110" DIY Spandex AT Screen - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 713 Old 08-09-2014, 06:20 PM
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Is it up yet......? I and many others would like to know of your evaluation.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"


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post #632 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 11:46 AM
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Hey guys I am entering the world of a PJ and screen. I am the type to do my rounds of research and make the best possible decision. I am sure many of you are the same. I have always focused on the audio side of my system. I recently got a OppoBD103D using my 50 inch Panasonic ST model plasma. Great picture for sure but is terribly undersized. It will make a good bedroom set...I am doing PJ research but may settle on the Sony 55ES. I am not money bags like some on AVS but like to buy the right stuff I will have for years. I plan on getting the PJ around after the first of the year. I also plan on a DIY screen that I want to make acoustically transparent. Not sure if this particular spandex screen is AT. Getting my center channel up behind the screen will be a great audio upgrade at the same time. I have a friend who did a DIY AT screen with Falcon material and loves it. So perhaps a few pointers or some nice AT DIY threads you know of? Thanks!

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post #633 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 12:08 PM
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Golly....just go this thread ............
Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth

and start on Post 138: Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth
and read the results of the Tests done using a dual layer of Milliskin Spandex, and note that the audio results were as good as and in some cases better than some very expensive Mfg AT Screens. Cost? Ridiculously less.

For an even better comparison, go to the start of the Thread above and compare the Milliskin results to the initially tested Moleskin....and you will note that there is a substantial difference even between the two Spandex varieties. When one notes that the Moleskin is equal to expensive Mfg AT Cloth and less expensive by a huge margin, and that Milliskin is even better than Moleskin....whats not to get excited about?

Visually, Spandex is superior to all AT material as far as the smoothness of the image. There is no chance whatsoever of seeing perforations, a weave, or any resulting Morie. It's only caveat is it being lessor in Gain. But if you optimize your PJ's throw so that it delivers it's highest Lumen output to the Screen...it's all good.

Example: 120" diagonal White over White Milliskin Spandex Screen with Sony HW55ES set at 12' - 10" delivers 17 foot lambert.....plenty to spare in any Dedicated Theater with even a bit of ambient light.

Let us know your decision and ask for any help you might need.

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post #634 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Golly....just go this thread ............
Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth

and start on Post 138: Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth
and read the results of the Tests done using a dual layer of Milliskin Spandex, and note that the audio results were as good as and in some cases better than some very expensive Mfg AT Screens. Cost? Ridiculously less.

For an even better comparison, go to the start of the Thread above and compare the Milliskin to Moleskin....and you will note that there is a substantial difference even between the two Spandex varieties. When one notes that the Moleskin is equal to expensive Mfg AT Cloth and less expensive by a huge margin, and that Milliskin is even better than Moleskin....whats not to get excited about?

Visually, Spandex is superior to all AT material as far as the smoothness of the image. There is no chance whatsoever of seeing perforations, a weave, or any resulting Morie. It's only caveat is it being lessor in Gain. But if you optimize your PJ's throw so that it delivers it's highest Lumen output to the Screen...it's all good.

Example: 120" diagonal White over White Milliskin Spandex Screen with Sony HW55ES set at 12' - 10" delivers 17 foot lambert.....plenty to spare in any Dedicated Theater with even a bit of ambient light.

Let us know your decision and ask for any help you might need.
Yea I did awhile back and this thread has been on my subscriptions for awhile. I will again. I will have the PJ about 10.5ft from the screen, in a living room. So ambient light is an issue BUT blackout shades are planned. and sometimes we have a lamp on while watching. Not much light though...I did hear from my AVS friend who did the Falcon material said he couldn't see the weave until 5-6ft. But if what you say is true spandex is superior in smoother image. Anyway I have always had this thread in the back of my mind in mentally planning. Will be doing about 100 inch screen sitting about 9ft from head to screen measurement. Putting my JTR Triple 8 LP model center channel behind the screen is also priority and will be unique in that I don't have a false wall and am in a living room. But I am confident I can draw up an effective plan.

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post #635 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 12:33 PM
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A smallish screen viewed from 9 feet away sounds like a perfect application for Spandex.
The hit you take on gain using spandex compared to a Center Stage XD or Falcon coated fabric will actually be a benefit with a small, 100 inch screen.
At 9 feet, on bright images, I would expect to catch the odd, slight flash of fabric weave with the Falcon, but with spandex it will be buttery smooth.
Consider that a double layer of Spandex is about 1/3 the price and the choice is easy.

