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post #1 of 80 Old 11-26-2012, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Guys/Gals

Since I couldn't find an intro section on this website, I just wanted to say that I'm a new member from Ottawa, Ontario. This is my first time getting into decent home theater equipment. I have spent probably over 30 hours reading in the last two weeks and have learned a lot about avr, projectors and screens. I was hesitant to make this thread because I don't want to repeat the same questions but I'm at a lost.

Previously I had been using LG 37 720P LCD and Logitech z-5500 speakers as a student.

Anyways that aside I have purchased a JVC DLA-HD250.

I'm looking for the following in a screen.
1) 110-120"
2) Solid substrate that is easy to acquire
3) I don't mind using a custom paint formula


Usage Scenarios: Basement room with 2 windows
1) Night time movie watching in darkness - should be very little ambient lights -40% Most important
2) Night time Video gaming - Willing to sacrifice some quality here- Willing to sacrifice some quality here
3) Evening/afternoon watching with some light from windows- 20% - this is the least important scenario


Room:
1) ~14ft x ~30
2) viewing distance I'll probably use SMPTE
3) I plan to add BOC to the windows

I read the DIY sticky but couldn't decide, I was recommended that I should go for a gray screen but what kind and what formula/substrate?

Thank you guys in advance


I'll get pictures of the space once I get a chance.

What I'm leaving behind


Pic of wall From seating position


Windows


Entire room





Dec 6th 2012

Added some fabric to the currently untreated wall. I can't tell if it made any difference. Maybe my eyes are just crappy. Still the room needs a lot of work. The carpet is very reflective.

Before fabric




Picture of Fabric


After fabric




December 16 2012 update

Monoprice mount was too small even though the specs made it look like it would be fine for this projector. So I had to macgyver a solution





Built a riser for the rear couch. Need to add carpet.


Final image size is 128"



December 19 2012 update

Before Sanding


After Sanding


Two coats of white paint


Cable management



January 5 2013 update

Final wall paint - two coats of RS-MaxxMudd LL




Two images with ambient light



Images with completely dark room. Pictures taken with a canon T2i with 18-55 kit lens. Automatic (flash-off mode)





Pictures of my summer toy



More screen caps in complete darkness






Final product





Paint supply list (CANADA)
Lowes
Rustoleum Metallic Accents - White Pearl - 30oz bottle $39.98
Minwax polycrylic Satin - 30Oz $18.67
3/16 Nap roller 1pc - $5.48
6" foam roller 2 pc - $6.58

Michael's
Liquitex Basics Silver $6.99/4 oz tube

Home depot
Behr 1750 (1850 replacement) $22 for 30 Oz


Final world
Pictures of final product have been uploaded. I have spent about 30 hours with the system playing games, watching movies and streaming TV. The picture quality has surpassed all my expectations. The experience is totally awesome and better than a movie theater and its all in my own house. I think the combination of my projector and RS-MaxxMudd LL is exceptional. The whole project was a joy to work on and definitely let me scratch my DIY itch,

The colours and black depth are much better than both of my old 720P LCD and 1080P plasma. I also just bought a new pn60e550 samsung plasma which has better blacks and more vibrant colours. But the difference in quality between the projector and the TV are not big enough to take anything away from the experience when switching from TV to projector.

I would whole heartedly recommend anyone to try out the RS-MaxxMudd LL or its other variants. I still have to do calibration on my projector and plasma but for now I am just enjoying both. I am also going to add one more run of black cloth to reduce affects of reflections from the side walls

If you need to contact me my email is my username at Gmail.

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post #2 of 80 Old 11-26-2012, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Added pictures

Ps: I know its messy, we just had a wedding in the family. I also took down the tv and didn't clean up the mess yet :P

If you need to contact me my email is my username at Gmail.

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post #3 of 80 Old 11-29-2012, 03:01 AM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 80 Old 11-29-2012, 06:51 AM
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The beginners guide at the top of this forum has a lot of good info to get started. Depending on your wall and if you want the wall to be the screen or you want to hang the screen on the wall is up to you. Once you get to that point some has to do with the skills you have and access to the area, as in bringing a big screen down some stairs etc.

I have my preferences in the type of screen I like but others have different needs. Your room is very nice but also is very light in color and that is a negative and may influence how you will be viewing. Read thru the guide and the links in my signature and come back and we can see what we can do.
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post #5 of 80 Old 11-29-2012, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

The beginners guide at the top of this forum has a lot of good info to get started. Depending on your wall and if you want the wall to be the screen or you want to hang the screen on the wall is up to you. Once you get to that point some has to do with the skills you have and access to the area, as in bringing a big screen down some stairs etc.
I have my preferences in the type of screen I like but others have different needs. Your room is very nice but also is very light in color and that is a negative and may influence how you will be viewing. Read thru the guide and the links in my signature and come back and we can see what we can do.

Thank you for your reply. I know that I will paint the screen wall black. but the side walls and everything else will stay the same colour. I also know that I want a solid screen (not fabric) and I want it to be a few inches off of the wall. I just can't decide between white and gray.

If you need to contact me my email is my username at Gmail.

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post #6 of 80 Old 11-29-2012, 09:45 AM
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Side walls and ceiling being white will hurt PQ much more than the back wall. The back wall being black will enhance the viewing experience in several ways mostly doing with perception not so much reflecting light to the screen. The biggest culprit will be the white ceiling as it is closer to the screen and also the projector. I painted my ceiling black 5 feet from the screen and the PQ improvement was great, but then again my screen is very close to the low ceiling I have. I know many can’t do such for many reasons.

Without a doubt you will benefit from a gray screen given your room. The question is how gray based around the size screen you want and how bright your projector is and what setting you use. Some gray / silver screen paints help with giving a degree of angular gain to the paint and can replace some of the negative gain impact of just gray. The number of foot lamberts striking the screen and the ambient level you want in the room during viewing play a part.

