110" DIY Spandex AT Screen - Page 27 - AVS Forum
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post #781 of 803 Old 11-14-2014, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilla75 View Post
Thanks FToast.

Ordering "White matte milliskin" and "Silver matte milliskin. P/D".
These colors should be good right? or by any chance I would need "Black matte milliskin" too?
Thanks again.
Haven't heard of anyone using three layers and it might start to mess with the acoustic transparency.
Like Brian asked, knowing what projector you'll be using is pretty important because a brighter model can get away with using black while a dimmer or high-contrast model will probably look better with silver.
Even a bright model can benefit from silver instead of black for 3D or as usage hours dim the lamp with age..eco-mode, accurate settings and a large screen make a solid case for white and silver.

Has anyone been able to measure or roughly eyeball the gain/brightness difference between silver or black backing? That'd be handy to know.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #782 of 803 Old 11-14-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Has anyone been able to measure or roughly eyeball the gain/brightness difference between silver or black backing? That'd be handy to know.
Not "measured" per se, but it gives you an idea atleast

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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
White on White 0.9
White on Silver 0.8
White on Black 0.7
Silver on White 0.8

Those are approximates....but adjudged to be very close...close enough to figure by.
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post #783 of 803 Old 11-14-2014, 10:52 AM
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is 0.1 gain difference super noticeable?

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post #784 of 803 Old 11-14-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
is 0.1 gain difference super noticeable?
In most cases, I would be inclined to say no, but it depends on projector/screen size/room conditions.
if you are already on the low end of ft/l then you want every little bit you can possibly squeeze out of your situation.

Judging by your posts/pics and how happy you are with your screen, I would say in your case, it wouldnt make much difference
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post #785 of 803 Old 11-14-2014, 11:04 AM
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yeah I was just wondering...only issue is in REC709 mode its too dark for 3d I have to go to normal mode...thats THE only issue I have...its a good one to have...according to the calc. on projectorcentral I am still getting 15fl with a 0.7 screen from my distance of 14' to screen in a 130" 2.35 screen

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post #786 of 803 Old 11-14-2014, 11:18 AM
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That's a common issue.
I'm using a Benq 1080st and when displaying 3D, it defaults to Normal mode, it wont let me select anything else.
and even on my 110" 16x9 from 6 feet away, 3D is just bright enough.
according to Proj Central calculator im getting 26 fl so in 3D mode that's halved to 13fL

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post #787 of 803 Old 11-14-2014, 11:19 AM
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so that means Im getting 7fl in 3d mode?

that doesnt seem right...since it is in fact bright enough in normal mode..

and 26Fl!!! holy canole

Panasonic 65VT30 | Panasonic AE8000 HD PJ | Denon x4100 ATMOS 5.2.4| Emotiva XPA-5 | PSA MT110 x 3 FL/C/FR | PSB B4's | DUAL PSA XS30 | OPPO 103 | minidsp | Buttkicker LFE

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post #788 of 803 Old 11-14-2014, 11:44 AM
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The 3d thing, I remember reading somewhere on AVS (though it escapes me now) that brightness is halved in 3D mode, dont wanna threadjack though, so if I find it I'll PM you.

Anyway that's why all those other factors matter, at your screen size, my projector only comes out to 17fL compared to your 15fL and I can say confidently that your improved contrast and dark detail of the panasonic make a much larger difference in satisfaction than 2fL.

Edit: As an aside that calc was done with 1.0 gain and 130" 2.35 screen
@ your screen size AND 0.7 gain, I would get 12fL
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post #789 of 803 Old 11-14-2014, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
is 0.1 gain difference super noticeable?
Even side-by-side a 0.1gain difference can be a little hard to notice. If the comparison isn't side-by-side, the average person needs a 0.2-0.25gain difference to start seeing that anything has changed.

Like Douce said, if the small difference is enough to pull dim darks into that area where some details get too dark to see, then it'll make a difference. Then again those details were probably already just about too dark to see well anyway and the change would still be tiny.

The bigger help for dim 3D will be choosing the brightest available lamp setting you can stand the fan-noise of, make sure the brightness setting is high enough that darks aren't crushed to black, and then give gamma a boost to a higher preset if you need a little more.
A little nudge to brilliantcolor can help too if you don't mind the artifacts it can add for some projectors..or a medium accuracy medium brightness setting in the case of an LCD or LCoS.

It's good to hear that even the darker AT spandex screens are still around 0.7, that's not bad at all.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #790 of 803 Old 11-16-2014, 12:17 PM
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Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am planning on having just 2 layers.