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post #636 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post
A smallish screen viewed from 9 feet away sounds like a perfect application for Spandex.
The hit you take on gain using spandex compared to a Center Stage XD or Falcon coated fabric will actually be a benefit with a small, 100 inch screen.
At 9 feet, on bright images, I would expect to catch the odd, slight flash of fabric weave with the Falcon, but with spandex it will be buttery smooth.
Consider that a double layer of Spandex is about 1/3 the price and the choice is easy.
Thanks David! and others I love the fact we in this hobby consider a 100 inch screen "smallish" just love it! Some people think my 50 inch plasma at 8.5ft is HUGE! I just shake my head...I will do a biggest as possible screen when we figure out are future and a dedicated room comes into play. Thats why I am going all out (for me) on a PJ and the 55ES is in a commanding 1st place...The screen I don't want to have tons invested since it will be not permanent so I think the spandex may be the winner. Perhaps a "brand" name in the future, maybe not...So I will read through this thread until I ask questions. I plan on having my center behind and will have to build a frame that "holds" the screen/frame so I can get a little space for my center speaker. I also am a little worried about screen and PJ movement as I have two 2400 watt Seaton Submersive subwoofers. I get flat to 7hz in my room. I am not opposed to running a sloping filter but really I would go any higher than 14hz but that could help. Anyway lots of research to do! I think I might love the chase more than I love the finished product...I need help...

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post #637 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I think I might love the chase more than I love the finished product...I need help...
You joined AVS 18 months ago and have close to 4000 posts...sorry buddy, I would agree...help needed. It amazes me how this hobby has sucked me in as well, with the only thing limiting my investment in time and money being family responsibilities.

Sad that so many are about the chase and not the finished product. You are not alone. I on the other hand absolutely love watching movies. I have a mediocre system by most standards. Benq W1070 - excellent detail and color accuracy but substandard contrast, a middle of the road AVR, Hi-Fi speakers from 20 years ago, and a single 10 inch subwoofer...but I love watching movies. I spend hours watching and re-watching...I have 500+ blurays and would watch every last one each year if only I had the time. I have experimented with every combination of spandex possible to find the one best suited to my gear, setup and tastes. My desire to upgrade audio and video components is simply to increase the pleasure of watching movies. For those who are more about the gear than the experience...you have my sympathy.

.

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post #638 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 04:52 PM
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JLpowell84:

Read:

A 135" Diagonal 2.35:1 White Milliskin over Light Silver Milliskin Spandex Screen Build.

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post #639 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 04:53 PM
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What would you say is the gain for these spandex at screens?
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post #640 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
What would you say is the gain for these spandex at screens?
White on White 0.9
White on Silver 0.8
White on Black 0.7
Silver on White 0.8

Those are approximates....but adjudged to be very close...close enough to figure by.
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post #641 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post
You joined AVS 18 months ago and have close to 4000 posts...sorry buddy, I would agree...help needed. It amazes me how this hobby has sucked me in as well, with the only thing limiting my investment in time and money being family responsibilities.

Sad that so many are about the chase and not the finished product. You are not alone. I on the other hand absolutely love watching movies. I have a mediocre system by most standards. Benq W1070 - excellent detail and color accuracy but substandard contrast, a middle of the road AVR, Hi-Fi speakers from 20 years ago, and a single 10 inch subwoofer...but I love watching movies. I spend hours watching and re-watching...I have 500+ blurays and would watch every last one each year if only I had the time. I have experimented with every combination of spandex possible to find the one best suited to my gear, setup and tastes. My desire to upgrade audio and video components is simply to increase the pleasure of watching movies. For those who are more about the gear than the experience...you have my sympathy.
Perhaps my smile while writing would have helped to better understand. I don't make tons of money and have a 50k system like some around here. I have accumulated a pretty decent system yes. Perhaps also my view of the chase is different as well I love learning about new things, discovering, conquering, figuring out. It stirs my blood. Now I enjoy my system massively! It's just my wife, me and our cat. So our two seated auto reclining couch and movies or one of our favorite shows are on nearly every day. It is the single most time consuming thing we do outside of work. We just love watching and relaxing. And on the ever continuing improving system it makes for a very nice experience. But I love to improve that experience and learn more just as much. I wouldn't say it's a bad thing AT ALL. Now maybe someone who spends 10k every year and pays someone to build, setup and calibrate their system is what you are thinking of I have spent countless nights with REW and my measurement mic running sweeps, building room treatments to tame specular reflections and see the scientific data and hear it! So...

