Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 256 Old 03-12-2013, 02:30 PM
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Wow, some really good points brought up since I last posted.

I'll probably still stick around to help out those who are planning to build a curved screen or who want to rock the DIY boat by making a screen using XD material. Apart from that, I'm stoked about my screen and am looking for other ways to make my theater better. I was initially focused on the video aspect of my HT, but man am I ever loving how much of a difference an AT screen with good speakers can make on the whole experience. I'm now in the process of putting up acoustical panels and then I think I'm done...for now. smile.gif

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post #92 of 256 Old 03-12-2013, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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When you're finished being done, allow us to blow your mind with DIY speakers and subs. You probably shouldn't peak in that forum, but ill just dangle the temptation out there for you to choose. wink.gif
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post #93 of 256 Old 03-12-2013, 08:22 PM
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Thanks for sharing the pics absolootbs.

That, sadly, is the nature of DIY screens. A product is not consistently produced over years. Same happened with laminate and paints. Paint manufacturer consistently update their formulas, as well as mixing up names partly for marketing purposes.

Sure you can look at a can of paint that you've used in the past and notice a difference, but you can't be certain without putting a meter on it. That's where specs, data, and measurements are almost a necessity in this hobby.
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post #94 of 256 Old 03-12-2013, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Had my wife look at the XD with a white cloudy background tonight to make sure I wasn't seeing things and the weave is even more obvious than I remember. She immediately saw it.
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post #95 of 256 Old 03-13-2013, 05:44 AM
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have you tried black backer with XD? perhaps it is light bleed from the back layer that makes the weave visible.
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post #96 of 256 Old 03-13-2013, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Ya, put a backer on it. Carefully viewed a credit roll last night as well and the sharpness was identical even 2 feet away. I can't see weave on anything unless its a bright homogenous background like a sky or ocean or something. Blaster master pm'ed me saying orientation of the weave can matter, so ill try some of that.
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post #97 of 256 Old 03-13-2013, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka

If I got it right, from all the samples tested (moleskin, millskin,white and silver), silver matte moleskin you used is actually the best case as far as color neutrality is concerned. Another, and probably bigger point, is that using multiple layers is a bad idea, making the odds of ever getting properly calibrated picture very slim.
That sounds about right. Actually, I have two layers of Moleskin. White over gray, so this is probably the worse case scenario. LOL

I just scanned again through the forbidden thread.It looks like i was wrong, the only reasonably neutral option is the one never tried/recommended on this forum. At least I have not seen it tried. Silver Rough Moleskin. It is also the thickest of the bunch ( ~0.004" vs 0.003" mole and 0.002" milliskin). i do not know what it means for AT properties. Would it be at least as good as double milliskin?
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post #98 of 256 Old 03-13-2013, 08:37 PM
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Yeah, I think I am done with Spandex. I am debating either going back to a neutral paint or fork up the cash for XD. I still like to see others experiment with Spandex and share their impressions.
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post #99 of 256 Old 03-13-2013, 09:10 PM
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I'm glad you made it back from the Forbidden Forum without being eaten by Acromantula! wink.gif

Do you think the BenQ W7000 with over 1,500 lumens in best mode would okay with 130" light silver/white?
My boss has this, building the theater now and wants to have some ambient light for fotball.
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post #100 of 256 Old 03-13-2013, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Do you think the BenQ W7000 with over 1,500 lumens in best mode would okay with 130" light silver/white?
My boss has this, building the theater now and wants to have some ambient light for fotball.

I think the Benq W7000 has 2000 lumens, which is nice and bright. But seriously with this spandex stuff it's so variable because it is so stretchy. Stretch it too much and you allow too much light through and you don't have enough brightness. Stretch it too little and you don't have very good acoustic transparency. If I were doing it again, I would stretch it just enough so it's taut enough to get rid of the wrinkles.

