Spraying Spandex for added Gain - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 12-06-2012, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been enjoying my new Epson 8700UB for a couple weeks now, but because of the way my room is set up there is no room right or left of the screen (door on one side, stairs on the other) so all 3 front speakers currently sit directly beneath the screen firing upward at an angle. While the sound is "good" I really want to get them up to ear level which for me would mean placing them behind the screen. And while the 8700UB has pretty good black level in THX mode, it's not as inky as I was hoping it would be firing onto a painted white wall in a completely blacked out room. What I REALLY want is an AT screen that will enhance my blacks while giving me a bit more punch up top (THX mode drops the lumens down considerably). I'm not willing to sell a kidney so that leaves me with a DIY option of either spandex or possibly another AT material like centerstage XD. I already have 3 yards each of white and silver moleskin sitting in my room. The question to the pros is can I paint the spandex with a siverfire or maxxmudd mix and if so would I need a backing layer or will a single layer of spandex do just fine. MM, BTW the protostar material will be arriving Monday. They have it pre-attached to polystyrene sheeting now so no need to do any adhering....just some velcro to hold the panels in place. Should help tremendously in absorbing stray light and making the image pop. TIA!
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post #2 of 30 Old 12-07-2012, 05:34 AM
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If you search the recent spandex posts you will find that MM recommended S-I-L-V-E-R as a paint option for spandex. To my knowledge no one has tried it yet but it is a very thin paint that should be dusted onto the moleskin silver layer without the white backing layer behind. After spraying the white layer is added behind. It sounds like it should work well and a lot of people would be interested if you are so motivated. I might get around to it myself, but probably not until after the holidays. If you didn't need the added gain, I think you would be happy with the silver over white. I have an Epson 8100 and that combination works well with it, even in eco mode.
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post #3 of 30 Old 12-07-2012, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Ya, I tried a very horribly crude test stapling a 1 foot strip of just the silver moleskin to the white wall...it wasn't completely stretched out, but the drop in white level was way too severe for my taste. Would stretching the silver make that much of a difference? I wonder what would happen if you sprayed the S-I-L-V-E-R over the white instead of the silver moleskin? I feel like my PJ is more lumen challenged than contrast challenged.
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post #4 of 30 Old 12-07-2012, 07:01 AM
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White over silver gives a brighter image. Silver over white helps with ambient light issues and perceived contrast. I went with the silver over white because I want to be able to watch football with some lights on and the contrast with the Epson 8100 can use a little help.
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post #5 of 30 Old 12-09-2012, 07:52 AM
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If I neglected to mention it, S-I-L-V-E-R should always be sprayed over a White substrate....never a darker one, as o0therwise it will most assuredly lose gain.For such an application, "White over White" would be best.

And also absolutely....stretch the spandex to the point where it would be if permanently mounted. Use no backing....and make sure air can flow freely through when "Dusting". Dusting should be done at the maximum speed (3' per second) and patience is a must because the build-up of paint layers must be very gradual so as to not plug up the Spandex weave, and put so much paint on top that the Spandex becomes a stiff / rigid sheet.

Leastwise, that's how I would go about it.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #6 of 30 Old 12-12-2012, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so I need to:

1. Stretch the white spandex over the frame
2. Dust it with 8+ coats of S-I-L-V-E-R
3. Remove it from the frame
4. Apply white spandex backing layer
5. Re-stretch top white spandex over frame/backing layer
6. Make popcorn and enjoy my favorite movies?

Seems simple enough, but I am curious what will happen to the paint when I remove the painted spandex from the frame. Will it crack or peel? Also, do you think MaxxMudd LL would give me better results for my application over S-I-L-V-E-R? Epson 8700UB projecting from 10' away on 106" screen set to THX mode (currently Normal, but hoping for Low light mode for lesser fan noise and deeper blacks).
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post #7 of 30 Old 12-13-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahajr143 View Post

White over silver gives a brighter image. Silver over white helps with ambient light issues and perceived contrast. I went with the silver over white because I want to be able to watch football with some lights on and the contrast with the Epson 8100 can use a little help.


