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post #1 of 19 Old 07-15-2013, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but hopefully it touches upon topics that some of you either know something about, or, would like to know something about.

A PROJECTOR/SCREEN FOR A TV?
I've been looking at the Screen Innovations Black Diamond screens for the past 5 years, and I even helped a friend of mine install his (BD III 1.4 106" 16:9) last summer. I like the screen, but there was some sort of structure there that annoyed me and has been keeping me from going to a projector/screen for a TV. It wasn't the pixels - perhaps it was grain? Anyway, I happened to stumble on the "Black Diamond 1.4 vs. DIY" and "The Official Silver Fire V.2 Thread" last week, which has given me hope for doing a projector/screen combo as a TV.

MY EXISTING TV:
I currently have a Pioneer Elite Pro-710HD rear projection crt TV, which I have enjoyed for the past 13 years. The black levels are simply amazing on this TV. However, I sometimes wonder what a larger screen would look like in my room, which brings me here.

MY ROOM:
It's one of those great rooms - a family room connected to a dining area, connected to a kitchen, all in a straight-line row. The family room is 14.5' wide, and goes about 15'-16' deep, where it then widens to about 20' for the dining area and kitchen. Total distance from family room front wall to kitchen is about 45'. Ceiling is 9'. The family room has four recessed canned lights (65W each). The dining area has a fan with a light fixture, and the kitchen has 6 recessed light fixtures (65W). Along the left side of the room is the wall that looks out to the back yard. Two sets of windows - the first is about 8' from front family room wall, and the second is about 16' from family room wall. Another few feet further, just before the kitchen, is a glass arcadia door. I have shutters on the windows, so I can vary the light coming into the room, as well as directing that light towards the ceiling or towards the floor. I have tan painted walls, and a white ceiling. This is why I was considering the BD screens - so that it could handle the daytime viewing, as well as night viewing with lights on.

MY CRITERIA:
1) I don't want a huge screen - I'd rather have a smaller screen, so that the picture will have more brightness and will be sharper.
2) I do not want any more than a 12" post connected from the ceiling mount to the projector. I do not want the projector any lower than that.
3) I want the bottom of the screen to be 24" from the floor. My current TV is 22" from the floor, and having it lower is more involving. The only problem with this is that I need a projector with enough lens shift to accommodate #2 above. Let me know what you think about this...
4) For daytime viewing, if there's not enough contrast on the screen, then I'd prefer to have a TV for daytime and a projector for night. I'm hoping that with an SF screen and an Epson 5020ub projector, the 2400 lumens will be enough.

PROJECTORS:
Speaking of projectors, I originally wanted a JVC projector, so that I could get really great blacks. Two issues with the JVC - lumen output and lens shift. There's not quite enough lens shift to satisfy #2 and #3 above - something would have to give. Also, the light output might not be enough to look good enough for daytime viewing - even in high lamp mode. I thought about the Sony HW50es too, because it has more light output, but the lens shift is even less capable. That's why I'm thinking of the Epson 5020ub. It has the lens shift I need, along with the light output and decent blacks. I'm hoping the fan is not too loud, if I utilize high lamp/dynamic modes for daytime viewing. Any other thoughts/suggestions here are welcome.

OPTIONS:
1) 100" 16:9 screen - a good size for my family room. Hopefully, will have the brightness and sharpness I'm looking for.
2) 106" 2.35:1 screen - this would give me an 85" or so 16:9 screen, so it should be brighter and sharper than even option #1. 85" might seem small for a 16:9 screen, but it's much bigger than my 64" TV. Plus, if the quality of the picture is higher - especially during the day - then I don't mind dropping from 100" to 85" for 16:9. I would upgrade to the Epson 6020ub, and use an anamorphic lens, so that I don't lose much brightness when doing 2.35:1. This is a much more expensive option, because I hear that those anamorphic lenses are pricey, which may sway me back to doing #1. The Panasonic would be a thought, but the lens shift is not adequate.
3) If neither of the above are good enough during daytime viewing, then I could also consider a 60" Panasonic plasma (ST series, I think), and a motorized screen. Seems like the SF can be applied to the screen, in this application. I'm just wondering how many cycles it can survive? In our house, we'd probably go through one cycle (down/up) per day - so figure 350 cycles/year. Assuming 5 years, will the SF application survive that long? (about 1750 cycles). With this setup, the SF application would be for "daytime" room lighting, plus shutters mostly closed.

