Undo Goo Part 2 Or Parting is Sweet Sorrow - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 03-12-2012, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I started an undo Goo thread back in 2009, but couldn't part with my NEC XG 110 LC CRT projector.

I've had the XG for the last nine years. The thing has been beautiful. But I just picked up the deal for the JVC RS40. I hope I like it, but that remains to be seen. It's hard parting with the XG.

Anyway, I have a dedicated home theater. The JVC will be approximately 10 feet from a home made screen out of sheet rock which currently has Screen Goo. It is 84" wide. I think the goo will be too high gain, but am uncertain. Plus there are some roller marks, which I think the new projector will expose more often than the CRT because of more brightness. I currently only see them during hockey games and only once in a movie (Italian Job in the Alps).

Everything I've read lately seems to indicate that a flat gain (1.0) is desirable with the high contrast digital projectors.

Is there a paint formula for this? Also, please correct me in my assumptions if they're wrong. Let's not narrow it to paint, what other diy solutions are there? I did read recently about a white laminate, Parkland? But I'm unsure of the name.

I also may decide to try the goo first, just to see. But I think it will have to go. I'd appreciate any input.
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post #2 of 36 Old 03-12-2012, 11:11 PM
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1. You won't be too bright after the RS40 is calibrated and set to a "best Mode".

2.A sanding, a coating first of light Gray primer (Rolled) another sanding, and 3 sprayed coats of RS-MaxxMudd LL and you'll have a most excellent Screen that will outperform your old GOO screen by a wide margin.

3. White laminate can/will hot spot and is fragile & expensive (+ Framing is required)
4. Parkland is no longer a viable option
5.Sintra is a potential "hang & Shoot" board, but unless it's absolutely pristine, most all opt to paint on it.

Simply put, with the resolution, contrast, and image quality of the RS40, you want a smooth, virtually flawless surface with approx 1.2 gain and a small degree of contrast enhancement. That will mean doing a few things optimally and correctly. No "half-measures" or I guess I could'a / should'a s.

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post #3 of 36 Old 03-13-2012, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you!

MaxxMudd LL v.2.1?

Mud sounds dark. Is it just a name?
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post #4 of 36 Old 03-13-2012, 03:44 PM
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Crescent,
I would try the simplest approach first. If you have enough coats of Goo on there, then try light sanding to smooth out the roller marks. I would start with some 400 grit sand paper and move up to 800 or so. If you get the screen smooth and to your liking, then project an image on there with the JVC. If there is no ambient light, then a white screen is going to be the best screen for a pj.

The JVC should easily light up an 84" wide screen better than the NEC. If that isn't enough lumens, then you might want to look at a High Power if you can optimally place the pj.

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post #5 of 36 Old 03-13-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent View Post

Thank you!

MaxxMudd LL v.2.1?

Mud sounds dark. Is it just a name?

And with 1 quick stroke he conjures up a history lesson.

First in there was Mississippi Mud, a thick, gooey substance(*) that really was a very bright, multi-component design intended to be an cost effective and awesome replacement for more complex do it yourself paint mixes is that were currently on sale in 2002. More specifically, GOO.
(*)somebody gave it the MM name because it was so thick. I didn't.

Tbere was Mississippi Mud-SE (silver edition )
the original mississippi mud was so bright many people complained they could not get the deep contrast they could it with a grey surface. So . we grayed it up just a bit by adding some silver metallic.

RS-Maxx Mudd is a name tribute to both the original mississippi mud and my name mississippi man and pb maxx's name.

One thing sets us apart. We combine Gray w/Reflective enhancement. We are all about positive gain screens. RS-MaxxMudd is approx 1.3 gain. It sure ain't dark.

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post #6 of 36 Old 03-13-2012, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys.

I'm wondering why the extra gain? From what I've been reading, people are saying a screen gain of 1.0 works best with the new high contrast projectors.
I went to a local AV shop (individually owned, been around for years) and his demo theater had an x70 with a 1.0 screen showing Dave Matthews. It looked pretty good.

