110" DIY Spandex AT Screen - Page 40 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1171 of 1202 Old 09-01-2016, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Yeah but....the PF1000U only starts out with 1000 lumen "non-calibrated" so all this talk about such low gain must be put into context with the PJs being used.
Isn't that what I did? The PF1000U has low output and I use a pretty big screen. I would need to shrink the picture to half the width to get anywhere near 14fL (yes, I did measure that). Doesn't sound like 0.8 gain to me...

Don't get me wrong, Spandex is fantastic for building a great performing screen with little money BUT one needs a projector that has a lot of light output (or a small picture) to get to 14fL.

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post #1172 of 1202 Old 09-01-2016, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Isn't that what I did? The PF1000U has low output and I use a pretty big screen. I would need to shrink the picture to half the width to get anywhere near 14fL (yes, I did measure that). Doesn't sound like 0.8 gain to me...

Don't get me wrong, Spandex is fantastic for building a great performing screen with little money BUT one needs a projector that has a lot of light output (or a small picture) to get to 14fL.

Well no, that's not what you did.


First off, the PF1000u should measure out at 16 fl on a .7 gain 120" screen. Even with another .2 of gain reduction it should bottom out at 11-12 fl.

Secondly, you don't state how you came up with your 6 fl figure. If you measured it, how so?

Thirdly,
consciously reducing lumen output on a sub-1.0 gain surface seems to be a personal choice, but not one in keeping with achieving optimal performance. One must wonder what your measured results would be otherwise.

My point being that making conclusive statements based on obviously personalized settings doesn't represent what a majority of individuals would / will encounter. Add in the use of a lower lumen PJ (...albeit a Short Throw variety) and the posted results (...and opinion...) can only be construed as being wholly individualized.

One need only accept that when using Spandex, one cannot seed a proverbial Boy to do a Man's job. Now while it is true the Boy can do acceptably well in controlled lighting, he's going to have to become a Man to measure up to any real challenge.

I am both willing and should give you the benefit of the doubt as far as how you measured your results, based on the above facts (Low Lumen - Calibrated "Medium" Mode) but again, yours is a particular case in point of one using a PJ that is not exactly ideally suited for the job at hand.

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post #1173 of 1202 Old 09-01-2016, 06:57 PM
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Going to sperg out a little on measurements here: While I respect the measurements at HTshack, I found through my own experience that they are a little erroneous regarding color shift. It really depends on the spectrum of light source you are using since 795 spandex has 450nm fluorescing optical brighteners that kick in the UV below 400nm and continue fluorescing until 415nm or so. The I1 Pro used for those HTshack measurements has a UV LED augmenting the tungsten lamp. This UV fluoresces the brighteners a little more than most projector light sources normally would therefore it gives a more dramatic color shift reading than in actual practice (notice how the silver materials do not have 450nm humps?).

My 400nm blocked measurements on 795 gave a color difference (C*) of 4 while the post at HTshack has it around 9.65. I measure it about 64% reflective. Having black backing made no difference since my setup has a light trap built in behind the material. I could have measured white on white but I would argue adding more reflective haze is not adding true image gain.
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post #1174 of 1202 Old 09-01-2016, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
First off, the PF1000u should measure out at 16 fl on a .7 gain 120" screen. Even with another .2 of gain reduction it should bottom out at 11-12 fl.
It should but it doesn't. Look up the numbers for the PF1000U. The lumen output in the specs isn't the same when measured calibrated. I doubt lumen ratings given out by any consumer projector manufacturer are 100% of what you get after calibration. It's a ballpark figure nothing one can rely on for exactly calculating screen specs.

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Secondly, you don't state how you came up with your 6 fl figure. If you measured it, how so?
ChromaPure 3.0.8 using a Spyder5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Thirdly,
consciously reducing lumen output on a sub-1.0 gain surface seems to be a personal choice, but not one in keeping with achieving optimal performance. One must wonder what your measured results would be otherwise..
I've stated what the results would be when power savings are off: 7fL.
The fans are too loud on "minimal". Not sure it is just a personal choice not wanting to listen to fan noise but to the sound track of a movie


All in all maybe a Spandex screen isn't 0.8 – how did you come up with that number?
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post #1175 of 1202 Old 09-02-2016, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
All in all maybe a Spandex screen isn't 0.8 – how did you come up with that number?
When you made your screen, how much stretch did you put the spandex under ? Just enough to wrap the 60" width onto the back side for stapling, or more than that ?