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post #642 of 713 Old 08-10-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
You got it! Thanks

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post #643 of 713 Old 08-11-2014, 07:50 AM
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Is it up yet......? I and many others would like to know of your evaluation.
2 of the 3 panels are up and complete. I haven't had the chance to fire up the projector with them up but I can tell you I have led's behind the panels and no light passed through them once I put them up.

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post #644 of 713 Old 08-11-2014, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
White on White 0.9
White on Silver 0.8
White on Black 0.7
Silver on White 0.8

Those are approximates....but adjudged to be very close...close enough to figure by.
Probably depends on the exact spandex you are using and the amount of stretch you apply but my experience is that the White on Black is brighter than the Silver on White, but in general MississipiMan's estimates are pretty close based on my direct comparision with the Seymour XD & UF materials which have been accurately measured by a third party.

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I got pics up of my room. Link is in my sig below. Basically I plan on building a frame of some sort to receive/hold the screen frame. And out away from the wall slightly for the center channel to go behind. From left speaker to right speaker is exactly 100 inches horizontally. Plan is to get the biggest as possible. I will remove those acoustical panels as they serve no acoustical purpose. I built too many and put them there for cosmetic purposes and to get more black on that wall...

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post #646 of 713 Old 08-11-2014, 04:42 PM
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I am curious if anyone has done any testing of the spandex acoustically? For example, I bought a bunch of black microsuede fabric from ATS acoustics to build all of my room treatments with. When I got it I noticed it didn't seem 100% acoustically transparent. Well nearly everything will never be 100% unless you have dinky speaker cloth. Usually everything will have at least a slight effect. Anyway I tested it by cutting pieces and draping them over my subwoofers and speakers. I ran a 5hz to 20,000hz sweep in REW with my Cross Spectrum Labs UMM-6 USB mic and the graph showed a gradual very even slope right at 1,000hz. Nothing below was effected and at 20,000hz it was down like 50db. I know spandex won't have effects like that. Just curious if anyone has actually measured

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post #647 of 713 Old 08-11-2014, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I am curious if anyone has done any testing of the spandex acoustically?
Wasn't this question just posed and answered yesterday? to which you received the reply:



Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan
Golly....just go this thread ............
Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth

and start on Post 138: Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth
and read the results of the Tests done using a dual layer of Milliskin Spandex, and note that the audio results were as good as and in some cases better than some very expensive Mfg AT Screens. Cost? Ridiculously less.
Did you not see and wonder in amazement at the Graph below?



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post #648 of 713 Old 08-11-2014, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Wasn't this question just posed and answered yesterday? to which you received the reply:





Did you not see and wonder in amazement at the Graph below?


Dang my bad MM, too much multi tasking Looks great though! I got totally distracted from the thread you recommended! Those images look amazing though. Also got stuck on multiple tabs open on reviews of the 55ES I am looking at Also home sick today so a little out of it...

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post #649 of 713 Old 08-11-2014, 05:09 PM
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Well.............awlrighty then.

Not that I and everyone else haven't been there, didn't do that ourselves.

Various colors of Milliskin can be used as AT Drapes and Accent coverings and get the job done better than all the more expensive materials otherwise used for the same purpose.

At least you know what "PJ" stands for.....right?


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post #650 of 713 Old 08-15-2014, 08:20 AM
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Ok so I watched clips of a movie in my theater again last night. On brighter scenes the middle supports are very visible to me as large white bars behind the screen. I am going to try to wrap them in my black material I'm using beside my screen to see how that looks before I take the screen down and remove the center supports so I can paint them black but I thought I would let everyone know that even with the shoe moulding around the edge of the screen it is very possible you will see the center supports. I checked and there is at least two inches between the spandex and the center supports so no they are not touching.

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post #651 of 713 Old 08-15-2014, 11:15 AM
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Ok so I watched clips of a movie in my theater again last night. On brighter scenes the middle supports are very visible to me as large white bars behind the screen. I am going to try to wrap them in my black material I'm using beside my screen to see how that looks before I take the screen down and remove the center supports so I can paint them black but I thought I would let everyone know that even with the shoe moulding around the edge of the screen it is very possible you will see the center supports. I checked and there is at least two inches between the spandex and the center supports so no they are not touching.
You went white over silver correct? Even doubled up spandex passes a LOT of light, so its not surprising that light colored objects behind the screen can be seen.
With any of these AT materials painting the frame, including center supports is always a first step.

If the area behind your screen is not very dark you will actually see the center supports as a shadow, as they block the light reflecting back through the screen from your wall. My area is painted flat black, and when I tried white over white I could see a faint shadow from the supports. With white over silver, and especially white over black (which I'm currently using) this was a non-issue.