What would the gain of a sanded down goo screen be?
The Mudd appears to be mixing oil and water based paints. Is that true?
Can the Mudd be left alone for a while, or does it have to be sprayed right away?
My buddy is the talented one and will actually be doing the work. He's not confident in rolling the primer. Plus we have black wood trim all around the screen. He's concerned about brush strokes on the edges. Can the primer be sprayed?
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post #7 of 36 Old 03-13-2012, 07:56 PM
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The Goo gain will probably come down a little as it will be more matte and less reflective glossy. It shouldn't matter with that size screen. Like I say give it a go. It shouldn't cost you more than a hour to sand the screen down.

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post #8 of 36 Old 03-13-2012, 08:02 PM
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Your pj will almost assuredly be run on a "best" mode. That means on Low Lamp.

The gain spread between a HP & RS-MaxxMudd is very wide, so a comparison between thim is pointless, beyond a simple statement: RS-MaxxMudd is far better suited for your purpose...

BTW...everything is water based in RS-MM. I've kept these poly-rich paints in a tight container for almost a year. Just stir and serve.

If you do a good, correct job of sanding, spraying on primer is fine. The only thing about spraying primer is that it goes on much thinner so it reduces the coverage potential of primer

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post #9 of 36 Old 03-13-2012, 08:27 PM
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Cresent, much is being assumed. If your roller marks lie underneath the Top Coat, sanding down to remove them will ruin any vestige of performance the paint had to offer. With that paint, it's all about the Top Coat. Remove it, and all you have is white paint. If the Roller marks are in the top coat, no matter what, the entire surface MUST be sanded equally.

And it's almost a certainty that to get an unblemished surface, it will require a over coating of something.
Decide and move ahead...don't take a step backwards.

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post #10 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.

OK, we'll sand it down and paint it with something. But I hooked this thing up quickly just to take a peek at the picture. It's a light canon compared to my XG. It doesn't seem to me that any gain should be required at all and that a perfectly flat 1.0 gain should be the target. Is there a formula for 1.0 gain?
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post #11 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent View Post

Thanks.

OK, we'll sand it down and paint it with something. But I hooked this thing up quickly just to take a peek at the picture. It's a light canon compared to my XG. It doesn't seem to me that any gain should be required at all and that a perfectly flat 1.0 gain should be the target. Is there a formula for 1.0 gain?

One might indeed assume such, but real-life usage usually dictates that at one time or another, some degree of ambient light might be desired. and for that reason alone...the contrast levels on a White surface will immediately deteriorate, relative to the amount of light in the room.

On the other hand, trying to solve that issue simply by going for a straight-up Neutral Gray is a "Rob Peter to pay Paul" proposition, where one trades a degree of brightness and brilliant colors and whites for more effective resistance to ambient light, the degree of which is also dependent upon the depth of the shade of Gray.

Other factors might also influence the choice to be made. That might of been...probably was due to necessity, not necessarily by choice. You had a CRT, and a dedicated Theater, so a reasonable assumption would be the majority of watching was in very controlled lighting. With the correct choice of a Screen surface, you can have both a bright image and great contrast ad enjoy a bit of communal illumination with your quests.

And if you can always run the PJ in economy mode, the much maligned Bulb life of the JVC products will at least be mitigated to a point that you might be one of the lucky ones who does have a Bulb pop or prematurely dim. Too quickly.

Lastly, even a JVC can use a "little" assistance as far as delivering every bit of image quality it can. It is after all a Digital PJ projecting Black, not "the absence of light" like a CRT, so all that additional light output can work against producing anything near to what the specifications relate as being possible. Dynamic Contrast isn't important if "Best Mode" and complete light control and a perfect environment is required to even begin to approach the stated specifications.

A Gray surface with a slight amount of gain balances out that equation.

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post #12 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 07:21 AM
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Crescent.

If the projector is new then you are going to ramp down on the brightness by aprox 30 percent in the first 500 hours. Different lamps will fade at altering rates.

If you have the Goo CRT White then it is not all that bright. It would actually measure about 1.1 gain. Depending on the application.

You are going to have exponentially more pigment on that Goo product then some mix that is 60 percent or more talc from a home depot or off the shelf paint.

Best to work with what you have and try and repair what you have gently. Its not like you arent going to have to do some sanding in any event.

