What advantages does Sintra have over Black Out Cloth? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello All,

I have a 90" diagonal BOC screen I made back in 2004. It's still in great shape and has served me well. I've been reading some threads about screens made from Sintra, which as I understand is basically a foam-core signboard with a shiny, white, plastic surface laminate.

Are there advantages of using Sintra vs. BOC? My screen is just BOC; no paint on it. Do you have to paint Sintra? Would you please explain what the deal is w/this Sintra stuff?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 12:18 PM
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michaelddd;

many. but they are mostly cosmetic.
if you've got a flat wall... no need for a frame...
no need to stretch boc and uses countless staples... jut screw the sintra directly on the wall. etc. etc.
it's also much easier to paint than BOC.

as for visual... it is brighter than BOC... and slightly less ambient friendly as well.
unfortunately depending on where you get it, and whether it's sintra or komatex... quality control on the sheen is iffy. and with today's brighter pj's... will tend to hotspot.

it's a great substrate... but not necessarily a hang and shoot substrate...
unless you're shootin' it with paint.
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post #3 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the great summary, pb_maxxx. I think I understand. I know that paint for a screen is a hot, hot topic around here (it was 6 years ago too!)so I won't ask what color to paint it. The main reason I went w/BOC for my current screen was b/c it was "hang and shoot."

I might be going with a bigger screen come this summer. I was debating on building another BOC screen and possibly painting it. Just building it was a PITA (millions of staples and a few stapled fingers...there's still a bloody fingerprint on the back of the screen!). If Sintra offers a much easier way to go, for the same or better results, I'll go with that. I would imagine cutting a piece of Sintra to size and then painting it is much less labor-intensive than building a BOC screen and painting it.

Thanks again.
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post #4 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 06:35 PM
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Much...MUCH less, and the end results are always the best you can hope for, not what you have to settle for.

I'm not afraid to suggest a paint.......

RS-MaxxMudd LL for the "beginner". Silver Fire 2.5 2.0 if you can get'cher self up for it.

BTW, Sintra does not have a shiny surface...more like a semi-Flat. But if you rub a cloth on it, it will buff out to a satin-like finish.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #5 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, MississippiMan. I've read many threads in the DIY Screen forum and know you're one of our resident screen experts, so I appreciate your input.

I'm not sure what those paints are, so I'm going to search/google and see what I come up with. I'm still not sure if I'll definitely be moving to a bigger screen. I need to see what my 90-incher looks like in it's new location first. It may be enough. Heresey, I know ! If big is good, bigger is better!
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post #6 of 24 Old 03-20-2012, 10:10 PM
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I would have an issue with using Sintra or Gatorboard as is. Both leak light so bad that they could almost be used as a rear pro screen. Gator's sheen isn't to bad, but Sintra is unacceptable in my opinion. If you are going to paint them, then they should be a good solution for that.

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post #7 of 24 Old 03-21-2012, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

I would have an issue with using Sintra or Gatorboard as is. Both leak light so bad that they could almost be used as a rear pro screen. Gator's sheen isn't to bad, but Sintra is unacceptable in my opinion. If you are going to paint them, then they should be a good solution for that.

What are you talking about? Something you actually know about or have seen. Apparently not. Sintra is a very opaque sheet material. Gatorboard is slightly less solid, but has a Paper Veneer. The original Parkland Plastic sheets we used 7 years ago had a greater degree of translucency, but to date no one has ever mentioned such as being the case with Sintra or Gatorboard

If someone tried to obtain Sintra in a thickness less than 3 mm, you might see a slight vestige of bleed-through, but nothing along the order of what your inferring. In the 6mm thickness, it would be never be an issue.

I don't disagree that under most circumstances Sintra will hot spot if a bright PJ is placed withing the minimum throw distance. But I can't recall anyone with knowledge of that material ever suggesting such a use except as being temporary until some type of paint is applied. In fact, where on this particular thread was such a usage even mentioned? No, it was specifically warned that is was not really acceptable to use.

