Same old question- which Mudd to use! - AVS Forum
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Greetings, all!

I haven't been on the forum in years- nice to see some of the old folks are still here!

So- I have a completely dedicated HT room with full light control.
Running a Panny AE-4000U onto an 80" Carada BW.
*My reason for this initial setup involves my old projector and a sensitivity to screen door. the AE4000 COMPLETELY eliminates this issue.*

I did some expreimenting this weekend with some Arctic White photopaper and found that pumping the image size up to 96" diagonal (2.35) AND moving the screen 2' closer to the viewing area was no problem at all- image looks terrific. The bizarre thing is that I could tell virtually no difference between the Carada screen and the Artic White photo paper. I was pretty shocked. In some ways, I actually preferred the photo paper- but that's another story. Could be because of the supposed decrease in gain, I suppose.

ANYWAY I have decided to build my own new 2.35 96" screen!

I am thinking of using TWH and a paint sprayer, but which mixture do you guys recommend??
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJNielson View Post

I actually preferred the photo paper- butthat's another story. Could be because of the supposed decrease in gain, I suppose.

The beauty of the these new 1080p pjs with high lumens is that they make a lot of different less than 1.0 gain screen solutions look fairly decent.
but even with DIY... your goal should be more than decent.

question... what did the DEcrease in gain of the photo paper give you that you liked slightly better... was it a increase in black levels or contrast?
if so, then that will only improve with RS-MM-LL without the loss of white levels and even more so with RS-MM or Retro.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Good question- I have been trying to articulate to myself what I liked better. I believe the sheer increase in size has much to do with it, but it was easier to make out fine detail and there was less eye strain with the photo paper. I can see very little difference between the two- even when I put a piece of the photo paper up against the Carada there is little difference- which surprises me. I am going to have my wife take a look and get her thoughts as well- maybe I was seeing things!

The best way to put it is the image seemed cleaner. Does that make sense?

At any rate, I was thinking about the RS-MM-LL, but you mention the RS-MM or Retro as well. I'll take a look at the forum some more, but what do you think the pros and cons would be of the different mixtures? I truly believe a high contrast, clean image is the goal. I do also appreciate the deepening of color offered by a slightly gray screen. Long ago I tried out a paint mixture called "Black Pearl" devised from research on the forum- in the early days of MM I believe. Light fusion was just getting off the ground, but I never did buy a giant mirror!
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Answered my own questions after more reading. Boy I wish this info was consolidated somewhere! lol

I am all about the RS-MM-LL. I think it will be an excellent solution.

Now I have to get the paint gun and get this thing done!
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJNielson View Post

Now I have to get the paint gun and get this thing done!

yes. spraying will get you the smoothest finish.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I'm on my way. Ordered the recommended $49 gun (which is great- we will find several uses for this!) and the White Pearl. I'll pick up the rest of the supplies in the next few days at Home Depot and should be able to do the project this weekend.

I understand that I will likely do 6 to 7 "duster coats" to complete the painting of the screen and that it is done when the finish is completely uniform. I think I have a good grasp on this as I took a lot of notes from the forums!

I am wondering if there are any particluar settings that I should use on the paint gun to be aware of...?

Thanks for the help!
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJNielson View Post

Okay, I'm on my way.

I understand that I will likely do 6 to 7 "duster coats" to complete the painting of the screen and that it is done when the finish is completely uniform. I think I have a good grasp on this as I took a lot of notes from the forums!

I am wondering if there are any particular settings that I should use on the paint gun to be aware of...?

Thanks for the help!

Set for full output....paint thinned to a "tomato soup" consistency....paint applied at "Duster Speed & Distance" with at least 70% overlapping of each row.

....and make sure all the edges of the screen are backed with at least 4" of under-lapping material to avoid a drop-off that causes Vortex-ing...a weakly coated area along such edges.

And wear a good Respirator Mask. Dusters only take about / less than a minute to lay down, but protection is worth more than bragging rights about how long you can hold your breath.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Old 04-17-2012, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool, thanks MM- I am trying to determine how best to set-up for the actual spraying. I have enough space in the garage to do the painting, but then I will have to transport the screen back inside (obviously).

I am trying to work out how to temporarily "attach" the TWH to the drywall in the garage in order to ensure the under-lapping... any suggestions? I imagine the TWH would need to be flsh with the drywall to avoid the drop-off...

Let me know if I am not understanding this correctly!
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:07 AM
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RyanJNielson;

i believe you are in menards country.
if you are then the better substrate to use is the 1/4 melamine from menards... it's usually $24 but is often on sale for $19.
it's definitely a better quality product and with a slightly smoother but similiar surface to sintra.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice, my friend- I love Menards! I'll look for the 1/4 melamine.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:06 PM
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wish i knew you had a menards...
i could have saved you $5-10 on the rustolem white pearl... it's 24.99 qt. at menards.
also the minwax polyacrylic water based satin is cheaper at menards too.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, we got 'em all here in MN- Lowe's, HD, Menard's. Pretty sweet.

