What Is Going On In This Forum? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 12-11-2012, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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In the beginning, there was information, and it was good. Now it seems that people are coming on here not to impart information that may help someone learn something, but to "stomp" on someone's roses (I censored myself). There are those that really do care and try to help those of us that are new to screen building, but it seems there are more and more who are here solely to be pains in the @#$! I joined this and a couple of other forums to learn as much as I can before I start work on my "permanent" screen. While each forum has it's own jewels of information, one thing they all have in common is the same small group of people who for whatever reason feel the need to denigrate someone's efforts. Who is right, who is wrong? Hell, I don't know. I do know that when someone gives their time to try and help, I appreciate it. My current screen started life as a 98" piece of Parkland. Compared to the wall, it was great. I then built a 98" BOC screen. To my eyes, it was better than the Parkland. I found a sheet of Formica 949 matte white in my garage, so in the spirit of DIY, I built a 98" screen from it. It was much better than the BOC, ,but the blacks weren't quite black enough, so I rolled on a couple of coats of Behr SilverScreen. The screen looks great to me and to those who have seen it. I/we don't need a machine to tell us whether we like the picture or not. Is it the best possible picture I can get from my projector (Epson Powerlite 707 - 2700 lumens, 3000:1 in a room with light colored walls and a white ceiling) and a screen? Most likely not. But who is anyone here or anywhere else to tell me that I shouldn't like what I see because they don't like what I've used? I'm going to get down off my soapbox before someone kicks it out from under me. In closing, I really hope this Forum can get away from all the nastiness that is permeating it and get back to providing information. If you like it, use it, if not, don't. Either way, be respectful to each other, please!
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post #2 of 36 Old 12-11-2012, 02:02 PM
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Sadly, this is the only DIY area within AVS where you see this phenomena.

In here, you have people making claims of superior products without ever providing a single piece of evidence.

Most people wouldn't have a problem with someone saying: "Hey guys....I just painted a screen with X paint and it looks really good. Here's where you get the paint, maybe you can give it a try".

Within the spirit of DIY, people would truly appreciate that sharing of knowledge and people can decide to give me a try or not.

What many people DO HAVE issues with is: "Hey guys, I came up with a paint mix that beats everything in the market, it even bests $10k commercial screen. Here's how you make the paint. Or you can buy it directly from me for $$, or have me come paint it for you for $$$"

You see what's going on there? You made a claim that your product is superior to others (both DIY and commercial). With a statement like that, people will ask for data, measurements, proofs to support said claims. It is a given, and don't be offended when people started asking logical questions.

In contrast, just go take a look at the DIY Speakers/Subs forum. With each and every single design. The designer post enclosure drawings, cross over schematics, run sweeps, and take respone measurements. Each designs is then dissected and critiqued for the better of the DIY community and in an effort to help make the design better for everyone. With all this information available, the user can then make an informed and intelligent decision if he/she should build it or not. Ohh, and did I mentioned all this information is published for FREE? Now that is what DIY is about.

Many experienced contributors had left this DIY Screen forum, because folks here can't answer logical questions nor able to provide any data to support their claims.

The arguments, the heated exchanges became to redundant and frequent. Posts started getting deleted, people accusing each other of having agendas and motives. So, many people have left and continue their work at another place. Where logical things such as data and measurements are freely published to the DIY community, and nothing is being sold.
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post #3 of 36 Old 12-11-2012, 02:06 PM
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I have only been coming to this forum for 6 years and there have always been two types of people that frequent here. Those that come seeking advice and just want to build the best screen they can with their skills, time and money. There is another group that wants to advance the quest for better and different DIY screens and do things that they know others can copy and do. Of that group they are broken into two groups roughly, those that like the scientific approach to things and those that have a more hands on approach. The friction happens when the scientific half wants to help a newcomer by informing them of how the science works in reflecting light off a surface and in teaching and engaging in learning the scientific group feel they better serve the newcomer by them learning to fish rather than handing them a fish. If someone being scientific makes a claim that doesn’t stand the test of applied science and they are advised what they claim is imposable or are asked to explain why they think they are correct they try and understand. The hands on people tend to advise based around their vast base of experience and are not scientific and when questioned don’t deal with answering in a scientific nature because they just know better. Things are always smooth here when the dominate group is left to be in charge, and always chaos when anyone returns to try and participate. Five years ago there were 100’s of posts per day and ideas were flying around and lots of interesting science was being learned. The friction had all but a few leave, leaving a few in charge. I wasn’t around for a few years and in returning I see nothing has changed and the only advancement I have seen is the spandex stuff. And I see some are getting great results but I haven’t really seen any really good science into finding out how good it really is or how it works, that could lead to making it better. That’s kind of how it works here. I also don’t like the friction but it is what it is. confused.gif


