Bang for your buck Screen Suggestions. Open to all.. Paint, Fabric, Vinyl... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 03-27-2013, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello All,
I am a noob to home theater and made the jump buying my fist projector. I am currently projecting on the wall but would like to get something up fairly quick for cheap. I like the idea of doing the DIY screen guessing that would be the bang for your buck but after looking at this forum I am overwhelmed, and usure with all the choices, which direction to go. I also have found the Jamestown solution interesting and would be interested in getting opinions on manufactured solutions if you feel its a better bang for your buck over a DIY solution.

Here are my details:

Projector: Viewsonic Pro8200

Room Lighting: Living room with lots of light from all directions. covering with curtains and blinds but not a lot of control.

Throw: about 15ft ceiling mounted

Room Condition: All white walls, light carpet, high vaulted ceiling.

Room size: 17'x30' (projecting on long side but to one side of the room.)

Viewing distance: 12ft

Budget: under $200

Screen size: 92"


Projection on wall between two windows.



Back of room. Projector at top left of photo.



Back of room. Opposite of picture above. lots of light from other room and upstairs.


Thanks everyone in advance for any help.
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post #2 of 31 Old 03-27-2013, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so I found the beginners guide threw another post. I think I'm going to go with getting a Tiffany white board from lowes and paint it. Can anyone give me a recommendation on the paint I should go with. I guessing a gray is what I need and because I'm going to lowes I will probably get the valspar house brand. I just need help with the base and tinting to go with based on my room conditions and projector. Please frown.gif
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post #3 of 31 Old 03-28-2013, 05:10 AM
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First off you must re-think your Throw / Screen size. To get 92": you need a minimum Throw of 14' - 3", and since you do not want to use the PJ at the absolute Top end of the Zoom Range, you need to move in at least 6" closer to 13' - 7"

Since the Throw and screen size work together to give you a high level of Foot Lambert off the screen at 1.0 gain (31 fl), you can select a Neutral Gray of the 8.0 Munsel range. Something along the order of 202-202-202, That would equate to being just a bit over 0.8 gain which would still provide 24 foot Lamberrts.

If the paint Tech can use the following figures, the formula as listed is slightly darker than the SW Tint below it.

248 Lamp Black
056 Brown Oxide
024 Medium Yellow

Sherwin Williams Tint.

204 205 202 - SW 7064 PASSIVE

Purchase a Flat White Interior Enamel Deep Base

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post #4 of 31 Old 03-28-2013, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the reply. I have a few noob questions.

Why is it bad to have the zoom set all the way to the top of the zoom range? I do have it set like that and it just fits within the width between the two windows with a few inches to spare on each side. The PJ is actually mounted on the back wall on an arm. I currently don't have the arm all the way out so I have some room for adjustment forward. My screen just needs to fit within the space between the windows so the throw i stated and the 92" screen size is more of a ballpark. I'm now more concerned about the zoom set at the top as you mentioned. How much leeway do I have with that setting?

If I go with a whiteboard can I paint silver fire over the n8 paint at a later date? Would there be a difference in quality vs sintra?

Thx again.
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post #5 of 31 Old 03-28-2013, 07:54 AM
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Im interested too in why you shouldn't have the zoom set to maximum...

That was indeed what I planned on doing when watching 2.35 in my CIH format. I hadn't seen anything indicating that is was a bad thing...

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post #6 of 31 Old 03-28-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchdzj View Post

Thank you for the reply. I have a few noob questions.

Why is it bad to have the zoom set all the way to the top of the zoom range? I do have it set like that and it just fits within the width between the two windows with a few inches to spare on each side. The PJ is actually mounted on the back wall on an arm. I currently don't have the arm all the way out so I have some room for adjustment forward. My screen just needs to fit within the space between the windows so the throw i stated and the 92" screen size is more of a ballpark. I'm now more concerned about the zoom set at the top as you mentioned. How much leeway do I have with that setting?