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post #8 of 24 Old 03-21-2012, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

What are you talking about? Something you actually know about or have seen. Apparently not. Sintra is a very opaque sheet material. Gatorboard is slightly less solid, but has a Paper Veneer. The original Parkland Plastic sheets we used 7 years ago had a greater degree of translucency, but to date no one has ever mentioned such as being the case with Sintra or Gatorboard

If someone tried to obtain Sintra in a thickness less than 3 mm, you might see a slight vestige of bleed-through, but nothing along the order of what your inferring. In the 6mm thickness, it would be never be an issue.

I do not have the Gator on hand, but when I projected an image on it I was shocked at how bright the image was on the backside of the screen. I had this in my parents garage about a year and a half ago doing some testing on a couple of pjs. I remember watching the football game clearly on the backside of the screen. It wasn't muted at all, but actually pretty bright. I only had a sample of the Sintra and don't remember the thickness, but it bled as well.
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I don't disagree that under most circumstances Sintra will hot spot if a bright PJ is placed withing the minimum throw distance. But I can't recall anyone with knowledge of that material ever suggesting such a use except as being temporary until some type of paint is applied. In fact, where on this particular thread was such a usage even mentioned? No, it was specifically warned that is was not really acceptable to use.

The OP asked whether it had to be painted or not.

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post #9 of 24 Old 03-21-2012, 01:15 PM
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i've been using and recommending sintra as a substrate long before it became household (thread-hold) name at avs or otherwise...

let's just say there's a huge difference between it and gatorfoam... not even in the same ballpark.

as as for light leakage... 3mm from behind... in completely blacked out room... you can't make out an image of any sort... but i has a slight glow on bright scenes... but it could NEVER pass for a rear projection screen... of which i've done many. 6mm light leakage... forget it.

but the real of it is this... neither 3mm or 6mm has any noticeable loss of reflected light back to the viewer... and the image is plenty bright with positive gain.

the only thing keeping it from being a recommended hang and shoot substrate is the lack of quality control with the sheen. Sintra is made domestically. Komatex is imported. Same material, closed cell expanded extruded pvc foam... many different manufacturers resulting in many different sheens.

so you might get a sheet from one that hotspots and from another that doesn't.
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post #10 of 24 Old 03-21-2012, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Lots of good info to keep under my hat, should I go with a bigger, Sintra-based screen. Thanks, pb_maxxx and MississippiMan.
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post #11 of 24 Old 03-21-2012, 03:07 PM
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Go as big as you can, so you won't get the bug to upgrade later. I just finished a painted screen with komatex/sintra and really like this stuff.
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post #12 of 24 Old 03-22-2012, 06:19 AM
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While not quite the same, I got the melamine board from Menard's that PB_Maxx recommends, and just nailed it to the wall. I then painted it and finally, added the border.Much easier than my first DIY screen, which was made with BOC. I think it looks much better - it has a much more professional look to it.

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post #13 of 24 Old 03-22-2012, 06:33 AM
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The various "Board" solutions all have their appeal linked to not having to construct a surface, one that must be smooth, tight, and perfectly flat.

As sizes increase, the logistics and expense of doing a Fabric screen also rise. Still, wen one is getting into sizes that go beyond the norm available in solid sheeting, such screens can offer solutions to the demand for such.

Having done both, I'd state that between 135" and 160", a BOC Screen has been and remains a viable solution. Beyond that, I'd come down in favor of either using an existing Wall surface, or a White Polycarbonate Sheet that comes in3-6mm thicknesses, and from 72" to 100" high to whatever lengths are needed.

Expensive, but absolutely a perfectly smooth, virtually indestructable screen surface on which to paint

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post #14 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I've only built one BOC screen (I need to post a pic...will do tonight!) and I know it turned out well b/c 6 years later it looks like it did the day I made it. I did my research here on AVS, bought the right supplies and took my time.

That said it's only a 90-incher and it was a royal PITA to do. I would imagine after you've done 2 or 3...or twenty that it gets easier. But I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to keep a 135" piece of BOC taught and smooth, the frame arrow-straight, etc. My next screen will be board-based and painted.

