LED Edge Lit Zero Edge Comeuppance - 110" diagonal Silver Fire 3.0 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 02-23-2013, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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It's all that, and for well under 1/10 the cost of a BD-ZE. You will note there is NO frame whatsoever....something the much ballyhooed BD-ZE does not / cannot offer.

The project below is Sintra, sprayed with Silver Fire v2.5 3.0

The paint is less that 12 hours old as shown. PJ is a Epson 5010 Living Room Mode / Low Lamp .....not calibrated.

Sintra is hung on a 2x4 Flame with PowerGrab Panel-Trim adhesive only













Make yours today !

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post #2 of 18 Old 02-25-2013, 02:43 PM
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Nice work MM. What kind of leds did you use?
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post #3 of 18 Old 02-25-2013, 02:55 PM
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Awesome job big Man!!!!!!!!!! Have you ever came up with the high gain silver?
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post #4 of 18 Old 02-25-2013, 03:05 PM
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What purpose does having the screen backlit serve? I read that it reduces eye strain and can enhance some of the colors on the screen, but everything I've read here since would suggest that introducing color would change the perceived color on the screen.

"Damn, you can't get black levels like that on your projector!"
- My brother, just before he realized his LED display had died.

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post #5 of 18 Old 02-25-2013, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rengep View Post

Nice work MM. What kind of leds did you use?

I will check and let you know. They were already there and installed on the Frame as instructed when I arrived to paint the screen. me...all i had to really do was Sip beer, Squirt paint, and do a little sanding between the 3rd coat and the last 2 coats.
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Awesome job big Man!!!!!!!!!! Have you ever came up with the high gain silver?

Yes...for selected apps that require absolute maximum ambient Light resistance, there are uber dark SF versions ( 6.0+) but you must still have a minimum of 2400 lumen to use them effectively. Otherwise, there now exists a SF v2.5 3.0 HG version that is a mi- level Gray of approx N7.5 in appearance, yet maintains a gain level of approx1.3. As far as "S-I-L-V-E-R", such a "HG" version has existed for a spell now, and simply uses a slight;y higher percentage of Silver Metallic (10% vs 5%) and preferably a SM with a finer granularity aspect .
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Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post

What purpose does having the screen backlit serve? I read that it reduces eye strain and can enhance some of the colors on the screen, but everything I've read here since would suggest that introducing color would change the perceived color on the screen.

Depends upon the type of screen, the degree of reflection from such lighting that can reach the Screen surface, and just how well everything is all put together.

Such an Edge Lit effect is both pleasing for many to see, and allows for a higher level of light in a darkened room, but with the light source behind the screen's plane of reflection. Light can reflect, but without the influence of a Singularity or large Galaxy, it cannot "bend". So the light around the back edge can only really serve to enhance, not detract for a Screen's performance.

Unless the ceiling or side walls are too close, they are colored too light, and the Back lighting is too bright. The example shown is VERY bright, and despite some effort being made to mitigate the ceiling Reflections, the lighting will eventually get a "LED friendly" Dimmer switch to mute that Sun-like corona. biggrin.gif

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post #6 of 18 Old 02-27-2013, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is the source for the LED lighting. Length is Customizable.

Mfg. http://www.cbconcept.com
http://www.cbconcept.com/120VLEDSMD5050Rope.aspx


Web Merchant:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290787859839&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160

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post #7 of 18 Old 02-27-2013, 10:19 AM
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Thanks MM smile.gif
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post #8 of 18 Old 02-27-2013, 11:33 AM
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MM, Thanks for the quick lesson in particle (or is that wave...) physics smile.gif
Does your expertise know no bounds?

Personally...it is distracting with that much light. Did they go with LEDs that can change color or will they always be "Sun"

"Damn, you can't get black levels like that on your projector!"
- My brother, just before he realized his LED display had died.