If there is a lot to fix the wall just get a matte white screen material from Da-Lite and assemble a frame and hang it. Its going to cost less then shipping a sintra board.

A plain Sintra board is not a solution.
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post #13 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 07:50 AM
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Someone lives in the past because they have lost complete track of what has happened over 6+ years.

The recommended Base paints are Flat Interior Enamels that do not posses Talc. The suggested reflective additives are Artist quality acrylic paints.

This DIY Forum advocates the use of non-Mfg screen products, so any suggestion otherwise is a violation of the rules plainly listed in the Sticky on the Thread listing page. Of course one must be concerned and willing to observe Forum rules for that to be considered.

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post #14 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 08:18 AM
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Crescent

my recommendation would be to use a slightly modified rs-maxxmudd with an additional 4oz of Behr 1850 UPW flat.
that will tone down the gain just slightly to the 1.1-1.2 range... but give the the grey ambient light and/or black level assistance to make sure you maintain every bit of contrast your JVC can muster.

oh and if your worried about the amount of talc... the only component that might have talc is the behr 1850 UPW.
so with the 4 extra ounces... that's 14oz within a 74oz mix.
if the behr were somehow 100% talc then that would top off at 19%.
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post #15 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

Crescent

my recommendation would be to use a slightly modified rs-maxxmudd with an additional 4oz of Behr 1850 UPW flat.
that will tone down the gain just slightly to the 1.1-1.2 range... but give the the grey ambient light and/or black level assistance to make sure you maintain every bit of contrast your JVC can muster.

oh and if your worried about the amount of talc... the only component that might have talc is the behr 1850 UPW.
so with the 4 extra ounces... that's 14oz within a 74oz mix.
if the behr were somehow 100% talc then that would top off at 19%.

Actually its quite easy to discover how much pigment, and various fillers a product like behr has. Talc is only one of the fillers but the most common It is important. Goo doesnt use talc or other fillers at least not in the samples I sprayed. Is your recommendation as color neutral as the SS screen you suggest to be color neutral? Fact is its far from neutral. I would be afraid and given the fact you make a statement of a product being neutral that is so far from neutral it would be a feckless exercise for me to engage in what you are using. It may be neutral to you as well.

But since its something that you recommend I am guessing that its been tested and measured, but then how could that be since you state the SS is neutral. See what I mean.

So I would stay away from your recommendation just from that one fact that I don't really know what colors I am going to get because a) you don't seem to know what neutral is... and B) you don't know the composition of the materials you are recommending.

Nothing personal cuz I don't have any idea who you are but just laying it out as I see it. You lost me with the SS screen being neutral and further recommending it to someone as a projection screen. YIPES its 2012 right.
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post #16 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 10:49 AM
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crescent,

i would not recommend you use silver screen... not in this thread... not ever.
i do respect the SS folks without bashing them over the head with it or rubbing it in.

you have my honest recommendation. it's obviously your choice.
or you can go spend $200 on another quart of Goo.
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post #17 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

crescent,

i would not recommend you use silver screen... not in this thread... not ever.
i do respect the SS folks without bashing them over the head with it or rubbing it in.

you have my honest recommendation. it's obviously your choice.
or you can go spend $200 on another quart of Goo.

Must have been the man on the moon that wrote this a few days ago.

"SS is a nuetral grey and a very respectable option and even more so with today's higher lumen pj's.."

Did you mean "not never" ?

Yipes no wonder people are complaining about getting headaches here.
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post #18 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 12:10 PM
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yep i was respecting the DIY Silverscreen users and their solution on the DIY Silverscreen thread. and i also recommended the user NOT to use Silverscreen. and i was reluctant to do so... on their thread.
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post #19 of 36 Old 03-18-2012, 02:19 PM
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guys this bickering is getting a bit tedious.

MM and pb_maxx may have a business where they spray screens for a fee, but the fact remains that they are sharing information on this forum about diy screens. Their paint formulas (love them or hate them) are shared publicly and anybody could buy the materials and paint the screens themselves.

So please contribute to this forum constructively by sharing your knowledge.

Cheers.
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post #20 of 36 Old 03-19-2012, 06:47 AM
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OK I can see there is no point in in trying to get facts here.

