110" DIY Spandex AT Screen - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 617 Old 01-03-2013, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by muzz View Post

....are the Seymours and others whiter than this fabric?

Seymour fabrics are brighter. The CenterStage XD is 1.2 gain.
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post #182 of 617 Old 01-04-2013, 08:18 AM
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I'd like to add that's the reason why does manufactured screens are brighter is because they have a more surface area which is not open to allow Sound to pass on thru.

It is a case where saving a lot of cash, getting "better" acoustic performance, at the expense of a small amount of gain have to be accepted in as much as the loss of the gain is the lesser of all the combined evils inherent in the manufactured AT screens.

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post #183 of 617 Old 01-04-2013, 12:18 PM
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Is it verified that the Spandex threads/dyes are as "white" as they're going to get? Or is it possible even the white is "80%" white, and thus one could conceive of a "whiter" Spandex cloth screen?

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post #184 of 617 Old 01-04-2013, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

I'd like to add that's the reason why does manufactured screens are brighter is because they have a more surface area which is not open to allow Sound to pass on thru.
It is a case where saving a lot of cash, getting "better" acoustic performance, at the expense of a small amount of gain have to be accepted in as much as the loss of the gain is the lesser of all the combined evils inherent in the manufactured AT screens.

The pictures Smokarz posted look like a serious amount of light loss, it looks like going from a white screen to a grey screen

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post #185 of 617 Old 01-04-2013, 06:43 PM
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anyone using spandex made AT screen in their living room rather than dedicated bat cave/HT room?
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post #186 of 617 Old 01-04-2013, 11:39 PM
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Muzz, I say don't sweat it until you see the spandex samples for yourself. I have a Mits HC4000 and went from a Dalite Model C (gain around 1.0??) to experimenting with both the grey and white moleskin on top. I decided to stick with the grey on top. The benefit of speakers behind the screen and the added contrast nd richer colors are definitely worth it for me. I'm not trying to minimize the difference in brightness, but I still chose the grey. You gotta choose your poison...and I don't miss the Dalite.
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post #187 of 617 Old 01-05-2013, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MovieMike View Post

Muzz, I say don't sweat it until you see the spandex samples for yourself. I have a Mits HC4000 and went from a Dalite Model C (gain around 1.0??) to experimenting with both the grey and white moleskin on top. I decided to stick with the grey on top. The benefit of speakers behind the screen and the added contrast nd richer colors are definitely worth it for me. I'm not trying to minimize the difference in brightness, but I still chose the grey. You gotta choose your poison...and I don't miss the Dalite.

Like I said before, I've already done the white>grey>mixes>HP, so I know what I am seeing with Smokarz SS, I don't even have to see the samples, I know what to expect, and TBO none of it is going to be good.
I don't use my PJ for just movies, I use it for everything, so brightness and punch is every bit as important as blacks, which is all I used to care about.

If I wanna ditch the speakers out front, guess I don't have much of a choice at this time.... maybe later I can get something better, but I'm surely not looking forward to a dim screen with grey whites.

Edit: 1 thing I WILL like about the new screen is the system, that Screen tight system is the ballz, I can change out colors/samples without issue, so can keep trying until I find something reasonable.

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post #188 of 617 Old 01-05-2013, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Is it verified that the Spandex threads/dyes are as "white" as they're going to get? Or is it possible even the white is "80%" white, and thus one could conceive of a "whiter" Spandex cloth screen?

I certainly have hopes of this, or even another color/metallic that will be brighter..

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post #189 of 617 Old 01-05-2013, 01:17 PM
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Like I said before, I've already done the white>grey>mixes>HP, so I know what I am seeing with Smokarz SS, I don't even have to see the samples, I know what to expect, and TBO none of it is going to be good

I'm not sure what kind of calibration you do with your setup, but I have normally just used the presets posted by other users for my projector. Most of the time it has looked really good. However, after I made my spandex screen (grey over white) I decided to use my DVE disc and try it for myself. It is a fair amount darker of an image after doing the calibration, so I'm not sure if it's the properly calibrated image you're not liking or the screen itself. Personally, I have found it to be a tad too dark and have gone with a brighter setting. I know it's "wrong" according to the DVE disc and probably other calibration tools, but this is one of those situations where I choose to go with what my eyes like as opposed to what I should be seeing. For brighter movies, I go with the reference settings I've calibrated.

