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post #1 of 36 Old 09-28-2012, 01:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to spray my BOC screen, possibly as early as this weekend (if I can ever make up my mind what mix to use).

I know the "fuzzies" that pop up when spraying are an issue. Some members have said this can be eliminated by rolling on the first coat. Highside has suggested rolling paint mixed with Floetrol. But a lot of his advice seemed geared towaring rolling the whole mix, and I'm not sure if it's overkill for me -- I just want to prime the screen and then spray the actual mix.

So, any advice? Can I just roll on a coat of Killz? Do I need 2 coats? Is the Floetrol necessary? Should I sand between coats?
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post #2 of 36 Old 09-28-2012, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's Highside's post from another forum, hope he doesn't mind:
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...Rolling the screen is actually quite easy and will go on rather well if it is not one of the more advanced mixes. If you are needing to roll, here's what you do....

Lay your screen on the floor. As long as gravity doesn't sag your screen in this position, it's tight enough. Cover your trim with whatever method and have plastic underneath.

The mixing is quite easy and from my experience doesn't need to be dead on in amounts. Trust me;, this is not intended for a "SILVER" type job. Find one of the simple gray paints form one of the other threads here. Get a quart of it. Mix in about a 1/2 cup of Wagner brand "Floetrol" and some poly. You could even add some of the metallic paints if you so desire.

Your mix should be thinner than the paint alone, but not milky thin. Before I bought one of those squirrel mixers, I used an electric mixer beater chucked into a drill and it did just fine.... All mixed up.

Now use your typical paint rolling supplies but.....have a large scrap piece of cardboard and attach a broom handle to extend the roller handle. You need to be able to make one long stroke.

Load the roller with paint fairly heavy, then lightly unload it onto the scrap cardboard. Then roll the ends of the roller on the scrap. You're trying not to create an extra paint edge with the excess paint that typically works its way to the outside edges of the roller.

My method is a simple modification to tiddler's method as I only use one roller. (the white 3/16 rolls that can only be found at Lowes). Start at one side of the screen and using ZERO pressure on the roller, lay your roller in the middle and work all the way up, then all the way down letting the weight of the roller do the work (this is important with BOC). Don't worry if the roller slides or pushes at first. I t will begin to roll usually after the first stroke. All you need is a couple of strokes to get the screen (row) completely covered. Now reload and place the roller right next to the painted edge and do the same thing then work back to that previously painted 9". Don't over work it. Just a 2-3 full strokes to get your unpainted row done, then 2-3 more to blend back to the previous row. Don't go more than 1 or 2 rows back, the paint will be starting to get a bit tacky.

Continue this all the way across.

2 things now. The Floetrol WILL HELP level the paint as long as you can lay your screen flat while you roll. While blending into the previous row, WATCH to make sure the ends of the roller aren't leaving a slightly thicker "line" of paint. If so, immediately go over to your scrap and roll the ends out to get rid of that build up then get back to your blending and make sure that is corrected first.

If you're really fast (or confident) you can immediately go back and do another coat that will help blend it all together. I would wait though.

Let it dry a day, hand sand it with a piece of 320 grit feeling as you go along just to knock off the fuzz. (There really should be little to no fuzz even after the first coat, but more so any oddities that you would like to remove before another coat) Do not use a sanding block, they gouge BOC too easily. Wipe clean..

Repeat...

I don't mind doing that if that's what I need to do, but if it's more than is needed to just roll on enough primer to keep the fuzzies down for spraying....
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post #3 of 36 Old 09-28-2012, 10:53 AM
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Rolling still carries with it all the risks of such. Also, the fabric tension needed to adequately support the pressure of the roller evenly across it's width must be about as tight as you can pull it.

Spraying will create Fuzzies...but they do in fact sand down easily...and spraying offers up none of the risks associated with rolling.

Spray two coats of primer.....sand lightly, spray again,,,sand...and your going to be ready to go with a primed base coat that will be 10x less thick than 2 rolled coats.