In my case I wanted a room like a sports bar almost. I wanted it bright enough where I was seated to read the newspaper or at least be able to find my beer without grabbing my buddy’s knee when watching a football game. I also didn’t want to lose any quality I didn’t have to. So I designed the room to direct the task lighting away from the screen, used a dark gray screen and a super high lumen PJ. The second mode I wanted was to have it work as a lights out home theater.

You can’t always go by the advertised lumen output and CR, and its best to read reviews if planning a setup. In your case you have a projector so you can do some simple testing to help you get a feel for what you will need. I find that method to be best. You need to know where you are with the life of your lamp also. And if starting with a fresh lamp leave yourself room to adjust brightness as it dims. You can also maximize your brightness by where you place your projector and the degree of zoom used. Keep in mind when you zoom the light has to pass thru a smaller iris and cuts down output. If you remember film cameras they had f-stops and each f-stop cut or doubled the light input. In this case the zoom will affect the light output. Most humans can’t see a doubling of the light output as you would think you surely could but as output goes up your eyes also have an iris that controls input. That’s why a plasma tv might be many times brighter than a projector but in one case you are watching with your iris mostly open the other closed. Also the reason you see CR on the plasma with the room lights on. Much of this is tricking the brain and eyes. I have seen people that have bat caves draped in black watching and enjoying huge images that are only 5 foot lamberts in brightness. I’m in a much brighter room with less light control and a gray screen but my image is up around 30 foot lamberts. To give you a point of reference a movie theater is around 15 FL. Their walls are over 100 feet though from the screen so light gets to get spread out a bit going and returning to the screen.

As to what to paint. I used canvas on a frame. But anything smooth and paintable will work. depending on size and having seams was what drove me to a fabric.
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post #7 of 80 Old 11-30-2012, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much a lot of what you said i had considered based on reading before. I will be mounting the projector to a Spot that allows me to keep the iris wide open and give me the Desired screen size. I have A lot of room to mount it.

My projector is at 500 hours so it should have dimmed enough to make up for thr initial brightness of A new lamp.

Finally the spec lumens on the dla hd250 are actually very very accurate based on reviews.

My scenario is probably 50% dark theater and 50% sport Bar dim light. I have Pot lights that Will be directed away from the screen.

I think mdf type board will be the easiest to acquire and paint for me. Ill have to look into the custom paints popular On this site. Thanks For pointing me in the proper Direction

If you need to contact me my email is my username at Gmail.

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post #8 of 80 Old 11-30-2012, 11:37 AM
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Time for me to chip in.

If your looking to do a 110' Screen, you don't want to consider MDF. In fact, MDF is a poor choice under most every circumstance as far as being the actual screen surface. It requires a lot of priming, sanding, and re-priming to seal the surface, and if you get anything at or above 1/2" it's damnable heavy stuff to deal with. Under 1/2' and to prevent warpage you must also prime/seal the opposite surface.

Way too much of a PITA, as far as i'm concerned.

You need to instead consider Sintra / Komatex Sheeting in the 10' x 5' x 6mm size, cut specifically to 58" x 100" so that you have a 96" x 54" formatted screen surface, with 2" additional border area on all sides to accommodate both the attachment of the material to the wall via Drywall screws, and to serve as the under layment for the placement of your Screen's Trim.

Your a Canuk I see, but both Piedmont Plastics and Larid Plastics have Distributorships up North.

Also, not enough attention has been paid to your selected PJ's 1000 lumen output restriction. Even though 1000 "JVC" Lumen s shine brighter than other Mfg comparably powered projectors, it's still remains a case where you do NOT want to consider any screen surface that will fall below 1.0 gain under any circumstances. Even at 1.2 gain and 110' diagonal being hit from a Throw Distance of 11.2', your maximum foot lambert of brightness off the screen will be limited to 16 fl (...which is certainly ok....) and that is taking into account a New lamp's performance.

By far and away your best choice would be RS-MaxxMudd LL. That is a very light Silvery Gray DIY Paint application that is both spray-able & roll-able. pretty easy to assemble as well. It has a measured gain of a minimum of 1.3, and well known "perceived contrast enhancement" ability that noticeably improves the depth of your Black Floor.

IMHO, there is not much else to consider, nor is your circumstance at all hard to have a optimal determination be made. But I'm known to take a decided stance on these matters right off, so it's wholly up to you to judge whatever advice your receive as merit worthy and make a decision you feel good about.
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post #9 of 80 Old 11-30-2012, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Time for me to chip in.
If your looking to do a 110' Screen, you don't want to consider MDF. In fact, MDF is a poor choice under most every circumstance as far as being the actual screen surface. It requires a lot of priming, sanding, and re-priming to seal the surface, and if you get anything at or above 1/2" it's damnable heavy stuff to deal with. Under 1/2' and to prevent warpage you must also prime/seal the opposite surface.
Way too much of a PITA, as far as i'm concerned.
You need to instead consider Sintra / Komatex Sheeting in the 10' x 5' x 6mm size, cut specifically to 58" x 100" so that you have a 96" x 54" formatted screen surface, with 2" additional border area on all sides to accommodate both the attachment of the material to the wall via Drywall screws, and to serve as the under layment for the placement of your Screen's Trim.
Your a Canuk I see, but both Piedmont Plastics and Larid Plastics have Distributorships up North.
Also, not enough attention has been paid to your selected PJ's 1000 lumen output restriction. Even though 1000 "JVC" Lumen s shine brighter than other Mfg comparably powered projectors, it's still remains a case where you do NOT want to consider any screen surface that will fall below 1.0 gain under any circumstances. Even at 1.2 gain and 110' diagonal being hit from a Throw Distance of 11.2', your maximum foot lambert of brightness off the screen will be limited to 16 fl (...which is certainly ok....) and that is taking into account a New lamp's performance.
By far and away your best choice would be RS-MaxxMudd LL. That is a very light Silvery Gray DIY Paint application that is both spray-able & roll-able. pretty easy to assemble as well. It has a measured gain of a minimum of 1.3, and well known "perceived contrast enhancement" ability that noticeably improves the depth of your Black Floor.
IMHO, there is not much else to consider, nor is your circumstance at all hard to have a optimal determination be made. But I'm known to take a decided stance on these matters right off, so it's wholly up to you to judge whatever advice your receive as merit worthy and make a decision you feel good about.