It is a commercial product being sold on a website. So it's not really diy and I would think that the sponsors to many AVS events deserve at least a fair representation.
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post #21 of 36 Old 03-20-2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent View Post

Thanks.

OK, we'll sand it down and paint it with something. But I hooked this thing up quickly just to take a peek at the picture. It's a light canon compared to my XG. It doesn't seem to me that any gain should be required at all and that a perfectly flat 1.0 gain should be the target. Is there a formula for 1.0 gain?

You are probably going to be a little below 1 gain after you sand it. Again, I say take a look at it and you will probably be satisfied after you have sanded it down.

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post #22 of 36 Old 03-20-2012, 11:15 PM
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rarely does sanding a screen result in a decent image...
it's too large a surface to uniformly sand without noticing the inconsistencies.
...unless the gain is so removed that the image is muted...
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post #23 of 36 Old 03-21-2012, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

rarely does sanding a screen result in a decent image...
it's too large a surface to uniformly sand without noticing the inconsistencies.
...unless the gain is so removed that the image is muted...

That being said then it would also hold for spraying a screen with a wagners gun or a paint roller putting the application back on. I think eric was talking about 800 grit paper and from what I seen you are applying at a much higher density with rollers.

The op has to sand it down in any event. Applying any other material over the area is just going to get worse.

Since the goo is what you got why not give them a call and see what they can do for you.
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post #24 of 36 Old 03-21-2012, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandarax View Post

That being said then it would also hold for spraying a screen with a wagners gun or a paint roller putting the application back on. I think eric was talking about 800 grit paper and from what I seen you are applying at a much higher density with rollers.

The op has to sand it down in any event. Applying any other material over the area is just going to get worse.

Since the goo is what you got why not give them a call and see what they can do for you.

I'm not sure what your trying to say in that first part of your first sentence...it seems rather oddly jumbled.

The original application of the GOO resulted in a roller marks. That was a reoccurring problem with a great many users of that product. Spraying any such application (...including GOO...) has always been the suggested method, never rolling. The original instructions that were stated on their website clearly said as much. Rolling always has been, and will never be more than anything but a method of application available for those who are limited to considering only that. No one who knows anything about applying a fine quality finish would ever doubt that hvlp spray is the only and best method to achieve a ultra smooth finish. And the Wagner and Erlex Electric HVLP sprayers are excellent equipment to do the job.

800 grit sandpaper is not going to remove enough material to erase embedded roller marks. The object of trying to help this person is not to have him try something that will be ineffectual at best. The need to use a 150 (medium) grit sanding "sponge" combined with the degree of sanding required to remove the Roller marks will remove all vestiges of the GOO's top coat and its advantages, rendering it nothing more than a white surface. For that surface to then be made usable, another round of sanding with a Fine grit sanding sponge would be required. That's a lot of effort simply to regress to a basic white surface.

Add to all that the fact that GOO is a manufactured product designed specifically to be used as a screen surface and as such you will not find it being an appropriate item to mention as a alternative on this forum. That has been stated often enough.

Still, if the OP had really wanted to stick with the original product and was requesting help on how he could try to eliminate Roller marks, he would've found out all the information and help here that he needed with no bias or no hesitation. That is exactly what did happen to an extent. But it would seem obvious he wants help not only in rectifying a problem, but also to move on to something better and more ideal for his needs and desires.

Since then he has been getting somewhat misdirected at times. Please stick with a do it yourself solution. There are solutions on here that are readily available and that will easily satisfy the OP's needs.

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post #25 of 36 Old 03-21-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandarax View Post

That being said then it would also hold for spraying a screen with a wagners gun or a paint roller putting the application back on. I think eric was talking about 800 grit paper and from what I seen you are applying at a much higher density with rollers.

The op has to sand it down in any event. Applying any other material over the area is just going to get worse.

Since the goo is what you got why not give them a call and see what they can do for you.

I would probably have tried 400 to lightly start and see if he was taking off to much. I agree that he has to sand, so that is the only place to start. It is work, but shouldn't take more than a hour or so.

Quote:
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I'm not sure what your trying to say in that first part of your first sentence...it seems rather oddly jumbled.

