Black Diamond 1.4 vs. DIY - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 196 Old 01-05-2015, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I'm not sure how far this goes toward counting as an A/B comparison, but I found a bestbuy that was kind enough to let me bring in some very small samples for reference (and my own PJ and camera for consistency) to take some comparison pictures.
I won't get in trouble for posting them will I?

Somewhat sorry for the revival of an old thread, but this is always an inspiring topic and this particular thread is pretty specific.
I don't know why you'd get in trouble...I'd love to see these! You can feel free to PM me to the gallery if you don't feel comfortable posting.
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post #182 of 196 Old 01-05-2015, 12:19 PM
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Post away.
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post #183 of 196 Old 01-05-2015, 03:45 PM
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I'm totally comfortable posting..just worried in the back of my mind that the reason side-by-sides like this seem rare is because they magically instigate a perma-ban or some other horrible wrath. I've never seen anything mentioning it as against any rules, so it should be fine.
Like I said, nothing major here. Just some very simple comparisons that deal with black/white-levels, gain, contrast and viewing-cone on a rough level using a chunk of one of my screens that I hacked off and brought with.

-The top/left is 1partMetallic:2partsFlatBlack while that's the 1.4 below it on the bottom/left.
-The bottom/right shows the on-axis gain difference of (lowest to highest) 1partMetallic:2partsBlack, 1partMetallic:1partBlack, BlackDiamond 1.4, 3partsMetallic:1partBlack
-The other three are different angled shots showing the relative shade of the screen materials in soft ambient-light with no projected image. The 1:2mix is always darker than the ScreenInnovations and the 3:1mix is always lighter, but the 1:1mix is quite a close match.

The half-n-half mix is relatively close to the BD1.4 in some respects, but it IS slightly lower gain in order to have slightly wider viewing-cone and better uniformity when using 1:1-1:1.5 throw-distance projectors as well as to keep shimmer/sparkles minimized (despite being a rolled-on paint mix) since that was something that always somewhat bothered me about the BlackDiamond. On the other hand, the BD1.4's narrower viewing-cone should technically allow it to reject ambient-light from a wider array of angles.
It's more about picking what's most important to you and your situation than picking a clear winner.

Because it is still possible to make the highest-gain mix have a darker surface in ambient light, that will probably be my next test. It should allow for a screen that's every bit as dark or darker than the BD1.4 while still matching its on-axis gain. Making the screen with a slight curve should solve any possible issues with left/right dimming and brightness uniformity, then all that's left will be working to perfect the viewing-cone for seating arrangements of roughly 10ft-14ft width.

Because the store was kind enough to let me use my own projector for this, I was also able to take a decent collection of pictures of certain scenes using the same projector, distance/size, angles, camera, and roughly the same lighting as I've been using for everything else. So there's also groups of straight VS angled shots using the same scenes (and occasionally a white sheet in the same shot as well) using the 1:1, 3:1, 2:1, and BD1.4 screens. But, none of these are directly side-by-side, so they are of much more limited value.
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Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.

Last edited by Ftoast; 01-05-2015 at 04:04 PM.
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post #184 of 196 Old 01-06-2015, 09:34 AM
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These images were all taken using the same 90lumen projector to create a ~55" image (equivalent to a 400lument projector filling a 110" screen) and the same L9 camera on auto.

These are the BlackDiamond1.4 in soft ambient-light, both on-axis and from far enought left/right so that a shoulder is in-line with the screen's edge but the head/camera is outside.






This is the 1part RalphLauren metallic:2parts flat-black mix in soft ambient-light, from the same viewing-angles and size.





This is the 1part RLmetallic:1part flat-black mix in soft ambient-light (and with a lamp directed at the screen in some shots) at the same size, but not always the same angles.





This is the 4parts RLmetallic: 1part flat-black mix taken in bright daylight at the same size and some of the same angles.

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Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.