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post #4 of 36 Old 12-11-2012, 03:24 PM
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Um, yeah, I've noticed this as well, even as a very casual observer. Seems like collective development doesn't much happen, as the "perfect" mix and methods have already been decided and are apparently, infallible.
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post #5 of 36 Old 12-13-2012, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Sadly, this is the only DIY area within AVS where you see this phenomena.
In here, you have people making claims of superior products without ever providing a single piece of evidence.
Most people wouldn't have a problem with someone saying: "Hey guys....I just painted a screen with X paint and it looks really good. Here's where you get the paint, maybe you can give it a try".
Within the spirit of DIY, people would truly appreciate that sharing of knowledge and people can decide to give me a try or not.
What many people DO HAVE issues with is: "Hey guys, I came up with a paint mix that beats everything in the market, it even bests $10k commercial screen. Here's how you make the paint. Or you can buy it directly from me for $$, or have me come paint it for you for $$$"
You see what's going on there? You made a claim that your product is superior to others (both DIY and commercial). With a statement like that, people will ask for data, measurements, proofs to support said claims. It is a given, and don't be offended when people started asking logical questions.
In contrast, just go take a look at the DIY Speakers/Subs forum. With each and every single design. The designer post enclosure drawings, cross over schematics, run sweeps, and take respone measurements. Each designs is then dissected and critiqued for the better of the DIY community and in an effort to help make the design better for everyone. With all this information available, the user can then make an informed and intelligent decision if he/she should build it or not. Ohh, and did I mentioned all this information is published for FREE? Now that is what DIY is about.
Many experienced contributors had left this DIY Screen forum, because folks here can't answer logical questions nor able to provide any data to support their claims.
The arguments, the heated exchanges became to redundant and frequent. Posts started getting deleted, people accusing each other of having agendas and motives. So, many people have left and continue their work at another place. Where logical things such as data and measurements are freely published to the DIY community, and nothing is being sold.

I totally agree with everything you just said, i to a'm starting to feel that there are people in this forum that are not only here to help others, but are also here to help their pockets$$. For that reason i just joined The theater shack and i really like what i see there.

I keep cumming back to see if things have changed, but the more it goes the more things are the same.

infocus 4805, mitsubishi hd1000, optoma hd 20 for one month, and now epson 8500ub
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post #6 of 36 Old 12-13-2012, 06:52 PM
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You know what really says everything here is that every single person who has responded to the OP's post has totally missed (...or intentioned ignored...) the fact that the OP is referring to those who have been criticizing the members efforts here, and who are stating that people who are claiming they like what they see in their DIY efforts cannot really be happy because they know otherwise. All it is is a repetition of the same type of negative tactics employed once before by a few here , and continuously practiced elsewhere.

And you bet, it's sad because this Forum is based upon consideration and cooperation, not the kind of rhetoric and whining about things that are wholly false and deliberately inferred so as to pass judgement on people and this Forum in general. Oblique postings that are still patently obvious in their meaning and unfounded accusations are still violations of Forum Rules. It seems that after a lull of 2 years, another assault is under way.

Post to help....be constructive.....or do not post at all. I'm not setting the rules...or laying down ultimatums, I'm plainly stating Forum rules.

Respect AVS and live within the boundaries of it's ideas and rules...as the Owners and Moderators dictate them, or leave. But don't come back onto AVS whining about things, and advertising about how much you like to frequent a rival Forum. Such actions would NEVER be allowed "there" and would suffer swift rebuke and immediate outright banishment, so to do so on this Forum also invites censor....or worse. Sauce for the Goose.

And .....don't disparage this Forum by stating about how "so many" have left. The total amount to less than two hands full of fingers , and AVS is still by far the most frequented and respected Forum on the Web.