If I go with a whiteboard can I paint silver fire over the n8 paint at a later date? Would there be a difference in quality vs sintra?

Thx again.


While some PJs produce maximum Lumen output at Full Zoom...others actually lose a small percentage. Still others can introduce a slight distortion at the edges called "Barreling" ...and while the edges of the projected beam might actually be straight, the image wiithin can show a slight degree of 'flaring" along the extreme side edges and each corner. Such would be most noticeable when a straight line goes into / out of the edge of the screen. PJ optics have greatly improved, so for most, if not all situations, optically abhorrent image distortion is less likely.

Unless the image, through poorly done or necessary PJ placement requires the use of Keystone correction. Then things can and often do deteriorate to a point is does become visually obvious.

So, all that says is that Lumen output concerns at Full zoom are not the real abiding issue as much as placement concerns are.

In mitchdzj's situation, he has a DLP unit that has no Len shift. So he must do three things exactly right to get a squared image that also fits precisely in his desired screen sized Framing.

1. Place the PJ precisely perpendicular to the wall, with the Lens centered exactly within the sides of the Screen's width dimension.

2. He has also be certain the Lens is precisely at the right height "above" the top edge of the screen, and also is completely level.

3. The complete lack of any further ability to adjust Zoom means that whatever size his positioning at Full Zoom" allows is the biggest it will ever be. Reducing the Throw even a very few inches allows for at least a bare minimum amount of adjustment.

.
Quote:
That was indeed what I planned on doing when watching 2.35 in my CIH format. I hadn't seen anything indicating that is was a bad thing...

As long as you see none of the issues listed above crop up, your probably "all good", and getting optimal lumen output delivered to the bigger (wider) 2.35:1 formatted image. Under all circumstances where a 16:9 image is chaged out for a 2.35:1 image, and is done without using a true Anamorphic Lens and "Stretching Correction", a loss of up to 30% of Lumen output is the result because that amount of percentage of the available light a 16:9 PJ puts out is wasted as "Masked". Under those circumstances, absolutely you want to place the PJ just as close as possible to it's minimum Throw. But even so, allowing for a few extra inches of Zoom adjustment is always a wise proposition, especially if one cannot place the PJ first, shoot an image, and then mark off the [perimeter of the screen's outside edges. Even doing that, it is wise to still then frame the painted area just a inch or so smaller in from the original marked-off image size.

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post #7 of 31 Old 03-28-2013, 09:10 AM
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From what I have read you don't want the zoom set to maximum because of the possibility of picture distortion, especially near the corners of the image. It is best to keep the zoom set in the middle and adjust the throw distance and screen size accordingly. If the zoom is set to the middle it also allow you to make fine adjustments when required.
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post #8 of 31 Old 03-28-2013, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahajr143 View Post

From what I have read you don't want the zoom set to maximum because of the possibility of picture distortion, especially near the corners of the image. It is best to keep the zoom set in the middle and adjust the throw distance and screen size accordingly. If the zoom is set to the middle it also allow you to make fine adjustments when required.

I get that, for general purposes, but my build will periodically zoom from 16x9 to 2.39. When that happens my PJ will zoom to 2.0x but only long enough to watch those movies.

"Damn, you can't get black levels like that on your projector!"
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post #9 of 31 Old 03-28-2013, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahajr143 View Post

From what I have read you don't want the zoom set to maximum because of the possibility of picture distortion, especially near the corners of the image. It is best to keep the zoom set in the middle and adjust the throw distance and screen size accordingly. If the zoom is set to the middle it also allow you to make fine adjustments when required.

The above was certainly sage advice a few years back. These days you can place the PJs much closer to the front end of the available zoom due to the greatly improved optics most have.

But that is not a absolute.

Even so, "Old School" thinking still seems to prevade many postings....making people sit further back than necessary, place PJs in less than ideal locations, and really a raft of other things that have in fact changed for the better over the years.

