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post #1 of 32 Old 02-04-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings!

Below is a picture with my problem...all the white. Not a dedicated home theater, and I can not think of any way to blacken the ceiling without really making a visual mess. If I did not have that soffit on the right, things would be much easier.

Screen is 90", made it from an old pull down screen I had. Indeed, it is a little wrinkled, but it is rarely noticeable to me when the projector is on. The 8350 is 12' from the screen.

In terms of image quality, I'm actually overall impressed - although lighter scenes do get washed out (mostly on cartoons with the kids, but they dont notice). There is also a wrinkle from the manufacturer that is also rarely noticeable. These two things are what make me want to improve...

So I was thinking of doing a gray screen, probably paint a doable board or go right over the sheetrock. I am looking for advice and opinions...the biggest thing holding me back is this - how much image quality improvement can I expect a gray screen to make, given the other constraints in the room?

2013-02-04 13.39.52.jpg 205k .jpg file

I am not averse to other ideas...if I did not have the soffit there, I would wrap the ceiling tiles in velvet and be done with it. I think it would look funky to paint or velvet just part of the soffit (the soffit is 25' long).

I've read a lot of great things here, so I thought I'd cast a line and see what happens - thanks for reading!
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post #2 of 32 Old 02-04-2013, 12:16 PM
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I had to work around a soffett, but it didn't extend over the screen, but could have been a potential issue for relections. You can check it out here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1259060/time-to-start-paintin

I painted the soffett to match the ceiling a flat dark brown. I never notice it. The pictures need updating as I've added curtain material all around the screen area sides, top and bottom and I laid a piece of the material on top of the center channel speaker and eliminated that relection. The curtain covers the white door on the left. My side walls are a flat tan (Ralph Lauren suede) that is not a factor with reflection.

If you want to paint, buy some extra ceiling tiles and brackets and paint the first row a flat dark color and wrap that color around the soffett. Even in a non-dedicated room you can change the color if you do it neatly.

I assume that the lights are not on other than when the kids are watching cartoons. Draping some fabric neatly starting from the center channel speaker out past the sides. If you bunch it at the top, widen as you reach the soffet and then let hang once you're past the sides it could be a neat look and formalize the screen side of the room. Print the picture and play with some cutouts. You can dummy it up on the side oposite the soffet to balance the look.

Anyway there's my $.02 worth of suggestions.
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post #3 of 32 Old 02-04-2013, 12:19 PM
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The first thing to realize and accept is that under your circumstances, switching to a Gray surface would be very advantageous. Do not doubt the validity or necessity for such a change.

The second thing to get down with is that using Drywall is not just an accepted practice, it can be at times the very best route to take.
Less cost - extremely easy screen placement - screen is almost as indestructible as the wall....and certainly just as repairable. All you have to do is make sure it's as smooth as possible.

Oooo...that 'ol 90"er is a wrinkly mess. tongue.gif

It would seem that 90" will be your new screen size also...or very close to that.

RS-MaxxMudd LL
would be the brightest mix to suggest. However Silver Fire would work best to mitigate the reflections those White surfaces bring to bear.

The Ceiling is not nearly as troublesome as is the Soffit / Fur Down. But both need addressing.

Although tastes can and do differ, I have not found many who remain adverse to creating a darkened "Shadow Box" affair at one end of the room after having done so, and none ever fail to see / realize the advantage such an action affords the performance of the PJ / Screen combo.

You don't need to "Blacken" those surfaces. Simply Spray the first row of ceiling Tiles directly over the Screen, and a like depth of the Soffit the same color of the walls (in "Flat"). Or perhaps the same color only 2-3 shades darker. That will do wonders for abating...if not actually eliminating your reflection based issues. And...if you produce a new Silver Fire v2.5 3.0 Screen and also address the ceiling / Soffit, you'll make that 8350 perform like a 5020

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #4 of 32 Old 02-04-2013, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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It IS a wrinkly mess...but when the picture is on it, it doesnt really bother me...I'm not that picky I guess!

I actually considered making a 'shadow box'...but then when Wife picked a dark wall color I forgot about it...since the ceiling tiles are actually smooth ('plain white' from armstrong), they will probably be easy to paint. I think I might be able to get away with matching the wall color on the ceiling/soffit to create a shadow box...and then for kicks paint a screen right on the sheetrock. I certainly appreciate your replying to my post, I have read many of yours around here!

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post #5 of 32 Old 02-04-2013, 02:58 PM
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Well I hope you can convince the Headmaster of the real need and positive benefits.

In many ways, painting the underside of the entire Soffit the same color as the Walls is a very "Decor-oriented" solution. I'm pretty sure once done, it will be a very well liked and commented on piece of decor.

