Hd quality detail in a solid surface? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 9 Old 01-07-2013, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm very curious to know, why i would be getting so much more detail and sharpness comming from a painted solid surface vs a screen fabric.I put up my older Da lite hccv screen, against my newly painted screen and the difference in sharpness is big. Even my 13 year old daughter who doesn't know much about home theater asked my why my Dalite was blurry.It's as if i'm seeing the fabric, but i dont feel that i am. It just dull in comparison.

Is a brand new sheet rock surface whether painted grey or white a much better hd screen when it comes to detail and sharpness, or was my 7 year old Da lite screen outdated by newer better hd screen fabrics.

Thanks

infocus 4805, mitsubishi hd1000, optoma hd 20 for one month, and now epson 8500ub
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post #2 of 9 Old 01-07-2013, 06:57 AM
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As a rule, any surface that has no visible texture of any type, and whose coating is applied with a like care will show a better image than most any Mfg screen surface. That is the real secret, and great truth about DIY screen making.

And it's a "Old Truth". Such care when taken has resulted in a great many DIY'ers having "Suspender Poppin' Rights" over their Peers who own much more expensive Mfg Screens.

And such ultra smooth, featureless surfaces also help almost any paint perform up to it's fullest measure. Even paints that out of necessity contain metallic content will show better when there is no texture to accentuate shadow differences.

Bluntly put, any Screen Mfg who has the ability to create perfectly smooth surfaces must also have perfectly matched coatings on them. When those two features come together, it usually means exemplary performance.......................

.....................and a price tag that should belong on a good used Car. rolleyes.gif

Hence the real value inherent in anyone taking the effort to create as perfect a surface as possible. Also it's the reason why with the few and necessary exceptions, it's usually not the case where Fabric / BOC screens are the first choice to suggest to any aspiring DIY Screen maker.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #3 of 9 Old 01-08-2013, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

As a rule, any surface that has no visible texture of any type, and whose coating is applied with a like care will show a better image than most any Mfg screen surface. That is the real secret, and great truth about DIY screen making.
And it's a "Old Truth". Such care when taken has resulted in a great many DIY'ers having "Suspender Poppin' Rights" over their Peers who own much more expensive Mfg Screens.
And such ultra smooth, featureless surfaces also help almost any paint perform up to it's fullest measure. Even paints that out of necessity contain metallic content will show better when there is no texture to accentuate shadow differences.
Bluntly put, any Screen Mfg who has the ability to create perfectly smooth surfaces must also have perfectly matched coatings on them. When those two features come together, it usually means exemplary performance.......................
.....................and a price tag that should belong on a good used Car. rolleyes.gif
Hence the real value inherent in anyone taking the effort to create as perfect a surface as possible. Also it's the reason why with the few and necessary exceptions, it's usually not the case where Fabric / BOC screens are the first choice to suggest to any aspiring DIY Screen maker.

Do you think that there is any chance that it is the white paint that sharpens up the picture so much like I am claiming?

Will the picture be just as sharp if I were to use the same sw paint in a shade of n9 or maybe even n8?

Can it be the sheen that brings out such highlights witch in turn, feel like it's razor sharp.

infocus 4805, mitsubishi hd1000, optoma hd 20 for one month, and now epson 8500ub
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post #4 of 9 Old 01-09-2013, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by tank01 View Post

Do you think that there is any chance that it is the white paint that sharpens up the picture so much like I am claiming?
Will the picture be just as sharp if I were to use the same sw paint in a shade of n9 or maybe even n8?
Can it be the sheen that brings out such highlights witch in turn, feel like it's razor sharp.

It's the Projectors Resolution & Focal ability, it's brightness, combined with a smooth surface that gives you a sharp image. But just the same, if you improve the depth of your Blacks, and Shadow detail, by using an appropriate shade of Gray, your image dynamics will really improve. Colors will appear more saturated and richer, while Blacks appear more...well, Blacker. Those things make Whites look brighter...even if in fact they take a small hit in overall brightness.

The reason is that the bulk of any projected image is NOT white, so if the darker areas do get shifted down, the lighter areas tend to jump out at you.

However.....and this is where a few refuse to accept proven facts....if a standard Gray that comes in at under 1.0 gain is used, it WILL NOT NOR EVER produce as satisfying a differential between the dark and light elements of an image as would a surface that at least maintains 1.0 gain. No matter what else your told, that has been proven to be the case so many times it's almost comical to see it refuted. Almost. In fact it's really sad how many can be misled and go wanting for the performance they hope to achieve.

Sheen to any degree beyond the very slightest amount will cause adverse glare, which results in Blooming (in the least) and Hot Spotting (..at worst)

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #5 of 9 Old 01-09-2013, 10:47 PM
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if a standard Gray that comes in at under 1.0 gain is used, it WILL NOT NOR EVER produce as satisfying a differential between the dark and light elements of an image as would a surface that at least maintains 1.0 gain.

Doesn't the gain apply to the dark elements of the image equally to the light, lightening the darks to the exact same degree it lightens the lights? If not, why not?
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post #6 of 9 Old 01-10-2013, 06:02 AM
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Gain has to do with the amount of light reflected by a screen compared to a white reference standard. Greater than 1.0 means the reflectivity of the screen is higher than the reference. A gain of less than 1.0 reflects less light than the reference standard. Black is the absence of light and white is the presence of all colors of light. When you have a gain of greater than 1.0 the amount of light reflected is greater for white and all colors but black, since it is the absence of light, has nothing to reflect. Therefore the difference in light between black and white is increased leading to the increase in contrast and the colors "popping".
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post #7 of 9 Old 01-10-2013, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Doesn't the gain apply to the dark elements of the image equally to the light, lightening the darks to the exact same degree it lightens the lights? If not, why not?

