Screen washed out, will paint help? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 04-22-2012, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys and dolls, my projector is a benq w1060.
I purchased a no name screen off of eBay as it was exactly what I wanted and almost free! Saved me building my own frame.

It's a simple aluminium frame 120" fixed screen, exactly what I wanted. It was an assemble myself job, has the black velour/velvet frame. The screen is some kind of PVC or vinyl that is stretched over hooks on the back of the frame, it looks quite nice on the wall, no one would ever think I paid $50aud for it.

Now the thing is, it had no marking on the box, it's probably a super cheap thing. My projector is about 4.5m away roughly, it's not ceiling mounted, we put it out on a shelf when we use it.

When your watching it, it's fine but the colour is a little washed out, it's as good as it wason my white walls, it just looks better now because of the black frame.
The black levels are far too illuminated, I'm wondering if painting the screen material will help me at all? The room is completely dark.
It's not terrible at all, but there's definitely room for improvement.

If painting it a neutral gray would help, what's the best method to paint the PVC/vinyl material? And will it really make much of a difference? Or is my projector just not pumping enough super lumen power (Tm)

Thanks guys
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post #2 of 22 Old 04-22-2012, 07:16 PM
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I'll leave any paint formulas to the pros, but I must ask, did you calibrate the projector? It sounds like the contrast and/or brightness are off.
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post #3 of 22 Old 04-23-2012, 02:00 AM - Thread Starter
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No I haven't Calibrates it. Not sure how to be honest. The only way I know of is with expensive gear etc.
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post #4 of 22 Old 04-23-2012, 08:35 AM
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Hello setesh,

First off, the BenQ is in no way lacking in lumens for the Screen's size. And being a DLP it's 5000:1 CR is considered to be quite adequate for normal viewing circumstances.

Your screen's own performance, or it's lack thereof is almost assuredly a part of the issue. But also, it's placement, as well as the color of and the proximity of the adjacent walls and ceiling surfaces could also be playing a part in the washing out of contrast (ie: dulling of colors and "graying" of Black levels)

Looking at your post I note you used metric figures for your PJ's throw distance. Relate some detailed specifics as to your Room's surfaces & dimensions, those surface's proximity to the screen, and where you are located, and I'm positive we can set you on the right course to acheiving a better looking standard of performance out of the w1060

As for painting the Mfg Screen material...that should present no real troubling issues, and with the right selection of coating, it can become a screen that performs more like a multi-$1000.00 example rather than a "el cheapo".

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #5 of 22 Old 04-23-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by setesh View Post

No I haven't Calibrates it. Not sure how to be honest. The only way I know of is with expensive gear etc.

The first thing you need to do is to calibrate the projector. This just means using a calibration disc to set the contrast, brightness, color, tint and sharpness properly. The best disc for beginners is the Disney WOW disc, available at Amazon. In the meantime, you can use the "THX Optimizer"(on Pixar discs) to do the same thing. After doing this, you may not even have to paint.
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post #6 of 22 Old 04-23-2012, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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This is a pic of my setup, sorry waiting for my new lounge to arrive, the seats are usually back about a yard or so, and the table between the two recliners is usually just behind those with the projector on it.

We only watch it at night and the room is pitch black.
Also the TV isnt there obviously =p . We only use it once a week . sometimes once a fortnight, So we just move the TV off. and set the projector up. We cant have it permanently set up unfortunately (no ceiling mounting etc). Im in the middle of searching for a projector stand rather than using that small table.

Its also centered when we use it too, its all pushed to one side atm as we are waiting on our new lounge delivery any day now!! ugh
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post #7 of 22 Old 04-24-2012, 08:24 AM
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Well there sets you biggest issue and the explanation. White ceiling....White walls...excessive screen size for the width of screen wall available...all as relates to the amount of brightness provided by the PJ.

That's not to say you absolutely must paint those Walls and/or the Ceiling a darker, non-reflective surface. But it is to say you "ABSOLUTELY" must change up the color of the Screen to a Neutral Gray of at least N7.0...and place the PJ at it's closest possible distance for a 120" diagonal screen. (14.2")

Be advised that the w1060 will need to be placed on a level surface that keeps the "Center of the Lens" as close to 8 3/4" "BELOW" the bottom edge of the Screen's viewable area. While most such PJs do have Auto-Keystone correction, it's always best to make the effort to place the PJ at the most correct position possible.

