Silver Fire 4.0 with pt-ar100u (previously: need some help picking a screen paint for my new projector) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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update - this thread started as a NG/MaxxMudd advice question - and turned into me using SF 4.0...  anyone looking because the updated thread name, just go on to somewhere in the middle of the 3rd page to where i changed gears from MM to SF. 

hoping to get screenshots up at some point for people considering this paint with this PJ

 

original post starts here:

------------------------------------------

 

 

Hi guys, Ive spent the past few weeks reading a lot of the threads in this forum regarding paints and whatnot, and i have an idea of what the different options are, and am trying to figure out what the best option would be for me.

my situation is as follows -
i have a panasonic ar100u, with a lens to wall throw of about 10-11 feet (the exact number escapes me at the moment). I am going for a ~100" screen, which is doable if if i pretty much max out the zoom on the projector.

it seems pretty bright, even running it against the wall in dynamic mode (that wall is painted a blue color), with the lights on (there is a fluorescent fixture withing the vicinity of the screen), it is 'usable'.

with the lights off (not in dymanic mode, but game or cinema/rec mode), it actually looks pretty nice, brightness wise - does anyone know the approximate gain of a basic matte ben. moore paint for reference? because the brightness looks ok against the wall paint, im thinking i dont need to go crazy high gain on the screen. just enough to make it usable with some moderate ambient light).

that all said, i am trying to decide between a basic neutral gray (n7?), gray with some basic additives (along the lines of the idea in the 'beginners delight' thread'), or a maxxmudd application.

i think i would probably 'enjoy' the basic N/gray, and i think some basic poly addition would might it some nicer color poppage. what im not sure about is whether going into maxxmudd territory will raise the gain too high for my needs. i guess the main question here is, is the ar100u bright enough to light a gray screen with lights on (from the short distance i am working with)

the goal is to have the 'lights off' movie watching look very good, but also have it 'enjoyable' with some light on. doesnt have to be stellar with lights on, just enjoyable.

anyone care to take a shot? (from reading, i think i can bet on the guys who will answer soonest )


- oh, forgot to add, this is in a basement, so light control for movie watching is totally controllable, and i do plan on getting a black carpet and possible some flocking for the cieling in front of the screen. the room is not furnished in an overly bright way.

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post #2 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 11:12 AM
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Did you win your bet?

Yes...in your case, a simple Neutral Gray in approx. the 8.0 range would suffice. But you cannot add Poly to it unless you do go further into the RS-MaxxMudd / SF ranges.

A 8.0 NG and your using "Low Lamp Mode" will give you great results for darkened room situations, and simply bumping up to "Normal Lamp" output should be all you'd ever need as far as dealing with modest amounts of controlled ambient light.

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post #3 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Ha, well, although the bet was with nobody in particular, yes - yes I did

a few short follow up Q's -

What do you mean by "cannot add Poly to it unless you do go further into the RS-MaxxMudd / SF ranges. ". - Do you mean that if i wanted to do it, I would need to do it right, and use a proven mix? Or did you just mean that the gain from a maxxmudd application would be too much for my needs/use - just want to clarify what you meant by 'cannot'


So basically are we just saying that the N8 will be enough for decent black levels with some lights on, and that the PJ is bright enough for my colors and whites to look ok with the lights off?
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post #4 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artisanoo View Post

Ha, well, although the bet was with nobody in particular, yes - yes I did

Should have bet the Mortgage on a sure thing.

Quote:


a few short follow up Q's -

What do you mean by "cannot add Poly to it unless you do go further into the RS-MaxxMudd / SF ranges. ". - Do you mean that if i wanted to do it, I would need to do it right, and use a proven mix? Or did you just mean that the gain from a maxxmudd application would be too much for my needs/use - just want to clarify what you meant by 'cannot'

Well, we only advocate the use poly in conjunction with metallic additives and additional Gray colorant, and those additional ingredients help mitigate a known issue of Poly creating a slightly softer image. Adding a pure Poly Top Coat isn't advocated by anyone...but often Noobs seem to think it makes good sense. Glare & severe Hot Spotting is the end result.

Also, having a light Graysh-Silver Mix with positive gain allows your PJ to run on a lower Lamp output, saving lamp hours, improving Black levels, and keeping things about as ideally suited to a variety of situations and circumstances.


Quote:


So basically are we just saying that the N8 will be enough for decent black levels with some lights on, and that the PJ is bright enough for my colors and whites to look ok with the lights off?

Who's all this "we", Paleface?

That's what I'm say'in..........but it's something that is pretty much common knowledge and yeah....common sense. Nice bright, contrasty PJs like yours that are servicing smaller screens are what makes it all possible.