That seems like a very dark screen. Are you running the 8100 in dynamic mode? What size is your screen?
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post #8 of 30 Old 12-13-2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mjovic View Post

Okay, so I need to:
1. Stretch the white spandex over the frame
2. Dust it with 8+ coats of S-I-L-V-E-R
3. Remove it from the frame
4. Apply white spandex backing layer
5. Re-stretch top white spandex over frame/backing layer
6. Make popcorn and enjoy my favorite movies?
Seems simple enough, but I am curious what will happen to the paint when I remove the painted spandex from the frame. Will it crack or peel? Also, do you think MaxxMudd LL would give me better results for my application over S-I-L-V-E-R? Epson 8700UB projecting from 10' away on 106" screen set to THX mode (currently Normal, but hoping for Low light mode for lesser fan noise and deeper blacks).



How would painting affect sound quality?

In my limited knowledge, I am not aware that sound can travel through paint.
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post #9 of 30 Old 12-13-2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

That seems like a very dark screen. Are you running the 8100 in dynamic mode? What size is your screen?


I have a completely light controlled room and I have a 120" diagonal 2.37:1 screen. I watch movies in the dark on Theater Black 1 setting in Eco mode. Watching football I have two side wall sconces on a dimmer at about half brightness and use Living Room setting, also in Eco mode.
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How would painting affect sound quality?
In my limited knowledge, I am not aware that sound can travel through paint.

The idea of using a very thin paint like S-I-L-V-E-R and duster coats is that the paint will cover the fiber strands of the spandex while not filling in the pores between the fibers. Something similar to dyeing the fabric. This maintains the acoustic transparency if done correctly.
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post #10 of 30 Old 12-13-2012, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

How would painting affect sound quality?
In my limited knowledge, I am not aware that sound can travel through paint.

Re-read my last post. The object is to Color Coat the Spandex material, not "Cover" it.

mjovic,
Although the Spandex may in fact be a little stiffer, it should still be pliable as well as not wholly recede to it's original shape/size.

It is after all a very "loose' watery mix, and should saturate the Spandex material after several applications. Being "absorbed" it should not suffer cracking....as long as you do not apply any more that what is required to effect the needed saturation.

This might be at a case of it not requiring as many as 8 coats. I'd suggest keeping a piece of White Spandex close at hand for visual reference as you go forward. When the material looks properly /evenly S-I-L-V-E-R colored, it is time to consider stopping.

Through it all a realization that you are in effect "Beta Testing" the concept of painting a different color/coat into Spandex should be maintained, and to err at all would be to err conservatively.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #11 of 30 Old 12-13-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahajr143 View Post


The idea of using a very thin paint like S-I-L-V-E-R and duster coats is that the paint will cover the fiber strands of the spandex while not filling in the pores between the fibers. Something similar to dyeing the fabric. This maintains the acoustic transparency if done correctly.

Golly Gee..... wink.gif

I could'a just kept to my Nap. tongue.gif

Thanks for the assist, ahajr!

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #12 of 30 Old 12-13-2012, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahajr143 View Post

The idea of using a very thin paint like S-I-L-V-E-R and duster coats is that the paint will cover the fiber strands of the spandex while not filling in the pores between the fibers. Something similar to dyeing the fabric. This maintains the acoustic transparency if done correctly.

How do you ensure that paint pigments won't cover the pores between the strands?

From what I can see with my stretched spandex, the pores are so tiny that it seems the paints might covered it.

Have you experimented with painting spandex? Did a before and after test to measure if it had any impact?
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post #13 of 30 Old 12-13-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

How do you ensure that paint pigments won't cover the pores between the strands?
From what I can see with my stretched spandex, the pores are so tiny that it seems the paints might covered it.
Have you experimented with painting spandex? Did a before and after test to measure if it had any impact?

He's (ahajr143)explaining the reasoning behind the idea /effort, not claiming he'd done it himself. And I stated to mjovic, that he would in effect be a "first Beta" tester,.