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post #4 of 36 Old 09-28-2012, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Any reason to actually use primer instead of going straight to UPW or something? Would either work better than the other to flatten fuzzies and provide a good base for the final mix coats?
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post #5 of 36 Old 09-28-2012, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, and I know this is many other threads but I can't find one at the moment, how long is typically enough to dry between coats? Assume indoors, 65-70 degrees.
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post #6 of 36 Old 09-29-2012, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, gonna do a test panel of BOC today (spraying) and see if fuzzies are kept under control. If so, I'm going to paint my screen with UPW tonight in preparation for RS-MM-LL on Wednesday (when the Rustoleum arrives). If not, I'll roll on the UPW.
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post #7 of 36 Old 09-29-2012, 05:52 PM
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Your the power tool that flattens the fuzzies. And be advised that after the first two coats of whatever (Primer or UPW...it matters not...) when you sand down the first case of fuzzies, while you might still get a few on the final 3rd coat...after those are sanded, there are almost never any more that develop from that point onward.

Side note:

Some take to sanding the surface after the first coat. That's ok...but it really has roots in people doing so after a 1st "Rolled"coat.' 'It can't hurt...so if you want to sand after the 1st - 2nd - and 3rd coat, you wouldn't be redundant...just extra through.

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post #8 of 36 Old 09-29-2012, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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How much pressure applied with the sanding sponge (assuming I'm using the Fine side?)? Circular or straight motions?

So far in my tests I notice quite a bit of texture on the BOC, but nothing I would call "fuzzies". Going to start on my actual screen soon.
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post #9 of 36 Old 09-29-2012, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

How much pressure applied with the sanding sponge (assuming I'm using the Fine side?)? Circular or straight motions?
So far in my tests I notice quite a bit of texture on the BOC, but nothing I would call "fuzzies". Going to start on my actual screen soon.

Light vertical strokes that overlap each preceding stroke.

BTW...your supposed to be painting the Coated side. Until any painting occurs, it should be and will appear very smooth.

When paint is spray applied, the static created at the surface is what creates the fuzzies...and fuzzies are dried paint that is lifted to a more vertical, thread-like orientation.

After they (fuzzies) are dealt with 2x, the static issue is resolved and they stop appearing.

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post #10 of 36 Old 09-29-2012, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks as always. Finished third coat on test panel. After no coat did I see anything I would call "fuzzies", but the texture is very rough (been using UPW 1850 so far). Should I keep putting on UPW until I get a smooth surface, or go to the RS-MM-LL after 3 coats even though it seems rough? I'll put up a pic soon.

edit: Yeah, by texture I mean paint texture. I am painting on the smooth side.

Here's the texture after three coats, light sanding (very little pressure, more just sweeping the sponge across with no real weight on it) after coats 2 and 3:

texture.jpg

Also, I feel like I'm using WAY too much paint. I thin it to the point where it pours off the mixer like soup, and doesn't pool in the sock strainer. But (for example) I loaded up the container with something like 18oz of paint and after one coat of my screen (45 sq ft) it seems like it's almost empty, and that's a coat that was fast enough that I thought I was doing a duster. Also takes about an hour to dry to the touch. I guess that means it's definitely too much paint? But it seems crazy to add more water, I think this was 12oz of UPW and 6oz of water (at least 4oz for sure).
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post #11 of 36 Old 09-30-2012, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, definitely using too much paint (somehow). My aforementioned 16-18oz sputtered out in the middle of just the second coat on my screen. I swear it went smoothly through the sock strainer and that I moved faster even than you (MM) in your videos. It took 3 seconds or less I think to get across my 124" wide screen. Tomorrow it's back to Home Depot for more UPW. Should have bought the gallon in the first place!
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post #12 of 36 Old 09-30-2012, 07:52 AM
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Well first off, your loading too little paint into the cup. I always load at least 24-28 oz. It's better to have some left than to sputter out.

However it sounds like your diluting the paint just fine....don't change that. And keep that speed up....you can't go wrong dusting on too little like you can applying too much.

Lastly, sand the last coat of UPW until you feel and see a difference. Your texture doesn't seem bad....but if your using the 2mm tip that the Graco came with, your paint droplets could be bunching up a bit. Speed and distance are the problem solvers, accompanied by the ultra light sanding between coats. But remember...as the layers of paint build up, each subsequent coat takes longer to dry to a point sanding can be effective. Rubbery paint does not sand well...it tends to instead roll up into little balls.