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post #5 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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gotcha, it all makes sense.
so if i wanted to bother with something beyond basic gray, maxxmudd is a decent place to start.


That said, given my situation, would you recommend the N8 over the Maxmudd? or would the maxxmudd be a worthwhile endeavor. If so, which mix (LL, standard, etc) would you suggest ?
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post #6 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artisanoo View Post

gotcha, it all makes sense.
so if i wanted to bother with something beyond basic gray, maxxmudd is a decent place to start.


That said, given my situation, would you recommend the N8 over the Maxmudd? or would the maxxmudd be a worthwhile endeavor. If so, which mix (LL, standard, etc) would you suggest ?

If spraying is not to be considered, RS-MaxxMudd LL is your Huckleberry. No simple 8.0 NG is going come close to it's overall potential.

It was, in fact, the very first High Performance DIY Mix that actually boosted "off the screen" perceived contrast while maintaining a gain above 1.0, all the while being "roll-able".

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post #7 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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not 'not to be considered' persay, but the only gun i have access to at the moment is a power painter, which i know is not the type of gun that is meant for this kind of stuff.

there's a chance i will be able to get my hands on an HVLP, but if not, and rolling is my only option, given my situation/PJ/ect, would i benefit much from LL over an N8?
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post #8 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artisanoo View Post

not 'not to be considered' persay, but the only gun i have access to at the moment is a power painter, which i know is not the type of gun that is meant for this kind of stuff.

there's a chance i will be able to get my hands on an HVLP, but if not, and rolling is my only option, given my situation/PJ/ect, would i benefit much from LL over an N8?

Absolutely, since the "LL" is determinately "roll-able", is going to provide a sharper image, have more Gain, ...seems I'm repeating myself here.

Try hard to get a'hold of a HVLP, or just ante up for this one:
http://www.gleempaint.com/noname/html

It's only $49.00, and it's "Da Bomb". You'll find lots of other uses....be certain of that!

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post #9 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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sorry if i seem to have asked the same question in a few different ways, just wanted to make sure i understand everything clearly.

thanks for all the quick answers!
ill see if i can figure out about the HVLP. if not, ill try to plan on the LL.

if i do get the gun, is my best bet still LL but sprayed? or would i want to move up to standard/retro? (incidentally, I have wondered, why is the LL the only one that can be rolled if the ingredients in the 3 mixes are all the same? is it just because of the higher amount of silver that it needs to be sprayed to look right?)

i am going to try to exchange the almost New In Box painter i have for an hvlp alternative. is the wagner CS+ a viable alternative to the suggested gun? if i can get something usable from home depot via exchange, then the gun 'upgrade' would be free and i can spray
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post #10 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artisanoo View Post

sorry if i seem to have asked the same question in a few different ways, just wanted to make sure i understand everything clearly.

Well....sometimes it might get a bit tedious, but all together speaking, I'd much prefer answering Q's than having to say; "You should have checked back if you were uncertain." So, it's all good.


Quote:


I'll see if i can figure out about the HVLP. if not, ill try to plan on the LL.

if i do get the gun, is my best bet still LL but sprayed? or would i want to move up to standard/retro? (incidentally, I have wondered, why is the LL the only one that can be rolled if the ingredients in the 3 mixes are all the same? is it just because of the higher amount of silver that it needs to be sprayed to look right?)

With a good HVLP, "Standard would be all the more better.

You got it right. With a higher degree/quantity of Silver in a mix, rolling becomes at best problematical, and at worst, an exercise in frustration if one is looking for a virtually perfect, blemish free surface.

Quote:


i am going to try to exchange the almost New In Box painter i have for an hvlp alternative. is the wagner CS+ a viable alternative to the suggested gun? if i can get something usable from home depot via exchange, then the gun 'upgrade' would be free and i can spray

I own the "Plus" and it's a great HVLP. The only thing that makes it less so is the additional cost over the "No Name". Once all those are gone, it will go back to being the "Go To" Electric HVLP Gun.

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post #11 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Well....sometimes it might get a bit tedious, but all together speaking, I'd much prefer answering Q's than having to say; "You should have checked back if you were uncertain." So, it's all good.

Nice, yeah, I agree all the way.



Quote:


With a good HVLP, "Standard would be all the more better.

That's what I figured. Glad to get confirmation

Quote:


You got it right. With a higher degree/quantity of Silver in a mix, rolling becomes at best problematical, and at worst, an exercise in frustration if one is looking for a virtually perfect, blemish free surface.

Makes sense


Quote:


I own the "Plus" and it's a great HVLP. The only thing that makes it less so is the additional cost over the "No Name". Once all those are gone, it will go back to being the "Go To" Electric HVLP Gun.