Bar none.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #7 of 36 Old 12-13-2012, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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MM got the gist of what I was saying. I have no issue with anyone here or at HTS, save those that are telling us newbies that what looks good to us really doesn't because it wasn't done "their way". Do I care if someone here doesn't like someone at another Forum or vice-versa? No! All I care is that someone can give me "DIY Do-Able Information", then leave it to me to decide what approach to take without talking to me like I'm their 4 year old or reprimanding me for a choice I made. My original post had barely been up when Steele006 posted about the downfall of using "Silver Screen". At first read , it seemed that he was chastising those of us (me) that used that paint and it hit a bit of a nerve, and I have relatively thick skin. I think I got that from the first paragraph of his post. Upon reading it over again, I saw that he was giving his opinion of the paint itself and offering other options that he believes will work better. Did he disagree with someone here over the use of the paint? Yes. did he disrespect them? No. That is all I am looking for - a free flow of ideas, both pro & con that will give me the information to make the best decision I can. The beauty of DIY is that if I am not happy with my decision, I can try something else. It should be as simple as that.
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post #8 of 36 Old 12-13-2012, 07:49 PM
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OP, I don't think people are saying you can't like what you like. But I think there are some people who might suggest that, if you like properties x y and z of one screen, you might ultimately be even more happy with a different screen that also has those properties possibly to a greater degree, or has those properties plus other benefits, or some of those properties without some of the drawbacks. That kind of thing. It's not really practical for all of us to know how every paint, mix, and fabric performs relative to one another, much less try them all firsthand, so those who DO have first-hand experience with one or more should be sharing their experience IMO.

I for one appreciate as much info and comparison as possible. So that we each don't have to repeat all the trial and error that's gone before, it's nice to have as good an idea as possible of how these various solutions compare to each other. For example, I'd have loved to have had some good accurate comparison pics of a simple ANSI checkerboard or grey ramp on your Formica vs your BOC vs your Parkland, or maybe even something as simple as ftL readings on a white screen and a black screen with the EyeOne that many/most of us have.
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post #9 of 36 Old 12-13-2012, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Before this forum, I had never had never heard of an Ansi checkerboard, grey ramp or ftL readings. Like most other newbs, I bought an old projector and shot it on a wall. Actually, it was an outdoor wall. I built a small (by outdoor standards) rear projection screen to watch movies by the pool. When we moved to this house, we had an "extra" living area that the wife said could be used for an indoor projector. Thus, my odyssey began. Googled "DIY projector screen" and page after page of ideas. The one constant in those pages was the referencing of this forum. I began to read, then needed to ask questions, so I joined. I've learned a lot (mainly that I have a lot more to learn) and the process has been fun. When it comes to the "building" part of the process, I've got skills. When it comes to the "finish" part - the correct paint choice for my situation, I have none. I'm fortunate in the fact that most of the paint solutions here are inexpensive, that I have the tools to do what is needed to produce a screen and time to do it. It will be some time before my room becomes a dedicated HT room, so I want to put the best picture on my screen that my projector and environment will allow. Silver Screen on the Formica works for me now, but if a couple hundred dollars for a different substrate (fresh and unpainted) and some type of paint, be it one part or a mix will give me Holy Crap! instead of "looks good to me", I'm all for it. I want to to learn what works best, work out the kinks and be ready when the time comes to produce the best quality product I can.
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post #10 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

You know what really says everything here is that every single person who has responded to the OP's post has totally missed (...or intentioned ignored...) the fact that the OP is referring to those who have been criticizing the members efforts here, and who are stating that people who are claiming they like what they see in their DIY efforts cannot really be happy because they know otherwise. All it is is a repetition of the same type of negative tactics employed once before by a few here , and continuously practiced elsewhere.
And you bet, it's sad because this Forum is based upon consideration and cooperation, not the kind of rhetoric and whining about things that are wholly false and deliberately inferred so as to pass judgement on people and this Forum in general. Oblique postings that are still patently obvious in their meaning and unfounded accusations are still violations of Forum Rules. It seems that after a lull of 2 years, another assault is under way.
Post to help....be constructive.....or do not post at all. I'm not setting the rules...or laying down ultimatums, I'm plainly stating Forum rules.
Respect AVS and live within the boundaries of it's ideas and rules...as the Owners and Moderators dictate them, or leave. But don't come back onto AVS whining about things, and advertising about how much you like to frequent a rival Forum. Such actions would NEVER be allowed "there" and would suffer swift rebuke and immediate outright banishment, so to do so on this Forum also invites censor....or worse. Sauce for the Goose.
And .....don't disparage this Forum by stating about how "so many" have left. The total amount to less than two hands full of fingers , and AVS is still by far the most frequented and respected Forum on the Web.
Bar none.