All in all, the w1060 is a pretty nice unit. Certainly affordable, w/high resolution and very decent DLP-oriented contrast. After you "DO" change the color of the screen, then will be the time to calibrate using the aforementioned Disney "WOW" disc...a very easy, almost intuitive aid anyone can master. Calibration is not going to correct the "wash-out" effect by itself. At best it can / will only assure you that the PJ's own performance is as closely matched to the projection surface as possible. It cannot compensate for undue reflection of projected light off nearby surfaces...because that is a constantly changing variable.

Until then, what with you watching content in the dark, the reflections from off the ceiling in particular, as well as the rest of the walls in the room, is going to mute your color vibrancy and make your black levels rise into levels of "Grayness" that really affect image quality.

Painting won't be hard....and you really don't need much along the way of an advanced mix. You do need to spray however...a good sprayer can be had for under $50.00...( http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html ) and you'll need to "unbutton" the material and hang it flat against a surface somewhere to do so.

If your game....just post your desire to go ahead with such an effort and we'll provide you all the necessary help and advice you'll need.

You very close to having something very special. Take the required steps and you'll arrive at a very "Happy Place".

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post #8 of 22 Old 04-24-2012, 11:29 AM
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I still say to calibrate the projector first. Not only the contrast and brightness may be way off, but the bulb may be set to high, making it even worse. Then if you are still not happy, paint. And if you do paint the screen, you need to calibrate again.
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post #9 of 22 Old 04-24-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

I still say to calibrate the projector first. Not only the contrast and brightness may be way off, but the bulb may be set to high, making it even worse. Then if you are still not happy, paint. And if you do paint the screen, you need to calibrate again.


+1

i say calibrate the screen/pj before you do anything else. it really is worth the extra $250 investment on a good colorimeter.
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post #10 of 22 Old 04-25-2012, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all for the replies, Esp mississippi man, thanks for taking the time to provide your in depth replies, really informative.

I realise that the white walls/ceiling is bad news. But unfortunately i am in a rental and i cannot paint =( ...Hence the very simplistic setup aswell. Otherwise id have gone nuts on it hehe (needs to be able to be moved/hidden when needed)

About the paint. Can i go into my local hardware store (they are a chain and do alot of paints) and grab a certain type of paint? I know nothing about paints. What type i would need to paint (i think its vinyl..or pvc) OR am i going to need something a little more enthusiast orientated?

I have a look at the Silver Fire thread before, i would have no idea where to source any of that stuff in Australia (and i have a feeling it would be quite expensive to ship it all in).

Cannot be painted on at all? Tight on funds currently, extra $50 for the sprayer (plus postage) is going to sting me after the paint and buying the disney wow disc
Edit: The cheapest international postage on the sprayer is $67 =/
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post #11 of 22 Old 04-25-2012, 07:58 AM
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setesh,

I'm going to work out a plan for you that involves your taking on the least expensive actions possible that also help to solve your issues at hand.

I'm not sure why it's not plainly obvious to others that your completely tied to a budget solution. Your first post pretty much spelled it out....with your obvious joy at having acquired such an inexpensive Screen.

.....and the following post with the image of the room / screen? I immediately guessed you were in a Rental / temporary location, because you had stated that you "could not" mount the PJ permanently.

1 + 1 = 2 ....., and both those posts of yours add up to your need to find a real, inexpensive solution to a problem that prevents even your NOOB's eyes from enjoying your purchases.

......and no calibration is going to solve the all too obvious issue of wash-out. Nor will simply reducing the PJ's output be a satisfactory answer. While that would actually help a little bit, I'm sure the loss of brightness would itself become a sore point...so that is not the answer you seek.

Under such circumstances, it would seem fruitless to suggest that someone spend a couple hundred dollars plus for a Calibration Tool/Software....or even $40.00 for a even simpler dedicated Calibration Disc, just to tell them something that is so patently obvious.