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post #6 of 32 Old 02-04-2013, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Valentine's day is right around the corner...makes the softening a little less obvious perhaps smile.gif

BillyBob, I did not see your post there - my apologies! I actually have enough velvet left over from my frame to try that idea...like making a tent of sorts? I will give that a shot, if for no other reason than to see the benefit of darkening the ceiling...and since I already have the material it costs nothing more than a little time. I did actually play around a little with hanging the velvet over the ceiling tiles, but got frustrated without an extra set of hands. I was going into it more blindly that time though...now i have a plan smile.gif

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post #7 of 32 Old 02-05-2013, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpoynton View Post

Valentine's day is right around the corner...makes the softening a little less obvious perhaps smile.gif

BillyBob, I did not see your post there - my apologies! I actually have enough velvet left over from my frame to try that idea...like making a tent of sorts? I will give that a shot, if for no other reason than to see the benefit of darkening the ceiling...and since I already have the material it costs nothing more than a little time. I did actually play around a little with hanging the velvet over the ceiling tiles, but got frustrated without an extra set of hands. I was going into it more blindly that time though...now i have a plan smile.gif

That'sallright. I'll always defer to MM, but like to throw in what little I've learned over time.
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post #8 of 32 Old 02-05-2013, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Appreciate it! My velvet is long enough to cover the ceiling tiles, but not the soffit as well...drats.

Done some research into silver fire...seems like it has to be sprayed? 20 years ago or so I was painting cars, and I think I understand the technique (which is 'dusting' - not how most car finishes are applied, or at least applied back then). Spraying is messy, and it's just too cold 'round here right now to do it in the garage...I think I'll pick up a sheet of something at lowes and some paint to make the shadow box, and some OTS paint (thinking snowfield in a flat enamel with some polycrylic). I think I'll also add some floetrol...brushed the trim with that stuff mixed in and it looks sprayed. Havent read too much about people using floetrol to roll screens? Hopefully this will get me through til spring, when I can then sand/spray if it doesnt work out so well.

Appreciate the time!

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post #9 of 32 Old 02-05-2013, 02:49 PM
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Just bite the bullet and paint it black.

Screen wall with white ceiling and big soffit like yours:
P1120280.jpg

Now painted black:
8F3AD629-1AE7-4DFD-91B5-7311A0458B9F-535-000000569C05DDEE.jpg


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post #10 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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that looks a lot like my setup! Going to see what I can get away with...the other end of the room (not pictured) is a bar area with stools, wood counters, black cabinets.

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post #11 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpoynton View Post

Appreciate it! My velvet is long enough to cover the ceiling tiles, but not the soffit as well...drats.

Done some research into silver fire...seems like it has to be sprayed? 20 years ago or so I was painting cars, and I think I understand the technique (which is 'dusting' - not how most car finishes are applied, or at least applied back then). Spraying is messy, and it's just too cold 'round here right now to do it in the garage...
Appreciate the time!

Spraying Latex / Acrylic Water based paint is not like spraying Acrylic Car Enamels. Yes, you have to mask off the area and use some common sense in protectibg nearby surfaces, but the overspray from such House paints that does not stick to the surface being painted essentially dries in the air and falls as dust. Only on very close proximity areas where such small amounts of over spray as a HVLP Gun does allow to be produced can reach has the potential to get "sticky", and that won't happen if any care in masking such areas is applied.

Silver Fire is an application that merits the extra effort that spraying takes. You already know that painting a Car finish with a Roller or Brush would produce unacceptable results. Painting the best possible surface for a Screen is no different, plus if metallic content exists in the Paint, it becomes all the more desirable...if indeed mandatory.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #12 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that...it is good to know that the 'cloud' does not stick. SO, if I clear the furniture from the area and put a drop cloth down, do you think it is not necessary to mask off all the walls? I have seen the recommended sprayers; are there any recommended sprayers for compressors? I actually bought one of these, but then returned it when I wasnt too dissatisfied with the wrinkly screen. My compressor has the CFMs needed, and my experience with a wagner was awful about 10 years ago...but I have since obtained a 'real' compressor. The gun is also not HVLP, which will increase overspray (and my desire to do in the garage). Maybe I should just pick up one of the recommended ones now that I think of it. would be nice to spray those white speakers to blend in with the wall. food for thought...thanks!

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post #13 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 07:49 AM
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Masking the surrounding walls and ceiling out at least 4' is usally all that is required. I personally use the really inexpensive 3-pack of 9' x 12' x .7 mil plastic sheets from HD, and for certain, masking 9' out leaves you with absolutely no worries.

Use a 2.0 mil 9' x 12' er for the floor and your......covered. rolleyes.gif

Compressor-fed HVLPs have to deal with water / rust contamination. I loved them when there was no alternative and urged DIY'ers to make the necessary expenditure..