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post #9 of 18 Old 02-27-2013, 12:13 PM
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Here is another picture.. Still waiting to put the remote controlled dimmer in, and some darker carpet on the floor..
Also a HUGE thank you to Mississippi for the education and results !
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post #10 of 18 Old 05-22-2013, 10:31 PM
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Sorry to resurect this thread... I was wondering what the frame behind actually looks like? MM has been helping choose the paint and such for my screen but I'm considering doing a zero edge type screen instead of simply screwing the Sintra to the wall.
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post #11 of 18 Old 05-23-2013, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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2 x 4s laid flat with 1.5' between their outside edges and the edges of the Sintra. Like this :






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post #12 of 18 Old 06-17-2013, 09:54 AM
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Hey MM,

I have a couple questions about this screen setup for you as I'm considering doing a similar build. Did you affix the screen to the frame using adhesives only or was that in addition to something else? If so, were you able to do so without any screen bowing without putting a frame in the middle? Also, I couldn't really tell from the photos, but what color did they paint the wall behind the screen to get enough LED reflection without having too much? Lastly, I'm going to try to do this with an Epson 5020, which is a very similar model to the one used in this build. Is the SF v2.5 3.0 you used here going to be the optimal paint for this type of build or would you go with something with a higher ambient rejection? I'd be putting this in a relatively light controlled basement but I'd expect some lights to be on.

I was originally in the market for a commercial screen but after seeing what you've been up to this might just have won me over to try to DIY route!

Thanks!

My theater build: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1484121/my-led-backlit-zero-frame-project
Epson 5020ub /Denon AVR-2113ci / Darbee DVP5000/Definitive Tech SM 350 + Mythos 3 Center + 2 Klipsch RW-12D Subs / Custom 20TB Ubuntu Server + Win 7 HTPC/ Xbox 360 / OUYA / iRule Pro Controlled/120" Screen (16x9)
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post #13 of 18 Old 06-17-2013, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Dave,

Hey...glad to have the chance to "convert you" over to the world of DIY-ism! Below are your Q's with highlighted answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davemex View Post

Hey MM,

I have a couple questions about this screen setup for you as I'm considering doing a similar build. Did you affix the screen to the frame using adhesives only or was that in addition to something else? If so, were you able to do so without any screen bowing without putting a frame in the middle?

I used PowerGrab adhesive. One reason that 2x4s were used was to provide a wider area for adhesion, another reason was that the increased "holding area" se3rved to stiffen the material across it's running width. In the example just above, the one with Insulation, retrospect would prevent me from doing likewise again, as the slight pressure from the Insulation did in fact create a slightly noticeable "outward" bowing. Without such pressure, such would not have happened, and that also applies to the possibility of any "inward" bowing. Of course the material used was 6mm thick Sintra. Should 3mm be used, the absolutely bracing at 1/3rd in from each side should be considered. Personally though...I would advise against using 3mm Sintra at all.

Also, I couldn't really tell from the photos, but what color did they paint the wall behind the screen to get enough LED reflection without having too much?

In the Build featured in this Thread, if I recall correctly, the Wall was painted a medium Tan color. However, the LED Strips used accommodated the use of a Dimmer, so light output was wholly controllable. It is something to not however that wall color selection will work to determine the degree of "correct" color one sees. Casting a Blue light onto a dark brown wall isn't gonna garner one a rich, blue halo of light....whereas casting a Yellow LED light on the same Brown wall will create a more vivid reflection.

Lastly, I'm going to try to do this with an Epson 5020, which is a very similar model to the one used in this build. Is the SF v2.5 3.0 you used here going to be the optimal paint for this type of build or would you go with something with a higher ambient rejection? I'd be putting this in a relatively light controlled basement but I'd expect some lights to be on.

At the most, SF v2.5 3.0 could be considered if appreciable ambient light is going to be present. Even so, screen size is among the most discerning factors when determining how dark one can go, followed closely by PJ Lumen output.