I'm considering suggesting from here on out that those who can get the Graco for the under $40.00 price order the 1.5mm tip from the Mfg to further refine the spray texture. Proper dusting can do the same, but as in all such things, the more aspects a project has that should be done in an exacting manner, the more opportunity there is that 1 - 2 things get skewered a bit.

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post #13 of 36 Old 09-30-2012, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there a rule of thumb as to how many ounces of diluted mixture I should be going through for x number of duster coats? Total screen size is something like 56 x 127.

And sorry, I think you may have answered this, but I'm not sure this is what you were referring to: Should I keep putting on UPW until I get a smooth surface, or go to the RS-MM-LL after 3+ coats even though it still feels sandpapery?
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post #14 of 36 Old 09-30-2012, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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After coat 4 (4.5 if you count the one that sputtered out), it's looking quite good. No longer worried. I'm doing so many coats partly to make sure I have a good smooth base for the RS-MM-LL on Wednesday, but also because I want a good smooth finish to watch stuff on before then. No, I cannot go 3 days without my projector.
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post #15 of 36 Old 09-30-2012, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Gotta say, one problem I've been having that I haven't seen mentioned is the hose getting in the way. To have enough length to reach the ends of my screen, that means in the middle sections it's bunching and looping and getting in the way of my walking.
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post #16 of 36 Old 09-30-2012, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Gotta say, one problem I've been having that I haven't seen mentioned is the hose getting in the way. To have enough length to reach the ends of my screen, that means in the middle sections it's bunching and looping and getting in the way of my walking.

Watch my videos...note how I hold the hose in my left hand with it crossing behind my back, and I extend my arm to the side and slightly to the rear. This works to keep the Hose out from underfoot...which is a good thing considering that if you step on the Hose while spraying, when you step off of it it (...the Gun...) will go "SPLAT" and you'll get a big blob of paint on the screen.

Avoid doing that.

If it does happen, dab / wipe the blob off gently and dust over the spot.

Better still....avoid doing that.

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post #17 of 36 Old 09-30-2012, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I ended up doing 7 coats. Like I said, I need a smooth surface to use the projector until I can do the RS-MM-LL.

Coat #7 for sure was superfluous, and #6 too, really. Coat 5 was basically smooth. If I were going right to a mix, I'm sure I could have stopped at #3 or #4 and let the mix coats do the rest, as you said. In any case, I'm comfortable with the sprayer now and don't think spraying the final mix will present any issues now.
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post #18 of 36 Old 09-30-2012, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Smooth is a relative term apparently. Projected image is visibly grainy. Also significant hotspotting; I thought UPW flat 1850 wouldn't do that?
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post #19 of 36 Old 10-01-2012, 08:51 AM
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UPW Flat should not hot spot. Are you certain you did not get Satin?

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post #20 of 36 Old 10-01-2012, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep. Got this one, says 1850 and flat on the label.

Might be my projector or something else going on in the room or something. Looking through my pics, my BOC showed the same "hotspot" pattern. So, whatever.

However, I am having trouble mixing the Liquitex Basics. No matter what it seems to remain clumpy. The silver just doesn't want to mix with the rest. edit: Kitchen mixer worked perfectly for this.
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post #21 of 36 Old 10-01-2012, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, when I get to the RS-MM-LL, is there any sanding I should be doing between coats?
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post #22 of 36 Old 10-01-2012, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Might be my projector or something else going on in the room or something. Looking through my pics, my BOC showed the same "hotspot" pattern. So, whatever. Also, when I get to the RS-MM-LL, is there any sanding I should be doing between coats?

Sanding after the 3rd & 4th coats are ok....do not sand the last finish coat.

To address the other question.....

Many projectors either have, or can develop a tendency to show a brighter center. Some of such can be traced to the len's attributes (...think "magnifying glass effect...)