No more. Getting a Graco 2900 with the accessory 1.5 mm Tip for a combined price of $85.00 (...what you'd pay for a "good" HVLP Pressure fed Gun...) and then being able to spray without having to deal with a big Rig, long hoses, Water / Rust Filters, draining the Tank afterwards......sheesh, there just isn't any sense in putting up with all of that unless you already have such a complete rig in hand.

Best Price for a 2900

http://www.amazon.com/Factory-Reconditioned-Graco-HV2900-Paint-Station/dp/B005QQ0AFS?SubscriptionId=AKIAIVHGDKVAW6NH5SWA&tag=factoryfree-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B005QQ0AFS

Other Sources

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRACO-HV2900-39-CFM-450W-HVLP-House-Paint-Spray-Station-Machine-System-Painter-/230791007590
http://www.vminnovations.com/Product_17437/Graco-HV2900-House-Paint-Spray-Station-Refurbished-GRACO2900-RB.html

Needle Kit

http://www.sprayplace.com/hvlp-sprayers/hvlp-sprayers/hvlp/1-5-mm-needle-kit.html

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #14 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Good point, price is about the same...will be working on ordering supplies through amazon and getting substrate ready. I looked at my drywall work, and am inclined to just pick up a doable board, prime it, then paint SF. I have bullseye 123 primer, which I assume is OK? I'll probably spray it just to be safe, that stuff does not sand easily at all but I do like it. Appreciate the advice and support!

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post #15 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 08:38 AM
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BullsEye Primer is good...and it doesn't need nearly the thinning that Kilz2 does to work well with HVLP.

If the Doable Board is pristine, with no mar-marks, then simply wiping it down with a clean, dry "Magic Eraser" is all you need to do, then just "Duster Coat" the SF.

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post #16 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Excellent, thank you! Appreciate the links too...using them now smile.gif

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post #17 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 08:56 AM
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This is what I did with my white ceiling in a non-dedicated HT/living room....No comprimises at all with the black going out from the screen in an 'arch' about 7 feet, with velvet soffet above screen. I now have a bigger screen (115" diag)

The TLH Theater circa 2005....old panoramic shot of my living room/theater. Completely light controlled for daytime viewing on my current JVC RS20 projector....

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post #18 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that, will show to wife!

Just ordered sprayer/rustoleum/needle kit, will try to source rest of the ingredients locally.

When I went and looked a couple of weeks ago it seemed like the top contender available at lowes for substrate was dark brown, in which case priming would be needed (I assume). I said doable, but I dont think we get those here in the northeast.

I am thinking of going with a 2.0 mix...I like running the projector on eco and assume the darker the mix, the more lumens needed. Hopefully the 'shadow box' will address the ambient light issues; otherwise the room is pretty well light controlled. again, thanks!

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post #19 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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found a post of yours MM where you are using the TWH - think I saw that and would like to get if I can find a piece not too beat up. Wanted to watch the video, but it seems it is 'private' now, bummer! No priming needed, that would be nice

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post #20 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 10:46 AM
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Should not be "private" confused.gif Send me the link you tried.

If you hand sort the stack of TWH, usually you can find a really clean sheet.

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post #21 of 32 Old 02-06-2013, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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sent by PM, let me know if you did not get it (or want it here)

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post #22 of 32 Old 02-07-2013, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpoynton View Post

sent by PM, let me know if you did not get it (or want it here)

Man....that was a hoary old link !

Not sure why it was marked Private though.....,

Almost any video I have up showing me painting a Screen would apply to a TWH project though.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1152514/videos-of-stirring-straining-spraying-and-cleaning-up-after-you-spray-silver-fire

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post #23 of 32 Old 02-07-2013, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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That's a heck of a lot slower than I would have thought to go, glad I watched! I'll probably need to forget most everything I thought I knew from spraying cars.

EDIT: I then went back and actually read what you wrote...twice as fast would be more like it, although still a bit slower than spraying a car, seems to me

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post #24 of 32 Old 02-07-2013, 08:56 AM
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As someone who has some past experience, you know that doing a test evaluation as to how well atomization is occurring, and how dense and even a pattern is being laid down is essential as to deciding speed, distance, and overlap.

Because of the above, you could look at several Videos and see differences in all those parameters. Myself, because I know exactly what to look for, I do at time slow down....just enough to lay down more paint to reduce my number of coats. But under those circumstances, I often assist drying with the use of heat and / or Fans. Basically, I cannot expect to be able to convince every / most DIY'ers to follow suit, so that is why Duster Coats help serve to even the odds for NOOBs.

As a general rule, most are instructed to observe a specific (...but somewhat generalized...) flow rate off the Mixing Tool and through a Nylon Sock Strainer. If such dictates are followed, and a 2.0 Needle used, Duster Coats applied at 3' per second laterally are the accepted norm to prevent excessive amounts of paint being laid down and the ensuing Runs that result.

