DIY AT Screen and Questions. - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 8 Old 07-09-2013, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Fuelrush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: East TN
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm a totally new to Home Theater, but a veteran DIY'er. I want to build a dedicated theater with a AT screen. I just bought a W1070 (yes another person bought a 1070. :-)

Right now looks like the whole miliskin thing is the way to go. Several recent post gives me a good idea of construction. As of now the questions I have are in regard to screen size.

I'd like to go ahead and make the biggest screen possible for the room. Probably 135" to 150" diag. (150" to much trouble? Probably too big?) Regardless of what I end up choosing at my final screen size will probably be smaller, but I'll always have the option to go bigger or smaller based on what I feel I need at the time without having to construct the whole thing again. I just want to make a simple masking system and let that dictate the screen size, not the actual screen. Does that make sense? To me it would be easier to remask or adjust the masking than rebuild the actual screen. Is there any unforeseen consequences to this?

Also, this would allow easy conversion of the aspect ratio. Again remask. (This also reminds me. For a 2.35:1 though a 16x9 projector, do the black bars just shoot into the velvet or would you want them on the screen itself?)

The room will be a totally dark 15 x 20 with 8 foot ceilings. The screen will go on the 15' wall.

I'm assuming I can go with the recommended (from another post):

Light Silver Milliskin Back?
White Milliskin Front?

Both Matte in finish?

What size cut do I need for what screen size? I read somewhere but now I can't find it.

Where is a good source for black velvet?

(Trying to not be overwhelmed here, just excited to get started)

Thanks to everyone. Its helped so much reading post on this forum. I wouldn't have got this far a week ago. There is a wealth of information here. Bravo!
Fuelrush is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 8 Old 07-10-2013, 03:12 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 14,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuelrush View Post

I'm a totally new to Home Theater, but a veteran DIY'er. I want to build a dedicated theater with a AT screen. I just bought a W1070 (yes another person bought a 1070. :-)

......and if all the other Kids ran out into heavy traffic, would you go too? eek.gif

Gosh, but seriously though...the 1070 is getting a lot of nods. And pretty much for the right reasons. But in truth, it's light output isn't all that exceptional, nor is it's contrast anything remarkable. No...it's all about a sub $1k DLP 1080p w/3D & Vertical Lens Shift.

It's not a perfect combination, but if one plays to it's strengths and avoids having it's weaknesses affect performance, then much can be accomplished.
Quote:
Right now looks like the whole miliskin thing is the way to go. Several recent post gives me a good idea of construction. As of now the questions I have are in regard to screen size.

I'd like to go ahead and make the biggest screen possible for the room. Probably 135" to 150" diag. (150" to much trouble? Probably too big?)

If you really want to consider anything near the size of the screen you mention, then Spandex it not a good option. A 135" diagonal spandex requires Lumen Horsepower, and 150" diagonal would overstretch Spandex, leastwise in a 16:9 format.

The recent 2.35:1 Spandex Screens in the 135" diagonal size I and some others have made were getting hit with 2500 lumen+ PJs (ie: Panny 8000) and they almost all usually had a feature called Lens Memory to help matters

It is important to understand that the Foot Lambert of reflected brightness you get from a 16:9 screen represents the entire lumen output of the PJ. switch over to 2.35:1 Format and you lose all the projected light that would have been available within the resulting "Black Bars", and that means any Lumen / Foot lambert levels you started out within those areas with are no longer in play. That makes a weak situation worse, and even in a totally darkened room (...which almost no one ever really maintains 100% of the time...) your image isn't all it could / should be in terms of being bright and dynamic.

You would be best served by considering a Drywall surface since your building a room from scratch. Such a surface will allow you to use a high contrast, high gain paint, and then...your limitations disappear. Well....at least they become more tractable. More on this below.
Quote:
Regardless of what I end up choosing at my final screen size will probably be smaller, but I'll always have the option to go bigger or smaller based on what I feel I need at the time without having to construct the whole thing again. I just want to make a simple masking system and let that dictate the screen size, not the actual screen. Does that make sense? To me it would be easier to remask or adjust the masking than rebuild the actual screen. Is there any unforeseen consequences to this?

Yep...your gonna have to do manual adjustment of the PJ's lens Shift and Zoom, as well as any masking. But there is a sensible, do-able route to take.
Quote:
Also, this would allow easy conversion of the aspect ratio. Again remask. (This also reminds me. Favai or a 2.35:1 though a 16x9 projector, do the black bars just shoot into the velvet or would you want them on the screen itself?)

Masking both horizontally and vertically is a very difficult thing to accomplish, and commercially available Masking systems can be and are very expensive affairs.

One solution is to strive for what is called "Constant Image Height" or CIH.
Quote:
The room will be a totally dark 15 x 20 with 8 foot ceilings. The screen will go on the 15' wall.