WHERE TO GO FROM HERE?
As a test, I'd like to get a piece of the Sintra/Komatex board - say 2'x3' or so - and apply the SF to it. I can then use it in my home, with a projector, and see how it does during the day and with various lighting configurations. From there, I can then decide on which of the three options would be best. Can anyone recommend how to make the SF paint? Which mixture would work? How to do it? Please feel free to respond to any of the above.


Thanks,

Dave

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post #2 of 19 Old 07-15-2013, 03:11 PM
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Reply to your Thread coming soon to a Forum near you..................

Right now I'm going to see Pacific Rim, thankyouverymuch.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #3 of 19 Old 07-15-2013, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

I apologize in advance for the length of this post,

That's a good start.
Quote:
A PROJECTOR/SCREEN FOR A TV?

Are you asking if such is possible, or even advisable? If so the answer is a resounding "yes".
Quote:
I've been looking at the Screen Innovations Black Diamond screens for the past 5 years, and I even helped a friend of mine install his (BD III 1.4 106" 16:9) last summer. I like the screen, but there was some sort of structure there that annoyed me and has been keeping me from going to a projector/screen for a TV. It wasn't the pixels - perhaps it was grain? Anyway, I happened to stumble on the "Black Diamond 1.4 vs. DIY" and "The Official Silver Fire V.2 Thread" last week, which has given me hope for doing a projector/screen combo as a TV.

A lucky stroke! We honestly feel we have surpassed the BD line-up some time ago...in fact, we were at that sort of thing and doing it well before SI-BD products ever hit the street. The Sony Chroma Vu screens were our first goal...done on a dare. 2004.
Quote:
MY EXISTING TV:
I currently have a Pioneer Elite Pro-710HD rear projection crt TV, which I have enjoyed for the past 13 years. The black levels are simply amazing on this TV. However, I sometimes wonder what a larger screen would look like in my room, which brings me here

Go figure. wink.gif
Quote:
MY ROOM:
It's one of those great rooms - a family room connected to a dining area, connected to a kitchen, all in a straight-line row. The family room is 14.5' wide, and goes about 15'-16' deep, where it then widens to about 20' for the dining area and kitchen. Total distance from family room front wall to kitchen is about 45'. Ceiling is 9'. The family room has four recessed canned lights (65W each). The dining area has a fan with a light fixture, and the kitchen has 6 recessed light fixtures (65W). Along the left side of the room is the wall that looks out to the back yard. Two sets of windows - the first is about 8' from front family room wall, and the second is about 16' from family room wall. Another few feet further, just before the kitchen, is a glass arcadia door. I have shutters on the windows, so I can vary the light coming into the room, as well as directing that light towards the ceiling or towards the floor. I have tan painted walls, and a white ceiling. This is why I was considering the BD screens - so that it could handle the daytime viewing, as well as night viewing with lights on.

Well you said you've seen a BDIII 1.4 in action. I doubt it was stuck doing a job under your set of circumstances. In any case, if proper installation considerations are met (below) and the PJ (5020) is mated with the right SF v2.5 formula, your going to see both a better, clearer image, and one that is every bit as dynamic.
Quote:
MY CRITERIA:
1) I don't want a huge screen - I'd rather have a smaller screen, so that the picture will have more brightness and will be sharper.

Excellent thinking...to a point. You do want to have a immersive image though.....
Quote:
2) I do not want any more than a 12" post connected from the ceiling mount to the projector. I do not want the projector any lower than that.

No issues there
Quote:
3) I want the bottom of the screen to be 24" from the floor. My current TV is 22" from the floor, and having it lower is more involving. The only problem with this is that I need a projector with enough lens shift to accommodate #2 above. Let me know what you think about this...

Your preferred PJ will easily accommodate that criteria.
Quote:
4) For daytime viewing, if there's not enough contrast on the screen, then I'd prefer to have a TV for daytime and a projector for night. I'm hoping that with an SF screen and an Epson 5020ub projector, the 2400 lumens will be enough.

Under ideal mounting, it can do a great job for you....but even with all that said, your not deepinto a safty zone with the type of room illuination your suggesting you might want to have.
Quote:
PROJECTORS:
Speaking of projectors, I originally wanted a JVC projector, so that I could get really great blacks. Two issues with the JVC - lumen output and lens shift. There's not quite enough lens shift to satisfy #2 and #3 above - something would have to give. Also, the light output might not be enough to look good enough for daytime viewing - even in high lamp mode. I thought about the Sony HW50es too, because it has more light output, but the lens shift is even less capable. That's why I'm thinking of the Epson 5020ub. It has the lens shift I need, along with the light output and decent blacks. I'm hoping the fan is not too loud, if I utilize high lamp/dynamic modes for daytime viewing. Any other thoughts/suggestions here are welcome.