That said, my next question...and I'm scared to ask b/c I know how sensitive this topic is, is this:

Is there a "screen paint" I can buy premixed that will equal say "SilverFire5" or whatever the latest awesome stuff is? I've read the "Paint Threads" and to me, mixing 5.2 ounces of this with 1.3-1.4 ounces of this other thing and stirring lightly just seems like roll-the-dice voodoo, fraught with too many ways to go wrong and waste money.

I'm all about DIY, but believe in working smarter and minimizing risks and the potential for wasted money and time. I.E. I'm poor, cheap and don't have too much free time. Is there awesome screen paint I can buy? I have a compresser and a HVLP gun...no idea how to use the gun but I can learn.
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post #15 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 08:37 AM
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Without mentioning any specific names, the only Mfg Screen paints that approach or equal the SF varieties cost upward or beyond $180.00 for 64 oz.

Some even more.

To that end, DIY'ers on this Forum are encouraged to give what we suggest a try, because with any degree of care, the only worrisome part...mixing up the Colorant...will produce a mix that is close enough that if there is a resulting "push" due a preponderance of too much Blue or Green or Red, and IF the DIY'er posts his results and asks for a corrective solution, when that Colorant is mixed into the Reflective / Viscosity bases (...which BTW are really quite simple to mix...) any undue color shift from neutral Gray is easily corrected with the specific diluted R-G-B elements required to effect such.

For sure, some want spectacular results (...especially "ambient light performance-like" results...) to be available in a "One Can Solution". But just as certain is that there are no "Over The Counter" paints that can provide such, and the Mfg Screen paints will...and are going to make you pay though the Nose. Or from the Hip at least, where your wallet resides.

So in the end it boils down to how much effort toward a true, much less expensive DIY solution you can, or are willing to make. In the real world, one can usually spend their way into where they want to be...but if you can't afford Popcorn & beer afterward, where's the joy in that?

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post #16 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Well-said, MississippiMan. I feel empowered...I feel like waving some sort of HT flag now. LOL!

I'm not that picky. I'm not the type to complain that "In LOTR there is the slighest Green Push but there is none in The Matrix...I think it had .0002 ounce too much green." I have been using an unpainted BOC screen for 6 years. Anything that improves on that is an improvement in my eyes.

I'm just worried that I'm going to spend $100 on paint and supplies and screw it up. I most certainly can follow directions. In fact, I'm quite used to using Technical Orders and explicit "do it this way" instructions from my line of work.

To a "screen paint noob" the paints seem like they'd be hard to find and I've noticed that the paints directed are VERY specific. I.E. "Glidden Hunter Green WILL NOT WORK!~ MUST USE Benjamin Moore Bear Hunter Green!" I worry that I won't be able to find it all even though I live in a large city with plenty of Lowe's and Home Depots. How do you mix them anyway? With one of those "mixer" attachments you chuck into an electric drill?

So, am I aiming for some shade of gray? My specifics:

Mitsu HC4000
No bigger than 110" screen (currently at 90")
Movie watching (75%) and HD documentary (25%)
No to low ambient light

Thank you for your help. I appreciate your time.

Mike
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post #17 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 12:37 PM
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This was a great advertisement but let me shed some light on the sintra.

here is a pic with just a small led pen light with a weak battery.

They don't call him eric glo for nothin. Looks like we have another myth busted.

Oh and here is the thickness.. and the pic was taken from the Sintra that was coated.



I would be searching the internet for guys that knew a 30 lumen penlight would have light pass through a coated Sintra. Then I would thank Ericglo for his answer. Then I would call the guys up and tell them to start editing again.
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post #18 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

What are you talking about? Something you actually know about or have seen. Apparently not. Sintra is a very opaque sheet material. Gatorboard is slightly less solid, but has a Paper Veneer. The original Parkland Plastic sheets we used 7 years ago had a greater degree of translucency, but to date no one has ever mentioned such as being the case with Sintra or Gatorboard

If someone tried to obtain Sintra in a thickness less than 3 mm, you might see a slight vestige of bleed-through, but nothing along the order of what your inferring. In the 6mm thickness, it would be never be an issue.

