Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 256 Old 05-09-2013, 09:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
brian6751's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 94
i wonder how one layer of milliskin would be over the XD as well. i have a XD screen on order but im worried about the texture showing. i was thinking i could maybe put a layer of silver milliskin over it. that would also help with my black levels. i have a BenQ w1070 PJ

Xbox One Gamertag = The Barbeerian

PS4 PSNID = The-Barbeerian
brian6751 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 256 Old 05-09-2013, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,420
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 459
Well, it's cheap enough to experiment with. I think audibly it'll degrade, but probably not badly and still acceptable. XD is quite bright, and if you have any ambient light blacks are easily washed out. The silver really kicks contrast up a notch. But if you're in a bat cave you probably wouldn't need it. I dunno, others probably know more about what to expect visually. There's also been some chatter about something called pixel intereference or something like that. When two layers are placed together they can blur the image. I've seen a screen shot of it and it was very convincing. I think the milliskin is so thin it's probably not an issue, but the thicker materials maybe do cause a pixel intereference issue.

Like I said, it's cheap to try.
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #183 of 256 Old 05-09-2013, 10:04 AM
Newbie
 
craig5571's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: sterling heights michigan
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
hello everyone,

I was wondering if i could get some advice, i am a wireless network engineer by trade not an audio / video phile. i just got a benq 1080p projector and absolutely love it. i currently have it setup in my basement. its projecting on the the back white masonry ( stucco looking) wall. its at 150" and its just great.. floor to ceiling coverage.. my only issue is since, the screen is floor to ceiling , i have no where to place the speakers.. ( 7 kef eggs hts2001, driven by a pioneer sc-1522 from costco, and a SVS 12 inch cylinder subwoofer, the basement is about 20 feet wide from end to end. and the couch is about 12 feet away. ( this can be changed) on far back wall i have a precor ellipitcal and a treadmill and an exercise bike.

what i was thinking of making was a spandex milliskin screen . the reason for this is AT , i could put the speakers behind the screen. i dont want a science project here, just want to set it up and enjoy.

i appreciate everyones help. and time , for any response.

my question is how much fabric would i need for a 150" inch diagonal screen, 16x9 and what color should i get , i know MATTE is preferred.

thank you for your time
craig5571 is offline  
post #184 of 256 Old 05-09-2013, 10:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
smokarz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Posts: 3,256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well, it's cheap enough to experiment with. I think audibly it'll degrade, but probably not badly and still acceptable. XD is quite bright, and if you have any ambient light blacks are easily washed out. The silver really kicks contrast up a notch. But if you're in a bat cave you probably wouldn't need it. I dunno, others probably know more about what to expect visually. There's also been some chatter about something called pixel intereference or something like that. When two layers are placed together they can blur the image. I've seen a screen shot of it and it was very convincing. I think the milliskin is so thin it's probably not an issue, but the thicker materials maybe do cause a pixel intereference issue.

Like I said, it's cheap to try.



This is what I've been seeing and reporting when comparing my white/silver spandex screen against the gray paint screen on a sheet of komatex. The spandex is not as sharp as the paint.

It is also the reason why other people, not from this forum, suggested the use of a black layer and it makes sense to me. Even Seymour himself uses a black layer behind his XD material.

With your tests, I'll probably experiment with spandex again. This time with Milliskin and white/black.
smokarz is offline  
post #185 of 256 Old 05-09-2013, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,420
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 459
Hey Craig,

I don't mind questions like that in this thread at all, I really don't care where any ramblings go here, but you will probably get a better answer to those questions in someones build thread similar to your needs, or your own thread. Shooting from the hip, you'll need slightly less spandex than the width of your screen, but don't cheap out and come up short. As for height, I'm not sure how wide milliskin comes in at. You'll probably be fine though. To keep as much light on the screen as possible, you want to stretch it as little as possible, so don't get to small of a piece.