The ONLY other choice I could suggest that would ace out your needs above and beyond the potential the 5020 offers is the BenQ SH940.

1080p / DLP
50,000:1 "DLP" contrast
4000 Lumens / 3000 on Econo
H&V Lens Shift

Based on your room conditions, and what I can see as your having very lofty expectations (ie:demands) the BenQ mated to a SF v2.5 5.0 would give you a image equal to your Flat Panels if you shot it onto a 100" Fixed Screen. Actually, at 100" it will make your Flat Panel look shabby by comparison....especially when the extreme increase in size is factored in.
Quote:
OPTIONS:
1) 100" 16:9 screen - a good size for my family room. Hopefully, will have the brightness and sharpness I'm looking for.

Brother, no matter which PJ you choose, the 100"er is your best choice. (...but you should strongly consider 110" diagonal 16:9...maybe in a Zero Edge design...)
Yes, you could go 2.35:1 CIH, but even with the conservation of Lumen output, you'd be so far behind the BenQ option as far as on-screen brightness (...and high ambient light contrast...) it absolutely ludicrous to make a comparison.

So let's get silly.

Epson 5020 @ 100" diagonal from 13' -7" & at normal lamp output on a 1.0 gain surface : 24 fls

BenQ SH940 @ 100" diagonal from 13' -7" & at normal lamp output on a 1.0 gain surface : 122 fls.

I mean really.........can you take sage advice here and accept you have something beyond spectacular waiting for you?

I know the BenQ, I've seen it do incredible things with a High Contrast screen....at 175" diagonal. At 100"s ....you can run it until it grows whiskers on Low Lamp, and still have a image comparable to the brightest Plasma you've ever seen, and the added Contrast enhancement of the SF v2.5 5.0's dark Silver/Gray will make the PJ's 50K:1 CR seem like 500K:1
Quote:
WHERE TO GO FROM HERE?
As a test, I'd like to get a piece of the Sintra/Komatex board - say 2'x3' or so - and apply the SF to it. I can then use it in my home, with a projector, and see how it does during the day and with various lighting configurations. From there, I can then decide on which of the three options would be best. Can anyone recommend how to make the SF paint? Which mixture would work? How to do it? Please feel free to respond to any of the above.

Reality check. You can't buy Sintra in anything smaller than 4' x 8' and you'll need 85" x 48" for 98" diagonal. Also, SF v2.5 5.0 is not a mix you can reduce the components down to get a 1 Quart Mix. You might as well go ahead and paint out a full size Screen. Really, only that will help you determine how happy you'll be.

You might as well because I gotta relate a stinker fur ya. Even if you wanted to have 2.35:1 CHI so bad it made you cry, unless you can mount the 6020 w/A-Lens so that the top edge of the A Lens is even with the top of the screen, it will not work if you try to employ Lens Shift...unless the A-Lens can move in syncro with the PJ Lens.

Since you do not want the big ol' Epson with a bulky A-Lens hanging down so far you have to feel like you have to duck under it, it's automatically ruled out.

Wow...you just saved $3800+ ! Get the BenQ and paint your full sized SF v2.5 5.0 screen. You'll get all the rest of the help you need once you make your decision known.

Quote:
Thanks,

Dave

Your welcome Dave.
And be totally assured, I stand firmly behind my recommendation, every bit as much as if it was a Commercial application for an important Client. I know it will not just work well, it will astound you.
Never mind how much it cost, nor how much you saved....it's all about you being gloriously happy, supremely satisfied, and coming back on here to rave about it.

........and you will.....you will. cool.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #4 of 19 Old 07-16-2013, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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WOW!! THANK YOU! I agree about the 2.35:1 option - let's toss that one out and stick with 16:9 - it will save some money :-) I agree about skipping the sample board and just painting the size that I need. The BenQ looks like a very interesting option - the vertical lens shift is crazy good. With that in mind, I have a some more comments/questions:

1) How would I make a 110" screen out of the Sintra material? Do they have something larger than 4'x8' sheets?

2) When you say zero edge design, you basically mean borderless - right?