This is a 'SCIENCE' forum is it not? What's wrong with asking scientifically related qustions? If you can't answer them, just say so. There's nothing wrong with that.


"and AVS is still by far the most frequented and respected Forum on the Web. Bar none"

This again? Please get the fact straight. Traffic to AVS is driven MAINLY by threads in the DIY Speakers/Subs, Hometheater Builds, etc. 'DIY Screen' is a very tiny fraction of the overall AVS activities. In another word, it's INSIGNIFICANT in driving traffic to AVS.
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post #11 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 09:23 AM
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It seems this won't go away until enough is said to put things in their proper place and perception.

Your response reflects your own bias and willful misinterpretation of almost anything you read.

Nothing in my post alluded to science not being welcome....and I'm sure that after the continued non-response you should be aware that the requests (...and demands...) for extensive tests are not being acted upon, and the choice not to do so does not need any further explanation, so if you and others continue to use all that as a whip to flail about with, it's because you yourselves want to do so simply to be able to continue posting aversive comments.

But you seem to want to have this repeated even though you have had it personally related to you before. The Owners themselves do not want the acrimony or adversity that would come from the tit for tat resulting from a "Testing War". We have been instructed in no uncertain terms to IGNORE the requests, and let this DIY Forum subsist on the member's own choices and experiences to validate the chosen DIY applications. In that way, if someone behaves badly and insults or demeans someone, action will swiftly follow. Neither I nor anyone else with any common sense is going to play into the sort of baiting going on by those who do in fact know why we are restricted in our actions and responses. So don't ask again or you will be guilty of posting to intentionally bait for a response, and that is also a violation of Forum rules.

Another intentional misrepresentation of my remarks by you....It was never stated that the DIY Screen Forum was solely responsible for AVS's success. That is simply your own comment made to help you whip up some more to rail about. It's obvious why you continue to do so. Others have come back from "beyond' to express the party line they read elsewhere. Your simply one other of the very few...the VERY FEW who have decided to do so.

But since your obviously ignorant of the past, know this. The individuals whose rhetoric and bad behavior that led them / forced them to go where they could exercise their opinions unchecked did in fact sully and bring down the reputation of AVS on a world wide basis. The Web was littered with commentary condemning them all...every one, and yet no where could you find anything but a lament about how I personally was being prevented from helping others, and how the attempt to exclude me in every way possible in DIY was being propagated by those individuals. Haters are gonna hate, and keep on hating because they become inured to such. It's a damn shame that the nature of the Internet is that it can encourage people who do not know the width and breadth of others motives to accept negative commentary before they will accept anything positive. sadly, that is because those with axes to grind or motives to support always work harder at trying to collect / convince others to cozy up to their causes and ways of thinking.

As you obviously do not realize, the DIY Screen Forum on AVS gets a great many views per day, and interest in DIY Screen making is in fact very disproportionate to the number of actual posters. And the assault to demean the entire AVS Forum continues today by those who would like to try to benefit from such. If you choose to ignore that, then your not they kind of member that AVS needs or wants.

Find something constructive to post about instead of trying to fuel arguments, or go on back to those whose ideas and concepts of what DIY'ism parallels your own.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #12 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 10:46 AM
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I would think most people here have completed kindergarten.

Armed with enough facts and data, people are more than capable of making intelligent decisions for themselves.

Unfortunately, a very few here always do their best to NEVER provide any facts/data behind their ludicrous claims and make it their priority to quickly dismissed any facts/data presented. WHY?

If so are you fond of 'science', please show us some science, data, and measurements behind why your paint mixes produced higher contrast, whiter than whites, and blacker than blacks.

Until you can do so, please stop making unfounded accusations and claims.

Enough said. This always circle back to the same spot. No wonder why people just got tired and left.
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post #13 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 10:55 AM
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This is a 'SCIENCE' forum is it not? What's wrong with asking scientifically related qustions? If you can't answer them, just say so. There's nothing wrong with that.

I can't recall which thread it was, but I believe MM stated that he, like many other users use their eyes as a judgement on the quality of the picture. MM has done extensive testing of different paint materials to come up with something to help the DIY community and many have been very happy with his work. I myself made up one of the older concoctions but screwed it up (rolled instead of spray) and you could see the roller marks. Next I used a mix put forth by forum member Tiddler (haven't seen him lately...) and that was my screen for a long time. Now with this whole spandex thing seeming to be all the rage I wanted to give it a try. It has vastly improved the sound quality of my setup and I really like the picture. Many others have done this and also are very happy with the picture.