Glad to hear. In that case I hope i can manage the exchange. if not, ill stick with plan A.
....And if i can get the gun, one day ill be able to use it for SF, maybe
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post #12 of 87 Old 04-09-2012, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by artisanoo View Post

....And if i can get the gun, one day ill be able to use it for SF, maybe

I heard that.......

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post #13 of 87 Old 04-10-2012, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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btw, I have seen different tips/suggestions scattered around various threads etc - but to be sure I am going on the most recent information -

is MM something that can be sprayed (or rolled) onto sheetrock? presumably it should be primed first. i have some zinsser 123, and some zinsser smartprime lying around. are those ok? And should the MM go right over primer? or is there a preferred basecoat that should be used. I assume a white or gray of some kind?

And as far as using the gun (the CS + ) are there any tips/issues i should be aware of out the box?
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post #14 of 87 Old 04-10-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artisanoo View Post



btw, I have seen different tips/suggestions scattered around various threads etc - but to be sure I am going on the most recent information -

is MM something that can be sprayed (or rolled) onto sheetrock? presumably it should be primed first. i have some zinsser 123, and some zinsser smartprime lying around. are those ok? And should the MM go right over primer? or is there a preferred basecoat that should be used. I assume a white or gray of some kind?

RS-MM LL is the only RS-MM application we suggest that can be rolled.

It's always best to apply a primer...at least 2 coats, with the second getting a very light sanding. The White primer serves as what your referring to as a "base Coat". It covers, smooths, and provides a bright white undercoating that helps prevent undue absorption of light.

Quote:


And as far as using the gun (the CS + ) are there any tips/issues i should be aware of out the box?

Beyond the obvious Thinning and painting techniques outlined in threads and shown on many Videos, perhaps the singular most important "Tip" is to make certain the Nozzle / Collar assembly is tightened down. When assembling, always pull the Gun's trigger back so the Black Needle Spacer sits flush against the Body of the Gun. If that isn't happening, the Gun will sputter like 4 cylinder engine on 2 cylinders and produce splatters...not a fine Mist..

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post #15 of 87 Old 04-10-2012, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


RS-MM LL is the only RS-MM application we suggest that can be rolled.

right, yep - i was just mentioning the rolling as reference to the possibility of using LL vs standard if i cant get the gun.

Quote:


It's always best to apply a primer...at least 2 coats, with the second getting a very light sanding. The White primer serves as what your referring to as a "base Coat". It covers, smooths, and provides a bright white undercoating that helps prevent undue absorption of light.

thanks makes sense, i assume with the correct thinness (the 1-2-3 is pretty thin as it is?) the primers i mentioned can be sprayed just fine?
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post #16 of 87 Old 04-11-2012, 12:57 AM
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right, yep - i was just mentioning the rolling as reference to the possibility of using LL vs standard if i cant get the gun.

U see...but you'll get the Gun because you know it's the best way........right?


Quote:


thanks makes sense, i assume with the correct thinness (the 1-2-3 is pretty thin as it is?) the primers i mentioned can be sprayed just fine?

Absolutely. Spraying primer is more for creating a bright white Base with good adhesion properties. If gross coverage and sealing of a raw surface (...or a darker paint...) is required, then Rolling a Couple coats on first, (sanding the second) and then spraying a "Finish primer" coat before the actual Screen paint is the absolute most optimal route.

I use the Zinsser 1-2-3 when I have a smooth surface that just needs a Primer/Prep coat. Yeah..it's pretty thin, and need the least water added of any of them.

Thinning / Spraying Primer is great practice for the spraying of the actual Finish Coats. get's one used to how thin a paint needs to be, how it should look / feel exiting the Gun, and allows one to practice his technique with a paint that can be sanded if a mistake is made.

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post #17 of 87 Old 04-11-2012, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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U see...but you'll get the Gun because you know it's the best way........right?

going to try


awesome - thanks for the info.
one (last?) question (who am i kidding - the questions just keep coming!) - i am considering painting onto some kind of panel instead the wall.. the reason is just that i realized that if i ever want to repair/get behind the painted wall, its bye bye screen. so i figure a removable screen might be a better idea.

i was looking at these on lowes.com -

http://www.lowes.com/pd_16605-46498-...ard&facetInfo=

http://www.lowes.com/pd_297576-46498...ard&facetInfo=

do either of them look ok? does all the priming info still apply if i was to paint on a surface like that?

i was thinking that i could build a frame out of 1x3's or something similar, screw the board to that, and then mount the whole thing on a cleat or somesuch..
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post #18 of 87 Old 04-11-2012, 08:23 AM
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I'd pick this one:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_16605-46498-...ard&facetInfo=

....and yeah...a 1x3 frame with French Cleat is a good choice, but you gotta use good, kiln dried wood like Poplar or Maple. Or in the least, Ultra High Grade Clear Kiln-dried Pine.