3) I see that I mentioned brightness just a few times in my first post :-) Funny, because brightness is not one of my top two priorities (black level and contrast). I think the reason I mentioned it so much, is because of what I saw on my friends Black Diamond screen. His room is very similar to mine, except the windows are on the right side of the room, instead of the left side of the room. Anyway, when shutters are closed (or at night) and the recessed canned lights are on, the picture looks great. However, when the shutters opened a bit, the screen does get fairly washed out, even though it's better than a regular screen. Part of it might be due to the lumen output of his Sony HW30ES projector, which is only 1200-1300 lumens. Perhaps a higher lumen projector would do better? Also, he is at the midrange of his zoom, so that might be part of it too? I don't intend to open my shutters completely during the day, but I would like them opened enough to have some natural light come into the room. And with that, I'd like to have a picture that is not so washed out. Perhaps I was thinking that brightness would help with that, which is why I mentioned it so much. I just want to make sure that I don't go so far to compensate for that, that I end up compromising my dark room picture.

3) With the BenQ, should I be concerned about black levels? I love the black levels of my TV, which is why I wanted the JVC projector. I hear the black levels are King with the JVC's. Going to the Epson, I heard that the black levels are a step away from the black levels of the JVC, yet, still very good. Is the Benq yet another step away, in terms of black levels? I just want to make sure I'm not moving too far away from what I really like.

4) Just noticed that the fan is 36db for normal mode and 33db for eco mode. The fan noise of the Epson is 22db-32db. Many folks mention that the Epson can be loud in its high-power dynamic mode, which is probably 32db, so that makes the BenQ even louder in eco mode. Isn't this a big concern, especially when watching a quieter movie in a dark room?


Thanks!

Dave

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post #5 of 19 Old 07-16-2013, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

WOW!! THANK YOU! I agree about the 2.35:1 option - let's toss that one out and stick with 16:9 - it will save some money :-) I agree about skipping the sample board and just painting the size that I need. The BenQ looks like a very interesting option - the vertical lens shift is crazy good. With that in mind, I have a some more comments/questions:

1) How would I make a 110" screen out of the Sintra material? Do they have something larger than 4'x8' sheets?

Sintra comes in 5' x 10' x 6mm size, big enough to make a 122" diagonal 16:9. What if I told you that is not just entirely possible in your circumstance, that you would be the poorer for not trying it out "Zero Edge" wise?
Quote:
2) When you say zero edge design, you basically mean borderless - right?

I cannot think of any other way to describe it. wink.gif
Quote:
3) I see that I mentioned brightness just a few times in my first post :-) Funny, because brightness is not one of my top two priorities (black level and contrast). I think the reason I mentioned it so much, is because of what I saw on my friends Black Diamond screen. His room is very similar to mine, except the windows are on the right side of the room, instead of the left side of the room. Anyway, when shutters are closed (or at night) and the recessed canned lights are on, the picture looks great. However, when the shutters opened a bit, the screen does get fairly washed out, even though it's better than a regular screen. Part of it might be due to the lumen output of his Sony HW30ES projector, which is only 1200-1300 lumens. Perhaps a higher lumen projector would do better? Also, he is at the midrange of his zoom, so that might be part of it too?

Brightness AND Contrast are required in higher ambient light situations. Even deep "projected" Blacks will fade quickly if they are not produced with enough lumen output, and reflected back efficiently.

Then there is "screen enhanced" contrast, owning to a deep color (Gray or Silver or both) which usually means attenuating reflectivity within a specific range (Gray Scale below White) when Gray is used alone. Silver on the other hand is both highly reflective AND contrast enhancing, so both Blacks and Colors benefit. But only to a point as too much Silver will produce that dreaded "Graininess" and unwanted Hot Spotting.

Any PJ is dependent to some extent upon the surface it shoots it's image onto. Even a monster bright 5000 lumen PJ w/ 500,000:1 contrast will look bad on a dark flat gray surface with pits, scratches and creases, and not all that good on a Matte white with direct lighting washing across it. rolleyes.gif Also, a high contrast bright image on a too reflective a surface ain't what you want either. You need a Balance to achieve the best possible experience. Well Balance, and a healthy dose of practical common sense when you start to measure your own expectations against what the rest of the World knows / has to deal with / or can provide you.

Quote:
I don't intend to open my shutters completely during the day, but I would like them opened enough to have some natural light come into the room. And with that, I'd like to have a picture that is not so washed out. Perhaps I was thinking that brightness would help with that, which is why I mentioned it so much. I just want to make sure that I don't go so far to compensate for that, that I end up compromising my dark room picture.

What you describe is no real challenge for me to advise you exactly as to how to overcome.

Balance. The right shade of Silver/Gray hit by a bright, high contrast PJ will be all you could hope for.I thought that had already been made clear....even decided on?
Quote:
3) With the BenQ, should I be concerned about black levels? I love the black levels of my TV, which is why I wanted the JVC projector. I hear the black levels are King with the JVC's. Going to the Epson, I heard that the black levels are a step away from the black levels of the JVC, yet, still very good. Is the Benq yet another step away, in terms of black levels? I just want to make sure I'm not moving too far away from what I really like.