Good luck with your build.
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #186 of 256 Old 05-09-2013, 12:04 PM
Newbie
 
craig5571's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: sterling heights michigan
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
thank you for the advice, i have started my own thread.
craig5571 is offline  
post #187 of 256 Old 05-16-2013, 01:21 PM
Newbie
 
jdoggg12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well, it's cheap enough to experiment with. I think audibly it'll degrade, but probably not badly and still acceptable. XD is quite bright, and if you have any ambient light blacks are easily washed out. The silver really kicks contrast up a notch. But if you're in a bat cave you probably wouldn't need it. I dunno, others probably know more about what to expect visually. There's also been some chatter about something called pixel intereference or something like that. When two layers are placed together they can blur the image. I've seen a screen shot of it and it was very convincing. I think the milliskin is so thin it's probably not an issue, but the thicker materials maybe do cause a pixel intereference issue.

Like I said, it's cheap to try.

Can you post/link said image? My dual layer spandex screen seems in focus and blurry and the same time
jdoggg12 is offline  
post #188 of 256 Old 05-17-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,420
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 459
jdogg, the pictures were sent to me via pm from blastermaster. You could try him. I have no pony is this race about black cloth or dual layer. I use a grey over white but my back layer is Joanne's spandex and it's very very thin. Leaks a ton of light. I do however get "glow" off the white wall behind it and need to paint it black. Haven't gotten to that so I use a layer of what ever I have that's black. But eventually I'll paint everything black behind it. I do think the "glow" degrades the picture quality somewhat.
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #189 of 256 Old 05-18-2013, 02:12 PM
RTK
AVS Special Member
 
RTK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Just found this thread and starting to plan for my AT screen project. Somewhere I missed it but what is the reason/reasons for using a second layer of milliskin? Light leak? Also, it is advisable to have the wall behind the screen be flat black to minimize any potential reflection? Currently trying to decide whether the light gray layer will be on top on underneath. Anyone ever experiment or try using gromets on Milliskin?

Rick
RTK is offline  
post #190 of 256 Old 05-18-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,420
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 459
Ya I think it was started to prevent so much light leakage. Personally I just use one layer, essentially. But I'm throwing from 9' and have 2k lumens.

Whether 2 layers is good or bad I dunno.
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #191 of 256 Old 05-20-2013, 02:13 PM
Senior Member
 
ahajr143's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTK View Post

Just found this thread and starting to plan for my AT screen project. Somewhere I missed it but what is the reason/reasons for using a second layer of milliskin? Light leak? Also, it is advisable to have the wall behind the screen be flat black to minimize any potential reflection? Currently trying to decide whether the light gray layer will be on top on underneath. Anyone ever experiment or try using gromets on Milliskin?

Originally, two layers were used to obtain a neutral gray and white was used over black. The two layers also prevented the supports from showing through. Since then, various combinations have been tried, silver over white, white over silver, black over white, etc. Using two layers also reflects back more light that leads to a brighter picture. Some have complained that it leads to a lack of picture sharpness due to the change in focal length of the light reflected from the first layer compared to that of the second layer. That is why some have proposed using black for the second layer to reduce the second layer reflection. Personally I have white milliskin over silver moleskin that is stretched very tight and I have no problem with picture sharpness. The only reason not to use two layers would be the possible impact to the acoustical transparency.

I think grommets would be a problem because you would have to sew a seam in order to have sufficient strength for the grommets not to cause tearing of the spandex and it would be difficult to stretch the spandex uniformly with the grommets.
ahajr143 is offline  
post #192 of 256 Old 05-21-2013, 08:35 PM
Senior Member
 
mhutchins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 50
In post #31 in this discussion, tuxedocivic showed a frequency response curve with a comb filter response due to a slight standoff of the speaker from the back of the screen. The initial recommendation was to place the speaker as close as possible to the screen (or more than 12" away from the screen) to reduce the impact of these unwanted reflections between the back of the screen and the speaker. I have several questions related to this phenomena:

1. For Controlled Directivity Speakers, eg. waveguides, will the reflected wave continue into the throat of the waveguide, effectively eliminating the option of placing the speaker as close as possible to the screen? If so, does a waveguide speaker need to be as far back from the screen as a domed tweeter speaker in order to reduce the amplitude and frequency shift the attenuation pattern (comb filtering) by a like amount?