Last edited by Ftoast; 01-06-2015 at 11:22 AM.
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post #185 of 196 Old 01-06-2015, 09:49 AM
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post #186 of 196 Old 01-06-2015, 10:05 AM
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Attachments not showing up.
S.I. must have found out about the thread

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post #187 of 196 Old 01-06-2015, 11:46 AM
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They are to me.

The telling thing to note is if the Thumbnails are present after you post. Many folks do the Attachment Download, but forget to / don't know about pasting in the Image Location URL into the "Insert Image" location. If that is not done, the Images will appear to the Thread Starter, but to no one else.

BTW, there was no "Update" done. What happened was the Forum Ownership changed hands and the new Owners "had to" switch the Hosting Program. It was a "no choice" thingy....not a matter of preference.

Still not too crazy about the all too obvious Hot Spotting on both the painted examples.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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post #188 of 196 Old 01-06-2015, 12:42 PM
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I need to see if a different camera does a better job of showing the uniformity. The 1:2 and 1:1 mixes don't hotspot to the eye, but the L9 makes it look every bit as bad as the 4:1mix, which is silly. The 3:1 and 4:1 mixes hotspot to a similar point as the BD1.4 to the eyes, but that can be fixed by curving the screen. I'm going to need to experiment with different cameras apparently.

Edit: OR see if the L9 prefers a larger screen. These were taken using a ~400lumen PJ on the 110" screen during the day. If anything, 400lm on 110" should be brighter (more prone to hotspot?) than 90lm on 55"..maybe the camera prefers the added distance required? Anyway, these look closer to what the eye sees though the L9 is still trying to hotspot it a little.
The top row was me sitting at the screen's center and looking left/center/right to show what the screen is being exposed to.
The second row has some printer-paper in front of the screen for a little reference. This same paper is a dead-on match for a Stewart 1.3gain screen on-axis as well as my flat/matte-white screen and is slightly brighter than the BlackDiamond1.4 on-axis.
Hurray for manufacturer gain specs.



For as much as I talk about dark screens looking silly and being a poor choice in a decently treated or dedicated room (this $35-40 rolled paint version included), I forgot how cool this thing looks in the light.
Pretty sure it just liked having the opportunity to come back out of storage for a little while.
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Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.

Last edited by Ftoast; 01-06-2015 at 06:21 PM.
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post #189 of 196 Old 01-06-2015, 05:22 PM
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Now maybe if I were to grab a 1600lumen PJ (anyone feel like loaning out their w1070?) and paint a 220" screen onto the side of the house, perhaps that would convince the L9 camera to take a perfect picture.

On the bright side, those limited by 8ft ceilings can pair a 110" screen with practically anything running cinema settings on eco-lamp with 2000+hours in and still hit 400lumens..that'll match the above pictured brightness.

On the down side, the forum appears to be swallowing my posts again.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #190 of 196 Old 01-06-2015, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Now maybe if I were to grab a 1600lumen PJ (anyone feel like loaning out their w1070?) and paint a 220" screen onto the side of the house, perhaps that would convince the L9 camera to take a perfect picture.

On the bright side, those limited by 8ft ceilings can pair a 110" screen with practically anything running cinema settings on eco-lamp with 2000+hours in and still hit 400lumens..that'll match the above pictured brightness.

On the down side, the forum appears to be swallowing my posts again.
If you were local, I'd be willing to bring my W1070 over to see what 1600 lumens looks like on your painted screens.

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post #191 of 196 Old 01-07-2015, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Now maybe if I were to grab a 1600lumen PJ (anyone feel like loaning out their w1070?) and paint a 220" screen onto the side of the house, perhaps that would convince the L9 camera to take a perfect picture.

On the bright side, those limited by 8ft ceilings can pair a 110" screen with practically anything running cinema settings on eco-lamp with 2000+hours in and still hit 400lumens..that'll match the above pictured brightness.