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post #19 of 87 Old 04-11-2012, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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that link didnt seem to work - but i assume you were linking to the cheaper one i posted?

thanks - ill probably try to get to HT or lowes this weekend so i can see if they have poplar/maple and the hardboard. i know they usually have decent pine boards and its cheaper - is that generally ok? or is maple/poplar really that much better?

i assumed that since it would be mounted with hardboard, it would all hold itself together fairly solidly?

PS - oh, and about the priming - does a board like that need it? or can it be painted directly?
PPS - doh - 4x8 gives me about 97/98 inches diag, some of which i will lose along the edge if i screw it to a frame (and cover with a border ideally). will i notice the difference between 95" vs just over 100"?
is there any other larger, readily acquirable board-type substrate that i can paint into? i can go BOC i suppose, though painting that will need some more care.
PPPS hm. just thought maybe i can join together two pieces (ideally using the factory cut edges) and make the size i need - what is recommended for filling a gap in hardboard? figure if i add a support in the frame behind the gap, and fill/paint, it would be nigh invisible...
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post #20 of 87 Old 04-11-2012, 12:21 PM
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Priming the coated hard boads isn't really required, as the initial Dusters of the Finish paint serve as a Primer if each of the first two Dusters is left to completely dry. But that allows that the surface it's self is blemish free.

Of not, or if one wants the maximum surface durability, using a specialty Primer like Glidden Gripper can serve to provide even more tenacious a hold onto what is usually a pretty smooth melamine coating.

Absolutely there is another "Rigid" panel available...one that is very popular and used extensively.

It's called Sintra / Komatex. It's Expanded Solid PVC, and it's available up to 5' x 10 in 3mm and 6mm thicknesses.

There are instances where the 3mm variety is usable, and in the 5x10 size it only costs $50-60.00 It's very flexible, but it's thinness requires level/Flat support.

The 5x10 6mm is much more stiff, and easier to "Hang". It comes in on average @ $110.00 sheet

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post #21 of 87 Old 04-11-2012, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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in your experience, is the difference from 95~ to 100 important/noticeable?

I ask because the difference in price is pretty huge, considering that the hard board is under 15$ for the 4x8, and the better/stiffer sintra is over 100$.

Also, i am not sure if a 5x10 sheet of anything will fit down my stairs...

Additionally, not sure if you saw, but I was asking about the possibility of edge joining multiple HB sheets - is there any kind of filler/caulk that i could use for that? it seems that if it was done smoothly and primed well, it should be an invisible seam and still be really cheap (in the spirit of DIY, cheap is a benefit here, since i still have to figure out what i am putting my equipment on, which will also cost more money . If that is doable it sounds like it could be my best bet?
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post #22 of 87 Old 04-12-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artisanoo View Post

in your experience, is the difference from 95~ to 100 important/noticeable?

Iffin it were me (...and it often is....) I'd take a sheet of 4' x 8' Hardboard, cut it to 85" x 48" for a 98" diagonal 16:9 and go for it.

Personally speaking, I usually only consider Sintra when my screen sizes grow to 110" diagonal and above.

The difference between 98" & 110" itself is only noticeable if the viewing distance is further back. A 98"er viewed from 10' is the same sized screen as 110" viewed from 13'

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post #23 of 87 Old 04-14-2012, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, that is what i was leaning towards, after thinking it through a little more this weekend.

by the way, do you think the RS-MM retro would be too extreme for me? figured that if the pj is bright enough to light it, the blacks would be even better.
or am i missing the point of the retro - maybe what im asking is whether i could/should use a grayer base (vs the white) in the standard mix, ie a slight neutral gray maybe - sort of how SF is darkened with more 'colorant'.

does that make any sense? or is what im suggesting just asking for trouble (assuming that this kind of thing has been tried before)
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post #24 of 87 Old 04-15-2012, 09:19 AM
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No...actually it's an idea with a good deal of viability. I know, because I've done such myself.

If you start with RS-MM LL, and then add in a pre-mixed Neutral Gray such as:

http://www.dickblick.com/items/00717-2545/
http://www.amazon.com/Liquitex-Basic...4504910&sr=1-2

.....until you achieve the depth of Gray your looking for, you still will have excellent perceived Whites and vibrant colors.