2. Will simply toeing in the (L & R) speakers effectively eliminate this issue altogether since the speaker and screen surfaces will no longer be parallel? Similarly, should the center channel be tilted either up or down to accomplish the same result?

3.What if the primary front screen layer, say matte white milliskin, is separated by an inch or so from the absorptive back layer of black milliskin spandex in order to reduce visible room bleed-through from behind the screen. Would these two large parallel screen surfaces create a significant comb filter attenuation pattern of the transmitted sound?

I hope these questions make sense.

Thanks,
Mike
mhutchins is offline  
post #193 of 256 Old 05-22-2013, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,420
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 459
Hey mhutchins,

Hopefully I can help.

1. The speaker I used for these tests actually had a 30mm deep waveguide. Which is why you see the blip around 10khz. On a deeper waveguide this effect would be more pronounced I expect. Having said that, I took a measurement (shown in post 5 or 6 I think) of a SEOS speaker behind my screen and although the trend was more broad, there wasn't any combing. I'm still a little baffled by that, although I have some ideas as to you. So I really need to spend more time on this to understand whats really going on for waveguide speakers. Real waveguides, not my little 30mm deep waveguide. So how far back ot close or whatever, I'm not sure what to recommend yet for speakers like that yet.

2. I plan to look into this a little bit, but don't hold your breath. My intuition is that cross firing will take care of the combing effect. Problem is the center as you pointed out. I don't know what you would do with that.

3. Well, 1 inch isn't much. I don't think you'd get combing. But I'm also not sure what the advantage would be. Why not right against each other?


Just to note. I do plan on doing more testing with the best fabrics (milliskin and XD, I'll assume FabricLand will perform very similar to milliskin). I especially plan to test around the use of waveguide speakers. Right now based on my one measurement of my speaker on the first page, and thinking about the subject, I have a feeling waveguide speakers are actually immune to the combing effect. Even without toe in. Zheka has a measurement of his somewhere as well, and not issues. My reasoning is because of the shape of the waveguide, the reflected wave gets "lost" in the waveguide. Where as a flat baffle speaker (which is essentially what I tested with) has a perfectly flat reflective surface. With the compression driver and waveguide, there isn't any flat surface. Even at the back of the throat, the CD has a phase plug. So any reflected sound is going to bounce around in the waveguide until it's attenuated enough it won't matter. It's kind of like HOM (higher order modes) but I doubt it's a problem. We'll see how it goes. I'll probably use my avatar picture speaker to do the testing since I'll be testing it anyways.
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #194 of 256 Old 05-22-2013, 09:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HopefulFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,727
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I do plan on doing more testing with the best fabrics (milliskin and XD, I'll assume FabricLand will perform very similar to milliskin). I especially plan to test around the use of waveguide speakers.
Thanks for doing this, and I'm looking forward to it (not holding my breath, but anxious none-the-less).

Fred
HopefulFred is offline  
post #195 of 256 Old 05-22-2013, 11:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 7,014
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 255 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Thanks for doing this, and I'm looking forward to it (not holding my breath, but anxious none-the-less).

Fred

FWIW I have tested the XD fabric with the SEOS horns and seen no such second "blip" with the speakers at any variable distance from the material.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is offline  
post #196 of 256 Old 05-22-2013, 03:25 PM
Senior Member
 
mhutchins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

3. Well, 1 inch isn't much. I don't think you'd get combing. But I'm also not sure what the advantage would be. Why not right against each other?

The 1" came about from my screen frame thickness and from my reading in another forum about concerns related to inter-pixel contrast loss from sandwiched spandex layers such as white/silver and also from reports of light spillage through the screen and reflecting off the back wall to ruin black levels. I was trying to come up with a solution that was both acoustically transparent, and visually optimal without introducing audio or visual artifacts.