I honestly cannot say enough thanks to you for taking out the time and answering my questions. I'm glad you gave me one simple direction, that is what I was looking for. I was not set on MDF, I was just trying to avoid fabric. If it is cost prohibitive to order the plastics than what is the best (easily available) cloth you recommend to roll RS-MaxxMudd LL on to?

If you need to contact me my email is my username at Gmail.

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post #10 of 80 Old 11-30-2012, 03:08 PM
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You should not have to order "squat' as Laird Plastics has a outlet on Ottowa.

Laird Plastics of Ottawa
700 industrial av #6 & 7
Ottawa, ON K1G 0Y9
Manager:Mike Lanthier
Phone:877-228-2296

Sintra / Komatex Sheeting in the 10' x 5' x 6mm size, cut specifically prior to pick-up to 58" x 100"

As far as "Cloth" the venerable old stand-by Black Out Cloth would be the choice, But a very good Frame must be built, and the Cloth stretched very tight to help allow someone who has never rolled onto such a surface to do so with what needs to be / demands to be excellent, error free results.

When you stop to consider the cost in tears (...let alone cash...) should you fudge up a first attempt, the Sintra would have to be mighty more expensive to not be worth it..

Get'ter Dun!
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post #11 of 80 Old 11-30-2012, 03:36 PM
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Also, I gotta stress that everything Bud mentioned to you about your Room being so light, and not just potentially...but assuredly detrimental to performance was / is dead on the money.

At least 40% (to left) of your screen will be "under' that Chase Plenum. And that surface....probably less than 12 away, will be acting like a big white reflector. Bud's solution was to go "Black". Many do so. And it works...leastwise ridiculously so compared to a white surface. But besides being pug ugly as a "Color" ( ...all WAF flies away...away...) Black will actually do a good job reflecting a blue cast. And the only reason to paint the screen wall Black is a personal preference to see it be Black...when the lights are on. When the lights are off, guess what? Even if it's bright Yellow wall it's gonna look "Black". The Screen cannot provide any light "backwards" so your not going to have to worry about the "NEED" to paint the Screen Wall Black for any performance related reason.

Besides...there are better Color choices you can make that might pass muster with the Wife.....or Landlord. get the Wife involved and she might surprise you. (...they rend to love that...)

Conversely, if you simply go and have a Color Chip of your wall paint Computer matched, and then instruct the Paint tech to mix you up the same color only 4x darker, you could effectively reduce reflections by 85-90% by painting a "Stripe" 6' out from the Screen wall and across the room right to left to under the lowest Plenum...and vertically down the right Wall. That "Two sided" Graphic approach can look really good, and as opposed to leaving everything white... rolleyes.gif Well let's just say you could paint the ceiling and walls almost ANY flat "Cool" color that was significantly darker than beige and get much better results.

So in fact, your options are pretty open. They just should not include your leaving the ceiling over the Screen "as is" and do not require the Screen wall be black.
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post #12 of 80 Old 12-02-2012, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Also, I gotta stress that everything Bud mentioned to you about your Room being so light, and not just potentially...but assuredly detrimental to performance was / is dead on the money.
At least 40% (to left) of your screen will be "under' that Chase Plenum. And that surface....probably less than 12 away, will be acting like a big white reflector. Bud's solution was to go "Black". Many do so. And it works...leastwise ridiculously so compared to a white surface. But besides being pug ugly as a "Color" ( ...all WAF flies away...away...) Black will actually do a good job reflecting a blue cast. And the only reason to paint the screen wall Black is a personal preference to see it be Black...when the lights are on. When the lights are off, guess what? Even if it's bright Yellow wall it's gonna look "Black". The Screen cannot provide any light "backwards" so your not going to have to worry about the "NEED" to paint the Screen Wall Black for any performance related reason.
Besides...there are better Color choices you can make that might pass muster with the Wife.....or Landlord. get the Wife involved and she might surprise you. (...they rend to love that...)
Conversely, if you simply go and have a Color Chip of your wall paint Computer matched, and then instruct the Paint tech to mix you up the same color only 4x darker, you could effectively reduce reflections by 85-90% by painting a "Stripe" 6' out from the Screen wall and across the room right to left to under the lowest Plenum...and vertically down the right Wall. That "Two sided" Graphic approach can look really good, and as opposed to leaving everything white... rolleyes.gif Well let's just say you could paint the ceiling and walls almost ANY flat "Cool" color that was significantly darker than beige and get much better results.
So in fact, your options are pretty open. They just should not include your leaving the ceiling over the Screen "as is" and do not require the Screen wall be black.

I definitely had to look up what a "chase plenum" is and I still don't understand. I do however understand what you are trying to say and what will give me the best return on investment in terms of improving picture quality. Thanks for all the hard work you put in your replies.

I can't paint the ceiling but I am thinking about paiting the walls 4 shades darker. Good point on the black screen wall as well. I was mainly doing it as a preference thing as I came to the same logical conclusion as you did. I think I'll just leave it as is because black will make the room look smaller.

I'll give Laird a call and get a quote tomorrow and go from there.

If you need to contact me my email is my username at Gmail.

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post #13 of 80 Old 12-04-2012, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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So I just tried out to see whats the biggest screen I can fit in and I can get upto 150" on that wall so I'm not thinking to go with a 135-140" screen. What substrate can I use then?

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post #14 of 80 Old 12-04-2012, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
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So I just tried out to see whats the biggest screen I can fit in and I can get upto 150" on that wall so I'm not thinking to go with a 135-140" screen. What substrate can I use then?