Don't get me wrong, the screen is definitely darker. But it is possible to get a bright image but you just need to increase the output of your projector (non- eco mode). The benefit of an AT screen trumps the minor negatives by far, IMHO. The other thing to factor in is that perhaps a lot of light loss is because of light going through the screen. For myself, I don't think I tensioned my screen anywhere near as tight as others have (probably 25% stretch) due to the design limitations of my screen, and I find it to be really nice. Perhaps a lesser tensioned white on white or white on grey would be brighter? I'm not sure the effect on AT properties would be, but my HT sounds pretty awesome to me.

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post #190 of 617 Old 01-05-2013, 03:18 PM
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The Milliskin, not stretched too tightly, looks brighter in both White and Silver because of the tighter weave. But it needs backing.....no question. Moleskin can sometimes do without backing, especially if the PJ has a wealth of lumen output.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #191 of 617 Old 01-05-2013, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereWolf84 View Post

anyone using spandex made AT screen in their living room rather than dedicated bat cave/HT room?

Not in the living room, but I have a 120" grey over white one in my game room. Using in with a Sony HW50 with about 50 hours on the lamp currently and it is plenty bright in (uncalibrated) reference / low lamp mode with the projector just over 16 feet away from the screen.

The room gets no 'direct' sun light anymore, but the back 7.5 feet of the left wall are open to the two story living room area with west facing windows (lots of afternoon light/spill in from lights on in the house at all). The wall with the screen is the only wall with a window in the room and that wall is mostly covered with black curtains. We haven't repainted that room yet, so it still has the original egg shell white walls and not the dark cream color we are repainting the interior with.

I am perfectly happy with it as a starter screen. I will eventually get some samples of other materials to compare against but that is a low priority for now.
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post #192 of 617 Old 01-09-2013, 12:08 PM
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Hello guys, I am new to AVS forums and have been following this thread from past few weeks. It really prompted me to build my own screen. Thanks to Smokarz for starting this thread and MM for all his suggestions and many others who contributed to this thread.

I have Epson 8350, ML motion4, motion6 and Dynamo 500 subwoofer for my HT. The room size is 18.5'x14.5'. 14.5' is the viewing distance. I am planning to build a 110 or 116" screen and already ordered Spandex from spandexworld and should be receiving the material today. After looking at Smokarz's screenshots, I decided to go with white over silver as my personal preference is also a brighter image.

I really like the idea of using screen tight and spline to hold the fabric together. However, I would like to build an outer frame (may be with 1x2s) and wrap velvet around to form the edge to the viewing area but I am concerned as how to attach the outer frame to the screen frame. Have anyone done this, with screen tight and spline, or have any suggestions on what is the best way to accomplish it?

Thank you for your suggestions in advance.

-Invasion
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post #193 of 617 Old 01-09-2013, 12:21 PM
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My spandex screen is border less against a wall covered in black curtains, but I would build a frame covered in black velvet with the inside dimensions the same as the outside dimensions of your finished screen; the screen would be inset to the border frame and held by either friction or you could have a thin backing strip for the screen to stop against. Velcro would work, as well.
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post #194 of 617 Old 01-10-2013, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invasion View Post

Hello guys, I am new to AVS forums and have been following this thread from past few weeks. It really prompted me to build my own screen. Thanks to Smokarz for starting this thread and MM for all his suggestions and many others who contributed to this thread.

I have Epson 8350, ML motion4, motion6 and Dynamo 500 subwoofer for my HT. The room size is 18.5'x14.5'. 14.5' is the viewing distance. I am planning to build a 110 or 116" screen and already ordered Spandex from spandexworld and should be receiving the material today. After looking at Smokarz's screenshots, I decided to go with white over silver as my personal preference is also a brighter image.