It's the Room that is at issue....not so much the PJ/Screen combo. And the Room cannot be changed. (...well maybe it can...but that is to come later... ...)

So OK...I've been there and done that so many times before it's silly. In 10+ years of over viewing Member's situations, I tend to cut to the chase. While that can trouble some, and even irritate others, the express purpose of my doing so is to get people started and on their way to a effective solution. Makes no never mind as to what paint, material, or room alterations are suggested...it's all about making the necessary changes possible. Otherwise...nothing get's accomplished.

For the record, both the other Posters are absolutely correct....If you don't do anything else, you need to at least get a animated Pixar DVD and use the THX Optimizer program included. Or...if and when you coat the screen with whatever you determine to go with, you'll need to calibrate it to the screen's characteristics and to assure that the PJ itself is color corrected.

First off.....that damnable White Room. A Rental, eh? Well....look around at the nearest Fabric Store and try to source out some Black Felt. ( 8 yds should do it...) Get some Thumb Tacks. Stretch out and apply a single width's strip of the Felt across the Ceiling over the Screen. Do likewise with the Walls to each side. Don't bother worrying with the Screen wall...it has no bearing or effect on the Screen's output.

Just that simple solution in and of itself will immediately change things for the better. The Thumb Tacks won't mar the walls or ceiling....so don't let that stop you.

Now...to further your end results....remove the Screen from the Frame. Drape it against the Wall, securing it first with a minimum amount of Thumb Tacks, then sealing the edges with Painter's Blue Tape. Go get some Dulux Interior "Light & Space" Ultimate White in Matte, and have it tinted to a N8 Neutral Gray.( ask for "Universal Gray" ) Get at least two, "GOOD QUALITY" Rollers of a Low Nap for smooth Finishes. Make sure the Roller Wand is a good one as well...one that spins very easily. Get a Large Sanding Sponge (Fine Grit...look in your Home Supply store's Drywall Finishing section...)

Thin the paint with just enough water mixed in to allow it to pour...not "slide' out of the can. The Dulux paint is almost sludge-like...it needs to be thinned.

Take the first Roller Cover and before you put it on the Roller wand, dampen it, express out the extra water from the Roller, then push it onto the Roller wand...load it up with the paint, and roll out a few strokes onto a sheet of something (...buy a piece of Drywall...) to get the paint evenly distributed throughout the Roller. Doing this will allow you to judge how the paint is going on at the thickness you have it. This is important because even with the material tacked and taped to the wall, applying too much pressure to try to roll out paint ridges can cause the material to buckle in front of the Roller. That can be / is a PITA.

Now if you feel confident in how easily the paint is rolling out with light pressure, roll on a light coat. Let it dry "COMPLETELY" overnight. Roll another coat on. Let it dry. Now very lightly sand it using smooth, long sweeping strokes. Wipe off the dust. Break out the second new Roller cover. Wet it...prime the roller, and do your best work on what will be the last coat.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...while many advocate rolling, I personally have found it fraught will potential issues. And buying the "right" rolling gear isn't really all that inexpensive itself. But overall, it's going to be less expensive than you shipping in the "No Name" Sprayer.

But....if you want a virtually perfect surface, and avoid the potential Slings & Arrows with rolling paint, the extra $120.00 for the Gun w/Shipping will pay real dividends, and I'll betcha you'll find other uses for the sprayer...or in the least find another willing buyer for it at $50.00.

There are a lot of your Mates in Australia who are AVS members, and it just might be that someone would jump on the chance to get the No Name off you, like a Funnel Web Spider will jump on a bare Toe.

'Cept you'll be happy they did...and you won't wind up dead.

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post #12 of 22 Old 04-25-2012, 08:00 AM
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A couple thoughts on blackout:

1. On draping -- I don't see much for side walls, with the open to the left and bay window to the right.
2. SAF on ceiling black out is mighty low for most folks.

How about this for a theatrical effect?