That is to be expected though, because in truth, not a lot of members have eitjher changed their Set-ups repeatedly, or done enough varied installations to really be aware of how much things have changed. That is why interaction between us all can pay some real dividends as far as someone achieving what the title of this Thread is aspiring to represent.
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post #10 of 31 Old 03-28-2013, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you MMan for the explanation on zoom and outlining the concerns over placement. I do believe my placement is on target based on what you have outlined.

As far as material. Any comment on whiteboard vs sintra or RePainting the whiteboard in the future? Or should I consider another material based on my current budget?
I do like what what I'm reading about Silver Fire and as of right now my ultimate goal would be doing that when I can spend the extra money and time on it. Also, what formula of Silver Fire do you recommend for my room?

Thx Again!
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post #11 of 31 Old 03-28-2013, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

That is to be expected though, because in truth, not a lot of members have eitjher changed their Set-ups repeatedly, or done enough varied installations to really be aware of how much things have changed. That is why interaction between us all can pay some real dividends as far as someone achieving what the title of this Thread is aspiring to represent.

Well said. Trying to keep things relevant based on current tech is what keeps it all going. I will be sure to report on what I end up doing with the screen as well as fill specs on my setup. I do see the value in reading older posts but in all reality the current interaction with veterans around here will yield the most current, accurate, and experienced opinions for us noobs to make good decisions. Thank you for the effort you all put in.
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post #12 of 31 Old 03-29-2013, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Nobody has suggestions for material for me? frown.gif

As I stated. I'm open to any material surface. I see lots of talk about spandex. How does this compare to painting?
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post #13 of 31 Old 03-29-2013, 10:09 AM
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Aside from the other "issues" MM pointed out....Here would be my best bet for surface and how to handle it.

Your screen is small enough to get 1 piece of Sintra and then paint it with a mix to achieve the best gain/contrast. That is my suggestion over spandex because of the additional gain you'll be able to achieve. You cannot paint spandex and at best you're looking at approx .85 gain with it.
Thats my recommendation over BOC because of the ease of painting Sintra vs stretching BOC across a frame, then painting it.

Sintra = Easiest to paint and hang, with the paint giving you additional gain and contrast to deal with your light issues. I'll let the experts chime in with exactly what paint mixture/forumla to use.

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post #14 of 31 Old 03-29-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mitchdzj View Post

Nobody has suggestions for material for me? frown.gif

As I stated. I'm open to any material surface. I see lots of talk about spandex. How does this compare to painting?

As far as being ideal for most instances that do not involve needing acoustical transparency there is no advantage as far as visual performance as relates to gain ...especially if you lack sufficient lumen output.

Spande is very smooth so it at least presents an unblemished surface, and it's fairly easy to "build", even in extremely large sizes.

However any solid sheet material that is effectively painted can easily outperform Spandex. What you decide to use is dependent upon availability and budget.

If you have a Home Depot nearby, the a simple, $13.00 sheet of Thrifty White hardboard will do nicely. Even better is Sintra, and in the 4' x 8' size it costs approx $60.00. Unlike TWH, it was specifically designed to accept paint, as it is "Sign Board" material. It's very easy to work with as well.

Excepting Spandex, any "Cloth solution" requires a sturdy Frame. The "Boards" can be attached directly onto a wall, and Trim applied around the perimeter.

let's get your ball rolling.....where do you live?

.

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post #15 of 31 Old 03-29-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mitchdzj View Post

Nobody has suggestions for material for me? frown.gif

As I stated. I'm open to any material surface. I see lots of talk about spandex. How does this compare to painting?

Lots to chose from then, and most all are superior to Spandex as far as visual performance bas relates to expense and build considerations when the size of the screen is under 100" diagonal.

Among the best "least expensive choices" is Thrifty White Hardboard ($13.00). Next up is Sintra.($60.00 average) but availability is determined by location.

let's start the ball rolling downhill. Where do you live?