I really like the idea of using screen tight and spline to hold the fabric together. However, I would like to build an outer frame (may be with 1x2s) and wrap velvet around to form the edge to the viewing area but I am concerned as how to attach the outer frame to the screen frame. Have anyone done this, with screen tight and spline, or have any suggestions on what is the best way to accomplish it?

Thank you for your suggestions in advance.

-Invasion

I just did exactly what you are looking for as far as a border goes. I will post some pics within a few days, but here is what I did. I used the screen tight and spline over a frame where I used quarter round on the entire edge of the front of the screen for off-set. That screen/frame was 110". I then bought MDF and cut the pieces so that my border frame allowed for a 108" screen. I wrapped the MDF pieces in velvet and assembled them as an independent piece. I laid that down on the ground upside down and placed the 110" screen upside down on top of it. The 110" screen outer edge overlapped the internal edge of the border frame by about 1/2 - 1" all around. I bought some 1/2" sheet metal screws and a 10' strip of metal pipe hanger "tape". I am talking about the stuff at Lowe's that is a thin metal strip about 1" wide with holes punched every 1" or so. I cut a bunch of 5-6" pieces with my tin snips. I first attached one end of a strip to the back of the screen frame on the internal side from where the screen tight strip is. I then "wrapped" the strip down the outside edge of the screen frame (so it is now on top of the spandex) and screwed the opposite end of the strip into the back of the velvet-wrapped MDF in the hole as close to the edge of the screen frame to get the metal strip as tight as possible. Be careful not to get a tail of spandex in the screw as you are drilling as the spandex will twist with the screw and distort the screen (guess how I know that).

Once I got all 20 or so strips attached I held my breath and lifted it up. I love the result and the MDF frame is pretty much mated to the screen frame.

I was actually going to construct the screen like ahajr143 suggested (border completely outside the screen), but I ended up not doing it that way for two reasons. First, and more importantly, I like the look of screens with the frames that were not flush with the screen itself but were instead on top of the screen. My final product just confirmed that. I think the slightly recessed screen looks great. Second, I have a short throw distance (11') and the zoom is maxed on the Epson 8350 at 11' if I want a 110" screen. By going to 108", it gave me a little breathing room.

I also do not have a dedicated HT and am running the Epson and screen in a living room. My DLP TV is actually behind the screen and I will use the screen mainly just for movies so I will move it in and out of the room as needed (reason - WAF). My center speaker is behind the screen and I am running gray over white spandex. I watched Casino Royale last night and it was awesome. I currently use living room eco mode on the 8350 as I like the extra brightness over natural or cinema. I have not done any calibration.

Let me know if you have any questions and I will get some pics up as soon as I can.
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post #195 of 617 Old 01-10-2013, 02:50 AM
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Does Livingroom mode counteract the benefit for blacks of the gray screen?
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post #196 of 617 Old 01-10-2013, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Does Livingroom mode counteract the benefit for blacks of the gray screen?

It can indeed, if the degree of additional light exceeds the attenuation inherent in the Gray surface. There exist a balance point on Matte Gray surfaces where if just enough light is there, the image is optimal. Too much light and there are diminishing returns.

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post #197 of 617 Old 01-10-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fcastle View Post

I just did exactly what you are looking for as far as a border goes. I will post some pics within a few days, but here is what I did. I used the screen tight and spline over a frame where I used quarter round on the entire edge of the front of the screen for off-set. That screen/frame was 110". I then bought MDF and cut the pieces so that my border frame allowed for a 108" screen. I wrapped the MDF pieces in velvet and assembled them as an independent piece. I laid that down on the ground upside down and placed the 110" screen upside down on top of it. The 110" screen outer edge overlapped the internal edge of the border frame by about 1/2 - 1" all around. I bought some 1/2" sheet metal screws and a 10' strip of metal pipe hanger "tape". I am talking about the stuff at Lowe's that is a thin metal strip about 1" wide with holes punched every 1" or so. I cut a bunch of 5-6" pieces with my tin snips. I first attached one end of a strip to the back of the screen frame on the internal side from where the screen tight strip is. I then "wrapped" the strip down the outside edge of the screen frame (so it is now on top of the spandex) and screwed the opposite end of the strip into the back of the velvet-wrapped MDF in the hole as close to the edge of the screen frame to get the metal strip as tight as possible. Be careful not to get a tail of spandex in the screw as you are drilling as the spandex will twist with the screw and distort the screen (guess how I know that).