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post #1176 of 1202 Old 09-02-2016, 12:48 AM
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When you made your screen, how much stretch did you put the spandex under ? Just enough to wrap the 60" width onto the back side for stapling, or more than that ?
About 10%. I think I've posted details in this thread.

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post #1177 of 1202 Old 09-02-2016, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by PTAaron View Post
This is interesting... I am finally at the stage where I need to think about ordering the stuff to build a screen - and I'm hoping to get it right on the first try.

At the moment I'm planning on getting a BenQ HT2050 as my projector, and I'm planning on a 102 - 108" wide screen so we're looking at 117-124" diagonal screen in a completely light controlled room. Planning on having the projector about 10-11 feet back from the screen
I had been planning on white over black - but if it is truly a .5 gain I'm not sure if that will work? The calculator on ProjectorCentral only lets me plug in down to a .7 gain - which if I'm reading this right puts me right in the middle of the "proper" range. I don't want to end up with an image that is too dark.
Admittedly I don't know enough about screen gain and fL - so maybe (probably) I'm over thinking it...

EDIT: I also watch a fair amount of 3D if that matters. Which combo would you guys recommend? Older threads seem to indicate white over silver might be a better choice?
In a darkened room, I'd say even the ht2050's dimmest settings should be bright enough for most to find really nice at that size on white-over-black spandex during 2D.
But for 3D you'll probably prefer leaving the projector running at a brighter preset.

In the meantime, as a big 3D fan you might want to grab some inexpensive samples of Carls white AT material and some of the other affordable weaved options like Seymour CS/SD/XD to check out and see if the weave is something that's visible for you at your distance or if there's even enough brightness difference for you to care.

With your frame and inexpensive spandex screen, if you find a material among the samples that you greatly prefer, you can use the same frame and attachment method to swap your spandex for the new material. ..and if you don't find something you prefer even more, you'll already have the spandex screen and have wasted only a couple dollars on samples toward some piece of mind.
The brightness difference between white-over-black and white-over-silver/grey isn't likely enough to worry over..and white-over-black has been mentioned as being a little more crisp and clear.

I think you'll be alright with spandex, but grabbing some samples to checkout against it won't hurt and might eventually lead you to something you like even more for your 3D adventures.
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post #1178 of 1202 Old 09-02-2016, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
About 10%. I think I've posted details in this thread.
So you didn't lose gain by overstretching. That 6FL number is pretty scary low. For a screen with only 42sf of area and 0.5 gain, that would mean you are figuring less than 600 lumens from the projector. That is not much less than out of the box cinema mode according to the PR review, making the 0.5 figure not unreasonable. Have you double-checked the measurement by placing white paper or a sample of other materials known to be close to 1.0 to verify the accuracy of your equipment ?

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post #1179 of 1202 Old 09-02-2016, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
In a darkened room, I'd say even the ht2050's dimmest settings should be bright enough for most to find really nice at that size on white-over-black spandex during 2D.
But for 3D you'll probably prefer leaving the projector running at a brighter preset.

In the meantime, as a big 3D fan you might want to grab some inexpensive samples of Carls white AT material and some of the other affordable weaved options like Seymour CS/SD/XD to check out and see if the weave is something that's visible for you at your distance or if there's even enough brightness difference for you to care.

With your frame and inexpensive spandex screen, if you find a material among the samples that you greatly prefer, you can use the same frame and attachment method to swap your spandex for the new material. ..and if you don't find something you prefer even more, you'll already have the spandex screen and have wasted only a couple dollars on samples toward some piece of mind.
The brightness difference between white-over-black and white-over-silver/grey isn't likely enough to worry over..and white-over-black has been mentioned as being a little more crisp and clear.

I think you'll be alright with spandex, but grabbing some samples to checkout against it won't hurt and might eventually lead you to something you like even more for your 3D adventures.
Thank you for the reply!
Great idea on the samples.
I'd say that my usage in the room is 50% PS4 games, 50% movies. Majority of the time we aren't watching 3D, but we do have a decent collection of the IMAX 3D movies and a fair amount of other 3D titles that we like to throw in from time to time.
I had hoped that running in a brighter mode would be an adequate solution, seems to work well with my DLP TV - but this will be my first projector so I don't know much about these things

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post #1180 of 1202 Old 09-03-2016, 12:58 AM
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For a screen with only 42sf of area and 0.5 gain, that would mean you are figuring less than 600 lumens from the projector.
That sounds about right. LG advertises 1000 lumen but we all know that these numbers are just marketing nonsense. After calibration and settings to bring the fan noise down the number will be way less.