Because water based paints lack the "adhesive stickiness" inherent in Enamels, and also must be thinned to flow easily through a HVLP, the paint will slide and/ or run much easier. Back before I started thinning paint with water, and putting 45 PSI at the Gun, even the 2.2 mm Tip on my Ingersoll Rand HVLP would choke up. Over spray (Dust) was extreme. The painted Surface would present a "Sand-papery" texture. Then, a Auto Painter took me by the ear while I was in Vancouver, BC and showed me how adding water could / does make all the difference. Yes, technique must adjust to the thinner material, but the result was the same as spraying a Enamel or Clear Coat onto a Car. Smooth, almost Glass-like finish.

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post #25 of 32 Old 02-07-2013, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Indeed, I plan on keeping the scrap of TWH for practice - and before I practice on that I'll be practicing on cardboard smile.gif

A question; I plan on shooting the TWH while laying flat on a drop cloth; does this pose any problems? This should help reduce the possibility of runs, but other than the problems with falling dust/particles, is there anything else I need to know about? I could temporarily hang on the wall, spray, then remove add trim and remount if needed. my only reason for asking is that it seems all the examples of spraying are with the substrate hung.

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post #26 of 32 Old 02-07-2013, 10:13 AM
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No...you cannot spray a screen in such a manner. Even if the Gun was capable of such a severe sideways position...AND you could suspend yourself over the material and float between each row, there would be consequences from shooting a pressurized stream down onto a flat surface (Think: Pressure washing)

People would / do "Roll" screens in that manner, because you bet, that does help the thicker application of paint to "level out" without the risks of "sliding" or Runs developing.

Still gotta worry about dust though. rolleyes.gif

That is what you see all spraying get done in the "vertical". And I don't remember reading of anyone who hung their Screen in place, sprayed, and then took it down to mount Trim. In all cases, the trim is applied so that it either "butts up" against the outside edges of the Screen substrate (...because it was glued onto the Wall...) , or overlaps the edges because the Substrate was cut to 2" over size around the edges and hung on the wall via screws band the overlaying Trim then covers said screw heads..

If you paint as directed, there will be NO runs.

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post #27 of 32 Old 02-07-2013, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll have to do a little more research on the trim...again with the car spraying experience, I equated painting horizontal to a hood or roof - no fancy levitation needed, but if the gun wont work in that orientation, it wont work. I have 49.5" of height, so I was planning on having the trim overlap the board, screwing the TWH board onto the back of the velvet-wrapped trim.

Right now, I have cleats in the back of the frame that sit on two screws; the entire screen actually sits on the cabinets below, and the cleats keep it from tipping forward. I am a little averse to screwing through the velvet to attach the trim...and trying to mask the velvet. Maybe there is a solution - you said "hung on the wall via screws band the overlaying Trim then covers said screw heads", but I'm not sure what that means!

Certainly appreciate all your time!

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post #28 of 32 Old 02-07-2013, 07:46 PM
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I will make you up a Diagram showing the "Screwed to the wall process.

If when you painted cars you were using a Gravity Fed Gun, then you know there was a limit to how far the Gun could be tilted, especially has the paint level became lower.

The inexpensive HVLPs are all Siphon Guns, and many pro HVLP Guns are as well. But...they (...almost all Pro Rigs...) use a separate paint Well that is not attached to the Gun itself but via a Feeder Hose. (...except small Detail Guns...) With a Wagner or Graco, since the attached Paint cup will tilt with the Gun, if it tilts to the point the Siphon Tube comes out of the paint, the paint will sputter / stop flowing.

That is always bad..... frown.gif

As for attaching the Wrapped Trim to a Frame, using 1-1/4" Finish nails set in below the velvet using a Nail-Set is the best method. The nails become invisible, and if the Trim must be removed, they pull out with very little effort.

"hung on the wall via screws band the overlaying Trim then covers said screw heads"
......................................."and"..................................................................

Sorry....typo.

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post #29 of 32 Old 02-08-2013, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that, have a nail set and such (and an air finish nailer that is woefully underused). did use siphon feed guns when I painted, just had to make sure the cup was half full before beginning horizontal surfaces.

No need for the diagram, I have seen at least one diagram in another thread and I get it I think. If you are thinking something else and are inclined to share, please feel free for others benefit perhaps more than mine.

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post #30 of 32 Old 02-08-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpoynton View Post

Thanks for that, have a nail set and such (and an air finish nailer that is woefully underused). did use siphon feed guns when I painted, just had to make sure the cup was half full before beginning horizontal surfaces.

No need for the diagram, I have seen at least one diagram in another thread and I get it I think. If you are thinking something else and are inclined to share, please feel free for others benefit perhaps more than mine.

Hey! I just spent an hour making the darn thing, and another hour getting this on my other PC via networked Shared Docs, so I'm gonna post it ! mad.gif

JKA. I'm sure it will help a bit, leastwise for any other lurkers. biggrin.gif


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