Once I got all 20 or so strips attached I held my breath and lifted it up. I love the result and the MDF frame is pretty much mated to the screen frame.

I was actually going to construct the screen like ahajr143 suggested (border completely outside the screen), but I ended up not doing it that way for two reasons. First, and more importantly, I like the look of screens with the frames that were not flush with the screen itself but were instead on top of the screen. My final product just confirmed that. I think the slightly recessed screen looks great. Second, I have a short throw distance (11') and the zoom is maxed on the Epson 8350 at 11' if I want a 110" screen. By going to 108", it gave me a little breathing room.

I also do not have a dedicated HT and am running the Epson and screen in a living room. My DLP TV is actually behind the screen and I will use the screen mainly just for movies so I will move it in and out of the room as needed (reason - WAF). My center speaker is behind the screen and I am running gray over white spandex. I watched Casino Royale last night and it was awesome. I currently use living room eco mode on the 8350 as I like the extra brightness over natural or cinema. I have not done any calibration.

Let me know if you have any questions and I will get some pics up as soon as I can.

Thank you fcastle for the detailed description. So, the outer frame is held in position by the metal hanger tape with 1 screw on the screen frame and 1 to the velvet wrapped frame? is the metal tape stiff enoug to take that load? Some pictures would really be helpful. Also what size MDF did you use, what is the boarder frame width?

Thanks again for your suggestions..
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post #198 of 617 Old 01-10-2013, 10:53 PM
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Here is a pic:



Invasion - to answer your questions: yes, one screw on each end; with 20 or so strips all around the frame, the thing is rock solid, even though the metal tape is not stiff but very pliable; and I do not know the size of the MDF off the top of my head - I will have to measure it when I get home. I do know it is 5/8" thick because that is why I bought 1/2" screws. I think the width was 3" or so. I got the MDF at Lowe's. One side of the MDF has squared off edges and one side has slighty rounded edges. I used the squared off edges as the front of the border frame.
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post #199 of 617 Old 01-13-2013, 09:00 AM
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I'd like to add my own personal observation to the Silver / White Spandex Equation
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Originally Posted by blastermaster View Post

I'm not sure what kind of calibration you do with your setup, but I have normally just used the presets posted by other users for my projector. Most of the time it has looked really good. However, after I made my spandex screen (grey over white) I decided to use my DVE disc and try it for myself. It is a fair amount darker of an image after doing the calibration, so I'm not sure if it's the properly calibrated image you're not liking or the screen itself. Personally, I have found it to be a tad too dark and have gone with a brighter setting. I know it's "wrong" according to the DVE disc and probably other calibration tools, but this is one of those situations where I choose to go with what my eyes like as opposed to what I should be seeing. For brighter movies, I go with the reference settings I've calibrated.

Don't get me wrong, the screen is definitely darker. But it is possible to get a bright image but you just need to increase the output of your projector (non- eco mode). The benefit of an AT screen trumps the minor negatives by far, IMHO. .

Everything stated above is true...almost to a Fault. I tried out Silver Milliskin over a Painted SF screen of a very light shade (1.0 = 1.2 gain ) and at first, at the insistence of the Owner who noted that since the default setting of his brand new "Out of the Box" 5020 was THX (6500K / Low Lamp), we both felt that the loss of White level was too extreme to live with in that mode. Of course, the applying of a section of the Silver Milliskin against the existing screen resulted in a direct "side by side" comparison, so the difference seemed excessive...a Gray vs White comparison always grossly favors the White as far as white rendering goes....but introducing "Living Room Mode" made a significant difference as far as overall image brightness. But not so much as far as making the Whites look proportionately brighter.