The original application of the GOO resulted in a roller marks. That was a reoccurring problem with a great many users of that product. Spraying any such application (...including GOO...) has always been the suggested method, never rolling. The original instructions that were stated on their website clearly said as much. Rolling always has been, and will never be more than anything but a method of application available for those who are limited to considering only that. No one who knows anything about applying a fine quality finish would ever doubt that hvlp spray is the only and best method to achieve a ultra smooth finish. And the Wagner and Erlex Electric HVLP sprayers are excellent equipment to do the job.

If he wants to spray and has or can borrow a compressor, then I would suggest a Harbor Freight HVLP gun. I bought my set for $50. It is a much better option for an ultra smooth surface than the Wagner.
Quote:


800 grit sandpaper is not going to remove enough material to erase embedded roller marks. The object of trying to help this person is not to have him try something that will be ineffectual at best. The need to use a 150 (medium) grit sanding "sponge" combined with the degree of sanding required to remove the Roller marks will remove all vestiges of the GOO's top coat and its advantages, rendering it nothing more than a white surface. For that surface to then be made usable, another round of sanding with a Fine grit sanding sponge would be required. That's a lot of effort simply to regress to a basic white surface.

And how do you know this? You don't know how bad the roller marks are. They may be light or they may be heavy. I sanded a 3'x5' surface last week with 400 and it didn't remove all of the paint. I sanded the p!#s out of it to. In the end, he has to sand the screen whether he paints or not. He might just be satisfied with the sanded screen.
Quote:


Add to all that the fact that GOO is a manufactured product designed specifically to be used as a screen surface and as such you will not find it being an appropriate item to mention as a alternative on this forum. That has been stated often enough.

Still, if the OP had really wanted to stick with the original product and was requesting help on how he could try to eliminate Roller marks, he would've found out all the information and help here that he needed with no bias or no hesitation. That is exactly what did happen to an extent. But it would seem obvious he wants help not only in rectifying a problem, but also to move on to something better and more ideal for his needs and desires.

Since then he has been getting somewhat misdirected at times. Please stick with a do it yourself solution. There are solutions on here that are readily available and that will easily satisfy the OP's needs.

If he really wants to paint a screen over what he has, then he mentioned wanting to stick with a unity gain screen and not deal with the issues that come with a gain screen. Goo which is what he has would be one solution. Another would be the old standard of Behr UPW.

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post #26 of 36 Old 03-21-2012, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I just received my 25' hdmi cable. So i put the RS40 in the middle of the room and did a quick setup by eye. I threw up a 100 ire pattern. If you're being a perfectionist, i don't see how any recommendation can be made to roll the screen. Every "orange peel" dimple shows up as grain on a white field. Most of the time, there is content in the picture and it's not an issue. However, light backgrounds bring out the imperfections. This wasn't such a big deal with CRT, not enough light.

I think the plan now is to glue laminate over the existing sheetrock screen and spray it. The sticky for this forum is somewhat old. Is laminate still a viable alternative?
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post #27 of 36 Old 03-21-2012, 07:46 PM
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Crescent;

take a look for sintra or komatex instead... heck, do a search for sintra pb_maxxx... and you'll find me recommending the stuff dating back for years.
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post #28 of 36 Old 03-21-2012, 08:45 PM
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If you are going to paint a screen, then you are better off getting Sintra or Gatorboard. Wilsonart Designer White is a good screen as is. I think it can sometimes be a little to glossy, but a lot of people are perfectly happy with it. It is afterall one of the most popular DIY screens out there.

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post #29 of 36 Old 03-22-2012, 07:06 AM
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Crescent, my DIY skills are modest at best. However, I had no problem using one of the HVLP spray guns in the manner advocated on this forum. I'm sure if I had done just one or two coats, the application would not have been uniform. However, I applied several, and the screen now appears very uniform.

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post #30 of 36 Old 03-22-2012, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

Crescent; take a look for sintra or komatex instead... heck, do a search for sintra pb_maxxx... and you'll find me recommending the stuff dating back for years.

Are either of these flexible materials? I think I mentioned that I can't get a large non-flexible surface into the room. Perhaps that was a different post. The current screen was built in the room and could not be removed unless we sawsalled it in half. Back again to the laminate, is this still a viable alternative?
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