I am planning on getting a BENQ W1070 or OPTOMO HD26.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Haven't heard of anyone using three layers and it might start to mess with the acoustic transparency.
Like Brian asked, knowing what projector you'll be using is pretty important because a brighter model can get away with using black while a dimmer or high-contrast model will probably look better with silver.
Even a bright model can benefit from silver instead of black for 3D or as usage hours dim the lamp with age..eco-mode, accurate settings and a large screen make a solid case for white and silver.

Has anyone been able to measure or roughly eyeball the gain/brightness difference between silver or black backing? That'd be handy to know.
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post #791 of 803 Old 11-17-2014, 01:45 AM
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This has probably been specified somewhere in the thread but how much of a gap should we use between the screen material and the backing?
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post #792 of 803 Old 11-17-2014, 05:42 AM
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I have zero...but I am using black second layer

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post #793 of 803 Old 11-17-2014, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post
This has probably been specified somewhere in the thread but how much of a gap should we use between the screen material and the backing?
They're typically right up against eachother, touching. This is probably part of why stapling is easier than tube for attaching them to the frame.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #794 of 803 Old 11-18-2014, 11:44 AM
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Hey All-

I'm new to the HT/projector world, and this forum has been a huge source of information! One thing I haven't been able to figure out, for my project is: Milliskin or moleskin spandex for AT screen?

I have benQ 1080st projector, and am making a 110" screen. Planning on doing white with grey backing. AT is more important to me than picture quality, as I am a sound mixer (picture quality is obviously still important, but I'm more concerned with AT).

Thanks for any input!
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post #795 of 803 Old 11-18-2014, 11:46 AM
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Milliskin

I did white (matte) over grey ('gunmetal' I think).

Sony VPL-HW40ES.

It just looks spectacular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Schwarzweller View Post
Hey All-

I'm new to the HT/projector world, and this forum has been a huge source of information! One thing I haven't been able to figure out, for my project is: Milliskin or moleskin spandex for AT screen?

I have benQ 1080st projector, and am making a 110" screen. Planning on doing white with grey backing. AT is more important to me than picture quality, as I am a sound mixer (picture quality is obviously still important, but I'm more concerned with AT).

Thanks for any input!

Last edited by hoog23; 11-18-2014 at 11:52 AM.
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post #796 of 803 Old 11-18-2014, 11:53 AM
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That's what I was leaning towards, thanks for input. ..just found the "AT spandex truth" thread which has a lot of great information.
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post #797 of 803 Old Yesterday, 02:17 PM
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I live in an apartment and I'm researching the addition of a PJ setup directly in front of my current plasma. For now I want to be able to use the plasma also, I don't want to deal with a frame that I need to R&R every time I switch. The price point for a retractable, tension-based, AT screen I can simply hang from the ceiling is a bit more than I want to fork over. Based upon some other threads I've read & started, people are recommending I use the spandex solution.

What I was considering was a solution like the photo below using clamps & bungee cords, except buy the correct combination of Milliskin.I've never sewn a thing in my life, so adding grommets to the Milliskin is out of my league.



The AT screen will be centered in front my current front speakers, blocking the complete width between the outer edges of the main speakers as well as the center speaker.



The tentative parts list is below:
BenQ W1070 Projector (BHPhotoVideo)
Right angle HDMI connector (Monoprice 4859)
Right angle 15' power cable 14AWG (MonoPrice 7686)
HDMI cable, 22AWG silver 50' (Monoprice 2678)
Milliskin Black Matte (SpandexWorld 796), 3 yards on a roll
Milliskin White Matte (SpandexWorld 795), 3 yards on a roll
HDMI splitter (Monoprice 7522)
Cable Mgmt Kit (Monoprice 8288)
Home Depot Easy Clip Tarp Anchor (5-pk, PN 89521-5) x2
Bungee cords
Anchor eye bolts

The room dimensions are 13'Wx8'Hx15'D. The throw distance would be approximately 10-11', and I can line up the projector on the ceiling or at the top of the back wall directly centered with the screen. The viewing distance with the plasma is 76", with the projector the max would probably be around 115". I don't know at this point what the best image size will be based upon the other restrictions. The front wall is a flat brick/barn red, and the other walls in this room are painted a flat tan/beige.

To the right of the screen there is a glass patio door, but I have vertical blinds & curtains to block that off... with all the other doors closed the only outdoor ambient light coming in is a crack at the bottom of the patio door curtains, and a glow around the other three edges.