Instead of worrying about ceiling and walls and fabric held with thumb tacks, how about making the screen look a bit more "at the movies" Using a very long curtain rod, get/make some black pleated drapes that go above and to both sides. As long as it pleats out at least 4-6" in front of the screen, it'll kill some of the wash. The black drapery will enhance the 'perceived contrast' as it'll extend the black border of the existing screen. The couple small screw holes for the drapery rod are easily taken care of with a bit of toothpaste when it needs to be removed.

I know I'd sure want to try that first, before trying to N8 roll the screen.

my 2c.
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post #13 of 22 Old 04-25-2012, 08:15 AM
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SAF? You must mean WAF.

As I see it, the reflection of the projectors light output off the Ceiling is the biggest factor here. It almost always is. And if it returns any degree of light to the screen, then even a totally black screen wall won't help with washout. Rather, in any direct comparison the deep black surround will make washout even more apparent. And those upper level Side walls are also big contributors...I'm sure.

I suggested the Poster try the Black Felt first...if for no other reason to prove out the need to reduce room reflections and show the resulting improvement. That might be enough....and you gotta believe that solution will be less expensive than a Valance / Curtain option would be....dime against the dollar. BTW, without a pretty deep Valance, the Ceiling situation would remain the biggest issue left unattended.

I'd of rather suggested Black Velvet, but as previously stated, if budget is King here....the Black Felt rules.

Maybe we'll here from setesh later on...right now he's in bed.

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post #14 of 22 Old 04-27-2012, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow thanks heaps missisippi man! your amazing! Even researched a brand of paint we use here. I rang my local hardware store, they stock the dulux light and space, i hope they cant tint it to N8 grey for me without a problem.

While im down there i will ask them whats would be the best low nap roller to use.

My wife is already not pleased haha. She says its fine. But im a fussy bastard.

I will also try and get some black velvet to hang above the screen on the roof, Is ~1m from the screen enough? (just over a yard)

We just got our new lounge so im kinda trying to organise that, and toying with the idea of making a cheap riser (platform) to put my old recliners on.

My trouble is working out my projector! ughh! i have to have it over my new lounge, which is tall (maybe 1.3yards)

I think i am going to have to have it sitting in the middle of the screen pretty much to avoid any head shadow puppets =p

It looks like it will come along nicely, i really appreciate everyones help, esp Missisippi man's. (i have to shout you a beer man! pop me your paypal!)

I dont have the time to get anything done at the moment, let alone even use my setup! lol.
I have holidays coming out in 2 weeks where i plan to get it as organised as i can.
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post #15 of 22 Old 04-28-2012, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by setesh View Post

Wow thanks heaps missisippi man! your amazing! Even researched a brand of paint we use here. I rang my local hardware store, they stock the dulux light and space, i hope they cant tint it to N8 grey for me without a problem.

Just be sure to ask for "Universal Gray" in the Dulux Color Charts. It's a known color/tint

Quote:


While im down there i will ask them whats would be the best low nap roller to use.

A "No lint" High Quality Roller.

Quote:


My wife is already not pleased haha. She says its fine. But im a fussy bastard.

My wife is seldom pleased either...and she just leaves off the "Fussy" part.

Quote:


I will also try and get some black velvet to hang above the screen on the roof, Is ~1m from the screen enough? (just over a yard)

Yes...but make the cover go from wall to wall across the Ceiling. It would be even better if the ends at least drop down on each side until they are just above the Window / Case Opening.

Black Velvet will certainly look more classy...as well as perform better. Just be certain you get a Velvet that is intended for making Dresses or Curtains....one with a soft but noticeable nap and no apparent sheen.

Quote:


We just got our new lounge so im kinda trying to organise that, and toying with the idea of making a cheap riser (platform) to put my old recliners on.

OH Boy....getting ambitious now, eh? Any Riser will be required to be about 8" tall minimum to place the height of the Rear viewers head high enough to see an unobstructed View. You can help the equation even more by placing the Screen a bit higher than you have it now....the Black velvet will mitigate it's proximity.

Quote:


My trouble is working out my projector! ughh! i have to have it over my new lounge, which is tall (maybe 1.3yards)

I think i am going to have to have it sitting in the middle of the screen pretty much to avoid any head shadow puppets =p

Yeah...that's a bit of a logistical issue there, especially if you do consider a Rear riser w/seats. Most probably, a pedestal pole located just behind/above the Rear seating would do. I'd consider using a Ceiling Mount assembly, but with the PJ still in the normal orientation. That way the mount could essentially be a Pole on a stand.