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post #16 of 31 Old 03-29-2013, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I live is the San Francisco Bay Area (north bay). I have purchased sign material before so I have a source for Sintra or other similar brand.

The biggest thing I'm worried about is spraying. If I put in around $100 for paint I don't want to mess up and piss it all away if I can't manage to apply the paint properly. Plus I need a paint sprayer. I may be able to borrow one and that would help with cost. Will a Wagner work?

So I don't have to worry about a frame with a board? Visually my wall looks flat but not 100% sure. Will I have to worry about any variation that the wall surface can present?
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post #17 of 31 Old 03-29-2013, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchdzj View Post

I live is the San Francisco Bay Area (north bay). I have purchased sign material before so I have a source for Sintra or other similar brand.

The biggest thing I'm worried about is spraying. If I put in around $100 for paint I don't want to mess up and piss it all away if I can't manage to apply the paint properly. Plus I need a paint sprayer. I may be able to borrow one and that would help with cost. Will a Wagner work?

Depends upon the Wagner. Any of the HVLP units...certainly. A Power Painter? Don't even try. The one we suggest all the time (under $60.00) http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html
Quote:
So I don't have to worry about a frame with a board? Visually my wall looks flat but not 100% sure. Will I have to worry about any variation that the wall surface can present?

Using 6MM Sintra cut to 48" x 83" will give you 92" diagonal with 1.5" additional border you can use to shoot Coarse Threaded Dry Wall screws through to attach the Material to the wall, and then cover those Screw heads with a 2.25" velvet wrapped Border.

$100.00 for paint? Unless you determine to go with RS-MaxxMudd LL ( ...you can roll that on, ya know....) or Silver Fire v2.5 3.0 (...gotta spray that stiff...) at most you'll spend $60.00 for a good Valspar variety. Add $100.00 for the Sintra and Trim / Black Velvet, and the rest ($40.00) on good roller supplies. Tape, Plastic, and there you are....at $200.00.

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post #18 of 31 Old 03-29-2013, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Depends upon the Wagner. Any of the HVLP units...certainly. A Power Painter? Don't even try. The one we suggest all the time (under $60.00) http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html
Using 6MM Sintra cut to 48" x 83" will give you 92" diagonal with 1.5" additional border you can use to shoot Coarse Threaded Dry Wall screws through to attach the Material to the wall, and then cover those Screw heads with a 2.25" velvet wrapped Border.

$100.00 for paint? Unless you determine to go with RS-MaxxMudd LL ( ...you can roll that on, ya know....) or Silver Fire v2.5 3.0 (...gotta spray that stiff...) at most you'll spend $60.00 for a good Valspar variety. Add $100.00 for the Sintra and Trim / Black Velvet, and the rest ($40.00) on good roller supplies. Tape, Plastic, and there you are....at $200.00.

Okay okay! You convinced me. I can do this. I'm gonna go all out and do the silver fire! So can you please outline the paint I need to mix the silver fire mix you recommend. I will work on getting the materials next week and hopefully be ready to paint next weekend. Thanks for helping me work this all out. And forgive me for asking you to reOutline or direct me to instructions. I just need reassurance that I'm doing the right thing.
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post #19 of 31 Old 03-29-2013, 03:08 PM
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Glad to help. I never mind giving instructions when there a good chance they will be followed. wink.gif

Links and info forthcoming soon.
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post #20 of 31 Old 03-30-2013, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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MMan what do you think about using this sprayer.


Wagner 0515034 ProCoat Stand Airless Paint Sprayer
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004SUEYPK/ref=mw_dp_mpd?pd=1&qid=1364659771&sr=8-1

It's doesn't say that it's a HVLP but its not a cheapO one either.
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post #21 of 31 Old 03-31-2013, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
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MMan what do you think about using this sprayer.