If you make a 2.35:1 Format screen, 120" x 51" will get you up to 130" diagonal in that Format. If you opt to use the Zoom and Len shift to re-position a 16:9 image within the 120" x 51" area, you'd still have a 104" diagonal

Now if you instead focus on 16:9 only, with Sintra you can achieve a 60" x 107" size and get a 122" Screen

Only in the rarest instances can one find the 72" x 120" Sintra, and while that size is essentially worthless as far as expanding past 130" diagonal in 2.35:1, in 16:9 it would bump you up....way up....to 68" x 120" @ 138" diagonal.

Beyond that, two drywall sheets placed together gets it done. Pretty inexpensively too. 2 -12' x 4' sheets trimmed to 124" x 35" come together to create a a 124" x 70" 16:9'er that would be a full 143" diagonal. eek.gif

.......or a 144" x 61" monster of a 2.35:1 screen that would be 156" diagonal in that Format....and a full, robust 124" diagonal in 16:9


Hmmmmmm.............which one o'dese?


PS, there are some other substrates, such a Polycarbonate Plastic and laminated Aluminum Panels, but they are not cost effective. Really, if I was plotting the same course as you...and had to go bigger than 122" diagonal / 130" diagonal (16:9 - 2.35:1) then I'd be going the Drywall route for certain sure.
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post #15 of 80 Old 12-04-2012, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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If you make a 2.35:1 Format screen, 120" x 51" will get you up to 130" diagonal in that Format. If you opt to use the Zoom and Len shift to re-position a 16:9 image within the 120" x 51" area, you'd still have a 104" diagonal
Now if you instead focus on 16:9 only, with Sintra you can achieve a 60" x 107" size and get a 122" Screen
Only in the rarest instances can one find the 72" x 120" Sintra, and while that size is essentially worthless as far as expanding past 130" diagonal in 2.35:1, in 16:9 it would bump you up....way up....to 68" x 120" @ 138" diagonal.
Beyond that, two drywall sheets placed together gets it done. Pretty inexpensively too. 2 -12' x 4' sheets trimmed to 124" x 35" come together to create a a 124" x 70" 16:9'er that would be a full 143" diagonal. eek.gif
.......or a 144" x 61" monster of a 2.35:1 screen that would be 156" diagonal in that Format....and a full, robust 124" diagonal in 16:9
Hmmmmmm.............which one o'dese?
PS, there are some other substrates, such a Polycarbonate Plastic and laminated Aluminum Panels, but they are not cost effective. Really, if I was plotting the same course as you...and had to go bigger than 122" diagonal / 130" diagonal (16:9 - 2.35:1) then I'd be going the Drywall route for certain sure.

Okay sounds good. I just read all the beginners guides again and actually paid attention. So combining what you said above with the DIY guides looks like I will be using dry wall. I'll have to see if my wall is straight enough to directly paint on that otherwise I'll build a frame and dry wall on top. I am sticking with 16:9 because all the movies I have seem to be in that format plus I believe xbox is in that format too.

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post #16 of 80 Old 12-05-2012, 05:58 AM
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As mentioned previously, Sintra/Komatex for substrate. If not available, pick up a sheet of 'white board' at the local hardware stores.

Keep it simple. SW Unique Gray or Extra White. No need to mess with spraying/mixes. You'll be pleasantly surprise at the end results.
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post #17 of 80 Old 12-05-2012, 03:00 PM
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Re-read fatestkid's posts. Note his desired screen size. Look at his PJ's lumen output. Neither SW paint by itself will suffice to provide what fatestkid needs.

Your post reads like a wholesale dismissal of the need to consider anything but simple Paints. Nothing is further from the reality of the majority of situations most DIY'er face.

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post #18 of 80 Old 12-05-2012, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Re-read fatestkid's posts. Note his desired screen size. Look at his PJ's lumen output. Neither SW paint by itself will suffice to provide what fatestkid needs.
Your post reads like a wholesale dismissal of the need to consider anything but simple Paints. Nothing is further from the reality of the majority of situations most DIY'er face.

I decided to go all the way. Hopefully this weekend I can get the wall prepped for painting. I am still having trouble sourcing all the paint ingredients but I will work on that on the weekend as well. Finally I have also decided to cover the ceiling and side walls in fabric, so that it is not permanent but does improve PQ. I can't wait for this to be set-up.

With the projector and the 5.1 set-up that I purchase this will be my first time having a decent AV set-up and I have you and countless other members of this forum to thank for it smile.gif

If you need to contact me my email is my username at Gmail.

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post #19 of 80 Old 12-06-2012, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Re-read fatestkid's posts. Note his desired screen size. Look at his PJ's lumen output. Neither SW paint by itself will suffice to provide what fatestkid needs.
Your post reads like a wholesale dismissal of the need to consider anything but simple Paints. Nothing is further from the reality of the majority of situations most DIY'er face.


Paint mixes, while sound sophisticated, has no significant improvement over a neutral white or gray paint screen.

We've been down this path before. I'll just leave it there.
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post #20 of 80 Old 12-06-2012, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Paint mixes, while sound sophisticated, has no significant improvement over a neutral white or gray paint screen.
We've been down this path before. I'll just leave it there.

That attempt at making such a comment and then "leaving it at that" doesn't float...wash, or hold fast.

You can leave it at the point where you completely mistaken.

You, and some very few others who share your mind think might have attempted to convince others of that, but you all are running contrary to the proven results and experiences of many hundreds of prior members who can attest differently. That you do not want to delve into such DIY projects is your choice, but please do not try to dismiss that viable option and choice that others can benefit from by the weight of your own opinion.

I have made it an express effort to repeatedly show Screen apps that no other advocate of "Simple One Can Paint" solutions have ever even attempted....and at screen sizes and with PJ specs that would decry the possibility of such in the minds of those who either do not, or will not accept the premise that Contrast Enhancing Color and Gain can be combined to produce a superior image.

