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post #271 of 347 Old 08-02-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanoletzke View Post
Oh... and for 120" wide by 68" tall screen made of milliskin... how many yards is that? And do they sell milliskin in wider strips than 58"/60" ?

Thanks again!
You would need 4 yards.

You would be "stretching it"....literally speaking....trying to get a 72"-74" stretch out of a 58" wide piece of Spandex.
The 135: screen shown above required a 65" "face" after stretching, and I recall that I was worried my Staples would pull out or the Fabric's weave would distort. I really had to tug to make it work....for Spandex at least....and when really stretching Spandex that means you'll have to be all the more careful and precise making sure it is stretched evenly in all directions.

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post #272 of 347 Old 08-02-2014, 02:12 PM
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Maybe I am reading it wrong
Here is a pic of it. I am thinking 120" wide, so 138" diagonal...

Am I missing it?
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post #273 of 347 Old 08-02-2014, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanoletzke View Post
Maybe I am reading it wrong
Here is a pic of it. I am thinking 120" wide, so 138" diagonal...

Am I missing it?
You have the Gain set a 1.0, and that's not what you can expect. It would be much closer to 0.85 to 0.8

Makes all the difference.
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post #274 of 347 Old 08-02-2014, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
You have the Gain set a 1.0, and that's not what you can expect. It would be much closer to 0.85 to 0.8

Makes all the difference.
Ah... OK. What fL amount do I want? If I go white/white and if I go silver/white...
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post #275 of 347 Old 08-02-2014, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ryanoletzke View Post
Ah... OK. What fL amount do I want? If I go white/white and if I go silver/white...
Would it help if I reduce the screen size to 115" wide? that would be 65" tall I think. Better for stretch of milliskin and maybe better for fL (because I could get away with putting it closer to screen)
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post #276 of 347 Old 08-02-2014, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ryanoletzke View Post
Would it help if I reduce the screen size to 115" wide? that would be 65" tall I think. Better for stretch of milliskin and maybe better for fL (because I could get away with putting it closer to screen)
Absolutely. Look at my examples. Those were from a Panny 8000u at 16' on a White over Silver.

White on White will not work to improve Black levels any more than the basic reduction in gain allows. The Silver underlay will do far more....take my word for it this time.

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post #277 of 347 Old 08-02-2014, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Absolutely. Look at my examples. Those were from a Panny 8000u at 16' on a White over Silver.

White on White will not work to improve Black levels any more than the basic reduction in gain allows. The Silver underlay will do far more....take my word for it this time.

It's all gud, Bro.
I'm taking your word for it

I'm gonna do 110" wide by 62" tall (126 diagonal). Gonna go white milliskin over silver. This way the stretch of 58" milliskin isn't too hard. I don't "need" 120" wide, just knew it was the biggest I could go in my new room.

And gonna place the projector at 12'4". Predicting a screen gain of 0.7.

ProjectorCentral says fL will be at 15.

Thanks MM - I'm looking forward to "interstellar" blacks and a great picture with AT screen
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post #278 of 347 Old 08-03-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanoletzke View Post
Newbie here... Making home theater in new house, looking for any advice/expertise on DIY screen.

Here is the current plan and info:

Room: 16' deep by 19' wide, 9 foot ceilings. No windows.

Projector: EPSON 8350, throwing from 14'6" (current thoughts, have 15' as max throw potential)

Screen: Planning to make DIY style: 120" wide, AT screen, 16:9 screen, from Milliskin (took me a while to read this whole thread :-))

Speakers: Left and Right BIC FH-6T, Center BIC FH6 LCR, Sub JBL es250P, haven't bought surrounds yet.


According to projectorcentral.com I can throw from 14'6" to a 120" wide 1.0 gain screen and have a brightness of 15fL.

Do I want more brightness? Should I do white over white milliskin? Any thoughts will be helpful as I plan to build the screen in the next week or two...

Thanks!
I would go white over white (I think your Epson is going to give the blackness even with higher gain). I believe I would buy 6 yards total (3 for each layer) just to be sure. You might get away with 2 yards per layer but I wouldn't risk it. As far as throw distances and fl, I have no idea. I would try a white bedsheet in the meantime and see what you think.
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post #279 of 347 Old 08-03-2014, 10:59 AM
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I would go white over white (I think your Epson is going to give the blackness even with higher gain).

Besides the fact that the Poster referenced to has already stated his intentions, I must disagree....even though I have installed many 8350s (26+) and was among the first to do so.