In truth, when both the PJ and the screen lean toward such, the effect can become very apparent. I'd have to say though that in the case of BOC, it's the brightness at center being caused by the lack of gain of the BOC being bad enough that once the intensity of the projected light starts to drop of going outward from center, the rate of loss of foot lamberts increases proportionately....because the BOC isn't an efficient reflector.

But it's not all centered about the Screen's ability / inabilities. Very few...in fact almost no PJ / lens combo approaches better than 95% uniformity, and Screens as a whole are lucky to be at 90%...even unity gain versions.

Screens that are markedly Retro-Reflective usually exhibit such lack of uniformity the most. Hot Spotting is rife among High Gain Screens.

But an overriding element is the use of Zoom and the distance the PJ's light cone must travel before striking the screen's surface. Increase Throw Distance and use less zoom, and such ill effects decrease.

Jam the PJ up close and use Zoom to the max, and it's akin to spotlighting the screen, and focusing brightness at dead center. The center of a greatly zoomed image will always be brighter than the edges.

But here's a revelation....Hot Spotting isn't the correct term for what is being described...it's "Warm Spotting". That description applies to a large area that appears 'slightly brighter' at center and slightly less bright at the edges. (aka: a lack of reflective uniformity ) Hot Spotting is when bright highlights are blown out of focus...and lose detail, and actually start to shine.

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post #23 of 36 Old 10-02-2012, 12:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting. I am in fact at max zoom and shortest throw when zoomed out for 2.35, but not for 16:9. I also have to say that this is not something I'd ever notice when actually watching video rather than looking at a stationary test pattern.
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post #24 of 36 Old 10-02-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Interesting. I am in fact at max zoom and shortest throw when zoomed out for 2.35, but not for 16:9. I also have to say that this is not something I'd ever notice when actually watching video rather than looking at a stationary test pattern.

Yeah...I know...but not so strangely, some like to use exactly that sort of observation to supposedly show how a screen exhibits Hot Spotting.(warm spotting) I stopped paying attention to such proselytizing a long time ago because all it amounts to is someone grasping at something...anything to dismiss something they do not want others to accept as being valid and workable. So they insist that if such a thing is apparent, it must be corrected. This results in "over-correction" and limits a DIY Screen's ability to do a variety of service and instead severely limits it's range thereof.

A Blue Screen w/Test pattern, or just a blue Start-Up Screen is not a good indication of what a PJ's performance under actual content viewing will be. The same thing goes for taking a shot of a projected image, then inverting it into a negative. Such "tricks" will always tend to ex calibrate any variance in light...but those variances are NOT visible under normal conditions.

The more aware you become about such things and how they relate to real-world viewing, then more you can separate the hyperbole and misleading references. When you see others depend on such things to prove a point, that should tell you much about why they do so and how deceptive they can be if their motives and goals demand such.

The truth is, a sub-1.0 gain surface visually shows less such aberration because frankly, it's simply showing less of everything yet take a "negative" shot of such a screen and lo & behold....there that 'ol "warm spot is. Another truth....only a very few DIY Screens can achieve what amounts to 1.3 gain or higher without having image quality be grossly affected. The final truth? There exists a wide gap between what some feel is perfect...what others feel is perfectly acceptable...and what some feel is wholly unacceptable. Having any DIY Screen application that is completely adjustable along whatever demands and desires a DIY'er wants to place upon a given situation is almost priceless. All you really have to do is zone in on what you really want / need...accept what it takes to reach that goal...and then Get'ter Dun!

In your case, viewing distance as relates to Screen size, as relates to your own visual acuity determines how satisfied your going to be. Higher gain screens can seldom avoid any vestige of graininess, especially if any real degree of ambient light viewing potential is desired. RS-MM-LL has the highest gain possible without creating undue graininess. So much so that virtually no one ever makes comment about seeing such. However, some people with big screens who sit close, and have 20-10 Lasik vision will notice...if they try hard enough or have it pointed out to them.

The same applies to any mild degree of warm spotting. During the playing of actual content...it's never an issue....never. Yet it can be seen in specially taken photos or when a bright, monotone color image field is shown.

Your being pretty meticulous in your efforts so I'm fairly confident your going to be both subjective and objective with your final conclusions. But most of all, fair and sensible in your determinations.