Our sports teams bite, but hey- we have Menard's!
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a picture of the area the new screen is going to go- painting tomorrow. The new screen will completely cover the existing window.

Once it's up I will experiment with final image size (2.35), then devise a border.

I hope this turns out as good as I expect it will!
LL
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:10 PM
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lovin' it so far.
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Old 04-21-2012, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I finished (6) of what I thought were duster coats but I think I got orange peel. In bright scenes I can definitely see the texture of the paint. It's a very smooth surface, but should it be virtually texture free? Perhaps the size of the image coupled with the proximity of the first row is the issue?

Attached a picture- does this look normal? I know it's kinda hard to make out.

It was getting pretty cold when I sprayed as well. Not a warm, dry environment.

What are your thoughts, gentlemen? Should I sand to take it down a bit?

(Apart from the orange peel/texture issue on bright scenes the screen looks terrific, btw!)
LL
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:46 PM
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yes there's definitely some orange peel going on.
you'll want to sand then do a couple more dusters.

i get the feeling that you mix wasn't thin enough.

here's what i'd do after sanding with a fine 3M sanding sponge.

depending on how much mix you have left... adding 2oz per quart of upw will only slightly lower you gain ever so slightly... making any texture a little less visible in bright scenes.

also add approx 3oz of water per quart... or until you can get a finer mist than before.
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Old 04-22-2012, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds great- thanks for the UPW tip. My wife also felt the mist was not fine enough but should be easily fixed. I'll get this fixed up today!
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:56 AM
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I want to address your issues individually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJNielson View Post

Okay, I finished (6) of what I thought were duster coats but I think I got orange peel. In bright scenes I can definitely see the texture of the paint. It's a very smooth surface, but should it be virtually texture free? Perhaps the size of the image coupled with the proximity of the first row is the issue?

Attached a picture- does this look normal? I know it's kinda hard to make out.

Definitely Orange Peel. And below is why......

Quote:


It was getting pretty cold when I sprayed as well. Not a warm, dry environment.

There ya go. The smoothness of the paint is tied to how fast the moisture evaporates out of it, and cool, humid conditions can ****** drying times significantly. The Paint then lays there, and areas tend to coagulate. Then, when the surface does dry, it's "lumpy". The fact that you did Dusters is what probably saved you from getting Paint Runs outright. I would venture to state that you followed on Duster too close on the heels of another, and the combined moisture of multiple coats helped to create the Orange Peel.

Quote:


What are your thoughts, gentlemen? Should I sand to take it down a bit?

(Apart from the orange peel/texture issue on bright scenes the screen looks terrific, btw!)

Well that advice has been given. And heeded hopefully.

As for the painting, after you do sand, apply a Duster, and let it dry for at least 2-3 hours before applying another. Also, after the surface has at least dried so a light touch of the finger leaves no mark (1 hr), than direct a Fan on the screen for the remaining 1-2 hours. And yes, you want to be certain the Paint is thinned enough, but all the same, make sure your Dusters and truly "Dusters" as the poor drying conditions will make thinner paint have more of a tendency to collect into sags and develop runs.

Under warmer, drier conditions, a Duster will dry in under 30-40 minutes, and under "Earl Schibe-like" heat and forced air....15-20 minutes.

But damp, Polar-like conditions are not conducive to obtaining a decent finish when all your doing is paint a Wall with ordinary Paint, let alone trying to get an almost perfectly smooth surface on which to project high resolution / high contrast imagery.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, tomorrow is going to be dry and 75. Perfect day for for the dusting.

I need some more help on these darn "duster" coats. How much paint should I expect to see on the screen after a "dusting"? I know I was throwing WAY too much paint up there.

I thought I understood, clearly I did not!
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJNielson View Post

Okay, tomorrow is going to be dry and 75. Perfect day for for the dusting.

I need some more help on these darn "duster" coats. How much paint should I expect to see on the screen after a "dusting"? I know I was throwing WAY too much paint up there.

I thought I understood, clearly I did not!

You should start at the top right edge, about 4" to 6" off the side edge and at least 60% higher than the top edge of the screen. You then walk at a normal speed sideways...about 3' per sec. At the other end, you go 4" off the edge, then drop 30%-40% of the height of the Spray pattern and go back the other way....overlapping the previous Row.

Repeat this until you reach the bottom, and be certain your last horizontal row is at least 60% "off" the bottom edge of the screen.