That's an indisputable fact that weighs in far more heavily than any off hand comment or opinion. You know of where you might find some who feel similarly, but not completely so, or they would not advocate their own "advanced" paint mixes. Why you seem to ignore that is puzzling. Or not?

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #21 of 80 Old 12-06-2012, 08:50 PM
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Just for the benefit of anyone besides the OP who might also read this, let me chime in with a little experience of my own with screen paint; everything from the simple to a Silver Fire 2.5 Light Fusion screen.

My experience backs up MM 100%.

My first screen was made by rolling slightly modified Sherwin Williams white on drywall for a Hughes G1000 projector, and I was tickled pink. After a while I decided to try grey, so I covered that with some Sherwin Williams grey, and I was more tickled pink.

After another while I wanted something better, so I rolled a Screen Goo CRT white screen(which means paint manufactured by Goo Systems) , which was significantly brighter, although I missed the perceived contrast boost of the grey screen.

At this point I added a projector (for the living room) which came with a Da-Lite Hi Power screen, very bright, terrible contrast. I actually liked a screen that I built a little later (as a test) using a frame and grey blackout vinyl shade material better. So I built another Screen Goo screen, this time it was what they called Ultra Grey. It was the best by far (to that point) for the living room and contrast enhancement. This screen saw a Panasonic AE700 and the current projector, a Mitsubishi HC4900 (about 6 years old).

After reading a lot about the Silver Fire and other paint mixes on this forum, I was finally moved to try something that appeared to be better. After some (self induced) trials and tribulation, I completed a 106" 2.35:1 Silver Fire 2.5 light fusion (paint sprayed on an acrylic mirror at a thickness that leaves it translucent, not ENTIRELY reflective) screen.

Every change to this point was at best an evolutionary, and incremental improvement. The improvement that I realized with the Silver Fire screen was not "incremental". It was immediately obvious, dramatic, and revelatory. The resulting image (in the same room, with the same projector) was dramatically better in every way. Better contrast, better whites, better blacks, better detail, better color saturation...................you get the "picture". The level of improvement from the Grey Screen Goo to the Silver Fire screen feels at least as great as all the other improvements put together.

In my opinion anyone who claims that Sherwin Williams "Unique Grey" or "Extra White" will perform as well as these custom paint mixes has never seen one of these screens in person, and/or is hopelessly biased for reasons known only to themselves. The results which are achievable are quite simply unmistakeable and indisputable.

If you have eyes to see with, that is.
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post #22 of 80 Old 12-06-2012, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewGate88 View Post

Just for the benefit of anyone besides the OP who might also read this, let me chime in with a little experience of my own with screen paint; everything from the simple to a Silver Fire 2.5 Light Fusion screen.
My experience backs up MM 100%.
My first screen was made by rolling slightly modified Sherwin Williams white on drywall for a Hughes G1000 projector, and I was tickled pink. After a while I decided to try grey, so I covered that with some Sherwin Williams grey, and I was more tickled pink.
After another while I wanted something better, so I rolled a Screen Goo CRT white screen(which means paint manufactured by Goo Systems) , which was significantly brighter, although I missed the perceived contrast boost of the grey screen.
At this point I added a projector (for the living room) which came with a Da-Lite Hi Power screen, very bright, terrible contrast. I actually liked a screen that I built a little later (as a test) using a frame and grey blackout vinyl shade material better. So I built another Screen Goo screen, this time it was what they called Ultra Grey. It was the best by far (to that point) for the living room and contrast enhancement. This screen saw a Panasonic AE700 and the current projector, a Mitsubishi HC4900 (about 6 years old).
After reading a lot about the Silver Fire and other paint mixes on this forum, I was finally moved to try something that appeared to be better. After some (self induced) trials and tribulation, I completed a 106" 2.35:1 Silver Fire 2.5 light fusion (paint sprayed on an acrylic mirror at a thickness that leaves it translucent, not ENTIRELY reflective) screen.
Every change to this point was at best an evolutionary, and incremental improvement. The improvement that I realized with the Silver Fire screen was not "incremental". It was immediately obvious, dramatic, and revelatory. The resulting image (in the same room, with the same projector) was dramatically better in every way. Better contrast, better whites, better blacks, better detail, better color saturation...................you get the "picture". The level of improvement from the Grey Screen Goo to the Silver Fire screen feels at least as great as all the other improvements put together.
In my opinion anyone who claims that Sherwin Williams "Unique Grey" or "Extra White" will perform as well as these custom paint mixes has never seen one of these screens in person, and/or is hopelessly biased for reasons known only to themselves. The results which are achievable are quite simply unmistakeable and indisputable.
If you have eyes to see with, that is.

Thanks for posting this. I'll update the OP with before and after pictures once I'm done.

If you need to contact me my email is my username at Gmail.

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post #23 of 80 Old 12-06-2012, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Added some fabric to the currently untreated wall. I can't tell if it made any difference. Maybe my eyes are just crappy. Still the room needs a lot of work. The carpet is very reflective.

If you need to contact me my email is my username at Gmail.

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post #24 of 80 Old 12-07-2012, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewGate88 View Post