So other than the glowing supports, how do you like the image quality?

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post #652 of 713 Old 08-15-2014, 07:01 PM
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I'm using white over white. The image is great! Absolutely no visible weave at 10' or 17'. I am going to try wrapping the center supports in my blackout panel cloth.
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post #653 of 713 Old 08-15-2014, 07:31 PM
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I'm using white over white. The image is great! Absolutely no visible weave at 10' or 17'. I am going to try wrapping the center supports in my blackout panel cloth.
Excellent! Just make sure everything behind the screen is inky black or your contrast will suffer due to scattered, reflected light.

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post #654 of 713 Old 08-15-2014, 07:36 PM
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Ah. I just checked out your thread. Looks like the wall behind the screen is painted burgundy.
White on white spandex with a burgundy backdrop...my crystal ball says you are going to be seeing red in no time.

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post #655 of 713 Old 08-16-2014, 06:05 AM
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No red surprisingly
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post #656 of 713 Old 08-16-2014, 08:58 AM
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Not so much. The degree of rear illumination would have to be incredibly bright to make the rear wall reflect the red light back through the spandex to the point that it would shift the colors.

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post #657 of 713 Old 08-18-2014, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
White on White 0.9
White on Silver 0.8
White on Black 0.7
Silver on White 0.8

Those are approximates....but adjudged to be very close...close enough to figure by.
I'm hoping to get my DIY AT spandex screen up in short order.. I've got my W1070 mounted at around 12.5' once I put the false wall in and looking to light up a 130-135" screen in a light-controlled room with SW Repose Gray walls and ceiling.. I hope to have enough lumens from that distance to handle an 0.7-0.8 gain from the spandex..
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post #658 of 713 Old 08-19-2014, 09:54 AM
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How much light would be getting through 2 layers of Spandex. I was planning on attaching the spandex to the frame sometime this weekend. Now I am worried about my build.
I have a lot of space behind my screen that is for storage with shelving, electrical panel etc, with plenty of reflective surfaces. Currently I have been using a cheap outdoor screen but it does not let any light pass as it has a dark rear cover. I am worried about reflections back to the screen. I have about 3-4 feet of space behind the screen between the frame and any of the surfaces. Should I could cover the back of the frame with some sort of blackout cloth, or black spandex to absorb any excess light instead of reflecting it.

I cannot change the location of my screen and keep the WAF going.
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post #659 of 713 Old 08-19-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by xpostal View Post
How much light would be getting through 2 layers of Spandex. I was planning on attaching the spandex to the frame sometime this weekend. Now I am worried about my build.
I have a lot of space behind my screen that is for storage with shelving, electrical panel etc, with plenty of reflective surfaces. Currently I have been using a cheap outdoor screen but it does not let any light pass as it has a dark rear cover. I am worried about reflections back to the screen. I have about 3-4 feet of space behind the screen between the frame and any of the surfaces. Should I could cover the back of the frame with some sort of blackout cloth, or black spandex to absorb any excess light instead of reflecting it.

I cannot change the location of my screen and keep the WAF going.
You should be fine as long as there are no light sources behind the screen such as power led(s)
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post #660 of 713 Old 08-19-2014, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpostal View Post
How much light would be getting through 2 layers of Spandex. I was planning on attaching the spandex to the frame sometime this weekend. Now I am worried about my build.
I have a lot of space behind my screen that is for storage with shelving, electrical panel etc, with plenty of reflective surfaces. Currently I have been using a cheap outdoor screen but it does not let any light pass as it has a dark rear cover. I am worried about reflections back to the screen. I have about 3-4 feet of space behind the screen between the frame and any of the surfaces. Should I could cover the back of the frame with some sort of blackout cloth, or black spandex to absorb any excess light instead of reflecting it.

I cannot change the location of my screen and keep the WAF going.
How much light passes through 2 layers of Spandex?
If both layers are white milliskin...the answer is a lot. If one is grey, then quite a bit.
Unless everything behind your screen is dark and non-reflective you will experience a significant drop in contrast. Imagine projecting a black and white grid. Every white square will shine through both layers of spandex like a beacon, illuminating anything in behind. Unless it is a black hole back there the light will reflect back towards the screen and light up the black squares, reducing your black level and contrast.
For reference, at Halloween I place a single layer of white spandex in my window and project onto it from inside the house. The image for the kids watching outside is darn near as bright as the reflected image inside. Two layers would be somewhat dimmer, but still watchable.

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