Say you purchased a 65" LED Edge Lit LCD w/10,000,000:1 contrast (...they do exist...) and stuck it in that room described. Excepting for light reflecting directly off the screen surface, it's gonna look good. I think you grasp that. wink.gif But 65" is and will always be....65". Small...even tiny in comparison to 122" diagonal

Size will always be an factor as far as achieving and maintaining contrast and brightness. Even in Direct View Monitors.

Silver Fire
5.0 can easily triple perceived Contrast, while resisting the effects of normal, non directed Ambient light. Excellent Blacks are in fact why SF is the application it is...and was designed to be. It allows for both size and room lighting to meet on common ground, with the advantages of both complimenting each other, not detracting.
Quote:
4) Just noticed that the fan is 36db for normal mode and 33db for eco mode. The fan noise of the Epson is 22db-32db. Many folks mention that the Epson can be loud in its high-power dynamic mode, which is probably 32db, so that makes the BenQ even louder in eco mode. Isn't this a big concern, especially when watching a quieter movie in a dark room?

If you have sensitive ears, on the occasion that the film's soundtrack level drops to virtually -00-, yeah, you might perceive the Fan noise, but almost assuredly so if your focused on it. Many other sound sources around you will actually be more apparent, but of course this one is different. It's the specific noise your looking for.

Correct PJ Placement options and a correct mounting solution can mitigate much noise potential. But be advised that just 4 years ago, 32 db Fan noise was the RULE. The Epson's set a new low at 22db.on Low Lamp, but once again...forget 'em, because on Low Lamp, even the 5020 isn't gonna come close to being satisfactory.

If we / I try it's easy enough to come up with alternatives...some that work somewhat, while others work better than most.

The BenQ / SF combo in 122" will perform exactly as you need / want it to. There are not many choices that fit that description.

Thanks!

Dave[/quote]

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post #6 of 19 Old 07-17-2013, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Mmmm... great info - again - but, I'm not sure I feel satisfied to the answer for #3, regarding black levels. For #4, I could always buy or build a hush box to reduce fan noise. So, regarding #3, I checked out the BenQ products, and I called the BenQ folks as well. For Home Theater, they recommend the W7000. The CON of this projector is that is only has 2000 lumens, compared to the 4000 lumens of the SH940. However, the W7000 has some technologies for Home Theater that the SH940 does not have, including "BrilliantColor", "VIDI Lighting Technology", "10 bit processing", "Rec 709 color gamut", "ISFccc certification", and "Independent 3D color management". The W7000 also has fan noise reduced by 4db's over the SH940.

The W7000 looks like the SH940 on first appearance - both look similar, have the same vertical lens shift and contrast ratio - but the SH940 has the lumens, and the W7000 has the technologies. I found a Projector Central review of the W7000, and for the "blacks", they mention "...black level is a touch anemic". They also shootout the W7000 with the Epson 5010 in that review - "...the 5010 has much better black level, with shadows appearing significantly deeper." I'm guessing that, if anything the SH940 is equal to or even less impressive in its black levels, compared to the W7000. That's not inspiring for someone like me whose top priorities include black levels. Perhaps I'm not understanding....

Also, if the SH940 does 3000 lumens in low lamp mode, I'm sure that would bode well for daytime viewing, but what happens at night? Wouldn't it be too much light on the screen for dark room viewing?

Thanks,

Dave

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post #7 of 19 Old 07-17-2013, 02:53 PM
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Hey...as as stated, and have stated for years, improving Contrast and Black levels is what Silver Fire is all about, and it's popularity is build on success at doing so.

I mean really, a BenQ tech is gonna know squat about what we DIY'ers know from experience is true.

Your choice as to who to listen to. Just remember, what we suggest had better work or your gonna come back spittin' !!!

It really seems that the issue revolves around your still not grasping the potential inherent in SF applications, especially when adequate lumen output is available, so any real amount of confidence is lacking.

Check out this collage of shots showing a reference White material against a Silver Fire 3.0 surface in high ambient light. The PJ was a 1100 lumen Studio Experience and the shots circa 2006. We have only improved things...to be sure.