I was in favor of trying a group of settings that would involve using Living Room, but setting Lamp to low and adjusting Gamma to improve Whites. One thing for certain, with the Silver Matte Spandex, worrying much at all about such tweaking of Gamma settings creating adverse glare (localized blooming)is not necessary.

But....my chance to do so was thwarted by Mr Lucas & Co. On the SF 1.0 surface, THX mode looked crazy good.

So any further attempt to mollify him (Owner) and modify the image was effectively nixed....nipped in the bud....tossed out with the trash. The reason the Spandex overlay was even being considered was that his existing Painted Screen surface has a few "Roller imparted" streaks (Primer) showing through the sprayed-on SF finish coat. They are only apparent in a upper corner, during "Sky" scenes, but it's very depressing to have a virtually perfect surface, one that is transparent to the eye, but know beforehand that if a blue sky / white cloud scene comes up, your gonna see 'em. And...he (Owner) constantly brought it up as being the sole item he was unhappy with.

So I tried this route to help him & his reluctant wife avoid another bout of Masking / Spraying. The replaced PJ was a Epson 8700ub, one that has never had an issue. But a steal deal on a 5020 was at hand so down it came, and the Spandex fix was to allow the entire equation to become absolutely perfect.

Only it (...the Silver Spandex ) didn't cooperate. The enthusiasm over the improvement the 5020 brought to the table did however squash the last bit of resistance against a screen re-paint ( sanding / 3 coats primer - 3 coats SF 1.0 ) so at least that will (should) provide a happy ending.

Now after all that is said, I'm still a proponent for Silver Spandex Screens if & when the circumstances...and personal allowances make such a decision possible (ie: acceptable)
  • One must accept that running the PJ in a brighter mode is mandatory
  • Absolutely a corrective calibration (Gamma Tweaking) is required
  • PJ Lumen output must be 2000+
  • Screen size must be restrained to a dimension commensurate to PJ output and placement considerations.
  • You gotta like it from the start, and resist making any "White vs Gray" comparisons. Ever. biggrin.gif

Bluntly put, to dismiss or overlook any of the above IMO renders the image quality into the "I'm missing something" mode and for any / all of us DIY'ers who are used to "Over the Top Quality" end results, that can and never will do.

White Spandex? Now that is different if once again, the PJ's Contrast specifications compensate for the White surface's tendency to reduce Black Levels. I will continue to search for a Silver Metallic Spandex with desirable properties, something that with a proper backing will provide at least 1.0 gain. The Matte Milliskin Spandex's complete lack of visible weave or texture makes it a fantastic Surface for High Resolution imagery, especially if Acoustic Transparency is demanded. Most have used the Matte Moleskin to date, but I'm thinking that it's more related to it being less expensive by -$3.00 yd. than any difference in Texture or Light Transmission / Absorption. Having seen many Cloth and Vinyl Screen surfaces, and just a few painted ones ( biggrin.gif ) I'm sold on the Spandex's visual qualities.
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post #200 of 617 Old 01-13-2013, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Absolutely a corrective calibration (Gamma Tweaking) is required

Do you have an recommendations on Gamma settings for a 'quick and dirty' offset to the gray spandex material? I have an i1 display pro and will really get things correctly dialed in once the lamp gets to 100 hours - but until then I have just done the basic contrast/brightness and hue/color tweaks. Just wondering if there was a general 'baseline' adjustment I could use for now, or does it vary too much based on other parameters?
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post #201 of 617 Old 01-14-2013, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BartMan01 View Post

Do you have an recommendations on Gamma settings for a 'quick and dirty' offset to the gray spandex material? I have an i1 display pro and will really get things correctly dialed in once the lamp gets to 100 hours - but until then I have just done the basic contrast/brightness and hue/color tweaks. Just wondering if there was a general 'baseline' adjustment I could use for now, or does it vary too much based on other parameters?


If you already got a meter, go ahead and get your PJ dialed in on your own. There are just too many variables to try to replicate another person's calibrated settings.

You don't have to wait until you got 100 hrs on the lamp.

Dialed it in now. Tweaked it again at 100, and again at 500, again at 1,000 hrs, etc, etc.