Besides that, unless your choosing to ignore my own post, it also explains the need to maintain a "flow through" air passage via tightly stretching the spandex to prevent any such tendency for clogging.

But just so you know, I have "Dusted" AT screens before to good effect, specifically SMX screens, and their porosity value (hole size) is pretty darn tight. I had no issues whatsoever applying thinned paint without plugging up holes. With Tightly" stretched 4-way spandex, the thin paint will be atomized with water as much as possible, and applied as sparsely as possible per coating. This will give it a "best chance" for success. Of course, being what it is, a weaved Fabric, it won't take much error to mess up. Then again, with proper care taken there isn't much of a chance it will fail either.

It is after all a attempt being taken by mjovic, for his possible benefit and that of potentially many others. Somebody has to....or not. Personally, I applaud the willingness to make the effort under less than a 100% assurance of success as some might demand. That's how 95% of all developments I've introduced got birthed. Risk taking with potentially great ideas is what DIY was originally based on, and in truth, it's what true creative DIY'ism is really all about. Something "ANYONE" should feel the ability to aspire to.

It's something to be encouraged, and so far the outlook for this experiment looks very promising. Simply put, it's a attempt to create a spandex surface more suitably reflective than any available at present.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #14 of 30 Old 12-13-2012, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Smokarz, I hear you and actually am not at all sure how it's going to turn out. Good chance I will fail on the first couple attempts.I am going to build a smaller 2x3' tester screen to try it out before potentially wasting a larger piece of spandex. As MM said I believe the key will be super thin paint applied in a very fine mist. Another thing that occured to me is that perhaps painting it unstretched might be an option since the holes only really appear when the fabric is stretched tightly. Worth a shot I guess.
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post #15 of 30 Old 12-14-2012, 06:25 AM
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Yup, I would certainly test it on a smaller piece and see how that comes out.

Looking forward to seeing your results.
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post #16 of 30 Old 12-28-2012, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, so I built the tester screen and mixed all the SilverFire v2.5 components, but I'll need someone to verify the color. It looks awfully purplish, not a neutral gray by any means. I added about 2.5-3 ounces of colorant and tried my very best to measure out exact amounts of each color first by measuring water into a small container, marking that line with a sharpie and then refilling the container with the acrylic paints. Is it supposed to have a visible hue once mixed? The videos MM posted definitely look more grayish. I don't want to go any further until I can verify the color or correct it somehow. To confirm, 50ml Napthol Crimson Red, 25ml Phthalocyanine Green, 16ml Ultramarine Blue, 9ml Cadium Yellow - Deep Hue.

Pics below:






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post #17 of 30 Old 12-28-2012, 07:08 AM
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are you sure you bought the correct Liquitex Bascis color (blue, red, green & yellow)?
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post #18 of 30 Old 12-28-2012, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I printed out the instructions and took them with me to the art store. I did however buy the MATT version since they didn't have all the colors in the regular version, but that shouldn't affect the color only the sheen. When all the colors were mixed together separate from the base and viscosity components it looked reddish brown, not sure what it is supposed to look like.
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post #19 of 30 Old 12-28-2012, 08:00 AM
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The Colorant having a Reddish / Brown hue denotes that a bit over overage in the "Red" component is present.

A Purplish hue that results when the Colorant is mixed into the Reflective base can be corrected. Let me go over some notes to get back with you asap, or PB-Maxx will do likewise.

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post #20 of 30 Old 12-28-2012, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I was thinking as I was adding the red that it seemed like more than 50ml as most of the tube of paint (which is 75ml) was being used, but it's just so darn hard to tell and it was right on the line of 50ml which I measured using the only thing I had (a cooking measuring cup). Actually all the colors seemed like I was adding too much as I was squirting them out. For example, the green should be 25ml which is 1/3 of the tube, but it felt like I was adding more than 1/3 to hit the line I measured (and double-checked). So, I attempted to correct it by adding a little more yellow and blue toward the end to get the line up to 100ml. I'm sure I screwed it up by doing that. For me, measuring out EXACT amounts of a thick acrylic paint that sticks to anything it touches was a difficult task. Not sure how you did it. Did you add water to the mix to help it pour? I'll wait to hear back from one of you guys on your thoughts on how to possibly fix this....I REALLY want to see if spraying the screen works, but I can't help but feel bummed out as I am about $100 in on paint at this point. I'd hate to have to re-do it. frown.gif

I'll post a pic of the brown colorant mix when I get back home.
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post #21 of 30 Old 12-28-2012, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a pic of the paint mixture and colorant in natural light.