The "Retro" has appreciably more Silver in it, and when one mixes a Mica-heavy paint to a darker Shade of Gray to assist in ambient light, or to grossly help boost Black levels, the brighter elements of the Silver's reflectivity can translate into one's seeing "sparklies' or a greater perception of Graininess.

Which is why to achieve that level of performance, a more advanced mix such as SF balances out reflectivity with varying degrees of masking of same with the ultra dark colorant, but also by adding a degree of the needed "Gray element" via the gray hue within a Silver metallic.

In RS-MaxxMudd mixes, "ALL" the Gray is provided via the varied levels of Silver metallic. That is why even with "Retro', it's shade of Gray is only the equivalent of a SF 2.0 RS-MM LL is almost to be described as being a Silvery White

The original suggestion to consider RS-MM LL came from that mix's having both reasonable Gain, and modest ambient light / contrast boosting performance in mind, along with bypassing the need to mix up the SF Colorant.

The paints used for the colorant are intended to create a ultra Dark Gray whose individual components are intended to remain loosely suspended within the Mix...which in turn allows for a more translucent Gray, one in whose components can both work together and separately.

On your case, using a known value neutral Gray (N5.0) such as linked to above, adding only the proportion needed to darken "RS-MM LL" to a modestly darker shade of Gray will keep things more under control, both effort and cost-wise.

As I stated before, you are not suffering from a lack of lumens. So darkening a mix such as the Retro" would not be advisable lest the increased presence of the Silver's reflective particles stand out more. Further gentle muting of the much lighter hued S-MM LL with a neutral Gray additive would be more so.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"


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post #25 of 87 Old 04-15-2012, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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i need to digest that, but i think i get the idea.

for the record, i was able to return the wagner PP (without the reciept - whew!) so i will be able to use the credit to get the control spray.

so,.... now that ill be able to tackle spraying, i think i can take a crack at standard (which IIRC you said would be better , if i has the spraygun)

sound like a good idea?

would you be able to recommend how much gray to mix in, and what level of SF it would 'roughly' (i understand that you cant really compare them like that) correspond to ( so i can poke around on the boards on see what they look like )?
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post #26 of 87 Old 04-17-2012, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi - I am about to order the paint gun (CS+ from HD) , but I wanted to clarify something after reading the last few posts.
Are you saying it would be best for me to take LL and add some gray?
Or is it still better to take standard, and potentially add gray to that.

I am also not sure how to determine how much to add, since it seems (based on reading) a few weeks to fully observe the final screen result... Is there some rule of thumb I can employ to figure out how much gray is needed?

Thanks!
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post #27 of 87 Old 04-18-2012, 04:24 AM
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Yes...adding a small amount of Liquitex Neutral Gray (1 oz) to a full compliment of RS-MaxxMudd LL will give you a slightly Grayer version.

If RS-MM Standard is used, I leave it "as is".

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"


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post #28 of 87 Old 04-18-2012, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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ah, ok - i see - thanks for the info.
so then, what would be the appreciable differences between LL+gray, and standard?

also, one last (maybe) question -
using either mix, how much would i need to do a ~100 inch screen? i.e. using the OZ. measurements in the official thread as "one batch", how many "batches" would i need? or another way to put it, how many total ounces of paint should i mix and expect to use?

almost ready to build+paint - getting excited, thanks again for all your help !
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post #29 of 87 Old 04-19-2012, 07:27 AM
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Artisanoo, I did a screen that is approximately 100", and one 'batch' was sufficient. It was also easy to mix, and relatively easy to apply with the 'no name' paint sprayer.

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post #30 of 87 Old 04-19-2012, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks - did you have extra, for 'mistake insurance'? or was it cutting it close?

also, how many coats did you end up doing?

do you have any nice screenshots to tease me with? did you use MM-standard?


edit for MMan (or whoever knows something about hardboard joining) - I did a more accurate measurement of the maximum size i can throw on to the wall with the PJ, and i can actually go to about 110" (not the 100" estimate i originally mentioned. ) I am contemplating using a second piece of hardboard to extend the height of a single 4x8 to the 54" needed to make a full 16:9 110" screen.
what would the best way be to join the seams? i have 2 ideas, not sure if either is viable:

idea 1 ( easier)
-using the factory straight edges of the 2 pieces, butt them up fairly close and just prime over the the whole thing, with the primer ideally smoothing over the thin seam

idea 2 (more work)
- screw the boards down into a frame (adding support along the seam etc, so i can make sure the seam is very tight)
- fill the screw holes (with drywall joint compound?)
- tape/skim the seam with joint compound
- prime with 2 or 3 solid rolled coats of primer
-would that be sufficient? or would i need to skim the entire surface?

either of those ideas sound doable?
thanks!
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