I don't disagree that under most circumstances Sintra will hot spot if a bright PJ is placed withing the minimum throw distance. But I can't recall anyone with knowledge of that material ever suggesting such a use except as being temporary until some type of paint is applied. In fact, where on this particular thread was such a usage even mentioned? No, it was specifically warned that is was not really acceptable to use.

Well I seen it..
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post #19 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelddd View Post

.........

Is there a "screen paint" I can buy premixed that will equal say "SilverFire5" or whatever the latest awesome stuff is? I've read the "Paint Threads" and to me, mixing 5.2 ounces of this with 1.3-1.4 ounces of this other thing and stirring lightly just seems like roll-the-dice voodoo, fraught with too many ways to go wrong and waste money.

I'm all about DIY, but believe in working smarter and minimizing risks and the potential for wasted money and time. I.E. I'm poor, cheap and don't have too much free time. Is there awesome screen paint I can buy? I have a compresser and a HVLP gun...no idea how to use the gun but I can learn.....


That is precisely why i went with an OTS neutral gray paint. Cheap, fast, and easy. And if i don't like the end results, i can always move on to the next option.
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post #20 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Smokarz: OTS? "Over The ????" Sorry, I don't know what OTS means.
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post #21 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 05:57 PM
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sorry...that's Over The Shelf (same as OTC).


here's my build: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1395140
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post #22 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

sorry...that's Over The Shelf (same as OTC).


here's my build: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1395140

Ah, that was YOUR build thread. I saw it the other day...along with about fifty others...my head still hurts.

Nice screen, and your 2nd set of pics (taken with night mode) are VERY nice. Much more pop than my plain BOC screen has.

So, is the name of the paint actually "Unique Gray?" Did you just pick that color randomly or is it a common screen paint? Not being a butt-head with that question. I have no idea where to start with paint, but I DO know that the thought of buying $200 worth of 1-ounce cups of paint, stirring vigorously and hoping for the best scares me. I'll spent $100 on a good Scotch b/c it's a known quantity/quality, but I just don't think I'm lucky enough to mix "a good batch" like many seem to do on a daily basis around here. My stars don't align for nuthin'. LOL!

ps
Nice subs. And that's all I'll say b/c that thread was about your screen. Back in the day I built about a thousand boxes for car audio. Me and subs are good buddies.
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post #23 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 08:59 PM
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I wonder how many coats of house paint it would take to prevent the bleed through. I would guess at least five or six coats. I know the stuff I use would probably take ten coats if it was heavy on the titanium dioxide. That being said, I really like the Gatorboard screen that is at my parents house. It is light and easily moved for a quick set up and take down. I know the bleed is probably effecting the image, but I am less critical for this use. Even the blue shift doesn't bother me that much. If this was a dedicated HT, then I would have to paint it.......... or put a mirror behind it and make it a GatorFusion.

I might add that mechman measured Sintra and Gatorboard with a spectro and found the Sintra to be almost perfectly neutral. The Gator shifts blue slightly. Of course the gloss and bleed through on the samples I had make them less usable as is. Maybe as pb says the really thick ones don't bleed, but the cost does go up.

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post #24 of 24 Old 03-23-2012, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelddd View Post

Ah, that was YOUR build thread. I saw it the other day...along with about fifty others...my head still hurts.

Nice screen, and your 2nd set of pics (taken with night mode) are VERY nice. Much more pop than my plain BOC screen has.

So, is the name of the paint actually "Unique Gray?" Did you just pick that color randomly or is it a common screen paint? Not being a butt-head with that question. I have no idea where to start with paint, but I DO know that the thought of buying $200 worth of 1-ounce cups of paint, stirring vigorously and hoping for the best scares me. I'll spent $100 on a good Scotch b/c it's a known quantity/quality, but I just don't think I'm lucky enough to mix "a good batch" like many seem to do on a daily basis around here. My stars don't align for nuthin'. LOL!

ps
Nice subs. And that's all I'll say b/c that thread was about your screen. Back in the day I built about a thousand boxes for car audio. Me and subs are good buddies.

Yes, it's the Sherwin Williams Unique Gray.

Thanks, I love them subs. Built them on the cheap, yet they very well in my room. I also have a build thread for that.
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