If one uses a Flat, Mono-colored surface, yes. But that is a very narrow view of only a specific aspect of gain.

If one has a surface that is sufficiently dark, yet contains elements that can collect and distribute just enough light to infuse the surrounding area with light, the end result is that the lighter elements retain a higher percentage of illumination than the darker areas correspondingly lose "black". The end result is a conservation of light, the retention of enough to in the least maintain a higher degree of Gain.

This should be very easy to grasp....it's a primary principle behind all the Mfg Ambient Light Screens, most all of which use either reflective particles or diffusive layers to collect and return light more on axis, and who use very dark substrates to also helpmaintain Black levels while doing so.

Despite what a few others might say, it's been done very effectively using metallic infused paint for quite a while now. Such is the reason that screen shots taken of such screens can show performance that simple Gray examples cannot unless the screen is very dark Gray, and inundated with excessive light...and that all too often winds up being counter-productive.

I have said many times that Gain in and of itself is not a valid answer for improving ambient light performance...even if it's centered around reducing reflections by directing light forward into center. And obviously that is accepted by those who must make Mfg Ambient Light Screens and charge an arm & leg for them as they all, everyone combine gain with a very dark surface.
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Originally Posted by ahajr143 View Post

Gain has to do with the amount of light reflected by a screen compared to a white reference standard. Greater than 1.0 means the reflectivity of the screen is higher than the reference. A gain of less than 1.0 reflects less light than the reference standard. Black is the absence of light and white is the presence of all colors of light. When you have a gain of greater than 1.0 the amount of light reflected is greater for white and all colors but black, since it is the absence of light, has nothing to reflect. Therefore the difference in light between black and white is increased leading to the increase in contrast and the colors "popping".

While all the above in quote is all essentially true, the one obvious commission is that Digital PJs actually project Black as a "reduction" of light, unlike CRT PJs that project Black as a absence of light. Therefore, Contrast can be grossly affected if too much gain is present. That is why some PJ Mfg utilize a variable Iris, that can reduce light when a darker scene is in play. The best PJs do it somewhat differently, using improved light isolation within the Light Engine to help the image as it exits from the Pj start out as "Contrasty" as possible.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #8 of 9 Old 01-10-2013, 10:15 AM
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If one has a surface that is sufficiently dark, yet contains elements that can collect and distribute just enough light to infuse the surrounding area with light, the end result is that the lighter elements retain a higher percentage of illumination than the darker areas correspondingly lose "black". The end result is a conservation of light, the retention of enough to in the least maintain a higher degree of Gain.

I'm still missing something. What is happening that causes say a 80% grey (a light) to be "boosted" more -- i.e. "return more light on axis" / "retain a higher degree of illumination" -- than a 30% grey (a "dark")? And at what point on the greyscale does this effect kick in?
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post #9 of 9 Old 01-10-2013, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

It's the Projectors Resolution & Focal ability, it's brightness, combined with a smooth surface that gives you a sharp image. But just the same, if you improve the depth of your Blacks, and Shadow detail, by using an appropriate shade of Gray, your image dynamics will really improve. Colors will appear more saturated and richer, while Blacks appear more...well, Blacker. Those things make Whites look brighter...even if in fact they take a small hit in overall brightness.

The reason is that the bulk of any projected image is NOT white, so if the darker areas do get shifted down, the lighter areas tend to jump out at you.

However.....and this is where a few refuse to accept proven facts....if a standard Gray that comes in at under 1.0 gain is used, it WILL NOT NOR EVER produce as satisfying a differential between the dark and light elements of an image as would a surface that at least maintains 1.0 gain. No matter what else your told, that has been proven to be the case so many times it's almost comical to see it refuted. Almost. In fact it's really sad how many can be misled and go wanting for the performance they hope to achieve.

Sheen to any degree beyond the very slightest amount will cause adverse glare, which results in Blooming (in the least) and Hot Spotting (..at worst)

I agree that brightness, focal ability is key with good contrast.

MM I'm getting what you're saying, and i have to agree that there is something about the picture of a grey screen that i do like. One thing that i noticed when i bought my epson 8500ub was that the picture was very bright, when it was new, except it really didn't take a long time, about 75 hours and i was able to notice a nice drop in brightness. The picture was still very nice but after the drop i tried zooming out to a bigger image of about 120" and the picture was really washed out and there was no way that i could have a screen of 120" and be happy with it. Now with this new white screen and 27% brighter picture i tried zooming out, and doing 120" is not a problem at all, the picture looks great. I think that if i wanted to do 120" or a little bigger, and i had the brightness of a epson 5020 then a grey screen would finally be the perfect match.

Were getting closer to the day where all projectors will be able to compensate for the 30% dimmer picture of a grey screen. When i asked around if i can do 120" with a epson 8500ub, the thing that i always here is that i'm pushing it if i pass 110". A ten foot wide 2.35 screen has something really spectacular about it, and there are allot of projector out there with the specs equal to my 8500 that would be able to light it up without a problem if they chose a white screen.

There will be a day where i'll go back to a grey screen, but the prices on the more powerful projector with good contrast have to come down.

infocus 4805, mitsubishi hd1000, optoma hd 20 for one month, and now epson 8500ub
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