On the down side, the forum appears to be swallowing my posts again.
Would an approach with a glaze done very finely with white pearl over the dark base work? Or does only white work? I know white pearl over white works. In the CRT days using a glaze over white, like Rosco White-White and white pearl gave a screen similar to a Studiotek 130.
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post #192 of 196 Old 01-07-2015, 11:43 AM
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Would an approach with a glaze done very finely with white pearl over the dark base work? Or does only white work? I know white pearl over white works. In the CRT days using a glaze over white, like Rosco White-White and white pearl gave a screen similar to a Studiotek 130.
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.
Over a plain matte-black base, or as a diffuser layer over a metallic black?

Does only white work as a first layer or instead of pearl?

First, I can only theorize for the most part because almost everything I've been doing is using zero white or pearl and I haven't been doing any multi-layer screens with different layer types.

The glaze (or untinted dark-base, or matte poly) works as a diffuser by itself so I'd believe mixing a little pearl or white would make it both lighter in shade as well as more diffuse. The pearl would also help retain some of the gain naturally lost from diffusing.

I think a white back layer with a darker diffuser would be better than a black back and light colored diffuser because all light (including ambient) lights up the diffuser but the back layer will get hit more by straight-line projected light and less lit-up/washed-out by sideways or diagonal light (mostly ambient and room reflections).

...am I at all responding to the question properly?


I guess in short; it should work to some extent for rejecting ambient light and adding some gain, but it would be a tiny bit more complicated to make (not much though) and it'd be quite a bit lighter whenever white or pearl gets added..especially as a last layer.

Also, while it's probably fine for spraying, I ran into the worst roller-mark problems while using glaze or clear-matte mixed with metallic.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.

Last edited by Ftoast; 01-07-2015 at 11:50 AM.
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post #193 of 196 Old 01-07-2015, 01:19 PM
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Yeah, I meant the opposite of SILVER which is a white base coat, with a glaze tinted silver top coat sprayed in multiple thin coats. So instead put a black base with a glaze tinted white pearl sprayed in multiple thin coats.

By the sound of your post, my pondering won't work.
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post #194 of 196 Old 01-07-2015, 01:54 PM
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I think it could work as a light or very reflective base and a sprayed glaze+dark metallic mix. I'd imagine you could keep adding layers until it's as dark as you want..within reason.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #195 of 196 Old 01-07-2015, 09:20 PM
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I think it could work as a light or very reflective base and a sprayed glaze+dark metallic mix. I'd imagine you could keep adding layers until it's as dark as you want..within reason.
You heard of this stuff called bismuth oxychloride? It's one of the most shiny compound in paints. I wonder if that could work as the base with a even darker top coat glaze.

http://www.dickblick.com/items/00699-1010/
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post #196 of 196 Old 01-07-2015, 10:15 PM
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You heard of this stuff called bismuth oxychloride? It's one of the most shiny compound in paints. I wonder if that could work as the base with a even darker top coat glaze.

http://www.dickblick.com/items/00699-1010/
I haven't seen that before, looks interesting. Whether or not it'll work as a base under something else depends how it gets its shine. If it's more of a glossy shine, covering it with anything else (so it's no longer the top layer) will take away its reflective properties and turn it into a flat/matte of whatever color it is. If the reflectivity comes by other means, it could make an effective high-gain base.
It is prohibitively expensive though at nearly $10/ounce..it'd cost $200-$300 to coat a 100"-110" screen.

Then again, if someone tries it and discovers it to be a miracle on wheels, a few hundred dollars isn't that bad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is a 3:1 (RalphLauren GardenTwilight:Flat/matte-DeepOnyx) 110"screen on a bright day using the 400lumen projector.
The pictures show how much light can be seen from the screen's position (top row), a rough example of how wide viewing-cone is (middle row), as well as what the relative on-axis white and black brightness is compared to flat/matte-white (bottom row).


Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.

Last edited by Ftoast; 01-08-2015 at 02:05 PM.
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