As to the inter-pixel contrast loss from sandwiched layers, for second layers other than black) I have at least a theoretic understanding of how this would work. Consider a 96" wide, 16:9 screen with a 1080P image. Each pixel is .050" wide and has a fill ratio of roughly 90% (see (see Table 2) which results in roughly .005" between pixels. The milliskin spandex is reported to be just .002" thick (Link), so, assuming a 120 degree light dispersion from the back-most surface, I could envision the inter-pixel gap enlarging to as much as a .020" region of gradual color transition between adjacent pixels (which also implies a diminished area of "pure" pixel color by a like amount).
While this could lead to some edge softening, it might also lessen jaggies. Given that LCD panels may be misaligned by as much as a full pixel, this 1/4 to 1/7 pixel averaging between pixels may not be such a problem. I plan to experiment a bit with this and see if I can get some macro shots to share with the group down the road (several weeks). Once I have something worth posting, I'll start a new thread and link to it in this post... If any of you already have pixel-level screen shots either proving or disproving this issue/theory, please share them so we can make our own judgements.

Thanks!
mhutchins is offline  
post #197 of 256 Old 05-22-2013, 03:26 PM
Senior Member
 
mhutchins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

FWIW I have tested the XD fabric with the SEOS horns and seen no such second "blip" with the speakers at any variable distance from the material.

That's good to know!

Thanks!
mhutchins is offline  
post #198 of 256 Old 05-25-2013, 09:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
brian6751's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 94
i am going to install my Jamestown frame today. i ordered it with the XD material, but i also ordered white and silver milliskin. i think im going to try the milliskin first. i plan to staple it to the backside of the frame. if it works out well, i think i will just sell the XD material without even opening it. im only 9.5' away and i could benifit from the gray material also. i could not see weave using the small sample they send but im worried i will see it with a whole screen.

Xbox One Gamertag = The Barbeerian

PS4 PSNID = The-Barbeerian
brian6751 is offline  
post #199 of 256 Old 05-25-2013, 03:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
brian6751's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 94
screen is up. looks pretty good so far. no visible screen texture from my distance. i dont have my center in so im not sure how it sounds yet. i need to watch some blurays

Xbox One Gamertag = The Barbeerian

PS4 PSNID = The-Barbeerian
brian6751 is offline  
post #200 of 256 Old 05-25-2013, 07:12 PM
RTK
AVS Special Member
 
RTK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
So you ordered the Jamestown screen with XD but installed 2 layer milliskin instead because you didn't want any screen texture? would love to hear how the two, XD vs. Milliskin matte compare in your setup.

Rick
RTK is offline  
post #201 of 256 Old 05-25-2013, 09:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
brian6751's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 94
i watched Jack Reacher tonight. the silver over white milliskin works really good. my BenQ w1070 definitely benefits from the gray screen. looks much better with the lights on than my Elite 1.1 gain Cinewhite did and there is zero texture. unfortunately, the screen frame is bowing a little bit but i will install a couple more french cleats to support it better.

at this point, knowing the acoustic attributes of the two layer milliskin, i would be totally happy not even trying the XD. the high contrast of the milliskin is a huge factor for me though so take that into consideration. i could open the XD and drape it over the screen to compare but i dont have any intent of keeping it so i think i would rather not open it. i think there are already comparisons of the two.

Xbox One Gamertag = The Barbeerian

PS4 PSNID = The-Barbeerian
brian6751 is offline  
post #202 of 256 Old 05-26-2013, 08:14 AM
RTK
AVS Special Member
 
RTK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

i watched Jack Reacher tonight. the silver over white milliskin works really good. my BenQ w1070 definitely benefits from the gray screen. looks much better with the lights on than my Elite 1.1 gain Cinewhite did and there is zero texture. unfortunately, the screen frame is bowing a little bit but i will install a couple more french cleats to support it better.

at this point, knowing the acoustic attributes of the two layer milliskin, i would be totally happy not even trying the XD. the high contrast of the milliskin is a huge factor for me though so take that into consideration. i could open the XD and drape it over the screen to compare but i dont have any intent of keeping it so i think i would rather not open it. i think there are already comparisons of the two.