Quote:


It looks like it will come along nicely, i really appreciate every ones help, esp Missisippi man's. (i have to shout you a beer man! pop me your paypal!)

Might just take you up on that....it's always good to have a few quaffs in ya when your trying to get sound out of your Diggeridoo (I have a 2 meter one!)

Quote:


I dont have the time to get anything done at the moment, let alone even use my setup! lol.
I have holidays coming out in 2 weeks where i plan to get it as organised as i can.

Well good...it's best to think things through and not rush.

BTW, are you on the Sidney or Perth side...or up North?

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post #16 of 22 Old 04-28-2012, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah too ambitious lol, I think I'll sort the screen and the drapery first, and get my blackout curtains up that we planned on too, then I'll dive into extra seating, as 95% of the time it's just the wife and I and maybe 1 or 2 friends, seldom more than that.

I live about an hour south of Sydney in Wollongong, nice coastal town.
http://www.tourismwollongong.com/

I have a couple of days off in a row now ( for working 13 days straight ugh) so I might see if I can get the screen done for now, and sort the curtains and drapery on my holidays.

Do you have your setup posted on the website missisippi man
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post #17 of 22 Old 04-28-2012, 10:30 AM
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Do you have your setup posted on the website mississippi man

Actually.....no.

You see...I live in a barn...literally. 60' x 55'...up in the Hayloft area. It has a very shallow Dutch Roof, so my side walls are "Knee-walls" only 4' high.

My ceilings are my Roof, light is obtained by having no fewer than 14 Skylights, and the only full height walls I have are either the Dining Room or Hallway walls. At each end are either Windows or a Large Sliding Door.

So I have no where to place a screen larger than 60".

I have some plans to pour a floor and construct some conventionally framed rooms below in the "Horse Stall" and Workshop areas...but those are plans I've had since 1994 so there is that...

Zat's alright though. You see, my career and my passion is designing and building Custom Theaters, painting Screens, and probably more time other than anything else is spent helping AVS DIY'ers do likewise. So I'm bettin' I get to "See" & Hear" and have something to do with enough of 'em to more than make up for it.

Most of the actual Threads I've authored that show me painting involve projects I've have some guilty pleasure invested in.

Go to my AVS Homepage, search my "Threads Created By" under the Statistics link.

Put some Ahi on the Barbie, crack open a pints worth, and have a read.

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post #18 of 22 Old 04-28-2012, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Went to the hardware store . They don't stock light and space. Apparently its a UK range. And they coukdbt recommend an alternative. Any ideas?

What type of paint am I looking for? Acrylic? Confused now lol. The brands we have locally are, dulux, taubmans , British paints, There's a few others like wattyl and Nippon but they aren't as stocked as the first three

Also i asked him for "Universal grey" he had no idea what that was.

Whats a silver screen like? Will the grey make the colours pop aswell?
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post #19 of 22 Old 04-29-2012, 06:32 AM
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Seems like there's no end to your troubles.

You can use any bright white "acrylic" LATEX Paint. Water based.

Should be of a "Flat" or "Matt" sheen.

"They" might say they haven't heard of it, but you can ask to see the color charts for Dulux paints and look through the light grey color chips and I'll bet you'll find it.

Short of your ordering up something of the web, or someone arranging to send you what you need, that's about the best advice I can offer at this point.

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post #20 of 22 Old 04-29-2012, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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First world problems I know, terrible, haha.
Thanks mate! Heading out to the store now
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post #21 of 22 Old 04-30-2012, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
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First world problems I know, terrible, haha.
Thanks mate! Heading out to the store now

Waiting with baited breath.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #22 of 22 Old 05-10-2012, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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just got done doing my first coat, havent had the chance. Looking good, its a little light in a few areas, but there are no marks or lines which is the most important thing i guess! all looks pretty smooth. ill do a few more coats over the next few days and give it a try. happy with how its heading though!
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