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post #1181 of 1202 Old 09-08-2016, 06:57 PM
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Thought I would copy this over here from my built thread as this is the root of my inspiration for going the DIY spandex way and where builds seam to congregate

DIY 124" Spandex Screen
Total Cost ~$270CAD

Frame made out of 1x4 Choice Fir placed on edge with a stiffening piece wrapping the outside edge. Joinery using a Kreg jig, brads and glue. All edges where screen meets wood was sanded to avoid snags
Screen material is white over black spandex held on with screen tight and spline

I decided on Fir as it was the most reasonably price "hardwood" that was deadly straight in the store (Timbermart). Spruce, polar and pine are infamously bad for being warped in some shape or form up here. Oak was double the price.

Frame on edge..... because my screen is floating off the wall I did not want it to be to thick by going with the wood on the flat. However, I also did not want it to be to easily warped or bent...... thus the outer stiffener

Spandex is a great alternative to the manufactured systems and has an excellent picture. I was able to see a grey over black screen in action with the same Epson 5030 projector that I have. Thanks @Fattykidd
I chose White over Black to try and get the white levels a little better than the grey but trying to maintain the blacks.... I think this has been achieved nicely.

Joinery


Outer Stiffener
The addition of this to the outer edge increased the rigidity of the frame. To make this piece I ripped the board to 1 1/2" wide. dadoed out the groove on my table saw and cut back the one side a ~10 degrees to minimize the wood in contact with the spandex. Attached around the outer edge with glue and brads.
The location of the dado is also strategic in that it alows for the screen tigh to be fully hidden from the side. This worked like a dream


Assembled frame


Painted black.... not sure if this was needed but hey I had some..... I can not see the frame at all through spandex
Mounting was done with three "L" shaped brackets screwed to the wall framing..... placed so the screen frame fits snugly in place with a minor smack of the fist. I might adjust this at a later date as it is maybe a little to tight with the fabric on now.... TBD
The vertical piece is 1/8" thick to it does not come in contact with the screen.... lots of pre figuring with the stiffener


Side shot.... yes there is screen tight hiding back there


The black going on



The White.... getting the corners on this layer was much more difficult..... probably cause I was not as concerned with the uniformity of the black layer as the white. getting the stretch right in the corners took a few tries but we got it. I also think the further distance to the second track and as a result more fabric to deal with was a major factor in the difficulty



Finished product, one day I will be installing LED lighting behind screen to cast onto the rock



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post #1182 of 1202 Old 09-08-2016, 07:24 PM
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Thanks Waterboy77!!!!
This will be my inspiration to build my 124". If you don't mind I might send you a few PMs soon for questions I might have when building within the next few weeks.


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post #1183 of 1202 Old 09-08-2016, 07:41 PM
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Thanks Waterboy77!!!!
This will be my inspiration to build my 124". If you don't mind I might send you a few PMs soon for questions I might have when building within the next few weeks.


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Sure no problem..... glad it's inspirational

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post #1184 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 06:53 AM
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Great work Waterboy!! That screen looks amazing floating in front of that rock.

This is also perfect timing because I will be making my screen next week and I planned to build it almost identical to yours. I want it to stick out from wall minimal distance, use kreg and screen tight, white over black. I have a question regarding the stiffener...

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Frame on edge..... because my screen is floating off the wall I did not want it to be to thick by going with the wood on the flat. However, I also did not want it to be to easily warped or bent...... thus the outer stiffener

Outer Stiffener
The addition of this to the outer edge increased the rigidity of the frame. To make this piece I ripped the board to 1 1/2" wide. dadoed out the groove on my table saw and cut back the one side a ~10 degrees to minimize the wood in contact with the spandex. Attached around the outer edge with glue and brads.
The location of the dado is also strategic in that it allows for the screen tight to be fully hidden from the side. This worked like a dream

Do you have any other pictures to show how it was attached? i.e. which side the angle went to? I hadn't thought of dado'ing the screen tight groove, but I am worried about the frame warping/sagging over time so I am thinking I should add a stiffener as well.