I think my remaining questions lie in validating what combination of spandex to use. If I use a single white sheet, the light could reflect off the plasma screen, so I know I need to use something dark between the plasma & white spandex. But I also don't want to leave anything on the table per see with regard to optimal performance within the restrictions I already have. Would there be a benefit to using 2 white sheets in front of the black, or will it not be needed with the W1070 PJ? Are there any infrared remote control problems going through the spandex?

Using the 0.7 gain listed for the white over black spandex, and the 2000lumens on the PJ, my calculator says the screen brightness would be near 50fL, and I've read that if it's too bright it can introduce the rainbow effect on DLP's. I don't yet know if I will experience the rainbow effect and if I do I may return it for perhaps an Epson 3500... I know that's not a short throw projector and the image will be smaller though. Would the spandex selection change if I switched to the 3500?

Am I on the right track? Any other ideas which might make this even simpler?


Last edited by jimmueller; Yesterday at 02:31 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #798 of 803 Old Yesterday, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
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Am I on the right track? Any other ideas which might make this even simpler?
While the PJC calculator is a great tool for size and distance, it's brightness/ftL can be lacking since it only uses manufacturers' claimed specs.
The w1070 can get close to its 2000claims with almost 1800, but it can also be darkened down to 800lm in eco-mode at cinema setting..so it has plenty of brightness range to work with if needed.

Using white on white on black would essentially look like just white on white..the third layer shouldn't be required to keep reflections down, two of any neutral (white/grey/black) color should work. You could even take that 50ftL down to ~15ft by pairing the dimmest mode with a screen that's grey on black.

The 3500/3000 (I'd strongly recommend the 3000 over the 3500 if at all possible) is also a very bright model, so it should pair equally well with whatever spandex combination you settle on.

I've heard remotes make it through, but I'd assume that's not always the case and you'll probably want to keep fresher batteries inside compared to normal. It might help to do some testing with a couple layers of fabric you've already got handy..ask a friend to hold it roughly where the screen will be between you and the device. Does your remote already have a strong presence or is it pretty finicky?

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.

Last edited by Ftoast; Yesterday at 03:44 PM.
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post #799 of 803 Old Yesterday, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Using white on white on black would essentially look like just white on white..the third layer shouldn't be required to keep reflections down, two of any neutral (white/grey/black) color should work. You could even take that 50ftL down to ~15ft by pairing the dimmest mode with a screen that's grey on black.

The 3500/3000 (I'd strongly recommend the 3000 over the 3500 if at all possible) is also a very bright model, so it should pair equally well with whatever spandex combination you settle on.

Does your remote already have a strong presence or is it pretty finicky?
So which spandex(es) are recommended for the best video performance with this configuration? Can you elaborate on why you prefer the 3000 over the 3500? Remotes aren't finicky... come to think of it, the only remote sensors which would be behind the screen would be for the plasma, the Wii (which I think is IR) or the XBox360 (which is below the plasma on the right).

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post #800 of 803 Old Yesterday, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmueller View Post
So which spandex(es) are recommended for the best video performance with this configuration? Can you elaborate on why you prefer the 3000 over the 3500? Remotes aren't finicky... come to think of it, the only remote sensors which would be behind the screen would be for the plasma, the Wii (which I think is IR) or the XBox360 (which is below the plasma on the right).
The milliskin spandex is often recommended, but I'm not sure if it's more for smooth painting or if it looks better unpainted too.

The 3000/3500 are basically the same except for build-in speakers that will likely never be used and an additional sharpness cranking control..which technically takes away from a quality picture when used..but it can make the image look falsely more crisp.
So you get an otherwise identical projector for about $500 less. The brightness and contrast difference listed is both too small to be seen and likely false to begin with since those specs are notoriously false/exaggerated.

Good news about the remote stuff then.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #801 of 803 Old Yesterday, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
The milliskin spandex is often recommended, but I'm not sure if it's more for smooth painting or if it looks better unpainted too.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm looking for further direction on the spandex color combination. I've seen recommendations of white over black, white over matte gray, white over light silver, etc. I've read that white over black gives the best contrast ratio, but then why would others recommend gray or silver, instead? What benefits does the gray/silver have over black?

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post #802 of 803 Old Yesterday, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmueller View Post
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm looking for further direction on the spandex color combination. I've seen recommendations of white over black, white over matte gray, white over light silver, etc. I've read that white over black gives the best contrast ratio, but then why would others recommend gray or silver, instead? What benefits does the gray/silver have over black?
Grey or silver behind white will be higher gain than black, which you don't need at your screen size and projector choices.

These clips might work better than the tarp anchors you mentioned, because they don't put holes in the material that might tear spandex. You're probably right to avoid grommets.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_115406-1168-...1213299&rpp=32
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