Moleskin Matte Silver vs Metallic Matte Silver Spandex Build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 51 Old 11-12-2012, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello Guys,

Thanks to inspiration from all the other DIY Spandexer's out there, I am creating my own spandex screen. I was holding out to build until moleskin matte silver was back in stock at spandex world. While I was waiting Scott Douglas started a thread "In the absense of Moleskin Matte Silver". This was the first time the Metallic Matte Silver spandex was discussed as an alternative. Thanks to MississippiMan's intriguing thoughts on the product I decided to order both Moleskin Matte and Metallic Matte vs the Moleskin Silver + Moleskin White as others have done in the past.

The frame build is essentially a cut and paste version of other spandex frames seen in this DIY forum: 1x4 kiln dried poplar, L and T brackets. I ended up using L and T brackets on both sides of the frame. I wasn't satisfied with the durability with brackets on just one side. I also decided to add some pine door stop around the perimeter of the frame so the spandex would stand off from the "base" of the frame.

General thoughts on Metallic Matte: It is a metallic silver coating on white spandex. This coating is only on one side and very easy to determine what side to use for application. Silver is an appropriate name for this color/material, its very silver.

General thoughts on Moleskin Matte: Looks quite gray compared to metallic matte. I have a very difficult time determining what is the appropriate side to use for application. Both sides of the matterial are very close. I have to be completely honest in saying that I am not sure if I used the appropriate side for comparision purposes. If someone has some tips on which side is the correct side, I greatly would appreciate that.

I will be posting some photos that I took tonight. Please forgive my noobish attempt at photos. The projector I am using is an Epson 8350 that I purchase used. The setting are bone stock. I did change the color temp to 6500k. Photos were taking in Living Room mode. This probably the 4th time I have turned on the projector. I apologize for the crude settings.

Hopefully I can figure out how to post some photos.....
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post #2 of 51 Old 11-12-2012, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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The Frame:



The Pine Stop Stand Off:



Metallic Matte on Left/Moleskin Matte on Right:



Molskin Matte Draped on Left/Metallic Matte Draped on Right:

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post #3 of 51 Old 11-12-2012, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Overall I am more drawn to the metallic matte images. The brightness seems amplified in the photos vs the acutal image, especially on the metallic. Is the more ribbed side or the moleskin the preferred projecting surface? I had all lights off for the screen shots. I was disappointed with the image with the lights on even at 50%, I admit I do have alot of lighting in the media area, six 6 inch cans on one dimmer and eight 4" cans on another dimmer. They are all floods which is big part of the issue, but the wife wanted a well lit family room.
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post #4 of 51 Old 11-12-2012, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I spent a little more time viewing the image. I tinkered with the color modes. In Dynamic mode the white of the penguins is clearly a silver. Black are much better on the Moleskin. If I had to make a decision right now. I would go with the moleskin vs metallic. My opinion could be much different with a calibrated PJ though.
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post #5 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 12:09 AM
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Thanks for the images and thoughts on the silver vs metallic! I'm building my screen as we speak and have bought the white + silver moleskin to use with it.
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post #6 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 08:23 AM
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Curious to see more thoughts. I have both materials in a box at home.
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post #7 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsl1 View Post

Curious to see more thoughts. I have both materials in a box at home.

Well, rip'em up and try'em so we can get your thoughts too!!
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post #8 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Just got finished mounting my french cleat to the wall and frame. I will make an attempt to wrap the metallic here after I get a bite to eat. What is your guy's impression of the screen shots. Which side do you prefer?
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post #9 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 11:42 AM
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Hmm, i guess that it's hard to tell as none of the materials are mounted as they would when on the frame, stretched and with proper backer. But the metallic looks nice, Maybe the whites look just a little washed out.
Is the metallic stretchable just like the silver, i mean stretchable so you can see the through the threads? Or is the metallic coating covering the woven threads?
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post #10 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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The metallic does look better in person vs the photos I took. I only really noticed whites looking silver when looking at the penguins. I should have taken a photo of the pre-trailer green screen. This would have been a very good indication of how different the colors were. On the moleskin it was the deep green, on the metallic is was significantly lighter. Noticeably different than how it normally looks. The metallic appears very prone to wrinkles. The metallic coating covers the woven threads.
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post #11 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok. Got the metallic silver on the frame. I need to get a better stretch on it. I think the metallic coating does make it very susceptible to wrinkles. Despite my moderate stretch I can still very clearly see evidenced of when it was folded as well as any wrinkles. I honestly dont know if i will get the wrinkles/creases out.