Until you reach that point, be sure to pose any final Questions before you go so far as to have to ask "How come?" or worse....."Why the hell did I.....???!!!" wink.gif

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post #25 of 36 Old 10-02-2012, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Uh oh. So naturally when I go for the first "money" coat of RS-MM-LL, it seems like I may have added too much water. Came out in far-spaced wet grey dots here and there, very watery. I guess my only path is to mix a bit more of the RS-MM-LL, which will be tricky because it will be small amounts, and add it in to thicken the pot?

later edit: Yeah, I don't know what's going on. I added the remaining 2oz of Liquitex plus the respective amounts of the rest and no additional water, remixed and strained, and I'm having the same problem. Instead of a finely atomized mist I'm getting very far apart wet splotches. I then tried a smaller pot that was *thinner* than the earlier, and same deal.

I guess I'm done for the night. Right now my screen, which I had sanded the 7 coats of UPW to a nice smooth(ish) surface, is sitting there covered in far apart globs. Just not giving me the nice mist that I got with the UPW and the Cream&Sugar I used on a test panel. Plus I'm still blowing through paint like crazy. I just filled the container with 32oz of mix and used 16 on one coat that looks like hell. At that rate I'll be lucky to get 3 more coats, so I really need to make them count.

Here's a pic but I'm not sure how representative it is; the light wasn't that great. You can sort of see how the MM is kind of spaced out globs on top of the UPW.

rs-mm-ll-coat-3.jpg

For a better pic, what kind/direction of lighting should I be going for?
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post #26 of 36 Old 10-03-2012, 12:38 AM
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When one does a Duster, the first coat does look "Globular" however the spots flatten out. Subsequent coats build up to fill in the spaces.

Of course if too much water is added and the mix is too thin, then the gun will tend to spit. My best suggestion is to recall the fluidity level of the C&S mix and duplicate that, then test the Guns performance "Before" you start spraying onto the BOC.

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post #27 of 36 Old 10-03-2012, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so I got the MM to the same viscosity as my UPW that was spraying fine, judging by pouring through sock strainer (I also out of curiosity verified with viscosity cup, and both were pouring through at 45 seconds).

UPW still seems like it's being atomized better, here is the bottom end of a pass on a piece of wood:

upw-macro.jpg

And here are the bigger, blotchier splats of the RS-MM-LL:

mm-macro.jpg

Anything else I should do, or should I just start laying down coats and hope it evens out?
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post #28 of 36 Old 10-03-2012, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Two or three coats down, two or three to go based on how much paint is left. Have some major orange peel going. Afraid to sand because I only have probably 2 coats' left of paint left for sure (since the Graco starts spitting when there's still a good bit of paint left) and I'm afraid of removing too much with the sanding, and those final two coats not being enough to get the luster back.
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post #29 of 36 Old 10-04-2012, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, it's done and hanging. I can tell already the grain is going to keep this from being a keeper. That's not a problem with the RS-MM-LL, it's a problem with my painting technique I guess, since I had it with the UPW as well. Skies and light colored areas are like they're under frosted glass. I'm off camping now, will probably buy a new piece of BOC when I get back and just go back to ol' faithful.
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post #30 of 36 Old 10-04-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Well, it's done and hanging. I can tell already the grain is going to keep this from being a keeper. That's not a problem with the RS-MM-LL, it's a problem with my painting technique I guess, since I had it with the UPW as well. Skies and light colored areas are like they're under frosted glass. I'm off camping now, will probably buy a new piece of BOC when I get back and just go back to ol' faithful.

If you want to consider a solution, get a 1.5 mm Needle as I'm certain the bigger 2.0 version is the root cause of your issue. It's of little comfort to you now, but from now on I'm going to suggest that while the Graco can be had for so low...that people spring for the accessory Needle Kit from the Mfg.

Follow my "Tab Tensioned Screen painting" thread to see what results I got with a 1mm tip and Silver Fire. (1 mm Tip drags out the painting time intolerably but produces a ultra fine droplet mixture...1.5 mm would be the ideal compromise.)

Give use a overall impression on the performance of the RS-MM LL (sans the paint texture issue...) as I and others would value your observations.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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