DIY screen build for Benq W1070 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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im starting a build thread for my screen. i also need some help deciding a few things.

im going with the Benq W1070. seems to be a great fit for my budget and room. seating distance is 9'. i dont want to do a painted screen, so spandex or some other material will be used.

first question. what would be the best screen size for my seating distance? i was going to go with 106" but from reading it seems like that may be too big? i do watch a lot of TV. almost all at least 720p though.

also what material will be best? this is a basement with controlled lighting, but there will normally be some lights on. Acoustically transparent is not necessary, but i have thought about an inwall center. im using one of my Crites CS-1T's on its side right now. works pretty good actually, but ill probably build a real center in the future. Theres some interesting SEOS MTM plans coming soon.

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post #2 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 08:08 AM
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Hi again!

Not sure why you read that 106" would be too big if throw distance concerns are solved using the W1070.

Viewing distance of 9' (108") away from a screen that measures "only" just a bit over 93" wide is not out of hand these days, what with 1080p resolution. Also, total submersion in 3D depends upon one sitting closer.

As for material, well, Spandex, White Milliskin over Light Silver Milliskin has been shown to work great at 135" and 2400 lumen output, so 106" w/2000 should not be an issue. From a Throw of 9'-3" you get 28 fl in Normal Lamp mode, so even when 3D is kicked in you can expect at minimum 14-16 fl, which is plenty when watching such content in a light controlled room.

As for the potential of going "AT" a build that places the back layer within 1/2" of the face of your In-Wall Center should provide you with a more than clear enough passage of sound, especially if your careful to stretch the rear layer of Light Silver fairly tight.

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post #3 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 09:04 AM
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If I were on the market for inexpensive screen material I would seriously consider Dazian fabrics, specifically coated celtic cloth (CCC).
It's as cheap as spandex and measured well in terms of color neutrality. It is white though. If you want gray screen then you may have to look elsewhere

AFAIK, AT properties of CCC were not tested by independent party. I hope a sample piece eventually makes it to Tux for testing.

Good luck with your project
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post #4 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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is this what your talking about? http://www.dazian.com/product-details/?sku=Hvywt+Coated+Celtic122&variantSku=&categoryId=&subCategoryId=&catalog=Dazian

im not sure if white or gray is better for my application. also, how many yards would i need? 3? anyone else use this yet?

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post #5 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

is this what your talking about? http://www.dazian.com/product-details/?sku=Hvywt+Coated+Celtic122&variantSku=&categoryId=&subCategoryId=&catalog=Dazian

im not sure if white or gray is better for my application. also, how many yards would i need? 3? anyone else use this yet?

As you stated above, if Lights will be on at times, anything white is not going to be satisfactory let alone make you feel your watching a quality image.

Something Gray rules under those circumstances, and luckily your limited size screen allows you to consider any surface at/above 0.8 gain.

However, because the White / Silver combo I suggested results in the reflective surface being able to handle modest, controlled ambient light.

In the end, examining just where and how your lighting affects your screen when on will determine how much importance must be given as to what type projection surface is best....baring any decision to pursue AT properties.

Insert AT needs and things get decidedly more limited, choice-wise.
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If I were on the market for inexpensive screen material I would seriously consider Dazian fabrics, specifically coated celtic cloth (CCC).
It's as cheap as spandex and measured well in terms of color neutrality.

At over $20.00 yard "cut" that is not true at all.

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post #6 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

is this what your talking about? http://www.dazian.com/product-details/?sku=Hvywt+Coated+Celtic122&variantSku=&categoryId=&subCategoryId=&catalog=Dazian

im not sure if white or gray is better for my application. also, how many yards would i need? 3? anyone else use this yet?

As you stated above, if Lights will be on at times, anything white is not going to be satisfactory let alone make you feel your watching a quality image.

Something Gray rules under those circumstances, and luckily your limited size screen allows you to consider any surface at/above 0.8 gain.

However, because the White / Silver combo I suggested results in the reflective surface being able to handle modest, controlled ambient light.