Wagner 0515034 ProCoat Stand Airless Paint Sprayer
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004SUEYPK/ref=mw_dp_mpd?pd=1&qid=1364659771&sr=8-1

It's doesn't say that it's a HVLP but its not a cheapO one either.

No...that Outfit is designed to spray large surfaces such as walls, and do so in a hurry. It literally dumps paint out in a big misty spray, and you are talkin' about a LOT of paint in the air.
\
If you were to buy a better quality HVLP with the intention of getting something that really has a lot of potential uses for a varied number of projects, then this is your "Huckleberry"

http://www.gleempaint.com/wagner-control-spray-plus.html

It costs about 30.00 more than the one below, but it also has more adjustable "oomph" when needed for bigger projects.

I do like the one below a lot...and in fact, at times I intermingle the Spray head of the Graco with the Turbine of the Wagner. I tell ya sumpthin'...if Wagner would get into using Metal needles, and offer up 1.5 -1.0 mm needles on a Gun like the "Plus", the DIY world would be a lot easier place in which to dwell. wink.gif
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post #22 of 31 Old 04-01-2013, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Gonna order the recommended sprayer tonight then.

Got all the paint except the rustolium and the liquetex silver. 22oz of silver! Going to search and order that stuff tonight too.

Got the sintra. The sign shop had some sheet with banged up edges. The guy offered me a full sheet of black sintra that was a little banged up for free too if I took the imperfect sheets. I went for it figuring I would be either triming the bad edge or it being covered with trim anyway. BTW the sintra cost me $45 for those two sheets. I was thinking I could use it for material for a masking board. Any suggestions on anything I could do with black sintra?
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post #23 of 31 Old 04-02-2013, 01:58 AM
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That sounds like a good deal. Even if the surface is blemished (rub marks and / or very slight scratches) and you have to fill / prime a few spots, overall you'll be working with a better surface than most any "normal' wall.

How big is the Black sheet?

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post #24 of 31 Old 04-02-2013, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
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How big is the Black sheet?

The black sheet is a full 4x8 sheet just like the white piece.
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post #25 of 31 Old 04-13-2013, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay I have all my materials and I'm getting ready to mix paint and spray tomorrow.

A few questions.

I got the graco 2900. What pattern should I use and any hints on getting the flow and everything setup properly for spraying SF?

The link for the nylon strainer on the SF page is broken. Do I just need to make sure it's a nylon mesh or do I need to be more specific?

Any step by step write up out there that someone can point me to?

As far as coats. I'm reading about 7-8 light Dustings of paint. How long do I wait between coats or how do I know when to go to the next application? When do I know when I'm done? Will I still see white board or will it be totally covered (not translucent)? What should the texture be like?

Any other important steps to point out that I should be attentive to?

Thank for any input!
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post #26 of 31 Old 04-13-2013, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mitchdzj View Post

Okay I have all my materials and I'm getting ready to mix paint and spray tomorrow.

A few questions.

I got the graco 2900. What pattern should I use and any hints on getting the flow and everything setup properly for spraying SF?

The Lever at the front of the Nozzle shows a choice Horizontal or Vertical. You want Vertical.


The link for the nylon strainer on the SF page is broken. Do I just need to make sure it's a nylon mesh or do I need to be more specific?

http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=Ca6lIuGhpUZqaNMa1yQHas4CwD4uPkLoDi8mZl1Oo4LuORAgGEAQgtlQoCFC-2KqFA2DJhoCAzKPAF6ABjYmI2APIAQeqBCRP0II7D6QZDtPQ1YZ_fbqMY7qdSd2PT9Q5UekVVT4OLT4GQQ2ABZBOwAUFoAYmgAfb9vcn4BL9sf3-hIvovio&sig=AOD64_1QBK37tupwngVGWtCajwW1r6jnjQ&ctype=5&ved=0COsBELsX&adurl=http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-132788/Detail&rct=j&q=nylon+paint+straining+bags