I seem to go back and forth on what I prefer. I do like the brightness/whites of the metallic, but I think colors are much more deeper on the moleskin. I thought that the penjuins looked more of a gray ont he moleskin today. Still have the projector set on natural. Still leaning towards the moleskin, unless someone is seeing something i am not.

Just metallic silver stretched on frame. No backer:



Just metallic silver stretched on frame. No backer:



Metallic silver stretched on Left/Moleskin draped on right:



Metallic silver stretched on Left/Moleskin draped on right:



Good Shot showing the difference in blacks. Moleskin silver (on right) draped over stretched Metallic:

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post #12 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 04:53 PM
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Hope this isn't thread hijacking but didnt want to start ANOTHER spandex thread ! What I'm thinking of trying is the moleskin matte silver with white thrifty hardboard as a backer . I dont need a acoustic screen and cant go any bigger than 96in diagonal . Not sure if I'll get hot spotting but hey its only 5 bucks to try ! If it doesn't work I can always put white spandex or blackout cloth as a backer.
Right now I have a 8350 but might upgrade to the 5020 by Christmas. Figure the silver matte might be a good choice to tame the brightness just a wee bit since its only a 96in screen .
I'll post some updates after thanksgiving off to deer camp in Northern MI tomorrow.

Tom O.

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post #13 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I would say if you just need a backer and don't need an AT screen (which I didnt either) white hard board is definitely the way to go. I just went with the 2 different silvers to see if one was better than the other. My screen will end up being 102" diagonal after I get trim up. I need to get my 8350 calibrated. I wonder how much that would change my perception of the 2 different silvers?
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post #14 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 09:03 PM
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The metallic looks almost too bright.

Do you have a meter to measure the brightness of the two and its color accuracy?

Screenshots usually can only tell half of the story, and sometimes not very accurately. But they are nice eye candies though. tongue.gif
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post #15 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Agreed on looking to bright. I had my wife look at the screen shots and she thought moleskin looked better. Happy wife, happy life...right? I have nothing for meters or calibration tools.

On a side note, who ever made the DIY discovery of the screen tight and spline is a pure genius. I couldnt imagine a spandex build any other way.
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post #16 of 51 Old 11-13-2012, 11:00 PM
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The Green color loks much better on the silver moleskin and the blacks, great! I'm also a bit worried about the metallic coating if you want to use it as AT since a guess the woven threads are just what makes the sound travel through the material. If you have a coating over the material it would not exactly help the sound quality ...
But them again this we don't know anything of before a test ...
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post #17 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 01:07 AM
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It is tough to judge how the screenshot looks with animated material. Can you post a few shots with people in them? Preferably the obligatory Casino Royal shot of Daniel Craig underneath the wing of the sea plane. Also, I would use the projector in normal mode, not blazing hot torch mode, I bet the silver would be preferable then.
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post #18 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I will try to get a couple pictures of the Metallic silver with people in them today. I have very limited blu-ray discs as I finally have a display with hdmi, that means I don't have casino royale. All of the photos taken are with the projector set in natural mode on the 8350. I did not take any photos in dynamic, just commented how the whites do look silver in that mode.
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post #19 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 05:35 AM
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You don't need to have a blu-ray disc.

Just google for high def images of the movies and you'll find a bunch of posters out there.