I was originally in the market for a commercial screen but after seeing what you've been up to this might just have won me over to try to DIY route!

Thanks!

BTW....that was 3 Q's.wink.gif

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post #14 of 18 Old 06-17-2013, 12:57 PM
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Awesome! I've seen you helping people in the other forums and figured you'd be the person to ask and you didn't disappoint! Thanks so much for the prompt response. I started with two questions but as I wrote they just kept coming (and will probably continue to do so once I get started)! Right now I'm thinking of doing a 120" diagonal 16:9 screen with the seating area 14-16' back (the basement has plenty of depth and could go closer or further if needed). At this point I'm planning on using RGB LEDs that can do different colors (more for show when not seriously watching movies) along with a grey wall so multiple colors can be seen.

On the topic of the material, so you'd recommend 6mm Sintra without insulation to prevent bowing? Maybe with one support bar in the middle to prevent inward bowing?

Thanks again for the help!

My theater build: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1484121/my-led-backlit-zero-frame-project
Epson 5020ub /Denon AVR-2113ci / Darbee DVP5000/Definitive Tech SM 350 + Mythos 3 Center + 2 Klipsch RW-12D Subs / Custom 20TB Ubuntu Server + Win 7 HTPC/ Xbox 360 / OUYA / iRule Pro Controlled/120" Screen (16x9)
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post #15 of 18 Old 06-17-2013, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Your Welcome! I do tend to delve into most every aspect of Home Theater Building, doing such stuff myself on a somewhat regular basis, but DIY Screens in my primary Stomping Grounds. We do of course experience a degree of controversy on this Forum at times, but in truth, it can get far more "hairy" elsewhere because opinionated individuals abound on the Dedicated "Build" Forums.

If the Sintra is placed Flat across the Frame, it's inherent stiffness will prevent bowing in either direction.

The best way to get the material absolutely flat across the framing is to place the Sintra "viewing side" down, position the Frame on top...centered, mark the inside / outside perimeter of the frame using a Pencil, then apply a generous but "smoothed and spread" amount of adhesive into the marked out area. Now carefully lower the Frame onto the Sintra, and press firmly.

Doing this prevents you accidentally adhering the Sintra onto the Frame with any type of bend incorporated. If you decide you want to use any central braces, then you must make absolutely certai9n that they are straight, not twisted, and each connecting end is flush with the exterior Frame.

Perhaps the singular most important thing to do is to use enough adhesive, but to have it spread out and leveled so the material lays flat on all points.

And lastly...the selection of a neutral Gray for a Wall color is an excellent choice, as it is the one color you can go fairly dark with yet maintain the highest possible degree of non-pushed, color correct reflection.
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post #16 of 18 Old 03-26-2014, 12:13 PM
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Sorry to bump thread.

 

First off I wanna say MississippiMan your wisdom and help around here is quite impressive. Thank You for everything you do!!

 

My previous plan was to buy a Panasonic ZT65 plasma screen until they got discontinued and I found a lot your work in this awesome forum a while back. This will be my very first projector setup.  I'm finally going projector setup after my son was diagnosed with Nystagmus a visual condition that impairs his vision a lot. Me and my wife are always seeing our son (4 yr old)  8 inches from 60 inch plasma. This should help even doctor agrees.

 

My setup.

I just picked up 2 Dibond sheets 60X120 and 60X108 yestarday. The full sheet might be to long for 16x9 but if too small I'd be stuck. Can I cut it down myself or do I have to bring it back to get cut if needed? My plan is to use smaller sheet in master bedroom later on.

My Projector  for now will be Optoma HD131xe which just got delivered 10 minutes ago, I will be moving this one to master bedroom after I get this figured out and upgrade to a better model in the near future.

Room dimension is about 13x14.5 ft section that is open to dining/kitchen area. hoping to throw at 13.5 ft if possible. I can go farther but don't really want to mount in eating area.