However there are some, like me, who aren't content with just a "nice picture". I want to know that it faithfully matches what the director wanted me to see. Therefore, I don't feel that Smokarz is being aversive by wanting to use science to test DIY screens. Like MM, it would be an opportunity to constantly tweak a painted/spandex/BOC/Sintra screen in order to come up with the best results, albeit scientifically. MM, I don't think Smokarz is out to disprove all the hard work you've done. And it wouldn't be about a "testing war". You yourself have had numerous "testing wars" with your own various iterations of screen paints and have come up with what you feel is the best solution. What smokarz is talking about is the same thing, save for wanting to use equipment to do it. And it would be done to help the community, like your work has already done. My 0.02 and I'm out of this thread.

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post #14 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 12:50 PM
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Speaking of testing, I need to get REW setup so I can measure the acoustic properties of my new spandex screen.

Sadly, I don't have 'perfect ears' that could tell me that I am loosing 1.5db from 1.5k to 10k.
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post #15 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 12:56 PM
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Smokarz,

Chillax. That is the kind of intentional sarcasm that will get you banned. Just do your thing to help out - it's already clear where you stand. wink.gif

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post #16 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I would think most people here have completed kindergarten.

Armed with enough facts and data, people are more than capable of making intelligent decisions for themselves.

Unfortunately, a very few here always do their best to NEVER provide any facts/data behind their ludicrous claims and make it their priority to quickly dismissed any facts/data presented. WHY?

If so are you fond of 'science', please show us some science, data, and measurements behind why your paint mixes produced higher contrast, whiter than whites, and blacker than blacks.

Until you can do so, please stop making unfounded accusations and claims.

Enough said. This always circle back to the same spot. No wonder why people just got tired and left.

Remember that opinions are not fact...
If you don't believe on what has been presented here, plain and simple "is your choice". You, sir are the one making a claim... if you want to present a fact of disproving something... YOU can take the scientific measurements to prove YOUR claim... otherwise is simple YOUR opinion as is mine.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

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post #17 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by blastermaster View Post

Smokarz,
Chillax. That is the kind of intentional sarcasm that will get you banned. Just do your thing to help out - it's already clear where you stand. wink.gif


You got it.
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post #18 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by superleo View Post

Remember that opinions are not fact...
If you don't believe on what has been presented here, plain and simple "is your choice". You, sir are the one making a claim... if you want to present a fact of disproving something... YOU can take the scientific measurements to prove YOUR claim... otherwise is simple YOUR opinion as is mine.


Hmmm...perhaps I am missing something here.

Can you remind me where I've made a claim without providing facts to support said claim, or at the very least didn't make it clear that it was just an opinon?
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post #19 of 36 Old 12-14-2012, 10:29 PM
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I think the most important thing to remember is to have fun and watch what you like. I'm a big believer in the scientific method of analyzing screens, but some aren't. For instance, when I'm listening to music, I love total accuracy. I've spent a lot of money with equipment and a lot of time doing analysis to get the most accurate reproduction of music. As soon as I put in an action flick all that goes out the window. LFE goes up well above what the director intended. Why? I like the house to shake when a bomb goes off. I like to feel the vibration of a helicoptor's rotor blades. It's what I like and I don't care that it's not accurate.

At the end of the day these are just movie screens that can be painted over in a day. As long as everyone is having fun and learning, life is good.

I don't mean offense to anyone. I understand the OP's point and I understand the reaction. I really like everyone involved and think you're all good people--both sides.

I think it's great when someone goes to the effort to analyze and post results. There's a lot of effort involved in doing that. I understand when someone doesn't want to do that. Readers can make up their own mind whether they prefer fully analyzed paints or follow someone's subjective advice. If somebody doesn't want to do all the work involved in measured analysis, they really shouldn't have too. If somebody wants to go to all the effort of analyzing a paint and writing up the results, that's a great contribution to the community.

I'm not throwing stones here at anybody, I'm far from without sin on this subject! Somebody slammed me for not posting all of my data on the Glidden paint and boy did I let loose on that psycho, Oops I mean poster! smile.gif See? It's easy to get personally involved. It'd be more fun if we could all get together for a beer once or twice a year. Puts a face to a faceless internet post. But it'd have to be here in Portland, 'cause we have the best beer in the world, and THAT is scientific fact. I've put considerable effort into that analysis!