With the lights on, its not surprising the silver milliskin was preferable. With the lights turned off, how does it compare? How big is your unopened XD screen and is it angled?

Rick
RTK is offline  
post #203 of 256 Old 05-26-2013, 08:41 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 14,654
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTK View Post

With the lights on, its not surprising the silver milliskin was preferable. With the lights turned off, how does it compare? How big is your unopened XD screen and is it angled?

If it looks good with/under lights, content shown in a dark setting can only look better. It's a given that if any 1.1 gain White surface was held up to compare in the dark, the White would show a significantly higher level of brightness across the board.. Just the same, if the roles were reversed, the brightness of a 1.1 gain White would be trumped by the Miliskin's gray surface holding up Black levels to much greater effect, and essentially make the XD material look poor in direct comparison.

Then there is the "far less texture" issue, to which the XD can offer no response.

Not sure though why it's not clear enough that if brian6751's XD hasn't been opened, that no direct comparison can be made.confused.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
MississippiMan is offline  
post #204 of 256 Old 05-26-2013, 11:56 AM
RTK
AVS Special Member
 
RTK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

If it looks good with/under lights, content shown in a dark setting can only look better.

Completely opinionated factless based response. When you make comments like this it completely undermines the useful information you have provided to this forum. Did you actually sit down with his particular equipment and do the comparison? For this statement to be true, EVERYONE would be using and prefer a silver/gray screen in a dark setting, which as you know is not the case. Your generic comments regarding white/black levels in a dark room completely ignore the need for calibration, the effect upon colors, as well lumen output of a projector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Then there is the "far less texture" issue, to which the XD can offer no response

Is it truly necessary to criticize a commercial product to "defend" DIY solution? Weren't Brian's comments about zero texture enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Not sure though why it's not clear enough that if brian6751's XD hasn't been opened, that no direct comparison can be made.confused.gif

If you would read before blabbing, Brian specifically made a comparison and said, "looks much better with the lights on than my Elite 1.1 gain Cinewhite, " to which a comparison with the lights off was requested. Its unfortunate that your personal agenda and fixation with demeaning XD clouded your ability to read. Lastly and not that any explanation to you is necessary, I inquired about his "unopened XD" as I might be interested in purchasing it.

MM, for someone who contributes regularly to this forum, you might find it useful to allow other people to answer for themselves. My apologies to all for taking the acoustic spandex thread off track

Rick
RTK is offline  
post #205 of 256 Old 05-26-2013, 02:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
brian6751's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 94
with the lights off, the blacks are better and the image is not so glaring. not as big a difference as the lights on comparison but i think its a little better. the XD material was cut for my 106" screen and IS cross cut.

Xbox One Gamertag = The Barbeerian

PS4 PSNID = The-Barbeerian
brian6751 is offline  
post #206 of 256 Old 05-26-2013, 05:10 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 14,654
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 206
RTK,

The fact is that I have seen both Milliskin and Moleskin Silver, and I say with conviction that is someone...anyone views an image on a sub 1.0 gain surface, in ambient light, and finds the image "watchable", the it's 99% assuref the dark room viewing will be much better.

That is so elementary it's almost embarrassing to have to repeat that to any member who has as much time on the forum under his belt.

As far as my comments about a mfg screen's performance...or lack thereof... on this, a DIY Screen Forrm, I feel it's wholly appropriate, and needs relating / reminding to those who are considering DIY, and who instead get confronted with mfg screen options on this DIY forum.

You on the other hand, have chosen not to post anything at all about the subject, but instead post up arather dismissive and personally insultive post. Just more of the same similar knee jerk reaction coing from someone who neither knows exactly what "I" know, but assumes he does so feels free to "blabber".

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
MississippiMan is offline  
post #207 of 256 Old 05-26-2013, 07:12 PM
RTK
AVS Special Member
 
RTK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

The fact is that I have seen both Milliskin and Moleskin Silver, and I say with conviction that is someone...anyone views an image on a sub 1.0 gain surface, in ambient light, and finds the image "watchable", the it's 99% assuref the dark room viewing will be much better.

