Upgraded PJ. Change from SILVER to AT spandex? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 50 Old 05-11-2012, 01:39 PM
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I was using blackout cloth, from Joann's before and the image looks way better on the spandex. I watched half of Avatar the other day and the picture was absolutely stunning. Being able to have the speakers behind the screen also gives my room a more theater like feel. I would recommend the change.
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post #32 of 50 Old 05-11-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCHNEEDOO View Post

I was using blackout cloth, from Joann's before and the image looks way better on the spandex. I watched half of Avatar the other day and the picture was absolutely stunning. Being able to have the speakers behind the screen also gives my room a more theater like feel. I would recommend the change.

Do you have a link of where i should get it from and exactly what kind?
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post #33 of 50 Old 05-11-2012, 02:02 PM
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This is what I used and I think DevonS also used the same. http://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/6409 Shipping was very quick.
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post #34 of 50 Old 05-14-2012, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Yep, that was the stuff. I also used a layer of cheap basic black spandex behind the silver so you can't see thru the screen. I built a frame out of 1x4 boards and before assembly I ran it thru my router table to put two grooves/channels in the back and used window screen spline to secure the spandex to the wood. easy-peasy!

Built on a tight budget: The Cheap Seats Cinema
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post #35 of 50 Old 06-29-2012, 10:03 AM
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DavidK442,

As you did not mention what PJ your using I had to search out a few of your posts on other Forums.

Try out your Epson 8350 on Living Room mode....or even Dynamic, then calibrate the PJ to the screen's Gray shade.
(...if you haven't already done that....that could be a big reason for your small degree of dissatisfaction...)

Also, and another thing you should try is placing the White spandex directly behind and against the Gray. Even with the tight weave of the Gray, you are leaking substantial lumen out the back, and that results in probably 25% less Foot lambert of reflected brightness.

Those who have had the best success at achieving the best image quality have followed that dictate. And what's really fortunate is that the additional Fabric does not seem to affect the quality of frequency response enough to even matter, seeing that the first layer doesn't seem to affect it at all!

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #36 of 50 Old 07-12-2012, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey DavidK... I'll have to go over the old thread and see where I left off. I'm terrible at keeping up with documenting the upgrades. Once the upgrades start ramping up I end up enjoying them rather than evaluating and documenting them. rolleyes.gif

Unfortunately, now it's time for an AVR upgrade since my Onkyo 605 stopped giving me video.

I need some calibration on my setup too. I did run thru a calibration disc, but still notice that dark scenes are really crushed. My screen is the silver spandex over black. Colors and bright scenes are amazing, but I'm just not loving horror flicks down there right now. frown.gif

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post #37 of 50 Old 07-13-2012, 01:20 AM
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Silver backed with White will take care of that "Crush" , DevonS

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #38 of 50 Old 07-13-2012, 06:41 AM
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DevonS, I have sitting on my floor waiting for me when I get home the silver and white spandex. I will be glad to throw up some pictures on here tonight if you would like me to. I have a completely light controlled basement room so let me know if you would like silver over white and/or the white over the silver for comparison. I am at work at the moment and am unable to look back through the thread but if you need a little artificial light or anything for comparison I have no problem trying my best to take pictures with different lighting.

I would have had it put up last night but I am trying to figure out the screen size I want and how to treat my walls and ceiling. Thumb tacks galore after work to stretch the bad boys out

(I have the Epson Home Cinema 8100)
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post #39 of 50 Old 07-13-2012, 06:45 PM
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Here are some comparison shots of the silver on top of the white (left half) and White by itself over my wood paneling held up by push pins. Excuse the shift in exposures. (Images 4 and 5 of this set are very indicative of the actual quality )

400

400

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It was in a completely light controlled room (except for the light being reflected back from the walls and ceilings. The silver over the white just didnt have the pop that the white on the paneling only had.

Below is the white completely over the silve:

400

400

400

400

Here are some shots from the opening of The Dark Knight with the white over the silver:

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You can see all of the light being reflected in this one. It is about 50% blown out of proportion due to the camera but it is very noticeable.

400

400

Hope this helps. The silver over the white still looked great but in my light controlled room when it was projected onto the white it just felt "right" and thats the way I am leaning towards layering when I frame tomorrow.
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post #40 of 50 Old 07-14-2012, 06:30 AM
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I agree with your determination as far as the White over Silver looking better than the reverse in your specific instance. Having a Silver undercoating beneath a White surface was always the best of the DIY paint applications for a controlled to semi-controlled lighting situation produced Black levels that were superior to White alone, and that surely shows up in your images.

The problem back then was that what with most people Rolling on paint (2003-2005) that it was very difficult for people to get just the right amount of paint over the Silver to have it be thin enough to let a decent amount of light pass through to react to the Silver, and then be able to intermingle with the topmost image.

No issues in that regard using a far more porous Spandex.

It is obvious to me however that in fact, although the images on the White alone look "brighter", they are blown out as far as color saturation and a natural look of depth as opposed to the Silver/White combo. Bright isn't all it's cracked up to be, and obviously your White / Silver example shows that to be true as one can see that the darkened returned light beneath the White serves to curtail the overly bright, almost washed out appearance of the White Spandex alone. But there is a distinct difference in image quality in the first Silver over White example shown, where there is ambient light present. The White side is decidedly washed out.

Besides all that, since the Silver Spandex is not in fact a "reflective-oriented" material, the darker color serves to attenuate light a bit. Not much....but enough to be obvious in any direct comparison with a pure White material.