Just for the benefit of anyone besides the OP who might also read this, let me chime in with a little experience of my own with screen paint; everything from the simple to a Silver Fire 2.5 Light Fusion screen.
My experience backs up MM 100%.
My first screen was made by rolling slightly modified Sherwin Williams white on drywall for a Hughes G1000 projector, and I was tickled pink. After a while I decided to try grey, so I covered that with some Sherwin Williams grey, and I was more tickled pink.
After another while I wanted something better, so I rolled a Screen Goo CRT white screen(which means paint manufactured by Goo Systems) , which was significantly brighter, although I missed the perceived contrast boost of the grey screen.
At this point I added a projector (for the living room) which came with a Da-Lite Hi Power screen, very bright, terrible contrast. I actually liked a screen that I built a little later (as a test) using a frame and grey blackout vinyl shade material better. So I built another Screen Goo screen, this time it was what they called Ultra Grey. It was the best by far (to that point) for the living room and contrast enhancement. This screen saw a Panasonic AE700 and the current projector, a Mitsubishi HC4900 (about 6 years old).
After reading a lot about the Silver Fire and other paint mixes on this forum, I was finally moved to try something that appeared to be better. After some (self induced) trials and tribulation, I completed a 106" 2.35:1 Silver Fire 2.5 light fusion (paint sprayed on an acrylic mirror at a thickness that leaves it translucent, not ENTIRELY reflective) screen.
Every change to this point was at best an evolutionary, and incremental improvement. The improvement that I realized with the Silver Fire screen was not "incremental". It was immediately obvious, dramatic, and revelatory. The resulting image (in the same room, with the same projector) was dramatically better in every way. Better contrast, better whites, better blacks, better detail, better color saturation...................you get the "picture". The level of improvement from the Grey Screen Goo to the Silver Fire screen feels at least as great as all the other improvements put together.
In my opinion anyone who claims that Sherwin Williams "Unique Grey" or "Extra White" will perform as well as these custom paint mixes has never seen one of these screens in person, and/or is hopelessly biased for reasons known only to themselves. The results which are achievable are quite simply unmistakeable and indisputable.
If you have eyes to see with, that is.


NewGate88

What a great post.

And you are 100% correct your eyes do not lie.

Have you thought deeper into the why of what you see and know to be truth? I think we all know that the screen no matter what type of material or paint is passive. We don’t plug the screen into a wall outlet and it collects data in the form of light and then amplifies the bright and darkens the surface needed to be black. It’s passive and reflects any and all light striking it in the same way coming from the projector. I think all will agree the screen can’t produce light and it can’t improve on the contrast ratio coming from the projector. Some here claim that CR can be improved and logic tells us that in order to do that the screen can no longer be passive. In fact that claim was made again in this thread.

So where is the improved contrast coming from? If you go to the manufacture Black Diamond and watch their video they have a projector blasting out a washed out image to a white screen and then roll down a BD screen to an amazing image full of CR. Clearly that screen is producing contrast not coming from the projector along with producing light.


Bud

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post #25 of 80 Old 12-07-2012, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

That attempt at making such a comment and then "leaving it at that" doesn't float...wash, or hold fast.
You can leave it at the point where you completely mistaken.
You, and some very few others who share your mind think might have attempted to convince others of that, but you all are running contrary to the proven results and experiences of many hundreds of prior members who can attest differently. That you do not want to delve into such DIY projects is your choice, but please do not try to dismiss that viable option and choice that others can benefit from by the weight of your own opinion.
I have made it an express effort to repeatedly show Screen apps that no other advocate of "Simple One Can Paint" solutions have ever even attempted....and at screen sizes and with PJ specs that would decry the possibility of such in the minds of those who either do not, or will not accept the premise that Contrast Enhancing Color and Gain can be combined to produce a superior image.
That's an indisputable fact that weighs in far more heavily than any off hand comment or opinion. You know of where you might find some who feel similarly, but not completely so, or they would not advocate their own "advanced" paint mixes. Why you seem to ignore that is puzzling. Or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewGate88 View Post

Just for the benefit of anyone besides the OP who might also read this, let me chime in with a little experience of my own with screen paint; everything from the simple to a Silver Fire 2.5 Light Fusion screen.
My experience backs up MM 100%.
My first screen was made by rolling slightly modified Sherwin Williams white on drywall for a Hughes G1000 projector, and I was tickled pink. After a while I decided to try grey, so I covered that with some Sherwin Williams grey, and I was more tickled pink.
After another while I wanted something better, so I rolled a Screen Goo CRT white screen(which means paint manufactured by Goo Systems) , which was significantly brighter, although I missed the perceived contrast boost of the grey screen.
At this point I added a projector (for the living room) which came with a Da-Lite Hi Power screen, very bright, terrible contrast. I actually liked a screen that I built a little later (as a test) using a frame and grey blackout vinyl shade material better. So I built another Screen Goo screen, this time it was what they called Ultra Grey. It was the best by far (to that point) for the living room and contrast enhancement. This screen saw a Panasonic AE700 and the current projector, a Mitsubishi HC4900 (about 6 years old).
After reading a lot about the Silver Fire and other paint mixes on this forum, I was finally moved to try something that appeared to be better. After some (self induced) trials and tribulation, I completed a 106" 2.35:1 Silver Fire 2.5 light fusion (paint sprayed on an acrylic mirror at a thickness that leaves it translucent, not ENTIRELY reflective) screen.
Every change to this point was at best an evolutionary, and incremental improvement. The improvement that I realized with the Silver Fire screen was not "incremental". It was immediately obvious, dramatic, and revelatory. The resulting image (in the same room, with the same projector) was dramatically better in every way. Better contrast, better whites, better blacks, better detail, better color saturation...................you get the "picture". The level of improvement from the Grey Screen Goo to the Silver Fire screen feels at least as great as all the other improvements put together.
In my opinion anyone who claims that Sherwin Williams "Unique Grey" or "Extra White" will perform as well as these custom paint mixes has never seen one of these screens in person, and/or is hopelessly biased for reasons known only to themselves. The results which are achievable are quite simply unmistakeable and indisputable.
If you have eyes to see with, that is.





Just like any DIY projects. There have been many that are extremely happy with a basic flat paint that is easily obtained off the shelf cheaply and rolled onto a wall or substrate. Results are amazing as one recently claimed on these forums.

Likewise, there have also been many reports that SF and other mixes here end up with satisfying results.

And in the same breath, there are also reports of dissapointments with any paints (rather it's a OTS paint or a FS mix).

The problem on these forums are that anyone looking for a paint screen is first and foremost pointed to one of these mixes, where a straight off the shelf paint would likely work for 95% of the DIYers.

For those chasing the last 5%, whether it's there or NOT, you can try these mixes and see for yourself if the desired results are there.