PS - Smokarz - if you need the AT, fork it up...it's worth it. wink.gif

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post #101 of 256 Old 03-14-2013, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I just scanned again through the forbidden thread.It looks like i was wrong, the only reasonably neutral option is the one never tried/recommended on this forum. At least I have not seen it tried. Silver Rough Moleskin. It is also the thickest of the bunch ( ~0.004" vs 0.003" mole and 0.002" milliskin). i do not know what it means for AT properties. Would it be at least as good as double milliskin?

If using only 1 layer it would probably be fine. 1 layer of moleskin looks fine to me. And harmaker said it himself that it'll work fine visually, just take a whack of light to do it well.
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I'm glad you made it back from the Forbidden Forum without being eaten by Acromantula! wink.gif

Do you think the BenQ W7000 with over 1,500 lumens in best mode would okay with 130" light silver/white?
My boss has this, building the theater now and wants to have some ambient light for fotball.

We often what movies with a mellow light on so my wife can fold laundry or do things (she can't sit still easily) while the kids and I watch a movie. The grey is really helpful here. It's still very watchable. When I throw a layer of white over top in that same situation, it gets totally washed out.
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post #102 of 256 Old 03-14-2013, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

If using only 1 layer it would probably be fine. 1 layer of moleskin looks fine to me. And harmaker said it himself that it'll work fine visually, just take a whack of light to do it well.
being this thick it may not even need the second layer any way.
Here is something I keep forgetting to ask you about. Have you tried to find out how stretching affects AT properties of spandex ? I'd imagine it improves them some what but I am curious to what degree.
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post #103 of 256 Old 03-14-2013, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I actually did a little bit, and it didn't change much (maybe a 1/4db) but I couldn't stretch it as much as I wanted. I gotta figure a way to really stretch the crap out of it and keep it on my baffle. But I bet I had it stretched as much as most people would, so... The trick is I want to stretch it really tight horizontally and vertically. I'll find a way next time I'm measuring.

efaust has sent me milliskin so that'll happen as well once it gets here.
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post #104 of 256 Old 03-14-2013, 02:30 PM
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So from reading through this thread it sounds like purchasing moleskin matte silver and white as a backer was a bad idea now. Just looking at the images with brief calibration the matte silver on it's own doesn't look good. The whites become very gray. Going the other way with just the white does quite poorly with my benq w7000 which already has black level issues. Guess I'll wait for your report on the milliskin and go from there frown.gif
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post #105 of 256 Old 03-24-2013, 06:48 AM
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Great testing data in this thread, thanks for taking the time to do these tests!

I have a somewhat strange question that only applies to my room / setup. I currently have a DIY screen built using the Centerstage XD material. I recently upgraded to a 1080p projector, and now the texture of the XD weave and the pixel grid from the projector are interfering causing a moire effect.

Some folks recommend tilting the weave of the XD to stop the moire pattern. I do not have enough XD material to tilt it, so I was looking at Spandex, as an alternative.

Any thoughts on using 1 layer of Joann's Spandex over top of my existing XD material. I think the finer texture should stop the moire (would need to test). My worry is the AT properties of such a combo, the testing here shows joanns was the most AT so it may be ok.

I would only use 1 layer of Joanns and rely on the XD material behind it to help reflect more light back as the Joanns by itself is very thin.

Tux, if you have a chance when the milliskin comes in, could you possibly test the XD + 1 layer of Joanns on your speaker ?

I would hate to throw out the XD screen and start over with all spandex if I could make something like this work.

Thanks!
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post #106 of 256 Old 03-24-2013, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Gonthorn

That should work no problem. But I'll give it a test anyways. I have quite a bit of scrap, if you pm me your address ill mail you a piece to try and match up in the store.

Optically I have no idea if that's a good idea. Might not be so good, but others no better.
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post #107 of 256 Old 03-25-2013, 08:55 AM
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My concern would be having a white layer over top of another white layer. Its been recommended in my testing to line the XD material with a black layer as I'll be placing it over my existing white spandex screen for my tests.