In the end, examining just where and how your lighting affects your screen when on will determine how much importance must be given as to what type projection surface is best....baring any decision to pursue AT properties.

Insert AT needs and things get decidedly more limited, choice-wise.
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

If I were on the market for inexpensive screen material I would seriously consider Dazian fabrics, specifically coated celtic cloth (CCC).
It's as cheap as spandex and measured well in terms of color neutrality.

Not sure where that determination is coming from. At over $20.00 yard "cut"to the size needed, that is not true at all**. And there is no way that material will "assemble" onto a frame as easily as Spandex.

**I do note that it comes in 122" "widths" though...so 2 yards would be all that is needed for a screen the size of Brian's

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post #7 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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There wil be no direct light. The lights are either sconses on the same wall as the screen and/or overhead can lights.

Ok then. The spandex is sounding like it would be best? And silver?

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post #8 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

is this what your talking about? http://www.dazian.com/product-details/?sku=Hvywt+Coated+Celtic122&variantSku=&categoryId=&subCategoryId=&catalog=Dazian

im not sure if white or gray is better for my application. also, how many yards would i need? 3? anyone else use this yet?

To be honest I am not sure which one is the original CCC. They've been changing names, I suspect for marketing purposes. It maybe that the "3D" is the one. You may also ask Chris Seymour which one he tested.

It's 122" wide. You will probably need only 2 yards or even less if they sell fractional.
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post #9 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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am i looking for the matte or shiny milliskin. also, how much should i buy?

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post #10 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

There wil be no direct light. The lights are either sconses on the same wall as the screen and/or overhead can lights.

Ok then. The spandex is sounding like it would be best? And silver?

Sconces that are on the same wall as the Screen and that do not direct all light above and/or below them will affect the screen if on.....absolutely. In truth, Sconces do not belong on a Screen Wall. They are not Porch Lights, but all too often it's the cosmetic appeal of bracketing the screen that takes hold first, based on aesthetic appeal only, and then later with actual use, it's shown just how inappropriate they actually are. The only saving grace to using them on a Screen wall would be their being heavily shielded Sconces, designed to direct light ONLY Up/Down...but nothing to each side.

Cans that have directionality built in (Eye Balls - Half Lids - Wall Wash ) are going to be best. You cannot discount nor appreciate the difference any light than can actually strike the screen can make as far as lessening the degree of contrast on the screen.

I hope you do in fact still have some flexibility in your Lighting arrangements. Bluntly stated, if lighting is not well thought out, nothing discussed so far will suffice. Instead you will have to resort to a truly effective, Ambient Light "Painted Screen" application.
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am i looking for the matte or shiny milliskin. also, how much should i buy?

Matte Milliskin.

For your screen you will need 2 yards minimum of each color. That will entail stretching the Spandex 18" beyond it's 72" length....no problem there at all.

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post #11 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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ok. 2 yards each of white and light silver milliskin from Spandex World then. i can dim all the lights and have not problem turning them all the way off. i know any ambient light will hurt its performance.

how well will this screen stack up to something like the Vapex screens?

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post #12 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 12:38 PM
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Here is what I learned about spandex from people who actualy tested it

The only Spandex that measured "Acceptably neutral" is Rough Moleskin silver.

Using multiple layers combines the optical shortcomings of each material making calibration much more difficult if not impossible. Ask smokarz about his experience calibrating white over silver moleskin. Using single layer or black backer if absolutely needed may be a better choice.

Under incandescent ambient light the picture will likely have reddish hue because spandex has higher reflectivity in red portion of the spectrum.


Now, this is not to say that spandex is a bad choice in you situation. But i would suggest not to make the decision solely based on MM's recommendations.
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post #13 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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gotcha. eh, at ~ $40 ill give it a shot. if theres problems, i can always take it off and try another surface right? as long as i have the frame.

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post #14 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

gotcha. eh, at ~ $40 ill give it a shot. if theres problems, i can always take it off and try another surface right? as long as i have the frame.

Myself, I have never been afraid of suggesting anything others have reported success with, and there is nothing wrong with doing so, especially when you know and accept that ....as you stated so well... YMMV.