Two separate posts and you still continue to speak but refuse to read? The question was never how the spandex screen would compare in light setting vs. darkened room, it was how does his spandex screen compare to the Elite 1.1 gain Cinewhite in a darkened room. Is that elementary enough for you?

Rick
RTK is offline  
post #208 of 256 Old 05-26-2013, 08:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
brian6751's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTK View Post

Two separate posts and you still continue to speak but refuse to read? The question was never how the spandex screen would compare in light setting vs. darkened room, it was how does his spandex screen compare to the Elite 1.1 gain Cinewhite in a darkened room. Is that elementary enough for you?

i think what MM is saying is that since i found the light room viewing better its almost certain i would find the dark room viewing better as well. he is correct. i actually thought at first the colors didnt pop as much but then i reset my settings and all the pop was back. incredible how good a $1K projector and a spandex screen can look.

anyway. sorry to get this thread off topic. the whole point was to make sure this milliskin would pass the image quality test so i can put a speaker behind it. it passes the test for me. now i cant wait to get my speaker done!!

as far as milliskin vs. XD. for me. in my room with my PJ, the gray screen makes a big enough difference to use the milliskin over the XD regardless of whether i would see the texture.

Xbox One Gamertag = The Barbeerian

PS4 PSNID = The-Barbeerian
brian6751 is offline  
post #209 of 256 Old 05-27-2013, 01:33 AM
RTK
AVS Special Member
 
RTK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

i think what MM is saying is that since i found the light room viewing better its almost certain i would find the dark room viewing better as well. he is correct.

Yes, he is correct the same screen viewed in a dark room will be better. rolleyes.gif That was never the question nor is it a usually meaningful comparison but if you're happy that's really all that matter. Enjoy your Milliskin screen.

Rick
RTK is offline  
post #210 of 256 Old 05-27-2013, 07:38 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 14,654
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Just so as to settle the issue........
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTK View Post

So you ordered the Jamestown screen with XD but installed 2 layer milliskin instead because you didn't want any screen texture? would love to hear how the two, XD vs. Milliskin matte compare in your setup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTK View Post

With the lights on, its not surprising the silver milliskin was preferable. With the lights turned off, how does it compare? How big is your unopened XD screen and is it angled?

Well gosh gee willkers.....it seems that you did ask about a comparison between XD & Milliskin. Then you followed up with a confirming response about Brian's observations, and even (OMG!) asked for yet another comparison. While your question might have been referring to the CineWhite, your wording didn't do much to allude to that, especially seeing your immediate follow-up question about the XD:
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

i watched Jack Reacher tonight. the silver over white milliskin works really good. my BenQ w1070 definitely benefits from the gray screen. looks much better with the lights on than my Elite 1.1 gain Cinewhite did and there is zero texture. unfortunately, the screen frame is bowing a little bit but i will install a couple more french cleats to support it better.

at this point, knowing the acoustic attributes of the two layer milliskin, i would be totally happy not even trying the XD. the high contrast of the milliskin is a huge factor for me though so take that into consideration. i could open the XD and drape it over the screen to compare but i dont have any intent of keeping it so i think i would rather not open it. i think there are already comparisons of the two.

Brian's response was both direct and specific on two points:

a. The Silver>White Milliskin looked better...MUCH better than the Cinewhite with the lights on. Under that premise, it would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that the same reasons he liked it in ambient light would hold true in the dark. Gray enhanced Contrast = Blacker Black levels.

b. That he understood from the posted data that the Milliskin performed extremely well "acoustically" so combined with the high contrast, considering the XD was not on his agenda.

I responded in kind, yet it seems that your only focus was my supposedly "failing" to note your oblique reference to a Cinewhite / Milliskin comparison , which (...would'nt you know it....) had already been determined and noted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTK View Post

Two separate posts and you still continue to speak but refuse to read? The question was never how the spandex screen would compare in light setting vs. darkened room, it was how does his spandex screen compare to the Elite 1.1 gain Cinewhite in a darkened room. Is that elementary enough for you?