I used to pause movies to take pics, but I find it much easier displaying movie posters/screenshots to take pic.
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post #20 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

It is tough to judge how the screenshot looks with animated material. Can you post a few shots with people in them? Preferably the obligatory Casino Royal shot of Daniel Craig underneath the wing of the sea plane. Also, I would use the projector in normal mode, not blazing hot torch mode, I bet the silver would be preferable then.

It very well might be.

The SM Spandex needs to be addressed as being essentially the same as any other High Gain screen. Insomuch as that being the case, it also should be compared to a White Spandex Surface that would have at least a comparable gain level.

Previously, most erstwhile complaints regarding the lessor white levels and brightness of the Silver Moleskin have been directed at comparisons between the latter and White Spandex. Now come this latest comparison and suddenly it's, "I prefer the Blacks and colors of the Moleskin". Well gosh....those attributes have always been the Moleskin's strong points so nothing has changed. But one must remember that those self same attributes are due in keeping with the fact that the Moleskin is almost assuredly less than 1.0 gain, and any such surface Gray-hued surface will show those featured aspects.

In the posted images, i see a case where the brightness coming from the SM Spandex is washing out the Camera's spot metering when held up to a Side-By-Side with the Moleskin. also, you can be sure that what with the Moleskin being only "Draped' across the SM Spandex Screen, and it's not having a "White Spandex" backing, pretty much nothing seen can be construed as being a definitive.....or even accurate depictation.

So not only is the Jury still out....they haven't even received the Judge's instructions needed to pass sentence.

So lets take the refinement a bit further.

Imagine the situation is reversed, and the Silver Moleskin is the underlying surface beneath a Silver Metallic Spandex. I would assume that the SM Spandex would retain the surface brightness, while the collected and attenuated light directly beh9ind the SMS surface would help give the blacks and colors more deffinition. Or......a Black Spandex backing even more so.

It must be noted however that the SMS surface itself has no backing...and that actually shows that despite the light lost via absorptive pass-through, it's certainly not a dull looking image.

Lastly, when one has a higher gain surface...especially a Gray HG surface, calibration and the correct Lamp output setting are essential for achieving an optimal image. The example above (...and thanks for the effort, Duke. This is not a criticism...) isn't anywhere near a true depiction of either Fabric's potential.

So don't nobody jump to any conclusions!

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #21 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 06:35 AM
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Duke, thanks for sharing. I think the living room mode on that projector cranks the lumen output way high and that will make the silver wash out.
MM, does having a reflective material even directly behind the viewing surface increase the possibility of halos with the viewing image?

I bought some spandex from Joann Fabrics last week to experiment a little but did not like the results. I may have to try this spandex instead.
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post #22 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

You don't need to have a blu-ray disc.
Just google for high def images of the movies and you'll find a bunch of posters out there.
I used to pause movies to take pics, but I find it much easier displaying movie posters/screenshots to take pic.

I am still in the finishing stages of my basement. Basically I opened up my new player popped in a disc and took pics, then packed it all up again. As noted in the thread I have turned the projector a very limited amount of times. Thanks for the tip on the posters. I will try that in the future.
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post #23 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

Duke, thanks for sharing. I think the living room mode on that projector cranks the lumen output way high and that will make the silver wash out.
MM, does having a reflective material even directly behind the viewing surface increase the possibility of halos with the viewing image?
I bought some spandex from Joann Fabrics last week to experiment a little but did not like the results. I may have to try this spandex instead.

I used the Natural mode. It goes Dynamic, Living Room, Natural, Cinema.
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post #24 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