I'm assuming I can go with the recommended (from another post):

Light Silver Milliskin Back?
White Milliskin Front?

Both Matte in finish?

What size cut do I need for what screen size? I read somewhere but now I can't find it.

Let's move away from spandex and pursue what would be a better course. A painted Drywall Screen, one that will use RS-MaxxMudd LL, a well known and proven High Contrast-High Gain DIY Screen paint that will allow the w1070 to provide you with an image that will be able to reach the sizes you desire.

Size screen:

We'd start with a smoothed area of Drywall 54" x 130" ....that's a 2.35:1 Format of 141" diagonal. A screen height of 54" relates to a 16:9 image size of 110" diagonal (54" x 96")

Such a configuration, where the height of the Screen never changes, only with width, allows for the use of a much simpler masking system...one that simply "pulls in" from each side to the "96" wide spacing. That means the use of Curtains...either manual "Pull Type" or Electric.

Certain PJs "other" than the w1070 have a feature called "Lens Memory", where they recall the positions relating to the two selected Format, and re-position the Width & height of the 2.35:1 image, making the height match that of the 16:9 size, and Zooming the Width out at the same time.

Those are things YOU will have to do manually, and if the w1070 did not have Vertical Lens Shift, even this would not be an option for you to consider.

Which now leads to how to design your PJ's positioning as it will relate to your Screen and Masking system. Unless you can employ a Home Theater Design / Installer to take charge and make such decisions for you, all ya got to go on is either your own ability to learn from the sources available to you, or just take the advice of those who have "Been There...Done That" to breast and go for it.

Many have, and have come through it all not just alive, but with "kickin' Theaters.
Quote:
Where is a good source for black velvet?

Black Velvet is an essential tool in several aspects of effective design, and if it's not sourced correctly, can be costly and logistically a real issue to deal with. Luckily...it's a easily covered (pun there) item.
http://www.syfabrics.com/View.aspx/Plush-Triple-Velvet/Black-Plush-Velvet/681/264

You won't find another source with such effective material at anything near the cost.
Quote:
(Trying to not be overwhelmed here, just excited to get started)

Thanks to everyone. Its helped so much reading post on this forum. I wouldn't have got this far a week ago. There is a wealth of information here. Bravo!

Go ahead and get excited.....and we'll do everything to provide enough help and information so that your getting overwhelmed isn't going to happen. But the latter absolutely depends upon your being able to take sage advice from this Forum's members to heart...not overtly question or change things without discussing them first, and going with known and proven methods.

Or....you can indeed spend the time and effort to learn enough various things to finally put it all together on your own. But if that was not too daunting a task, why would you be here in the first place...right? wink.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
MississippiMan is online now  
post #3 of 8 Old 07-10-2013, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Fuelrush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: East TN
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah, for a bit over $850 it put me in the game to buy a projector. I don't think I would have otherwise. Not for a while anyway. I'm ok with decent/good for that price. I'm not a big 3D fan, unless something changes. I usually avoid it I be honest.

You make good points with the dry wall. I'll miss the ability to hide the speakers behind the screen but I still think I have an ability to still hide them.

I have a few more thoughts and questions. I'll post when I'm off work. Thanks for the tips!
Fuelrush is offline  
post #4 of 8 Old 07-10-2013, 01:00 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 14,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 206
You could use Black Milliskin overlay on the Screen Wall to hide In-Walls or "Standers"

Just bear in mind, it's the image you see when the lights are down, not the Speakers, so try your best to chose a route that is assured of producing the best image first and foremost.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
MississippiMan is online now  
post #5 of 8 Old 07-12-2013, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Fuelrush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: East TN
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I marked off the the 141" 2.39:1 screen off with tape. Then I measured out what the 16:9 would look like inside of that (CIH). It seemed small compared to the wall, but looking at a tape box is a world different than seeing the actual image. I'll do that soon as the projector arrives.

I started marking off with a foot down from the ceiling. Haven't set down and looked at it yet (Just standing). But it probably needs to be lower. It will help so much when the projector is here. I think it will help make since of some of the things I'm reading.

What would be the problem with constant image width (I know that's probably not technically correct)? Say keeping the same 130" width but making it taller and just masking the top and bottom. That way I get the larger 16:9 and 2.39:1. Seems if it can shoot 2.39:1 ok at that size with black bars it would be ok to remove the black bars the the projector do the native 16:9... effectively adding a little to the top and bottom. (I know you guys understand what I'm saying from the first sentence but It helps me to keep it straight myself to write the whole thing out lol) If it just black bars the native 16:9 to scope I wouldn't have to adjust the zoom or anything. Just mask. I know I'm probably over looking something involved in pj magic that would keep this from being a good idea. I tried to uncover the info myself. I checked the PJ calc and the "FL" stays the same as the calculation for the 2.39:1 suggested above.