The brightness of the 8350 will work against the stated contrast specs on a purely white surface. It's 50K:1 rating is based upon the use of a optimally calibrated Cinema Mode, with the Auto Lens Aperture feature engaged and the lamp output set on Low Lamp. That means if the Normal Lamp Mode is used on a white surface, contrast will take a hit. And with a Spandex Screen, Normal Lamp Mode is almost always employed.

Conversely, if one has the Lumen output at hand, and the screen size / gain specs do not work against them, then the use of a Gray surface can result insignificantly improved black levels. And in this instance, since the Gray that is imparted, and the resulting attenuation comes not from the the Screen's 1st surface level but from the underlying material, the topmost white surface is allowed to retain and return a higher degree of white and color dynamics than a Gray would otherwise.

With advanced Gray painted surfaces, the same is accomplished using reflectivity enhanced mixtures. With Spandex, it's all about what the forward surface does, and how the rear surface both stops a greater amount of light from getting lost out the rear, while also deepening the shades of any light that is being reflected back through the top layer.

This is borne out additionally by the fact that some actually advocate using Black Spandex as a rear layer, which in turn both further attenuates light (ie: loss of more gain...) and deepens Black levels all the more. And they swear by the end results they get. I personally do not feel the additional loss of gain is worth the gains in Black Levels, but the again, if one was using a 3000 Lumen PJ with 10K:1 contrast, that would alter my thinking accordinly.

Sooooo.....any PJ that has adequate lumen output and yet "only" sports a contrast spec of 50K:1 can be better served by using a high contrast surface. And any multi-layer surface that provides an initial white layer will do all the more effective contrast enhancement without the Whites taking a significant hit.

In some respects, that means some degree of actual increase in "off the screen" contrast is happening....the Holy Grail of any such screen, and the basis of many claims made by Mfg Screens. Albeit few are valid.

Quote:
I believe I would buy 6 yards total (3 for each layer) just to be sure. You might get away with 2 yards per layer but I wouldn't risk it. As far as throw distances and fl, I have no idea. I would try a white bedsheet in the meantime and see what you think.
3 yards ea. is correct, and hopefully they were ordered to come rolled....not folded. Some have had issues with stretching out wrinkles.

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post #280 of 347 Old 08-03-2014, 01:12 PM
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Well... I ordered 4 yards of silver and 4 yards of matte white milliskin spandex last night.

I did just email them to request it to be sent to me on a roll. (fingers crossed) I certainly don't want creases I can't get out.

I have been reading that 16 fL is kinda the "mark to hit" for on screen brightness. I am projecting to be at 15 fL with my current set up. I guess if it doesn't look bright enough I'll just have to order more white.

Just to be clear, when you wrap the frame can you do both fabrics at once? Or should they be stapled in separate?
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post #281 of 347 Old 08-04-2014, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanoletzke View Post
Well... I ordered 4 yards of silver and 4 yards of matte white milliskin spandex last night.

I did just email them to request it to be sent to me on a roll. (fingers crossed) I certainly don't want creases I can't get out.

I have been reading that 16 fL is kinda the "mark to hit" for on screen brightness. I am projecting to be at 15 fL with my current set up. I guess if it doesn't look bright enough I'll just have to order more white.

Just to be clear, when you wrap the frame can you do both fabrics at once? Or should they be stapled in separate?
I believe you can strech them together. Somewhere (I have not found it yet) there is a thread explaining some technique to put it in a slot. If you find it please PM me with the link to it!

I plan on doing this very thing soon so I want to do it right.
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post #282 of 347 Old 08-04-2014, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanoletzke View Post
Well... I ordered 4 yards of silver and 4 yards of matte white milliskin spandex last night.

I did just email them to request it to be sent to me on a roll. (fingers crossed) I certainly don't want creases I can't get out.
You have to call them and arrange for the "Rolled" shipment because they charge a nominal amount more for that service. Also, it's problematical that a Email will get the request transferred to Order/Processing/Shipment in time. Why chace it. A Call with your Ordcer number will assure you of getting some unwrinkled material....Do it soon!


Quote:
Or should they be stapled in separate?
Separately.

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post #283 of 347 Old 08-12-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
You have to call them and arrange for the "Rolled" shipment because they charge a nominal amount more for that service. Also, it's problematical that a Email will get the request transferred to Order/Processing/Shipment in time. Why chace it. A Call with your Ordcer number will assure you of getting some unwrinkled material....Do it soon!


Separately.
So... Spandex arrived. Is a little wrinked - tried to get it on roll - was too late

So - any advice on how to get wrinkles out??
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post #284 of 347 Old 08-13-2014, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanoletzke View Post
So... Spandex arrived. Is a little wrinked - tried to get it on roll - was too late

So - any advice on how to get wrinkles out??
If they are just light wrinkles and not "Creases" then adequate stretching should remove them.