Also, did you use any metal brackets on the backside along with the kreg? Do you think the kreg will hold up over time or would metal L and T brackets be worth it also?

Thanks!
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post #1185 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 07:21 AM
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Great work Waterboy!! That screen looks amazing floating in front of that rock.

This is also perfect timing because I will be making my screen next week and I planned to build it almost identical to yours. I want it to stick out from wall minimal distance, use kreg and screen tight, white over black. I have a question regarding the stiffener...

Do you have any other pictures to show how it was attached? i.e. which side the angle went to? I hadn't thought of dado'ing the screen tight groove, but I am worried about the frame warping/sagging over time so I am thinking I should add a stiffener as well.

Also, did you use any metal brackets on the backside along with the kreg? Do you think the kreg will hold up over time or would metal L and T brackets be worth it also?

Thanks!
Thanks freestylr!
Sorry I don't really have any other pictures of how the stiffener attached.... I will try to describe in more detail.....
The dado is milled to the exact thickness of the main 1x4's and approximately 1/4" deep. It was tight to put over the wood with the glue but with a hammer and blocking I was able to get is seated tightly against the frame, the brad nails were really just to keep things together till the glue dried.
The angle is to the front of the frame to minimize contact to the front..... kind of like doing 1/4 round but easier (if you have the tools) as its all part of one piece
I thought about recessing the screen tight in the back of the frame but I think too much strength would be lost.

I am all for over engineering something but I did not use any metal brackets..... once I got it together I didn't feel that it needed anything more that that. The Kreg system holds really well.... I did do some pre assembly tests with the Kreg on scraps as the fir is a little unique in that it is in-between a hard and soft wood so I wanted to test which screws (coarse or fine) to use... I settled on coarse

Did up a sketch as it will probably show better that I described..... NOT TO SCALE
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post #1186 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 08:18 AM
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Thanks freestylr!
Sorry I don't really have any other pictures of how the stiffener attached.... I will try to describe in more detail.....
That helped tremendously!! Thank you!! I can't wait to start building mine now and I will probably copy a lot of your design
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post #1187 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 08:28 AM
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That helped tremendously!! Thank you!! I can't wait to start building mine now and I will probably copy a lot of your design
Glad it helped
Post up some pictures when you get it done
Hope you enjoy it!!!
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post #1188 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 10:54 AM
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I'll pipe in to say that this example is an excellent one!

Would that more people have the option to select Fir. Sadly it's only a Northwest US and Canadian option.

Something to do with there being a abundance of Fir Trees or sumpthin'
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post #1189 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 11:18 AM
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I'll pipe in to say that this example is an excellent one!

Would that more people have the option to select Fir. Sadly it's only a Northwest US and Canadian option.

Something to do with there being a abundance of Fir Trees or sumpthin'
Hey thanks MississipiMan, that means a lot from a pro like you!

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post #1190 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 12:01 PM
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Thanks for posting this! I'm going to be copying your design
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post #1191 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 12:07 PM
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Thanks for posting this! I'm going to be copying your design
No problem glad people like it.
Let me know if there are any questions
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post #1192 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 02:04 PM
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I'll pipe in to say that this example is an excellent one!

Would that more people have the option to select Fir. Sadly it's only a Northwest US and Canadian option.

Something to do with there being a abundance of Fir Trees or sumpthin'
Why would you recommend fir? It's a rather soft wood with a lot of resin. Both probably not so good properties for building a screen frame. It's readily available in Europe by the way.

Markus

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post #1193 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Why would you recommend fir? It's a rather soft wood with a lot of resin. Both probably not so good properties for building a screen frame. It's readily available in Europe by the way.
It is not really that soft, and the Resin, once Kiln Dried, makes it both harder and resistant to warp-age. Fir is the primary wood used for Marine Grade Plywood. In a layered state such as multi-ply plywood, it becomes pliable when wet, and when shaped and then dried, retains it shape.

No one sells Fir that has not been KiIn Dried, and as stated, once dried, it's very hard.

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post #1194 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 02:43 PM
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Well, plywood is a different animal. Not familiar with the term "KiIn Dried". Here in Europe fir is only used as cheap construction wood.
In any case wood isn't dimensionally stable. Best would be to build a frame from metal. My wood frame did move quite a bit although it is constructed from wood that has been dried for multiple years at my carpenter's shop. I even sealed it with paint to prevent movement. Didn't help.