If any of this sounds weird or seems offensive, it's 'cause I had knee surgery today and am on massive painkillers. tongue.gif


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post #20 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 08:49 AM
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...At the end of the day these are just movie screens that can be painted over in a day. As long as everyone is having fun and learning, life is good... Readers can make up their own mind whether they prefer fully analyzed paints or follow someone's subjective advice.

Well put, Kirnak. And if this isn't clear enough, here's some guidelines for members to ponder before they post:

No one is required to post data to support their claims. While the term "science" is in the Forum name, our perception of what we see and hear is ultimately subjective, and cannot be reduced to numbers. If I prefer a certain screen, all the "scientific measurements" in the world are not going to prove me wrong or change my mind.

Ask yourself "Why am I posting this?" If your motive is to provide positive, useful input on a specific topic, post away. If your motive is to "save" someone from trying a screen that has no "scientifically measured specifications", please leave. If your motive is making an offhand jab at a member you don't like under the guise of "helping" a new member, leave and don't return.

And above all, keep it kind. As Kirnak said, these are just screens. This is for fun; it's not a battle to the death! biggrin.gif

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post #21 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 09:10 AM
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wow. now that's some awesome advice. amen.
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post #22 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 11:54 AM
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"If your motive is to "save" someone from trying a screen that has no "scientifically measured specifications", please leave. "

What if someone recommends a screen that you have reason to believe -- i.e. firsthand experience -- does not perform as promised, or that you have reason to believe is inferior to another?
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post #23 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 01:14 PM
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Well put, Kirnak. And if this isn't clear enough, here's some guidelines for members to ponder before they post:
No one is required to post data to support their claims. While the term "science" is in the Forum name, our perception of what we see and hear is ultimately subjective, and cannot be reduced to numbers. If I prefer a certain screen, all the "scientific measurements" in the world are not going to prove me wrong or change my mind.
Ask yourself "Why am I posting this?" If your motive is to provide positive, useful input on a specific topic, post away. If your motive is to "save" someone from trying a screen that has no "scientifically measured specifications", please leave. If your motive is making an offhand jab at a member you don't like under the guise of "helping" a new member, leave and don't return.
And above all, keep it kind. As Kirnak said, these are just screens. This is for fun; it's not a battle to the death! biggrin.gif
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(1) No one is required to post data to support their claims


Wouldn't you call those claims bogus? Saying your screen looks really nice (no hot spotting, nice deep blacks, very bright whites, etc.) Many people would have no issues with that. But saying something like my screen completely rocked a $2k manufactured screen or an OTS paint is far inferior to my paint, then it would be fair for people to ask to see a little more behind such bold statements.

(2) If I prefer a certain screen, all the "scientific measurements" in the world are not going to prove me wrong or change my mind.

Agreed, your preference takes precedent. No "out of this world" measurements can hold a candle to it. However, when you make a comparison - measurements are a very valuable as a point of reference.

(3) Ask yourself "Why am I posting this?" If your motive is to provide positive, useful input on a specific topic, post away.


I see nothing wrong with suggesting an OTS paint to a member. A solution that left many members satisfied while keeping cost low with less mess to deal with. Looks like an excellent DIY option to me.
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post #24 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 01:26 PM
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(1) No one is required to post data to support their claims

Wouldn't you call those claims bogus? Saying your screen looks really nice (no hot spotting, nice deep blacks, very bright whites, etc.) Many people would have no issues with that. But saying something like my screen completely rocked a $2k manufactured screen or an OTS paint is far inferior to my paint, then it would be fair for people to ask to see a little more behind such bold statements.

The situation revolves what "you" expect / demand, as opposed to what is subjective (...and acceptable...) to the vast majority.

One person or a few trying to make issue and hold precedent as to what constitutes a valid approach toward "anyone / everyone else" presenting something, while the majority both accepts and appreciates what is provided, and actually does in fact benefit from it.

A simple advisory suggestion....


..............don't spit into the wind.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #25 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by curttard View Post

"If your motive is to "save" someone from trying a screen that has no "scientifically measured specifications", please leave. "
What if someone recommends a screen that you have reason to believe -- i.e. firsthand experience -- does not perform as promised, or that you have reason to believe is inferior to another?