It very well might be.
The SM Spandex needs to be addressed as being essentially the same as any other High Gain screen. Insomuch as that being the case, it also should be compared to a White Spandex Surface that would have at least a comparable gain level.
Previously, most erstwhile complaints regarding the lessor white levels and brightness of the Silver Moleskin have been directed at comparisons between the latter and White Spandex. Now come this latest comparison and suddenly it's, "I prefer the Blacks and colors of the Moleskin". Well gosh....those attributes have always been the Moleskin's strong points so nothing has changed. But one must remember that those self same attributes are due in keeping with the fact that the Moleskin is almost assuredly less than 1.0 gain, and any such surface Gray-hued surface will show those featured aspects.
In the posted images, i see a case where the brightness coming from the SM Spandex is washing out the Camera's spot metering when held up to a Side-By-Side with the Moleskin. also, you can be sure that what with the Moleskin being only "Draped' across the SM Spandex Screen, and it's not having a "White Spandex" backing, pretty much nothing seen can be construed as being a definitive.....or even accurate depictation.
So not only is the Jury still out....they haven't even received the Judge's instructions needed to pass sentence.
So lets take the refinement a bit further.
Imagine the situation is reversed, and the Silver Moleskin is the underlying surface beneath a Silver Metallic Spandex. I would assume that the SM Spandex would retain the surface brightness, while the collected and attenuated light directly beh9ind the SMS surface would help give the blacks and colors more deffinition. Or......a Black Spandex backing even more so.
It must be noted however that the SMS surface itself has no backing...and that actually shows that despite the light lost via absorptive pass-through, it's certainly not a dull looking image.
Lastly, when one has a higher gain surface...especially a Gray HG surface, calibration and the correct Lamp output setting are essential for achieving an optimal image. The example above (...and thanks for the effort, Duke. This is not a criticism...) isn't anywhere near a true depiction of either Fabric's potential.
So don't nobody jump to any conclusions!

Thanks for chiming in MM. Sorry that I havent been able to post something that woul give us a more accurate assessement. I can try doing the moleskin as a backer with SM over that. I will probably have to wait a week + for completing that. A week +!!! you ask? Well I am running out of time to get all the finishing touches done to the basement before carpet gets delivered next monday 11/19. So all my attention will be on that. I should have been doing the unfun stuff vs playing with the fun aspect of my basement finish. Anyways, then I work on a 12hr shift on 11/20, and then.....my wife and I will be welcoming our 3rd child into this world. Yeah!

What are things that I have the ability to do to give us a better indication of SM picture quality vs Moleskin. I still dont think the wrinkles and crease marks will come out of that coated metallic, thats a bigger issue to me vs PQ.

Thanks
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post #25 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmountainman View Post

Hope this isn't thread hijacking but didnt want to start ANOTHER spandex thread ! What I'm thinking of trying is the moleskin matte silver with white thrifty hardboard as a backer . I dont need a acoustic screen and cant go any bigger than 96in diagonal . Not sure if I'll get hot spotting but hey its only 5 bucks to try ! If it doesn't work I can always put white spandex or blackout cloth as a backer.
Right now I have a 8350 but might upgrade to the 5020 by Christmas. Figure the silver matte might be a good choice to tame the brightness just a wee bit since its only a 96in screen .
I'll post some updates after thanksgiving off to deer camp in Northern MI tomorrow.

if you do not need AT screen there is little benefit in using spandex at all. there are better alternatives imho.
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post #26 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Broadway View Post

What are things that I have the ability to do to give us a better indication of SM picture quality vs Moleskin. I still dont think the wrinkles and crease marks will come out of that coated metallic, thats a bigger issue to me vs PQ.
Thanks

Try putting the Spandex into the Dryer under medium heat for 20 minutes, then stretch it while it's still warm.

That should do it for you. And don't spare the stretching effort. Stretch the spandex until you can see the weave start yo deform. Then back off just enough that the weave settles back into a normal appearance.

Taking photos....stand back in the room, then zoom in to frame the Screen as well as a small amount of surrounding wall area. Zooming attenuates light. Also, try switching your camera from Multi-spot Focusing/ Metering to Single Spot. Then slightly move the Focus/Metering frame around and take several shots. Select the one / s that represent what you feel you actually see.

It's still gonna be a case where if there is a decided difference in gain, being able to show an accurate image of both side by side will be at best problematical. It would me much better to take two separate shots of identical content, under identical lighting and from the exact same position, then collage them together into a "Side by Side".