The great thing about having a meter is you can tweak your settings as the bulb ages.
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post #202 of 617 Old 01-14-2013, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

If you already got a meter, go ahead and get your PJ dialed in on your own. There are just too many variables to try to replicate another person's calibrated settings.

You don't have to wait until you got 100 hrs on the lamp.

Dialed it in now. Tweaked it again at 100, and again at 500, again at 1,000 hrs, etc, etc.

The great thing about having a meter is you can tweak your settings as the bulb ages.

Sound advice......er, advice clearly given with a penchant toward visual acuity. cool.gif

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post #203 of 617 Old 01-16-2013, 07:41 AM
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fcastle - Thank you for the picture. I was able to finish my screen without the border last weekend. I am travelling this week so couldn't post the pictures. I will do that this weekend. I used 1x2x4 for my screen frame and I am thinking to use a thicker (may be 2") piece for border. and might try to see if I can tight fit with the screen frame (friction). I will keep you posted.

How did you mount your screen on to the wall? What is the best way to mount it flush to the wall you think?

Thanks,
Invasion
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post #204 of 617 Old 01-16-2013, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by invasion View Post

fcastle - Thank you for the picture. I was able to finish my screen without the border last weekend. I am travelling this week so couldn't post the pictures. I will do that this weekend. I used 1x2x4 for my screen frame and I am thinking to use a thicker (may be 2") piece for border. and might try to see if I can tight fit with the screen frame (friction). I will keep you posted.

How did you mount your screen on to the wall? What is the best way to mount it flush to the wall you think?

Thanks,
Invasion



Many people use a french cleat or picture hanger to hange it on the wall.

I used this:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202341629/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=hang+man&storeId=10051
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post #205 of 617 Old 01-16-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Many people use a french cleat or picture hanger to hange it on the wall.

I used this:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202341629/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=hang+man&storeId=10051

That looks like a good idea. Did you attach it to the top horizontal 1X4? was the depth enough to offset the screen tight height?

Thanks,,,,
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post #206 of 617 Old 01-16-2013, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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That looks like a good idea. Did you attach it to the top horizontal 1X4? was the depth enough to offset the screen tight height?

Thanks,,,,


Yup, it was a perfect fit.

I've used it on 3 different screens that I've built. Worked everytime.
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post #207 of 617 Old 01-16-2013, 02:55 PM
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I had to build a stand for mine - 2 4x4 legs with two 2x4 cross pieces and 2x4's for feet. I did a home made french cleat by cutting two 1x6 boards at a 45" angle mounted pointing up to one of the cross pieces and two 1x4 boards cut at 45 degree angles and mounted pointing down on the two center support braces of the screen. 4" width on the screen mating with 6" width on the stand gave me some left/right wiggle room to get things centered without having to move the stand.
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post #208 of 617 Old 01-17-2013, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Yup, it was a perfect fit.

I've used it on 3 different screens that I've built. Worked everytime.

I bought three of these for my screen and it seems easy to install the wall cleat and level it with the built in tube level. Is there any trick to getting the cleats on the screen just right? I'm sure I will get the wall cleats level and then mount the screen cleats and see the whole screen be out of level by a small bit. I'm just going to try and measure very precisely and hope for the best.

Screen frame pics are at the end of my build thread.

The MacBeth Theater (flood resilient build)
 

Play like a Raven

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post #209 of 617 Old 01-17-2013, 11:57 AM
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Here are couple of pictures, please excuse the quality of the pics. They are using my phone. more to follow.
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post #210 of 617 Old 01-17-2013, 02:43 PM
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For those who were previously asking about the AT properties of spandex, thanks to user Zheka I now have in my possession samples of Joanne's spandex, spandex world moleskin (or what ever it is), and fabricland's spandex (for us in Canada). I'll be doing some testing and providing some very detailed results for each material, including what doubling up the material does. Keep an eye out for a dedicated thread.

PS. when the spandex world stuff got here I was blown away how thick it is compared to my fabricland and joanne's stuff eek.gif
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