Please go read these threads:

(...This first one is a 106" painted Tab tensioned Screen in a Crazy bright room with 3000 short throw lumen PJ )
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432177/painting-onto-a-106-tab-tensioned-screen-with-silver-fire-v2-5-4-0

( Epson 8350 at 110" in full lighting...)
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1355246/absolute-proof-of-the-difference

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1361269/110-sf-v2-1-3-0-floating-sintra-screen-w-backlighting-videos-too
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1459880/led-edge-lit-zero-edge-comeuppance-110-diagonal-silver-fire-3-0

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1360471/silver-fire-end-user-roll-call-please-give-your-testomonials-and-opinions

Read, view, judge for yourself.

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post #8 of 19 Old 07-17-2013, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again - I really do appreciate the info. What I believe you are saying is that, given my criteria and room, your recommendation for screen/projector would produce the best results. Even though the projector's blacks may be "anemic" compared to other projectors known for their black levels, the screen you are recommending will enhance the black level enough to make up for that. Does that sound right?

Two more questions then:

1) Is there anyone out there that has that combination of screen (or close to it) and projector? Any pictures? I'm sure your recommendation is coming from experience, so I'm hoping for some pictures. I know your links produced many, many pictures, and I've read through most of those threads too, but it would be nice to see pictures and/or discussion regarding the combo you are recommending.

2) Theoretical: If I were to sacrifice some of my criteria - let's say the screen location on the wall (currently, 24" from the floor) and/or the max pipe length for the ceiling mount (currently, 12"), then I would not need the huge vertical lens shift of the Epson or the BenQ, which would open up possibilities to use other projectors like Panasonic, JVC, Sony, etc. Here's my question - given the ability to use any projector for my room, would your recommendation be any different? I suppose with the Panasonic or a newer JVC, I could easily do a 2.35:1 screen too. Anyway, I want to consider what would be the absolutely best for my room - putting aside my screen location and ceiling mount limitations.


Thanks,

Dave

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post #9 of 19 Old 07-17-2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Thanks again - I really do appreciate the info. What I believe you are saying is that, given my criteria and room, your recommendation for screen/projector would produce the best results. Even though the projector's blacks may be "anemic" compared to other projectors known for their black levels, the screen you are recommending will enhance the black level enough to make up for that. Does that sound right?

Quite. You must also take into consideration your room and viewing circumstances, and how they also dictate your available choices. If you could obtain a 2500 lumen PJ with 10,000,000:1 "Native Contrast" and shot an image onto a Matte White Screen, yet bathed the screen in high ambient light as well, those incredible Blacks would take a huge hit.

Change up to a PJ with 100,000:1 CR but 4000 lumen, and splash it's image onto a much darker surface and the ability of the Blacks to resist intrusive light will allow those far weaker Blacks to retain more depth than the mega Blacks of the other PJ / Screen Combo.

Did you carefully consider what the photo collage above shows you? That is a PJ that has nowhere near either the lumen output (3x less) nor contrast specs (over 10x less) and the screen size is close to the same. That's a reference white material stuck onto a much lighter Silver Fire than what we are considering. Now correlate and do some common sense computations. You simply cannot lose sight of what your potential will be as advised.

Balance. Balance, balance.

...........did I mention Balance?
Quote:
Two more questions then:

1) Is there anyone out there that has that combination of screen (or close to it) and projector? Any pictures? I'm sure your recommendation is coming from experience, so I'm hoping for some pictures. I know your links produced many, many pictures, and I've read through most of those threads too, but it would be nice to see pictures and/or discussion regarding the combo you are recommending.

Not yet, leastwise not exactly. There are examples of 3500 lumen Optoma 1080ps hitting onto 180" screens in absolutely ridiculous amounts of both ambient and direct light. I'm talking insane amounts. The Optoma's contrast? 6000:1 SF level? 6.0

Recently I completed a 16' x 9' painted drywall screen for a Church Conference Hall that uses the SH940. A real rush job...all I got to project onto it immediately after painting / drying was a provided Power Point display. But considering that there was over 50,000 watts of generated indirect ambient light coming from literally dozens of Can lights and even Chandeliers...and for the first time ever the Church could make presentations with ALL LIGHTS on, a lot of blessings were routed my directions.

I also used that PJ for a recent installation in a Bank's Executive Conference room in Salt Lake City for a 100" screen w/ SF 6.0 The entire left side of that room was hip-to-ceiling Windows with only normal Blinds, and the windows faced south. With that PJ, with both lights on and drawn shades at Noon, the image was "Movie Quality, and the Execs were ecstatic.

I have images of the limited content of both examples, the latter does have a few grabbed from a Planet Earth Blu-Ray, but again, I was not there in "Home Theater Design" mode, and after I was done painting and hanging the PJ, I had very limited time to pull down a TON of masking from the entire room (16' long Rosewood Conference Table and and 14 Leather chairs needed protection...) and make my flight out. So I don't have any great "comparison shots or movie grabs from known "deep black" content like Underworld.