A Good selection of representative images:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mastercraftmfgs.com/strainerbag.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mastercraftmfgs.com/strainerbag.html&h=319&w=576&sz=183&tbnid=VRAmYw6h78mTGM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=126&zoom=1&usg=__Y9lczQ8pazKj0wBnRh6BWAo6DSk=&docid=hQk8yeApN7FvWM&sa=X&ei=uGhpUemlMsq52AW3rYBA&ved=0CKABEPUBMAk&dur=5541

Find 'em at Home depot or Lowes, or order then if that fails. They are essential.


Any step by step write up out there that someone can point me to?

A very many. You can go to my AVS Profile Page and click on "Threads Started by" or check in on any other Thread by a AVS'er doing SF, because almost all ask the same question. biggrin.gif Gotta focus on simple answers now as i have a wedding to go to.

As far as coats. I'm reading about 7-8 light Dustings of paint. How long do I wait between coats or how do I know when to go to the next application? When do I know when I'm done? Will I still see white board or will it be totally covered (not translucent)? What should the texture be like?

Hey, no fair grouping 'em up! 7-8 Dusters is correct, using 70% row overlap. If you wait a minimum of 30 minutes under GOOD drying conditions, your OK. Using a Fan on "Low" after 15 minutes can help assure it gets sufficiently dry, or if drying conditions are poor, a Fan and 45 minutes is usually "all good". Your Finished when the surface looks completely covered and uniform in color. If you sprayed correctly, there should be no "tactile texture" and almost no visible texture. You can improve any final results by lightly sanding after the 4-5th coats and applying the last 2-3 coats with extra care so as to not over apply the paint.

Any other important steps to point out that I should be attentive to?

Check your overall mix's viscosity (lack thereof actually) and if the paint does not flow freely enough through the Filter to prevent backing up under a normal, slow pour, add mor e water in 2 oz increments until it does. The Filters rinse out (backwards) very easily so don't let that stop you.


Thank for any input!

You got it....now run with it. But check back for advice if at any stage "Prior to" doing something you have a doubt about. Or at worst, if a mistake is made along the way, check in for corrective advice before going ahead.
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post #27 of 31 Old 04-14-2013, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Took me longer then expected to mix paint and actually get to spraying. I'm down to my last coat now.

After the last coat has dried do I avoid sanding with the sanding sponge at all? Or is it ok to?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchdzj View Post

Took me longer then expected to mix paint and actually get to spraying. I'm down to my last coat now.

After the last coat has dried do I avoid sanding with the sanding sponge at all? Or is it ok to?

There should be no sanding after the last coat. Sanding only occurs in the later stages of spraying when texture has built up, and then there is always at least two dusters applied over the sanding....it is never left as is.

That said, some who have applied the paint too heavily on the last 1-2 coats and who have gotten a higher degree of sheen from doing so have used Large Fine grit Sanding sponges to lightly "swipe' the screen to knock down the sheen. That is a very delicate operation, and it must be done evenly. Better to avoid that altogether and just do the Dusters as instructed, don't purposefully try to obtain a surface with higher sheen.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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Update: I finished up spraying decided to go with aluminum mirror frame material called J channel to hang it. I covered the frame with felt tape. The materials for the frame cost me $30. I lucked out on the J channel which cost me $22 because the manufacture was driving distance. Shipping and handling would have cost me $32.

Link to J channel:
http://www.dkhardware.com/product-26788-d638ba-brite-anodized-aluminum-fha-type-j-channel.html

Link to felt tape:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000QC6HVS


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Wow! Love the picture on this screen. Thanks MM for all your help. I feel that this was worth all the effort for the quality you get. I was thinking to go with a over the counter paint but the $40 over that cost is well worth it. I think this is the best bang for my buck. Total spent was about $200 on materials and the sprayer I got was $59.


Thanks again!
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