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post #22 of 30 Old 12-28-2012, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought of a way to determine the exact amount of each color I used. I measured each tube on a digital food scale which is accurate to the gram. All I need to do now is measure a full tube (need to go buy one) and then I will know how much percentage-wise is left over...which will give me percent of each tube added. Once converted to milliliters I will know how off I am. I will post those numbers and then we can determine the appropriate amount of which color to add.
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post #23 of 30 Old 12-28-2012, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjovic View Post

I thought of a way to determine the exact amount of each color I used. I measured each tube on a digital food scale which is accurate to the gram. All I need to do now is measure a full tube (need to go buy one) and then I will know how much percentage-wise is left over...which will give me percent of each tube added. Once converted to milliliters I will know how off I am. I will post those numbers and then we can determine the appropriate amount of which color to add.

Guess again. I've spoken to the Mfg of Liquitex about the obvious variances in the amount of paint within their Tubes. It can vary over 10%, and that's is indeed enough to send you "over the line", especially with the Red or Green.

The "BEST" way is to draw up a carefully measured amount into a graduated Syringe, then dispense that amount into a small container (Shot Glass?) that has been either pre-weighed or "Zero'ed out" on the Scale. The just multiply / adjust the amount dispensed as needed.

ALSO..... make as much of the Colorant as your available paint will allow. larger measured amounts are easier to achieve accuracy with, and that also means that small errors are made to be all the more "smaller".

Me personally...I make colorant by the "Quart".

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #24 of 30 Old 12-28-2012, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Agree, MM. If I were to do it again, I would definitely do it the way you described. I am just trying to brainstorm a way to get me from where I am at to where I need to be and it's the only thing I can think of. What color is the colorant mixture supposed to be? Do you have any pics? Any suggestions on where to go from here? Thanks!
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post #25 of 30 Old 12-29-2012, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mjovic View Post

Agree, MM. If I were to do it again, I would definitely do it the way you described. I am just trying to brainstorm a way to get me from where I am at to where I need to be and it's the only thing I can think of. What color is the colorant mixture supposed to be? Do you have any pics? Any suggestions on where to go from here? Thanks!

With a "Matte" formula, the Colorant was a ultra Dark Gray. With the newest version, a Ultra Dark Brown....like the dirtiest Motor Oil you've ever seen.

Unless you are using the older Color Component mix-amounts with the "Matte" tints, even a carefully measured effort would push out to a brighter color..

I'll check back in my own archives to compare what is posted at present with the "old Timey" Matte version.

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post #26 of 30 Old 12-29-2012, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I used the measurements posted in the Silverfire v2.5 thread. 50ml Napthol Crimson Red, 25ml Phthalocyanine Green, 16ml Ultramarine Blue, 9ml Cadmium Yellow.

So today I decide to try to gather some data so we can have some frame of reference to correct this scientifically instead of just visually to the eye. The only method of gathering data to a level of precision I would need to affect the proper correction I could think of is weight. I used a food scale accurate to the gram (.035 oz.)

Here is how I went about it...MM please double-check my logic (and math!) on this.

Since there are variances in the amount of paint that come in each tube I bought 4 brand new MATT paint colors and measured their initial weights. They weighed in as follows:

105g, 107g, 104.5g, 103.5g
A variance of 3.5g over the average of 105g or about 3.3%. Not bad actually. Better than I expected.

The next step was to thoroughly clean out an empty tube and weigh it. The result was 13g.

So the weight of the paint inside each full tube is approximately 105g - 13g = 92g. This is an important number.