In my position, on-off Forum, I must know wherein I speak when making determinations and decisions. I can ill afford to have blatant miscues come back to haunt me, so using the known values and abilities of Screen apps and PJ performance, and by tossing in some overkill when warranted, I can do more than approximate end results.

I guarantee them. Such assurance and confidence helps keep my hair on my head and not in my hands, and yeah...can seem to also put me at odds with many less experienced individual's own perception of what is possible and can be done.

So the straight up of it all is this....what I'm suggesting for you is going to not just work, it will work better than anything else you've considered by a big margine, and do so for several thousand dollars less.
Quote:
2) Theoretical: If I were to sacrifice some of my criteria - let's say the screen location on the wall (currently, 24" from the floor) and/or the max pipe length for the ceiling mount (currently, 12"), then I would not need the huge vertical lens shift of the Epson or the BenQ, which would open up possibilities to use other projectors like Panasonic, JVC, Sony, etc. Here's my question - given the ability to use any projector for my room, would your recommendation be any different? I suppose with the Panasonic or a newer JVC, I could easily do a 2.35:1 screen too. Anyway, I want to consider what would be the absolutely best for my room - putting aside my screen location and ceiling mount limitations.


Thanks,

Dave

The best thing for you would be to exert better light control, better room colors, and match up screen size / performance with an ideal PJ. We /I have been talking primarily about the last two points, and honestly, it's the ability to design in something that allows you to live your desired lifestyle and enjoy something spectacular that others cannot that make the whole thing worthy.

Ya gotta know that if we didn't need all those lumens, and a screen that can deal with room / lighting conditions out of the norm, then we wouldn't be having this discourse, would we. wink.gif

And this last little revelation. In all of DIY Screen making...anywhere, and covering almost all Mfg Screen examples, nowhere do you / will you see the extreme ambient light performance examples as shown under real world conditions that you see coming from these Threads here on AVS. Nada.

That's why we are often a lightening rod for those who want to disclaim our results as being either false, or full of ill-advised methodology. Gosh...they gotta try something? biggrin.gif

That being said, let me re-review your circumstances, and see what can / might shake out. I'll also try to scrape up those other photos. cool.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #10 of 19 Old 07-18-2013, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I think what might help is some pictures of my room. I'll try to take some this weekend. That way, you'll see the room and the amount of light in the room. I'm sure that what you are currently recommending would put up a great picture with ambient light, but in a dark room, I'm just wondering if the projector screen combo would be too bright. (especially since you have not specifically commented on this point yet)

Thanks, Dave

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post #11 of 19 Old 07-18-2013, 10:51 AM
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Well let me add this then..... use a simple snap-on N-Lens Filter when your using the system in totally controlled lighting, as it can even be used all all times, with the attenuation also serving to enhance Blacks. Or removed at will during "worst case" high ambient light situations.

While for many "normally aspirated" PJs, the use of such light attenuation Filters can be too much, you Sir, would not have that problem.

What you do have is an impasse going on between wanting the best Blacks possible, but not being able to find (...decide on really...) the accompanying adequate Lumen output. The Screen...that's a given. cool.gif

However your solution is at hand...you need only take it up and run.

Ready...on your mark...............zzzzzzzip !


Nobody better get in his way! biggrin.gif

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post #12 of 19 Old 07-18-2013, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I called Piedmont Plastics today. They have the Sintra in 4x8 sheets for about $67.00. In 5x10 sheets, they only have the Celtec. Both are 6mm. A $44 shipping fee will bring it to my home. What's the best way to cut this stuff?

Dave

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post #13 of 19 Old 07-18-2013, 05:55 PM
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Have them cut it before delivery.

So again, how big a screen you want?

Do you want it on a Frame or mounted directly against the Wall? Zero Edge? Where will you apply the paint?

110" diagonal is 54" x 96"

Either way, attached to framing or direct mounted, you want them to cut it 54" x 96" for Zero Edge...or 58" x 100" with exterior Velvet Trim overlay.

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post #14 of 19 Old 07-22-2013, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Have them cut it before delivery.

So again, how big a screen you want?

Do you want it on a Frame or mounted directly against the Wall? Zero Edge? Where will you apply the paint?

110" diagonal is 54" x 96"

Either way, attached to framing or direct mounted, you want them to cut it 54" x 96" for Zero Edge...or 58" x 100" with exterior Velvet Trim overlay.