One can voice displeasure or ask for an explanation without outright dismissing or denigrating an application based solely on his own experience. If and when anything like a groundswell of discontent should develop, then it's well within the sense and sensibilities of the "majority' of Members frequenting this Forum to make their minds up based on what is being posted. That's how all the other Forums work.

Here, on the weight of there being less to look / consider overall, and because of previous efforts and attempts to stifle / stymie popular applications by virtue of making demands and then using the non-response as further justification for more and concerted efforts, a very detrimental downwardly mobile spiral is created.

For some, this would come as a distinct advantage. rolleyes.gif.
But for the "Majority" is just a damn shame and a waste of resources.

Bluntly put, there is no possible excuse for poor behavior, as it just tends to generate more. And poor behavior can be construed as harping on a subject already determined to be "over with".

And that definitely qualifies as intentionally "spitting onto the Wind."

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #26 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

The situation revolves what "you" expect / demand, as opposed to what is subjective (...and acceptable...) to the vast majority.
One person or a few trying to make issue and hold precedent as to what constitutes a valid approach toward "anyone / everyone else" presenting something, while the majority both accepts and appreciates what is provided, and actually does in fact benefit from it.
A simple advisory suggestion....
..............don't spit into the wind.



Agreeed. Especially when it's blowing against you.

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post #27 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 01:50 PM
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One can voice displeasure or ask for an explanation without outright dismissing or denigrating an application based solely on his own experience. If and when anything like a groundswell of discontent should develop, then it's well within the sense and sensibilities of the "majority' of Members frequenting this Forum to make their minds up based on what is being posted. That's how all the other Forums work.
Here, on the weight of there being less to look / consider overall, and because of previous efforts and attempts to stifle / stymie popular applications by virtue of making demands and then using the non-response as further justification for more and concerted efforts, a very detrimental downwardly mobile spiral is created.
For some, this would come as a distinct advantage. rolleyes.gif.
But for the "Majority" is just a damn shame and a waste of resources.
Bluntly put, there is no possible excuse for poor behavior, as it just tends to generate more. And poor behavior can be construed as harping on a subject already determined to be "over with".
And that definitely qualifies as intentionally "spitting onto the Wind."



So one can voice his displeasure, but then his voice has no validity because it was based on his own personal experience? Hmmm....
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post #28 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 02:25 PM
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So one can voice his displeasure, but then his voice has no validity because it was based on his own personal experience? Hmmm....

Now your "twisting" in the wind.

Where is it stated "his' opinion has no validity? That sort of intentional misconstruing is a very feckless way to keep some attention going. It was stated that his opinion...anyone's opinion can be voiced...and heard. But deserves to be and will be dismissed if it is offered up in the wrong manner or with the wrong intent. There is no basis for saying that the opinions that most DIY'ers...and myself do not carry value and substance. Some more than others, yes, but all have the right to voice them.

..........................................according to and in compliance with Forum Rules & Decorum.

There is a difference between how some present their remarks and how others go about it. It's called courtesy....or the lack thereof. And if one does not get the response they ask for, and the "one" is in a distinct minority, his opinion can still carry weight....as long as he doesn't shoot his foot full of holes by being distinctly discourteous.

Then again, some have no feet left to stand on at all, yet they continue to waste bullets shooting into thin air. Habits are hard to break...but bad habits need to be broken.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #29 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 05:18 PM
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(1) No one is required to post data to support their claims

Wouldn't you call those claims bogus? Saying your screen looks really nice (no hot spotting, nice deep blacks, very bright whites, etc.) Many people would have no issues with that. But saying something like my screen completely rocked a $2k manufactured screen or an OTS paint is far inferior to my paint, then it would be fair for people to ask to see a little more behind such bold statements.

No, I wouldn't call such claims "bogus". I would take them as someone's subjective opinion, and use my own judgement when deciding what screen to use. And I definitely wouldn't insult the intelligence of others by suggesting they aren't smart enough to do the same.

If certain specifications and measurements are your personal criteria for a good screen, by all means make your choice based on them alone. If you prefer to make a screen choice based on what you think looks good, that's great too. But above all, express your opinions and "facts" here in a civil manner, and respect other members.

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post #30 of 36 Old 12-15-2012, 07:37 PM
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"I would take them as someone's subjective opinion, and use my own judgement when deciding what screen to use."

What do you apply that judgement to if you don't want measurements or recommendations of a different screen?
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