I am going to be spraying the screen with either SF 3.0 or Black Widow paint. I was thinking BW paint for its easy to get ingredients but I'm not sure on the performance comparison.

Room walls are medium tan(soon to be painted medium gray. I am also going to paint the back wall dark grey like MM suggested instead of black) Ceiling will stay white since this is a living room as well. 

I'm waiting on weather to warm up a bit since spring doesn't want to get here ever.

I'm trying to decide between 3 HVLP setups Graco 9.5 vs Fuji Q4 vs Apollo 1050vr. In case your'e wondering why the overkill I plan on doing a lot of other home projects with setup. 

 

Now the reason I'm replying here is because I want this exact same setup but for the life of me can't figure out how to get this setup hung. my questions are.

 

1. How do I frame onto wall first and get panel glued onto frame without bending/bowing and keeping it centered at the same time?

If screen ever had to be moved or adjusted, how would that be possible since screen is glued onto frame attached to wall already?

 

2. I like the screen MM mounted using screws for it easy removal and simplicity but don't want the screws revealed for my zero edge effect.

 

3. MM if I glue the frame to the screen face on floor to prevent bowing and so I can center it more easily, how would I hang such a heavy setup?

 

 

My Final question is how do I get my zero edge screen up on wall with more pro than cons? Meaning how can screen be movable or adjustable for future setups in different projectors? 

 

I would Like a screen as close to as beautiful as yours MississppiMan.

 

Please help guide me with your wisdom.

 

Thank you in advance.

Regards 

Jin

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post #17 of 18 Old 03-27-2014, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiahlee View Post

Sorry to bump thread.

First off I wanna say MississippiMan your wisdom and help around here is quite impressive. Thank You for everything you do!!

Thank you! And welcome aboard!
Quote:
My previous plan was to buy a Panasonic ZT65 plasma screen until they got discontinued and I found a lot your work in this awesome forum a while back. This will be my very first projector setup.  I'm finally going projector setup after my son was diagnosed with Nystagmus a visual condition that impairs his vision a lot. Me and my wife are always seeing our son (4 yr old)  8 inches from 60 inch plasma. This should help even doctor agrees.

Oh, you bet! My own Father, who had severe forward vision degeneration due to retinal bleeding was able to indulge himself quite well in watching his favorite show, Jeopardy when he did so with a 120" diagonal screen.
Quote:
My setup.
I just picked up 2 Dibond sheets 60X120 and 60X108 yestarday. The full sheet might be to long for 16x9 but if too small I'd be stuck. Can I cut it down myself or do I have to bring it back to get cut if needed? My plan is to use smaller sheet in master bedroom later on.

60" x 106" gives you a 122" diagonal screen. Have it cut, so you can be crtain it is square on all sides and the edges are smooth.
Quote:
My Projector  for now will be Optoma HD131xe which just got delivered 10 minutes ago, I will be moving this one to master bedroom after I get this figured out and upgrade to a better model in the near future.
Room dimension is about 13x14.5 ft section that is open to dining/kitchen area. hoping to throw at 13.5 ft if possible. I can go farther but don't really want to mount in eating area.

Well everything about your Screen's size is dependent on Throw distance. 13.3" is the minimum for 122" diagonal, and you don't want to be at the absolute extreme end of your Throw (Len's face to the screen surface. 2" leeway isn't a lot either, so if ossible, give yourself a full 6" difference (13' 9")
Quote:
I am going to be spraying the screen with either SF 3.0 or Black Widow paint. I was thinking BW paint for its easy to get ingredients but I'm not sure on the performance comparison.

Silver Fire has more gain, better Black to White value, and much less visible graininess. (...though spraying BW helps it out a lot...) Far more people have experinced great results w/SF but for some, "easy" can spell the difference, and make up for differences in performance.
Quote:
Room walls are medium tan(soon to be painted medium gray. I am also going to paint the back wall dark grey like MM suggested instead of black) Ceiling will stay white since this is a living room as well. 