By far and away, no one I have ever helped has been told anything other than to report their finding on how satisfied...or not they are. Many do exactly that. Most all are also very courteous and if they have any issues, they address them in a courteous manner.

Mostly.

brian6751, whatever you decide on to try / do, it's only your own report that will matter. Good luck.

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post #15 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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im sure it will look great MM. i appreciate all your help. i do want to put a 3" border around it so the spandex will have to stretch over 111" actually. will 2 yards still be enough?

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post #16 of 28 Old 03-17-2013, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Also. Where are you guys getting your poplar? Home Depot, Lowes, etc.?

As far as my expectations. The best display I have had is my current one. A Samsung D7000 series plasma which is known to have a great picture. I'm not expecting the Benq to match the black levels, especially when the lights are on, but I am expecting it to be close in the other areas such as color, skintones, sharpness, etc.

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post #17 of 28 Old 03-17-2013, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

im sure it will look great MM. i appreciate all your help. i do want to put a 3" border around it so the spandex will have to stretch over 111" actually. will 2 yards still be enough?

For the rear layer, that will certainly suffice. For the Front, and since agressive stretching will open the waeve more and allow an undue amount of light pass-through, the additional $9.00 expense for another yard isn't a high premium for having more than enough.

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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Also. Where are you guys getting your poplar? Home Depot, Lowes, etc.?

Home Depot is usually the best, and least expensive source. You just have to carefully hand pick your stock.
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As far as my expectations. The best display I have had is my current one. A Samsung D7000 series plasma which is known to have a great picture. I'm not expecting the Benq to match the black levels, especially when the lights are on, but I am expecting it to be close in the other areas such as color, skintones, sharpness, etc.

And you will find that it will be. Among the first thing you will notice with the White Milliskin is the almost perfect smoothness (ie: lack of noticeable weave ) of the surface. And if stretched minimally, it's very tightness will result in optimal reflectivity.

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post #18 of 28 Old 03-17-2013, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks. also, i have noticed some people put a stand off border around the edge so the spandex is not touching the center bracing. supposedly so you dont see the center bracing through the screen. is this necessary?

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post #19 of 28 Old 03-17-2013, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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also, how will this build stack up to the cheaper Vapex type screens?

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post #20 of 28 Old 03-18-2013, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

thanks. also, i have noticed some people put a stand off border around the edge so the spandex is not touching the center bracing. supposedly so you dont see the center bracing through the screen. is this necessary?

Most either do the "raised edge" thingee, or mount the center braces slightly recessed. If the frame has in any way a twist, or develops one, and the center support /s touch the stretched material, you could have a bulged or slightly raised area that might show up under the PJ's light.

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also, how will this build stack up to the cheaper Vapex type screens?

In as much as we don't make direct comparisons or reviews of the differences of such, it becomes a matter of supposition. A Mfg Screen might be more ideally suited for some solely on the grounds that it is is "Buy, Assemble, Hang, & Shoot. For a true DIY'er, even small trade offs are worth the "DIY'ing propers" one gets by DIY. And sometimes there are no real trade offs, and build-effort is the only consideration.

The inexpensive Screens are usually all vinyl...sometimes polyethylene sheets. Obviously no shiny sheen is desirable, so a very slight texture is introduced.(...this doesn't always happen though... frown.gif ) Also, whatever color is introduced in the Mfg process has to be close enough to neutral to not make the image look ghastly "out of the Box" or impossible to calibrate after hanging. All that and how it gels depends upon the Mfg itself, and Re-Branded off-brand Mfg Screens can carry the same risks as DIY versions...or more since you have no control over what you get delivered after paying for it. And returning any "Shipped" Mfg Screen is an ordeal....believe that.

One just has to read, absorb, and determine if DIY is their forte'. Many will spend more than a Mfg Screen's performance is worth to avoid any real effort beyond basic assembly. DIY it, and you often get much more performance value per effort / cost expended. But since the end results are tied to human effort and potential error, a "Crash & Burn" scenario is always a possibility.