Let me repeat myself, these paint mixes have never been MEASURED. No data whatsoever to claim that it is sifnificantly better than an OTS paint. Screen caps are nothing but EYE CANDIES. No scientific facts can be concluded from screen caps.

Unlike projectors that were made 10 years ago, new technology are making new projectors with much better blacks and much greater contrast. Paint mixes that are design to 'supposedly' enhance black and contrast is quickly becoming ways of the old.

Shold me DATA, show me measurements and I'll believe you.

I am not against paint mixes, I have no agenda. I am not trying to sell a product.

I am simply advocating a DIY solution that is cheap, easy, quick and that works for the majority of the DIYers. If you feel adventereous and want to chase that last frontier at a much greater expesne. then 'go get it'.
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post #26 of 80 Old 12-07-2012, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

NewGate88
What a great post.
And you are 100% correct your eyes do not lie.
Have you thought deeper into the why of what you see and know to be truth? I think we all know that the screen no matter what type of material or paint is passive. We don’t plug the screen into a wall outlet and it collects data in the form of light and then amplifies the bright and darkens the surface needed to be black. It’s passive and reflects any and all light striking it in the same way coming from the projector. I think all will agree the screen can’t produce light and it can’t improve on the contrast ratio coming from the projector. Some here claim that CR can be improved and logic tells us that in order to do that the screen can no longer be passive. In fact that claim was made again in this thread.
So where is the improved contrast coming from? If you go to the manufacture Black Diamond and watch their video they have a projector blasting out a washed out image to a white screen and then roll down a BD screen to an amazing image full of CR. Clearly that screen is producing contrast not coming from the projector along with producing light.




Hmmm....so you telling me the paint doesn't produce light and increase contrast ratio of the projector?

Now I am confused!
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post #27 of 80 Old 12-07-2012, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Just like any DIY projects. There have been many that are extremely happy with a basic flat paint that is easily obtained off the shelf cheaply and rolled onto a wall or substrate. Results are amazing as one recently claimed on these forums.
Likewise, there have also been many reports that SF and other mixes here end up with satisfying results.
And in the same breath, there are also reports of dissapointments with any paints (rather it's a OTS paint or a FS mix).
The problem on these forums are that anyone looking for a paint screen is first and foremost pointed to one of these mixes, where a straight off the shelf paint would likely work for 95% of the DIYers.
For those chasing the last 5%, whether it's there or NOT, you can try these mixes and see for yourself if the desired results are there.
Let me repeat myself, these paint mixes have never been MEASURED. No data whatsoever to claim that it is sifnificantly better than an OTS paint. Screen caps are nothing but EYE CANDIES. No scientific facts can be concluded from screen caps.
Unlike projectors that were made 10 years ago, new technology are making new projectors with much better blacks and much greater contrast. Paint mixes that are design to 'supposedly' enhance black and contrast is quickly becoming ways of the old.
Shold me DATA, show me measurements and I'll believe you.
I am not against paint mixes, I have no agenda. I am not trying to sell a product.
I am simply advocating a DIY solution that is cheap, easy, quick and that works for the majority of the DIYers. If you feel adventereous and want to chase that last frontier at a much greater expesne. then 'go get it'.

No, I haven't "measured" anything.

I don't need to. As I posted, I have EXTENSIVE first hand experience with a wide variety of screens, DIY and manufactured, under fairly controlled conditions. Not for tests, but long term. I have lived with each and every screen I described (with the exception of my current screen, the Silver Fire) for more than a year each. I am not guessing, supposing, or looking at a meter and saying "see, these numbers say you have a better picture, never mind what your eyes tell you'. I have lived with these screens, in each case with some degree of satisfaction that gradually waned as I began to notice flaws after the "honeymoon period".

No too people are alike, or see things exactly the same (see custom paint jobs on cars for real world example of different aesthetic taste), but when I tell you that MY eyes see DRAMATIC (not the "last 5%), sweeping, improvement in the quality of the image produced by the same projector I have been using for SIX years IN THE SAME ROOM it is not a guess, or supposition. It is empirical DATA gathered by THE MOST RELEVANT test gear in the world (to me); my eyes and my brain.

I have done "cheap and easy", it will look "amazing" to the person who is engaged in his first foray into front projection (as it did to me), and for some people it my well be all they ever want.

Compared to what I achieved (my first time spraying) with Silver Fire however, it simply does not measure up. Nor is a screen crafted from one of the formulas here what I would call expensive. Even if one has to buy the sprayer for the project, it can still be done for less than $200 easily.

Compared to the time and trouble involved in crafting a new screen after growing dissatisfied with the first "cheap and easy" screen, that seems cheap to me.
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post #28 of 80 Old 12-07-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Hmmm....so you telling me the paint doesn't produce light and increase contrast ratio of the projector?
Now I am confused!


HaHa

I know it’s hard to believe but it does. I have been working on a device that the sun can shine on a screen surface and the surface will have a 4.0 gain and the light coming off will be 4 times as bright and will then hit photo cells and give me 4 times the power of just facing them at the sun. I was going to try a second screen to reflect back to the first but I was afraid of “melt down”.


Projectors are sold with these cooked up specs as to CR and they throw lumens in there also. They are making amazing progress and somewhat catching up with their claims. The eye can discern something like a million to one CR but not at the same instant and not without the iris changing. At any given instant the best it can do is something like 400 to 1. The old CRT projectors had amazing blacks and half million CR. But not the brightness to fight any kind of ambient light. I’m still running a light cannon DLP business machine with 2000:1 spec that maybe is 800:1 if I’m lucky, and supported by all the lumens and a dark screen. I’m perceiving deep blacks with the lights on.

There are lots of ways to skin an armadillo.

Oh ya I almost forgot red paint makes red light because it’s made from red matter.


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post #29 of 80 Old 12-07-2012, 07:44 AM
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Eyes, ears, and the brains are the poorest of measurement tools.