OW....In truth, the back wall can also be medium Gray....it really does not come into play as far as reflection, only "appearance", and in the dark....appearance doesn't count for much.
But that big, white reflector of a white Ceiling..... frown.gif That will be a Buzz Kill unless the screen is mounted at least 24: down from it at minimum. Painting the Ceiling even a very light Gray will help immensely. Light Gray Ceiling....slightly Darker Gray Walls will look great
Quote:
I'm waiting on weather to warm up a bit since spring doesn't want to get here ever.
I'm trying to decide between 3 HVLP setups Graco 9.5 vs Fuji Q4 vs Apollo 1050vr. In case your'e wondering why the overkill I plan on doing a lot of other home projects with setup.

It's all about available (...and adjustable...) pressaure and having interchangable needle sizes. 1.0 mm for screens and fine detail oriented projects, 1.5 -2.0 mm needles for heavier paints. 
Quote:
Now the reason I'm replying here is because I want this exact same setup but for the life of me can't figure out how to get this setup hung. my questions are.

1. How do I frame onto wall first and get panel glued onto frame without bending/bowing and keeping it centered at the same time?
If screen ever had to be moved or adjusted, how would that be possible since screen is glued onto frame attached to wall already?

2. I like the screen MM mounted using screws for it easy removal and simplicity but don't want the screws revealed for my zero edge effect.

3. MM if I glue the frame to the screen face on floor to prevent bowing and so I can center it more easily, how would I hang such a heavy setup?

The affair needn't be all that heavy, and it can be hung using French Cleats. The only real logistical issue is the Edge Lighting...and using thin Strip LEDs instead of standard Rope Liights helps. But the power source will have to be set behind the screen in a available recess, so some design planning and pre-prep will be required. If the wall to be used is an Exterior wall, that will make it a bit more difficult....but not impossible if you have any degree of Drywall skills.
Quote:
My Final question is how do I get my zero edge screen up on wall with more pro than cons? Meaning how can screen be movable or adjustable for future setups in different projectors? 

French Cleatin' Dude.
Quote:
I would Like a screen as close to as beautiful as yours MississppiMan.

Please help guide me with your wisdom.

I can only try....but try I will.
Quote:
Thank you in advance.
Regards 
Jin

You got it...and more to follow soon.

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post #18 of 18 Old 03-27-2014, 01:54 PM
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Thank you for all the helpful info MM. I'm taking the sheets back to get cut today. A few more questions. 

1. Is primer needed for the Dibond sheets? If so what product  do you recommend?

2. If hanging frame attached to screen on floor, do you suggest framing with 2x4 or a different material? wondering if 2x4 will be straight enough and will weight be an issue. But those french cleats do look solid  so weight shouldn't be a problem.

The 2x4 setup you mentioned does have a lot of area for the adhesive.

 

3. The picture above with frame, led, and insulation installed onto wall first, how was that set up installed? how did you glue screen onto frame vertically to stay and to dry while being upright?

how will that screen ever be moved if needed?

4. Do I attach led to frame while on the floor or wait till screen/frame are mounted on wall.


So me and the family tried projector just onto the tan walls yesterday,  and wow the image is more clear than I thought it would be. We were very impressed, wow.
I can't wait to project onto a  sprayed screen.

I'm going to try my best to get all the ingredients/material  to spray SF V2 3.0 for my main screen, and spray another sample BW to compare and see what is the difference. 
In your opinion how does the SF V2 compare to a crazy priced Black Diamond? I saw one on demo locally and it looked very nice. Can't wait to have my screens sprayed to see the results.

Once I figure out the exact procedure for my frame to screen situation she will be going up real soon.

I will post some pictures once I get this project going to see what you think.

Sorry just trying my best to visualized everything.
 

Thank You again 

Regards,

Jin

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