Soooo...It seems that your only "agenda" was taking issue wherever you could conjure up some. Or...(horrors...) you simply forgot what you yourself had posted.

No problem, those who advocate Mfg Screen options often intrude upon DIY Screens to press that agenda, (...despite Forum rules to the contrary...) and if they encounter someone whose own purpose runs contrary, then some degree of confrontation is gonna occur. How far that goes and to what level it's taken, I can say without reservation that I don't start up with insulting or demeaning anyone.....however I'm not shy about touting the difference the combination of less expense and acceptable / exlemplary performance in a DIY app vs a Mfg app can make to a DIY'er.

A quick study across the various XD threads shows obvious disgruntlement over texture/ weave issues...and in fact there's a New Sheriff in town, Enlightor 4K whose lack of observable weave / texture renders XD / Sheerweave materials into "toilet paper" status in comparison as far as that issue goes. (...for TP usage only, tongue.gif ) Why it's almost amusing to see end user comments alluding to the fact that the surface of E-4K resembles a ultra fine woven cloth.(...gee, Spandex anyone? rolleyes.gif ) Now considering what some other E-4K users have said about comparing it to XD, does my commentary still strike you or anyone as being uninformed and off base?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1472612/center-stage-xd-vs-enlightor-4k#post_23336210

RTK, you have absolutely no conception how far ranging my knowledge and involvement in Front Projection is. Much of what I do...and know... I choose not to relate, or am specifically told NOT to relate. Yes, at times I use that collective knowledge to make judgmental assumptions as to applicability and preference, but never do I "blabber" about something I have no idea or knowledge about, even if such knowledge is garnered via reading extensively about the "collective" experience of other end users. For many, this is wholly acceptable, to pass on information based on observance, not actual personal experience. But in my case, it seems that I'm expected to have had personal experience with anything / everything I dare to post about.

The entire Spandex vs Mfg AT Material subject has been rife with just the same responses you made from those who take a similar stance as you did, and primarily the same reasons apply....they don't seem to read anything into my responses except what they deem most important to their subsequent posts. Yet not so surprisingly, my own "assumptions" and determinations made by my own personal experience all seem to be validated as time, when the actual experience by others is taken into account.

In truth, excepting your foray onto DIY Screens to make comments on Spandex, you have never had an interest or posted before on this Forum. I cannot be sure why you chose to dump on me and my comments to the point you did, I suspect it's because of some of the aforementioned comments by a select few others have tainted your reasoning.... but you should know that I spend every bit of my time and effort on AVS trying to advance DIY Screen making, by the use of true DIY methods and materials. I'll never shy away from that "agenda" and since I maintain that "agenda" on the Forum where the AVS rules dictate it should remain, I'll brook no effort to denigrate me for having such an "agenda".

I just don't "go there" using derogatory comments. Well, at least I don't start it. biggrin.gif And experience has shown that any response by me needs to be muted and as courteous as possible. That is not to say such comments and responses won't tend to embarrass or reveal the true intentions behind such "attacks" on my efforts. Experience has also shown that if such responses are not made, things only tend to get worse because a select few seem to feel empowered by any lack of rebuttal. It's really a sad circle, but I've been circling DIY Screens for a while now (...please, no Vulture comparisons...) and there is not much I miss on the Threads here, or across a very wide gamut of other Forum topics.

To the extent of all the above I also must apologize for having to post a missive like this. But the alternative would be far worse.

It is a fact that the discussion about "texture" and "Contrast" is both viable and acceptable, as stated by the Thread Starter a short while back. So none of us is guilty of discussing a non-relevant or OT subject.

However the posts concerning personal attacks...? That is a different story altogether I I hope you'll consider such should you determine to continue posting on DIY Screens.

As for me, I feel this last post pretty much settles the issue entirely, so I won't respond to anything again directed thus. I also promise not to intrude upon the Screens Forum and the XD / Sheerweave threads. There is enough going on there...they don't need any help.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
MississippiMan is offline  
Reply DIY Screen Section

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off