But I am glad you are happy with your SF screen.

I am looking forward to hearing back from you after the 'honeymoon' period is over.
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post #30 of 80 Old 12-07-2012, 11:11 AM
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Eyes, ears, and the brains are the poorest of measurement tools.
.

However...in the end, and concerning the End User, those items are all that matter.

And it's also been proven that basic mono-colored screens with no additional elements within their make-up / construction do not / cannot achieve anything but the most basic performance.

So others have used "Testing" to their advantage solely to attempt to give their own efforts more credence than others. They NEEDED to do so because the results as shown did not justify the obtrusive comments and disclaiming of the results of DIY efforts provided by other applications. And throughout it all, they choose to blatantly ignore all the very many postings of satisfied End Users who have moved beyond previous "basic" attempts, and instead try to exploit and give undue weight to the very few who have taken some issue, many times twisting the truth and ignoring obvious other reasons. . As a matter of fact, they do so knowing they cannot suffer rebuttal because the 'control' all postings, and woe to the Poster who differs with their opinions. They have repeatedly treated those with differing opinions like pariahs, dismissing any / everything positive they have to say.

You ask why we publish no tests? Primarily because it became a point of difference...to not kowtow to "demands" when this Forum was / has always been focused on the DIY'er and what he can / does accomplish. DIY'ers use their eyes and experience, not several thousand dollars worth of test equipment to judge their efforts. The entire drive for Testing didn't come about as being intended to be helpful, but as a outright attempt to try to disprove and eliminate certain DIY applications and their Advocates. It was used as a Club to assault people with. And a justification for making adverse comments. A very few members did do extensive Testing and direct example comparisons, and did so evenhandedly. But by and large it all centered around creating a contentious atmosphere. Add to that the fact that other, even more experienced and learned Members easily picked apart the methods and conclusions drawn by those trying their very best to dissuade others from even considering other popular DIY applications in favor of their own, as well as their use of totally misleading examples (reversed imagery rolleyes.gif) and the motive the advocates of "Testing" had for doing so becomes silly obvious. *

Bluntly put, to read such biased and intentionally misleading and denigrating content, one has to frequent a place where the Moderators / Members both have leave to post such tripe and encourage such. And they know it's contagious....because on the Internet, adversity and such always captures more attention.....and mimicry. It's called the "Lemming Effect"

And it continues....always. Exclamations of outright dismissal of worth and insulting references are made at every opportunity. None of that speaks of maintaining a balanced overview, or a level headed approach at helping others. References are made as to how I and others read posts on another site, as if such is to be construed as being bad, all the while not relating about how not only that sort of thing but the actual disingenuous and covert intrusion of false members onto this Forum with the express purpose to create controversy and discord was and still is commonly done.

This Forum exists as a place to help others. When anyone, yourself included, comes on to post exclamations that effectively dismiss the validity of everything else but what they / you want to consider as being worthwhile or effective, there will be a response to the contrary. You parroted a familiar and commonly used but wholly false assumption repeatedly stated elsewhere...that I only refer members to my own select applications. Nothing is further from the truth. Spandex / Flat Neutral Grays / Bright White Paints / just about any / everything that is a DIY application has been both mentioned and suggested by me to those whose situation and budget demanded such.

But don't even begin to expect me to favor a basic Gray or White over any singular or varied advanced applications proven by actual use over several years to be not just effective, but exemplary in performance. I have enough experience that i can...and do recommend what is best for people....not what I merely want then to use. Any suggestion to the contrary is a personal insult to my own knowledge and integrity. Just as advanced Mfg Screens like the Black Diamond and Silver Star and Super Nova all have their strong points, almost anyone who wants to can also easily point out their failings and issues as well. It is how that "pointing" is done and with what express intent...to be helpful and informative, or misleading and malicious that sets the person doing such posting up for their own judgement by others.

I / we will continue to keep things "simple" on AVS by simply doing everything / anything we can to help people realize their goals and do our very best to have their results exceed expectations. That seldom happens with a Flat Gray / White paint. But when those venerable applications are what needs to be considered, they too will get the mention they deserve.

Anyone who disagrees with that mandate is always welcome to NOT post...and if contentious and confrontational posting is their goal, they should be informed that they should exercise that desire elsewhere.

Disagree? No problem. Post such feelings in a courteous manner and all is as it should be. Attempt to belittle or create issues, get Threads locked or deleted, insult or create discomfiture for Members or their efforts to help others and it won't stand up against Forum Rules.

* BTW....in the past I repeatedly posted Threads that did extensive comparisons between advanced DIY Apps and basic Whites & Gray applications. The unbiased regaled over the posted results. Everyone who was against such deliberately interjected insulting comments, dismissive opinions, and did everything possible to disrupt the intent of the Threads involved and get them Closed. Sadly, at the time they started such antics, they were able to do so quite frequently. I say that with strong conviction because incredibly, that intent was voiced repeatedly. And you can point a finger to specifically just about 5-6 individuals who did so repeatedly. Those individuals left / had to leave this Forum because their efforts brought down condemnation and punishments especially when their adverse comments and accusations turned toward Forum Moderators and Owners. So let "THEM" read this....and remember that such actions in the past serve to make any effort to continue such elsewhere seem all the more obvious as far as motive and intent, and can only serve to belittle their own claims of doing so to help others.

In closing I must admit my own part in things, as being the staunch advocate of taking DIY to levels others never dreamed possible. That's my burden and I bear it with distinct pride. That it serves to make me apt to defend "ALL" of DIY screen making" as well as applications I personally feel are worthy of consideration isn't to my reasoning a justification for being ostracized. However I do regret my having to usually be the one most such adversity is directed to (...some know this all too well...and exploit it mercilessly...) and my own inclination to post defensive replies to such. Once again, that is my burden to bear...and I'm not always too happy that I feel obliged to do so.

fatestkid, I personally apologize for my responses contributing toward turning your thread into something you never intended.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
MississippiMan is online now  
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