I'm currently collecting the ingredients to spray (got 12oz of Liquitex Basics Silver.). I'm still assuming the Wagner Control Spray is still the way to go here too.
Fuelrush is offline  
post #6 of 8 Old 07-12-2013, 07:37 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 14,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 206
I tried to tell you that masking for Horizontal bars on both Top & Bottom is both extremely difficult, usually troublesome, and can be very expensive. Those who have done so have either spent a lot of money & time to create something that looks good and does a correct job, or there are those who just try to cobble something together to be able to keep that extra 8" - 10 ". Honestly, among those individuals I haven't seen anything worthy of note, and I've got no small amount of time on this Board.

If you were trying to that sort of masking with a small screen you would have a serious job cut out for you. One that is easily over 11" wide? Just consider that Auto masking assemblies on "normal" sized screens cost Thousands of dollars extra. Why? They are a logistical and engineering nightmare.

The real issue is your trying to use a more difficult solution to compensate for a lack of desire to use the PJ's own solution as it comes with out of the Box.

So Ok.....you can go looking for a solution. If the spirit of DIY'ism is in you, and Ingenuity-driven thinking is your Forte'.... it can be done. But honestly, if one doesn't have a real understanding about these things, and doesn't consider the advice of others in their planning, they have a much longer, more difficult road ahead. More costly as well. If you can accept that future, then your in a minority who will.

I let you in on this. The ONLY effective and sensible way to do what you want to do still involves using your Lens Shift. You can have a Horizontal Curtain Valance that can pull together at Center, and when used "along with Side Curtains", when you switch to WideScreen, you can pull the Side Curtains apart, shift the lens so the 2.35:1 Image's bottom edge is level with the inside bottom edge of the Screen Trim, and pull the Top Valance across / together to cover the unused Screen Portion.

You can pretty much forget about the prospect of using a 12' wide "Black Velvet loaded" Roller Blind, and you cannot / will not find any lightweight panels long enough that will span that width so you can wrap / hang them.

All I'm saying is that at times we / I can feel obligated to shake a tree so the nuts fall out. It saves people a lot of time, money, and disappointment. Your PJ choice is already ill suited for your goal, so hopefully some sage advice will take root and you can at least achieve something that is both functional and attractive.

Man...seldom am I ever this negative, but this situation I have seen before, and it seldom is resolved adequately unless the Builder decides to do / use something that is well know to work well.

Lastly...no...the Wagner is not the Sprayer of choice, The Graco 2900 w/accessory 1.5 MM Needle is the better choice, and has been since 2009.


http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html

(...the source above is the absolute least expensive anywhere at present. The rise in popularity of the Graco has caused most every outlet on the web to raise the price by 50% or more. )

http://www.checkoutsupply.com/earlex-hvacv15-1-5mm-needle-brass-tip-hv3500/

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
MississippiMan is online now  
post #7 of 8 Old 07-13-2013, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Fuelrush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: East TN
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I like your idea of lens shift to the bottom edge of the screen. Assuming I can engineer the difficult masking. In no way will I spend thousands of dollars to do that so you don't have to worry about that. If I was unsatisfied and just permanently mask off the top and and stick with CIH. No harm no foul. 96" width to 130" width, close to eliminating almost 3 feet from the screen, just hated to do that, but understand there are limitations that are especially more restrictive on a budget.

But it does concern me that the projector is ill suited for 141" scope with RS MaxxMudd LL. Should I take the whole thing in (smaller)? I hate that the PJC Calc shows you what you should get (16 fL in this case) but I guess isn't very accurate or gives you to much of a large window. Also its based on the manufactures numbers which is probably stretching the truth from the start.

I hope your not getting offend by my questions as in not following your advice. I respect and understand your experience (which is no doubt very vast). I only ask so that I understand. I'm very grateful of the insight that you have provided in just a couple post.
Fuelrush is offline  
post #8 of 8 Old 07-13-2013, 08:35 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 14,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 206
I get 19 fls @ 141" diag. (2.35:1 to 2.40:1) and at a 12' 11" throw. That is based on RS-MM-LL having 1.3 gain

Your in the range you need to be, and considering that all 3D content is 16:9, and at the Format you'll get / gain at least 10 fls more (29 fls), with even the precipitous drop in lumen output that comes with 3D, you can get by nicely in controlled lighting.

Consider that while that "3 feet" seems like a lot, it amounts to only 16" on each side.

I would stick with the size you want....you can get'ter dun. It's really the mechanics I worry about...and how much interference the wrong direction can contribute to your getting everything you want.

It's not about me getting you to do it "my way", but rather doing all I can to make sure you know ALL the pros & cons. Sometimes that means calling a spade a spade, with no uncertainty in the calling allowed.

In doing so I can only hope you don't want to take that spade and whop me upside the proverbial head on here. Butcha' know, it's worth the risks when one sees a successful project reach it's conclusion.

Every time!

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
MississippiMan is online now  
Reply DIY Screen Section

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off