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post #285 of 347 Old 12-26-2014, 08:26 AM
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Excellent data here. I hadn't even been aware of using a spandex type material in lieu of the other options. I admit, I focused solely on the test results and some discussion here and there about the results, so I may have missed this... Was the Seymour UF tested? Before reading this thread, I was looking primarily at the Seymour XD or UF. The XD material seems like a great performer in terms of audio, but the varying concerns over moire are enough to give me pause. The UF literature implies less issues with moire but a loss in audio fidelity (perforation sizes alone lend themselves to these conclusions). After reading this thread, I'm obviously leaning toward the DIY material but am still curious to know if a direct comparison has been performed with the UF material, if nothing else than for completeness in comparisons on my end.

Edit: Removed remainder of post asking for help (because I hate when people go OT in my threads, so I don't want to do it to the OP here).

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post #286 of 347 Old 12-27-2014, 06:28 AM
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If you desire exceptional quality in the Audio dept, then compromising to get more reflectivity by using a material with more solid surface area is not a viable answer.

If a Mfg material that supposedly has less reflectivity but better acoustic characteristics, yet sit falls short of what a DIY material can offer on both fronts, where then is the question as far as what would be better?.

Simply stated, those who usually need / desire acoustic screens, by their nature have dedicated theaters with enough light control that any loss of gain is easily enough offset.

Spandex excels at acoustics, usually keeps within a 0.8 - 0.7 range of gain, and costs much less than the Mfg materials. Also, and other "substitutes: such as Phifer Sheerweave fall to the wayside as far as performance in comparison.

All in all, if your a DIY'er with a desire to make something that works great, and does so on a budget, Spandex screen apps are a extremely viable choice.

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post #287 of 347 Old 01-01-2015, 02:05 PM
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I've been reading this thread for awhile and fount out that Fabricland up here in Canada is having a 50% off everything sale tomorrow (Jan,2,2015) so im gonna get me some spandex and finally build a screen.

My Situation:

i'm doing a 124 inch screen (60.75 inch x 108 inch)

My projector is BenQ W1070 - I can place the projector anywhere

My man cave is 100% light controlled and will rarely be used with the lights on

I am using mono price in wall speakers behind my screen

Question:

Use the fabricland spandex that is almost the same as the millskin?

White over Silver or Silver over White?

Thanks guys. This has been an interesting read for a long time
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post #288 of 347 Old 01-06-2015, 07:57 AM
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First of all, welcome to the forum! You should use the Fabric Land material that matches the milliskin matte spandex specs from Spandex World or Spandex House. I would go with white over silver (light gray) based on your projector and lighting conditions. That will give you some ambient light capability excellent dark viewing image.
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post #289 of 347 Old 01-07-2015, 08:07 AM
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just to recap...


The typical recommendation is to go with two layers of milliskin: white and silver.

There are two types of white: matte and silver. Ryan used the matte white. There is, however, only one type of silver: shiny silver. So, I assume this is the correct choice but I wanted to make sure there wasn't at one time a matte silver that just isn't in stock at the moment.

Additionally, has anyone tried using the 'shiny' white?

What about those who wish to use black as their under-layer... matte or shiny black?

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post #290 of 347 Old 01-07-2015, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Rodzinski View Post
White over Silver or Silver over White?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahajr143 View Post
I would go with white over silver (light gray) based on your projector and lighting conditions. That will give you some ambient light capability excellent dark viewing image.
Just to be clear, my understanding is that the first surface that the light hits: the darker it is, the more ambient-light-rejecting the screen will be. The first surface has the majority of the effect of gain and ambient light rejection.

So, given the two choices that Kyle asks about:
  • Silver over White would be darker, and thus more ambient-light-rejecting
  • White over Silver would be brighter, and thus less ambient-light-rejecting

I realize ahajr may well be saying, "the brighter of the two (white on silver), due to the silver underneath, is dark enough to reject enough ambient light for your use case", but I just wanted to clarify.
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post #291 of 347 Old 01-07-2015, 10:47 AM
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You are correct. Silver over white is darker and better at ambient light rejection. Because most of the viewing was going to be done in the dark a brighter image with less ambient light rejection makes sense. Since it was stated that some ambient viewing was possible white over silver makes more sense than white over white, which would give the brightest image but is not good for ambient viewing for most projectors. We are always talking matte finish with spandex recommendations because anything shiny can cause hot spotting, although some have experimented with shiny silver as the underneath layer. The silver matte spandex is more of a light gray.
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post #292 of 347 Old 01-07-2015, 01:55 PM
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I bought white and black, so we'll see how that goes in a bat cave. (I've had no theater since we found mold in basement last April demo'd walls, some new framing, drywall, subfloor, paint, soffits, electrical, finish floor is happening now, and then hopefully next week screen wall!)
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post #293 of 347 Old 03-06-2015, 12:15 PM
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is the 120" spandex material suitable for screen making? No way 60" is going to be big enough for my screen.

http://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/browse/71

I was confused about the white over grey or black but it sounds like you will have bad blacks if you go white over white?