A Duster can be applied even faster...at a brisk sideways shuffle, but what's most important is the degree of overlap, as that is what equalizes the amount of paint applied.

Dependent upon the thinness of the paint, your speed across the surface, and your distance from the surface (14" is best), a "Duster" should never look like it has a completely wet sheen to it.



Did I mention that the edges around the screen should be as flush as possible with the wall behind? I think by what i can ascertain, your screen material is attached directly to the wall...so if that's the case.....it's all good as is.

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Old 04-23-2012, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I am still throwing too much "wetness" for sure, even though I had done better (see attached).

I am going to try again tomorrow on the reverse side. Thin coats- hopefully I can avoid the peel.

Thanks so much for the help!

Is there a video of dusters being applied...?
LL
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:14 PM
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Since you are talking Duster coats there is a question I wanted to ask.
It's a, No-Duh, Captain obvious, sort of question but I just want to be shure before I paint.

Is the word "DUST" in DUSTER" coat, used, because especialy with the maxxMudd and SilverFire mixes, it should look like "Dust" when it is dry ?
Flat matt, without any shine to it ? Like a very very fine layer of flat matt "Dust" on a piece of furniture ?
Is the flat matt part correct, or should it look like dust with a little shine to it ?
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The big picture View Post

Since you are talking Duster coats there is a question I wanted to ask.
It's a, No-Duh, Captain obvious, sort of question but I just want to be shure before I paint.

Is the word "DUST" in DUSTER" coat, used, because especialy with the maxxMudd and SilverFire mixes, it should look like "Dust" when it is dry ?
Flat matt, without any shine to it ? Like a very very fine layer of flat matt "Dust" on a piece of furniture ?
Is the flat matt part correct, or should it look like dust with a little shine to it ?

Huh.......duh.

"Duster" implies that the coat is applied very quickly, and so being is only a "dusting" of paint. Subsequent "Duster" coats add to and build up the amount on the surface, filling in the area with more & more paint with each application.

The paint itself is going on quite 'wet"....there is just not much going on each time, that's all. In the end, the coating will still be very smooth.

Now...one can create a truly "Dusty" surface by shooting the paint from a greater distance (say...2') therein allowing the paint to dry a bit before it contacts the surface. That actually used to be a method used to reduce the tendency of a highly reflective paint such as Silver Metallic or Pearlescence to severely hot spot.

But the effectiveness was at best "spotty"....the "Dusting" had to be absolutely precise and even or the retentive effect would be uneven and too noticeable under projected light.

Lastly, when a paint is too thick, and the amount of air-to-paint mixture is too high toward there being too much air, a coarse, sand-papery texture will result. That too reduces sheen/hot spotting. But such a surface collects dust and lint so badly it's currrazy....and if you try to wipe/rub it clean, you wind up with areas where the roughness has been rubbed smoother than other locations...and that becomes very obvious under projected light as well.

So in closing out this little thesis, nothing is better for what we want in a projection surface than a smooth, blemish-free surface. It can have the slightest bit of sheen....but no more, and that only when a lower lumen PJ is in use, or if the screen's size is so Ginormas, the projected beam is so diffuse as to not have a noticeable hot spot on such a surface.

Pop Quiz this Friday. Keep your notes. The test represents 40% of your Semester's grade!

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Old 04-24-2012, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, finished the 7th of my new duster coats on the fresh side of the melanine.

It looks WAY smoother than before, but there is still texture. Am I supposed to see a smooth-as-glass texture or what? If I am, then I am still doing something wrong.

EDIT: Stand by- this is turning out smoother than I thought as it continues to cure...
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:08 AM
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Ryan, I'm no expert, but I also put on about 8 duster coats, and while not glass smooth, it is pretty smooth. So I'm guessing you are good. How does it look?

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Old 04-25-2012, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey, it looks pretty great! MUCH better than before. The slight texture is hardly noticeable.

It's a very impressive formula, I must say- looked great last night and it seems to improve by the hour. I imagine this is a result of curing.

I do see occasional "sparklies", but they are not too bothersome.

I did have a blemish near the middle of the screen and a few tiny pieces of dried paint. I wonder what the best way to deal with these blemishes would be...?

Misman/pbmaxx, what do you recommend for dealing with some of the inconsistencies? VERY light sanding? Washcloth?

Perhaps the blemish will be gone tonight, but I am curious- I am sure you have seen minor blemishes and dealt with them!
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:42 AM
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Man...I've had 1" wide "CRATERS" caused by paint lifting bubbles that I had to fill in, sand out, spot prime and re-coat

A light spot sanding and subsequent feathering in a couple very light Dustings will usually eliminate such boo-boos.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool, I'll see how it goes tonight!
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