Such is why .....for the most part, we resist the practice of making such obviously weighted comparisons between a White and a Gray, as the end results will always be slanted toward the White surface if sheer brightness is what is being considered as being most desirable.

And it's fur shur that brightness plays a strong part in self-determinations made by many, especially those who are new to the Front PJ genre. It's only when an obvious difference is shown that pre-set ideas and preferences tend to get reversed.

I think that if you had a more proficient PJ with at least 1800-2000+ lumens (...or the 8100 w/new Bulb) that the initial showing by the Silver over White combo would have been much more impressive. One thing that would have, or rather obviously did benefit the 8100's performance with Silver over White was the increased appearance of having deeper contrast. Fir those who have much newer PJs such as the Beamers from Epson / Optoma / Viewsonic and the like, I really do think that your results do not give enough emphasis as to the benefit of having the Silver on top.

But even so, for those with a dedicated and light controlled Theater, and who are especially are looking for a viable alternative to the far more expensive Acoustically Transparent Mfg Screen materials, what you've shown is of almost immeasurable value. The White over Silver does in fact look splendid.

I've taken the liberty of cut & pasting excerpts of the two identical scenes that are both shown with the varying Silver/ white combos.

The bottom image is of course White over Silver

SilveroverWhiteoverSilvercomparison.jpg

As seen, the depth of shadows, and the richness in color saturation is very apparent in both the Silver over White and the White over Silver combos, but lacking in the "White only" representation. Brightness is the only real advantage the "White only" has over the other two. The White over Silver does show a slight uptick as far as brightness as compared to the Silver over White, but not a whole lot.. Really, it's the presence of enhanced contrast that spells the difference over "White only."

Memphisanid, we all owe you a well deserved thank you for the effort you put out! So now comes the caveat. Using the same chosen scene (...how about the Night shot of the Joker looking through the Armored Truck's windshield...) can you put up a shot of the Silver over White that shows the Silver completely covering the White, the reverse as far as White over Silver, and one each of both alone? and take at least one shot of each in ambient light? If you can do that, such a complete dossier of examples for comparison would be well nigh invaluable to those considering a Spandex solution, and it will most assuredly find it's way into the "Advanced DIY Screens" compilation I'm making for potential "Sticky Status".

No matter what else, ya dun gud. cool.gif

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post #41 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 02:02 PM
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DavidK442,

Good Man!

I'm sure many will welcome that revision as to date I do not recall anyone else ever having reported such surface aberrations using the most popular Silver Moleskin Spandex.

Sooooooo.........where are those Screen shots, Brother? cool.gif








biggrin.gif

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post #42 of 50 Old 09-03-2012, 01:35 PM
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Hi all - I also posted elsewhere - I am going to go with silver over white but wanted to know which side of the silver spandex are you projecting on? On side looks shinier than the other.

Thanks,
Jim
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post #43 of 50 Old 09-03-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyk36 View Post

Hi all - I also posted elsewhere - I am going to go with silver over white but wanted to know which side of the silver spandex are you projecting on? On side looks shinier than the other.
Thanks,
Jim

use the non glossy side

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post #44 of 50 Old 09-03-2012, 04:42 PM
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Great - Thanks MM!

I am assuming the underlying white shouldn't matter which side?
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post #45 of 50 Old 09-05-2012, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyk36 View Post

Great - Thanks MM!
I am assuming the underlying white shouldn't matter which side?

Probably not, however it would be best to play it safe and use the flat (matte )side to avoid any chance of glare coming through on very bright content.

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post #46 of 50 Old 11-08-2012, 12:15 PM
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I originally used black spandex as the backer for the Silver Moleskin. I had been hearing about the benefits of using white spandex as a backer so I tried it and have been impressed with the results. My projector is a Sony VPL-AW15 paired with a Panasonic DMP-BDT500 player. I did notice a brightness boost and I'm glad I made the switch. This screen shot is silver over white.

DSCN2403.jpg
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post #47 of 50 Old 11-19-2012, 09:05 PM
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I would be interested in seeing a direct comparo of the black backed moleskin vs the white backed silver moleskin
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post #48 of 50 Old 11-20-2012, 03:56 AM
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The visual differences between a reflective backing and a absorptive backing are tied to the amount of light that strikes the Screen surface, as well as the reflectivity / absorbancy quotient of the screen surface itself. Light lost and not reclaimed...even in the smaller amounts, means attenuation regardless of the Screen surface used.

Front / Rear

Bright White w/Black :good

Gray w/White :good

White w/Silver :good

Silver w/Black :poor unless dealing with uber-lumen output

While some combinations can be more broadly geared, DavidK442 has it right....one must experiment to find the balance needed for an optimal end result, and much of any satisfaction will be wholly dependent upon the tastes of the viewer. One size does not fit all needs, PJ & room specs, or personal tastes....but some combos do go further than others do.

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post #49 of 50 Old 11-20-2012, 04:10 AM
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Thanks. Just trying to sort out if I am gonna use the silver metallic as the backer or the back side of that which is white with a sheen to it.
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post #50 of 50 Old 11-20-2012, 04:17 AM
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I'd use the SM as you stated it's matte. Sheen can be risky when the overlaying material is as porous as spandex. One needs a uniform degree of reflectivity, and anything with any real degree of sheen risks transferring a pinpoint reflection of the light source

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