Yeah.....doing these things to a point / level where people don't pick apart your effort can be a PITA. Don't I know it! But in the end, the valuable resource one can provide for the uninitiated and uninformed can not only help such individuals in the decision making process, it can do them the even greater favor of avoiding making costly or time consuming mistakes....and having the despondent feelings that usually come along right behind.

It goes like this....those who receive help usually can justify helping others in return. That's a primary cornerstone of the DIY Screen edifice. It also explains why I'm constantly all "up in everyone's business".

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post #27 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Try putting the Spandex into the Dryer under medium heat for 20 minutes, then stretch it while it's still warm.
That should do it for you. And don't spare the stretching effort. Stretch the spandex until you can see the weave start yo deform. Then back off just enough that the weave settles back into a normal appearance.
Taking photos....stand back in the room, then zoom in to frame the Screen as well as a small amount of surrounding wall area. Zooming attenuates light. Also, try switching your camera from Multi-spot Focusing/ Metering to Single Spot. Then slightly move the Focus/Metering frame around and take several shots. Select the one / s that represent what you feel you actually see.
It's still gonna be a case where if there is a decided difference in gain, being able to show an accurate image of both side by side will be at best problematical. It would me much better to take two separate shots of identical content, under identical lighting and from the exact same position, then collage them together into a "Side by Side".
Yeah.....doing these things to a point / level where people don't pick apart your effort can be a PITA. Don't I know it! But in the end, the valuable resource one can provide for the uninitiated and uninformed can not only help such individuals in the decision making process, it can do them the even greater favor of avoiding making costly or time consuming mistakes....and having the despondent feelings that usually come along right behind.
It goes like this....those who receive help usually can justify helping others in return. That's a primary cornerstone of the DIY Screen edifice. It also explains why I'm constantly all "up in everyone's business".
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Isn't the metallic coating "rubberish" and will melt in a dryer? eek.gif
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post #28 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

if you do not need AT screen there is little benefit in using spandex at all. there are better alternatives imho.

Not entirely so! Spandex is extremely lightweight....easy to work with, and can provide a lessor degree of DIY effort but also provide more than applicable results.

Are there better apps to consider? Of course! I prefer painting a ultra smooth Wall with a high performance coating. But requires a decent wall surface and a Electric HVLP Gun

Myself, being such a staunch advocate of painted surfaces, I realize it must seem strange to some why I started re-addressing the Spandex application some months ago. Simply put....those who do need AT screens can find Spandex to be a much more affordable and user Friendly application that can actually outperform a Mfg offering. Those who need a Hang up / Movable Screen can realize having one that is much less "weighty" and easier to build than any Black-Out Cloth variety.

It's all about giving the DIY'er options. and the more options there are, the more varied and various DIY'ers stand a chance of realizing an application that is ideally suited for their needs and circumstances.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #29 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristofer View Post

Isn't the metallic coating "rubberish" and will melt in a dryer? eek.gif

Not under low / medium heat. Besides....if it was not washable / dry-able....imagine how funky Exercise Togs would get. eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

I don't see an issue under those specified conditions.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
MississippiMan is offline  
post #30 of 51 Old 11-14-2012, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Not entirely so! Spandex is extremely lightweight....easy to work with, and can provide a lessor degree of DIY effort but also provide more than applicable results.
Are there better apps to consider? Of course! I prefer painting a ultra smooth Wall with a high performance coating. But requires a decent wall surface and a Electric HVLP Gun
Myself, being such a staunch advocate of painted surfaces, I realize it must seem strange to some why I started re-addressing the Spandex application some months ago. Simply put....those who do need AT screens can find Spandex to be a much more affordable and user Friendly application that can actually outperform a Mfg offering. Those who need a Hang up / Movable Screen can realize having one that is much less "weighty" and easier to build than any Black-Out Cloth variety.
It's all about giving the DIY'er options. and the more options there are, the more varied and various DIY'ers stand a chance of realizing an application that is ideally suited for their needs and circumstances.

I am yet to see anybody who preferred spandex over BOC for the picture quality.

Update: I may be factually incorrect about it. Do you like the PQ of spandex screens better, MM?
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