Knowing this I can calculate g/ml. Since an average of 75ml of paint come in each tube it works out to be 92g / 75ml = 1.23g/ml

I next measured the exact weights of the paint tubes I had left over and got the following:

Napthol Crimson Red - 42g
Phthalocyanine Green - 73g
Ultramarine Blue - 92g
Cadmium Yellow - 93g

Right away I could see my problem. The blue and yellow tubes were almost identical in weight and shouldn't be. I hadn't added enough blue. But let's get more exact.....

I subtracted the 13g for the weigh of the containers and ended up with the weight of the actual paint left over of each color as follows:

Napthol Crimson Red - 29g
Phthalocyanine Green - 60g
Ultramarine Blue - 79g
Cadmium Yellow - 80g

Since I know how much is left, a simple calculation will tell me what percentage of the original amount was used. I could then multiply that by 75ml (the total in the tube) to get the amount used in ml: (1 - (remaining/total)) * 75).

That gives the following amounts used in the mix:

Napthol Crimson Red - 51.36 ml (50 ml was specified)
Phthalocyanine Green - 26.09 ml (25 ml was specified)
Ultramarine Blue - 10.60 ml (16 ml was specified)
Cadmium Yellow - 9.78 ml (9 ml was specified)


So I can clearly see I am over in red, green and yellow and under in blue.

Using the yellow as a control I know I need to add a bit more of the red, green and blue to "catch them up" to the yellow to keep the mix proportionately accurate. The math here is simply taking the specified proportions of each color to yellow (e.g. blue is 1.78:1, green is 2.78:1 and red is 5.56:1 and then multiplying that multiplier to the 9.78 ml of yellow I already have in the mix. The result after subtracting the color already in the mix gives me the additional amount of each color needed:

Napthol Crimson Red - + 2.97 ml (3.64g)
Phthalocyanine Green - + 1.08 ml (1.33g)
Ultramarine Blue - + 6.79 ml (8.33g)
Cadmium Yellow - + 0.00 (this is the control)


So if I add this amount of paint to the full Silverfire mixture it should in theory neutralize the color shift. However, this is the amount needed to neutralize the full amount of original colorant I created (97.83 ml), but I didn't add all of it. I only added approximately 74 ml as I was aiming to create a Silverfire v2.5 2.5 mix. 74ml is 75.6% (74 ml / 51.36 ml + 26.09 ml + 10.60 ml + 9.78 ml) of the original batch of colorant created.

That means I need to add the same percentage of the additional corrective colorant to the final batch mix to keep their proportions equal and avoid over-correcting the mix. So that would be (2.97 ml + 1.08 ml + 6.79 ml) * .756 = 8.20 ml.

So the net result is I need to add 8.20 ml of this new corrective colorant in order to neutralize my entire batch of paint. By adding this additional 8.20 ml to the 74 ml of colorant already in the mix I end up with 82.20 ml of colorant or 2.78 oz. Since I was originally aiming for 2.5 oz of colorant, that's not too far off and will probably still be acceptable for my application.

MM or PB-Maxx please let me know if you concur with this approach (and my math is correct) and I will take the necessary next steps. Thanks.
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post #27 of 30 Old 12-30-2012, 06:57 AM
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Ow

So much math so late in the Year!

Maybe the apocalypse is just running a little late? eek.gif

In any case, Spock......your computations seem valid.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #28 of 30 Old 12-30-2012, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I just peed myself laughing.....yeah as I was typing it out I realized it sounded extremely technical. Ok I will give it a go! Wish me luck!!!
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post #29 of 30 Old 12-30-2012, 11:28 AM
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I just peed myself laughing.....yeah as I was typing it out I realized it sounded extremely technical. Ok I will give it a go! Wish me luck!!!

Here is the incremental corrections needed to nuetralize red/purple push.

Inrease green 1ml to 26ml.
Decrease blue 1ml to 15ml.
Increase yellow 3ml to 12ml.

Courtesy of PB-Maxx via my cattle prod. biggrin.gif

Compare the above against your solution and engage Warp Drive.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #30 of 30 Old 03-29-2013, 12:30 PM
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Any results or feedback with how the painting went?
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