The latter is why over-viewing actual End Users experiences and end results is vital when considering anything....Mfg or DIY in nature. I always facor DIY. Others swear Mfg is more dependable. You have the last say.

To get any real ascertation of quality / issues, you have to go over to the "Screens Forum" and use the AVS Search feature to get some Thread links

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post #21 of 28 Old 03-18-2013, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I just bought a Elite screen.

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post #22 of 28 Old 03-18-2013, 03:03 PM
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I hope you did your research, man. I've heard some nasty things about Elite screens losing tension, getting wrinkly beyond repair, color uniformity issues and the company not doing much to fix them:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/585554/the-official-elite-screen-thread/1410

Quick tip: Write down the serial number BEFORE you mount your screen just in case you have any problems and keep your damned receipt!

I hope it works out for you. I'm sure there are many happy owners, it's just the unhappy ones that show up to the forums and gripe about their problems.

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post #23 of 28 Old 03-18-2013, 03:08 PM
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Yeah....Elite doesn't live up to the name. Honestly, the lowly FocuPix has been seen to be better at almost 1/2 the price.

I really didn't want to dissuade Brian against his choice....once made. But if he reads some posts from people not fixated on the qualities of DIY apps, who knows....?

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post #24 of 28 Old 03-18-2013, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Well. The thing is the whole DIY screen thing is confusing to me. There's no real good answer as to what is best for me and I'm not willing to paint. A lot of these materials and ideas are either not tested or are just now being tested.

It also seems like the bang for the buck isn't really there. Not nearly at the level I have found it to be for speakers and subs. I spent a lot of money on those until I learned how to build my own that stomp the store bought ones.

If I'm not happy, ill be back in here reading and investigating. You can count on that.

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post #25 of 28 Old 03-18-2013, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
But if he reads some posts from people not fixated on the qualities of DIY apps, who knows....?

Are you seriously going to go there? The OP knows that spandex really is still in its infancy and there's enough information out there to question both it's visual and acoustical abilities. I wish I had been able to point him in the right screen direction had he made mention that's where he was heading. As said before, I'm sure his screen will turn out to be fine.

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post #26 of 28 Old 03-18-2013, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Well. The thing is the whole DIY screen thing is confusing to me. There's no real good answer as to what is best for me and I'm not willing to paint. A lot of these materials and ideas are either not tested or are just now being tested.

It also seems like the bang for the buck isn't really there. Not nearly at the level I have found it to be for speakers and subs. I spent a lot of money on those until I learned how to build my own that stomp the store bought ones.

If I'm not happy, ill be back in here reading and investigating. You can count on that.


I agreed here. You're definitely not going to get the same level of DIY speakers/subs bangs for bucks with the DIY screens.

The simplest and most cost effective DIY yourself option would be to paint your wall with a can of $20 off the shelf paints (there are a few out there that were tested very neutral and used by many in this forum, and elsewhere).

Once you get to the Spandex, paint mixes, buying Sintra, building frames, spray gun, etc, etc. The cost adds up quickly and you're probably ends up around $150 plus.

With so many budget screens options out there in the $300 range, it's probably a better option to just buy one instead (in some cases). Good luck with the Elite.
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post #27 of 28 Old 03-18-2013, 08:45 PM
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Also depends if you already have tools. I already have an HVLP gun and clamps and bread nailer and stapler etc. and in DIY I don't understand using expensive frame material and the splines. I just stapled. My frame cost me about $7 and the rest was spandex. I'm surprised to see how much people are spending on brackets and such. DIY should be more innovative.
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post #28 of 28 Old 03-18-2013, 09:10 PM
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Also depends if you already have tools. I already have an HVLP gun and clamps and bread nailer and stapler etc. and in DIY I don't understand using expensive frame material and the splines. I just stapled. My frame cost me about $7 and the rest was spandex. I'm surprised to see how much people are spending on brackets and such. DIY should be more innovative.


True.

Believe me, after stapling black cloth onto the border trims for my ~92 inch screen, I've opted for the spline method with the spandex build. It was a lot easier on the hands, but obviously cost a bit more. tongue.gif
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