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post #1195 of 1202 Old 09-09-2016, 05:42 PM
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Markus,

All I can say is your experience is not indicative of what the majority encounters, and as such cannot and should not be held as being definitive.

I've encountered many different grades of Fir in the EU. In the Nordic states, it comes in at least 3 grades. In Germany, just 1. I've seen imported Laminated Fir lumber in the Caribbean that was stronger than almost anything else I've encountered.

You seem to have no small amount of experience, but if it's limited to a specific geographical area, that can make quite a difference.

This Forum attracts Members and Contributors from all over the World, but that also means than some will post about materials and methods that a great many cannot duplicate. All we can do is to offer up possibilities and alternatives, and hope one or the other will suit the needs of those looking for a solution.

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post #1196 of 1202 Old 09-10-2016, 05:07 AM
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All I can say is your experience is not indicative of what the majority encounters, and as such cannot and should not be held as being definitive.
I don't know what the majority encounters but I do know that fir is on the soft side when compared to other types of wood. Whether a specific type of wood is dimensionally stable or not depends on more factors. Building the frame from metal eliminates the problem. On the down side it's harder to do and/or more expensive.

Additionally I've offered just my personal experience with my wood frame. I'm still using it by the way.

Markus

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post #1197 of 1202 Old 09-11-2016, 06:13 AM
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From the get-go, Spandex applications were always recognized as being best suited to higher lumen PJs.
I just want to ask your opinion as I’m a JVC X500 owner and considering a Spandex screen (instead of a commercial Seymour XD screen). I am looking at 10’ width 2.40:1 and I’m wondering if I’m going to have enough lumens to light it up if I go for white on black?

Before I stripped my room down to rebuild I did some tests and found that I can hit 130 Lux at the screen in low lamp, aperture fully open. If I switch to high lamp I can get to 160 Lux. This is calibrated, so I only have further lamp dimming to take into account (pretty stable at around 400 hours as was my previous X35 which used the same lamp type).

What sort of gain do you think I would be looking at? If I take 0.8 then that works out at around 9.7fL in low lamp or a fraction under 12fL for high lamp. That is just about acceptable; any less then I’d have to rethink, especially allowing for some further lamp dimming.

Eventually I plan to get a brighter projector, but I will have to stick with the X500 for the time being due to other expenses (and partly the reason why I’m considering a DIY screen in the first place).

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post #1198 of 1202 Old 09-11-2016, 06:41 AM
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Considering how White over Black helps maintain Contrast, the use of Normal Lamp mode will not be detrimental to the Contrast / Black Level performance of the X500.

I would not however speculate as to what might happen on Low Lamp, but then again, that's something to "try" knowing you can always have more than acceptable dark room performance on Normal. Barring any decision to mitigate Lumen limitations by reducing screen size, you really have limited options beyond the use of Normal lamp mode.

All that will remain is for you to get even better performance once you upgrade to something like the newer 1800 / 1900 lumen JVCs or the Epson 5040/6040s w/2500 lumen.
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post #1199 of 1202 Old 09-11-2016, 07:06 AM
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Thanks MM, I guess it's more a suck it and see sort of thing really. I used to run at 100 Lux with my previous screen (1.5 gain Beamax, which was probably closer to 1.2 in reality, so that would have been around 11fL using 1.2 as the gain). I want AT so I have sold the Beamax.

I think I'll have a go at a DIY screen since it's not going to cost much. If I find it just isn't bright enough I could always replace it with an XD. However, I'm going to see a 'Filmex' screen soon, hopefully this week, so I'll be able to see for myself and compare it to a sample of XD I have already.

The X5000 is already on my radar (Epson not so much as I just love the JVC black levels). Maybe a used one will fall into my price range next year. On the plus side my tinnitus means that I'm not bothered by the extra fan noise of high lamp if I have to run the X500 this way.

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post #1200 of 1202 Old 09-14-2016, 08:01 AM
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The x500 isn't going to disappoint. I suggested the Epson not so much for it's lower cost as it's brightness is well suited for use with a Spandex application.
I just recently put one up, and it absolutely killed at 170" on a extremely dark gray painted surface. The ONLY thing it does not have going for it is a absolutely pristine, "pixel-grid free" image at a distance of 24" or under from the screen. But 4'? It's just not there. The JVC on the other hand has no such limitation.

And that is very important if your going to be sitting 2' from the screen.

BTW...PM me because I might have access to a x500 new at a used price.

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