The MacBeth Theater (flood resilient build)
 

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post #108 of 256 Old 03-26-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

If using only 1 layer it would probably be fine. 1 layer of moleskin looks fine to me. And harmaker said it himself that it'll work fine visually, just take a whack of light to do it well..

That's what I'm getting out of your Spandex World moleskin measurements also. I'm going to use the Matte White.

I'll also be stretching it a lot tighter than you have, so the acoustic measurements will be better, no doubt.

As for light loss... with the light cannons out these days (I'm using a Sony HW30) and a pitch black Batcave... I can actually see a decent picture on my flat black baffle wall... so no worries here. biggrin.gif
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post #109 of 256 Old 03-26-2013, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
I'll also be stretching it a lot tighter than you have, so the acoustic measurements will be better, no doubt.

Don't stretch it too tight:


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463779/did-i-stretch-my-spandex-too-tight

Not only that, but will you really notice much difference if you stretch it insanely tight vs just tight enough to get rid of the wrinkles? I mean, I had two layers of the damned stuff not stretched very tightly and it still didn't sound that bad. I'd hate for you to vastly compromise the PQ for an incremental gain in AQ. If you're using screen tight, you could always stretch it tighter down the road, but the reverse would be difficult.

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post #110 of 256 Old 04-03-2013, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Milliskin in da house. Feels a lot like Fabric Land stuff. I wouldn't doubt if it's the exact same stuff. Will check it out more thoroughly later and test hopefully this weekend.

Thanks goes out to efaust for getting it to me.
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post #111 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Milliskin in da house. Feels a lot like Fabric Land stuff. I wouldn't doubt if it's the exact same stuff. Will check it out more thoroughly later and test hopefully this weekend.

Thanks goes out to efaust for getting it to me.

No problem. Fingers crossed that the testing does not reveal too much of an issue with the milliskin. In reading your other posts about the distance between the speakers and material, I've decided to build a MDF spacer to place between the wall and the speaker in order to bring it closer to the surface of the spandex. Right now, it's about 3 inches away and I'm hoping to get to less than 1 inch by the time everything is installed.
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post #112 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efaust View Post

I've decided to build a MDF spacer to place between the wall and the speaker in order to bring it closer to the surface of the spandex. Right now, it's about 3 inches away and I'm hoping to get to less than 1 inch by the time everything is installed.

A wise course to follow. In the Spandex AT project I completed, pains were taken to place the "uncovered" face of the Speaker within 3/4" of the Spandex.

If one but examines any conventional speaker, it's easy to not that there is seldom even 3/4" space between the Grill Cloth and the Drivers. Sort of a "Duh" moment there. biggrin.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #113 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 07:04 AM
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A wise course to follow. In the Spandex AT project I completed, pains were taken to place the "uncovered" face of the Speaker within 1/2" of the Spandex.

If one but examines any conventional speaker, it's easy to not that there is seldom even 3/4" space between the Grill Cloth and the Drivers. Sort of a "Duh" moment there. biggrin.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #114 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 07:18 AM
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Is it typical to remove the speaker grill (cloth) when using an AT screen?

-Greg
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post #115 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Is it typical to remove the speaker grill (cloth) when using an AT screen?

It is essential, as the effects of having such varied material between the Driver and the ear are cumulative.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #116 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 07:48 AM
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That certainly makes sense. Thank you.

-Greg
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post #117 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 08:16 AM
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That certainly makes sense. Thank you.

Your most welcome. BTW...I like your Avatar....very "James Thurber-ish" biggrin.gif

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post #118 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 08:46 AM
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Thanks. A buddy of mine is a talented artist and likes to make fun of my big nose smile.gif He's great.

-Greg
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post #119 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Thanks. A buddy of mine is a talented artist and likes to make fun of my big nose smile.gif He's great.

Hmmmm...........is that why your so angry?

biggrin.gif

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post #120 of 256 Old 04-09-2013, 09:32 AM
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Funny, he did give me that nickname about 20 years ago (at least the angry part) - he thought it looked like angry when I signed my full first name - kind of stuck. I added the ht.

-Greg
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