Also - sounds like the gain is quite a bit less (which makes sense) than a blackout screen - I have a BenQ 1070 - am I going to have issues with this? I saw some of the side by side pictures from a different thread and the lack of detail on the spandex side really made me nervous.

I love my blackout cloth screen but I'll never be able to put a center channel speaker behind it.

Is there a post somewhere that shows

1) what it looks like start to finish
2) with links to materials - at least the spandex, the wood and the hardware I can find.
3) with approximate costs

I've seen a ton of posts and pictures with fragments of the above.

at $15 a yard (max for the most expensive fabric) this is still SIGNIFCANTLY cheaper than my blackout screen was - or am I missing something? The blackout fabric alone was almost $100...

thanks in advance!
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post #294 of 347 Old 03-06-2015, 12:55 PM
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The Spandex you linked to states "Mechanical Stretch" which means it has been pre stretched and has very little actual give.

You would find it more workable than a BOC material....but still restrictive as to how much pulll it will take.

The oz. weight of the fabric is identical to Milliskin, which is the accepted reference standard for Spandex screens....so perhaps that's an indication that AT properties will at least be in line with those found with the 4-way stretch Milliskin.

But that is by no means a certainty....just a hopeful prospect.

You make no mention of your PJ...throw....viewing conditions....and only a oblique reference to screen size " No way 60" is going to be big enough for my screen"

As far as all the rest of your requests, you should first make a determination as to what your going to use as per your own demands / limitations. Also, the type of frame...how it's built and of what materials will be dictated by both size and type Fabric.

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post #295 of 347 Old 03-06-2015, 01:19 PM
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I just caught your Thread in Dedicated Theater Builder. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467218/ad...-a-first-timer

1st suggestion above all else....start your own thread on this Forum dedicated to your AT Screen build.

The 4-Way Milliskin will stretch at least 8" additional on all axis....(but NO MORE! )Allowing for a maximum of 72" coverage

But you will have to be meticulous in how evenly you stretch it....using the appropriate stretching pattern.

Your biggest issue is a desire for 16:9....because that requires a much larger fabric to cover. But in your thread you mentioned 150" (diagonal?) That equates to 130" x 73"

Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth

If by some chance you decide to use the 120"....of course you'll have the size needed. Scale back to 144" diagonal (70" x 125") and you can probably get by with a true known quality.....Milliskin Spandex.


.............I still like to know what PJ your planning to use.

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post #296 of 347 Old 03-06-2015, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
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I just caught your Thread in Dedicated Theater Builder. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467218/ad...-a-first-timer
.............I still like to know what PJ your planning to use.
He's using a benq w1070. He's got it in his post above, just hidden in there.
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post #297 of 347 Old 03-07-2015, 08:33 AM
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OK...then at a estimated 0.8 gain and 143" diagonal he will get approx 12 foot lambert reflected brightness. That's ok for a totally dark room, but frankly, what with the poor black level performance of the w1070, a choice of White will be at best somewhat counter productive.

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post #298 of 347 Old 03-07-2015, 06:59 PM
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It's probably worth mentioning that the w1070's black-levels are only poor compared to projectors costing $2000-$3000, and the large screen will bring black-levels down along with creating that 12ftL peak-brightness. Going with an even lower-gain spandex screen will darken blacks at the expense of the entire picture's brightness, so I don't know if going darker would be a good idea.

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post #299 of 347 Old 03-08-2015, 10:11 AM
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No...the w1070's black levels are poor...period. They fall within the Home Video range only, and therefore cannot equate to being acceptable for discerning viewers who want their Blacks not to look Grey even in total darkness.

But yes...as previously stated, a large screen combined with low gain and poor contrast all equates to a dim viewing experience.

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post #300 of 347 Old 03-08-2015, 10:55 AM
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In defense of the w1070, its contrast/black-level is every bit as "poor" as the average professional cinema. True, you can get better (if you pay 3X as much), but many find the cinema image to be pretty nice.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.

Last edited by Ftoast; 03-09-2015 at 08:41 PM.
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