
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the vast majority of grey screens DO NOT have an improvement in contrast vs.unity gain white screens.

yep i said it.

in fact, the vast majority of grey screens only shift the contrast rather than extending it vs a unity gain white screen. so while grey screens make use of the only color that projectors can't produce...black...for a deeper percieved bottom black level...they also lower/crush white levels. the darker the grey screen solution...the deeper you can push perceived black levels but the deeper you also have lower/crushed white levels. but it's actually more than that, because the grey paint or coating on the screen is also a medium... and that medium does some pretty nastly things like skewing color hues and making for dirty yelllows and facial tones, crushing light reds and the list goes on and on.

in fact, i can count on practically 1 hand... the number of manufacturered screens (4) and (2)diy grey/black screen solutions that can maintain the white levels of unity gain white screens... even within a limited viewing cone... and therefore legitimately lay claim to a screen with increased contrast over white screens.

so here's the skinny... and i do mean skinny...
because not a single person (minus MM or JbellJell) or diy grey/black screen solution in the 5 years that i've been a member of avs...minus one... that can show me a single screenshot where the white levels are equal to a unity gain 1.0 gain white screen (or even .9 gain boc)...whether in ambient light or dedicated...while obviously also delivering a deeper perceived black level (which is the easy part for a grey screen).

and i'll go one step further, they can't do it without altering the proper color hues, or displaying dingy yellows, or dirty fleshtones as well.

so this is my challenge to anyone using any diy grey screen solution... show me a screenshot that legimately shows a combination of black and white levels where the white levels of the grey screen are equal to or greater than a decent size white sample. in fact, show me how light yellows and flesh tones aren't crushed and dingy vs the white sample. and finally, that the color hues are not skewed (ie wrong shade) vs the white sample.

if anyone can show me those things... they can show prove to me contrast improvement over a white screen... and therefore, the bigger, better picture.

looking forward the screenshots.
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