You're absolutely right! This is where I consult with my wife. I'm going to need to go over the options, how they will look, and then come to a decision. That may take a week or two, but once it is done, then I can move forward.

Thanks, Dave

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post #15 of 19 Old 07-22-2013, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

You're absolutely right! This is where I consult with my wife. I'm going to need to go over the options, how they will look, and then come to a decision. That may take a week or two, but once it is done, then I can move forward.

Thanks, Dave

The Wife!

Yeah...get her interested and involved. That way any spending decisions are shared...not specifically blamed on you. tongue.gif

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post #16 of 19 Old 07-23-2013, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, some decisions have been made.

1) SIZE - 100" will work best. Since I intend to have the bottom of my screen 24" from the ground, it will not be good to put the center channel speaker that close to the ground (below the screen). That means I'll have my center channel speaker above the top of the screen. I also do not want it too close to the ceiling either. A 100" screen works best, because a larger screen size would push the center channel speaker even higher, which I don't want. Plus, the space between my left/right speakers is 103", so a 100" will allow me to have 6"-8" space on each side of the screen. And, a smaller screen will have more pixels/sq inch; hence, a bit sharper. Will this be too small for the light output of the BenQ projector to get the blacks that I want? You mentioned an n-filter - is that an nd filter? Do those work with a projector? I think with a camera, it reduces the light entering the camera. For a projector, I guess it's the reverse - reducing light out of a projector. Sorry for all the questions on the projector, but I have one of the best TV's for blacks, contrast ratio, and colors, and it's hard to understand that a boardroom projector (not a home theater projector) will do somewhere near that, with a filter attached. Almost seems kludgy, but I admittedly have zero experience with it.

2) STYLE - I like the zero edge style. I could go with no trim at all, or worst case, I'd like to find some sort of trim similar to the BD Zero Edge trim, which is very small.

3) INSTALL - I don't want it on the wall, so I will put it on a frame to give that floating effect.

I'm thinking of taking a day off work to apply the paint to the board. I'll put up plastic in the garage and get it done. So, I now need to know:

* what is recommended for a paint sprayer?

* what is the paint mixture and where to get it?


Thanks,

Dave

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post #17 of 19 Old 07-24-2013, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

OK, some decisions have been made.

1) SIZE - 100" will work best. Since I intend to have the bottom of my screen 24" from the ground, it will not be good to put the center channel speaker that close to the ground (below the screen). That means I'll have my center channel speaker above the top of the screen. I also do not want it too close to the ceiling either. A 100" screen works best, because a larger screen size would push the center channel speaker even higher, which I don't want. Plus, the space between my left/right speakers is 103", so a 100" will allow me to have 6"-8" space on each side of the screen. And, a smaller screen will have more pixels/sq inch; hence, a bit sharper.

Now things switch back to the 5020 at a 10' Throw. That delivers 42 fl so a Silver Fire v2.5 4.0 would be ideally suited.
Quote:
2) STYLE - I like the zero edge style. I could go with no trim at all, or worst case, I'd like to find some sort of trim similar to the BD Zero Edge trim, which is very small.

Any trim at all is not "Zero Edge"...just misleading marketing. We get things right on DIY Screens. cool.gif
Quote:
3) INSTALL - I don't want it on the wall, so I will put it on a frame to give that floating effect.

Easily enough done.
Quote:
I'm thinking of taking a day off work to apply the paint to the board. I'll put up plastic in the garage and get it done. So, I now need to know:

* what is recommended for a paint sprayer?


http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html

.........with this Needle: http://www.checkoutsupply.com/earlex-hvacv15-1-5mm-needle-brass-tip-hv3500/

* what is the paint mixture and where to get it?


Go here for sources. ( look in the 1st Post )

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1311989/the-official-silver-fire-v-2-thread

Quote:
Thanks,

Dave

You bet.....

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post #18 of 19 Old 07-24-2013, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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OK. So, if the 5020 is the one, how does it produce 42fl? Is it in high lamp or low lamp mode? Dynamic or Cinema or ??? mode? Is this for daytime viewing? How about dark room?

Regarding post #1 in the link you provided, it seems that a couple of the links in that post aren't working. Is there anyone who has the paint materials on hand and can mix the SF 2.5 4.0? I'd be happy to pay for shipping, plus an extra cost for doing the mixing.

Dave

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post #19 of 19 Old 07-24-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

OK. So, if the 5020 is the one, how does it produce 42fl? Is it in high lamp or low lamp mode? Dynamic or Cinema or ??? mode? Is this for daytime viewing? How about dark room?

Normal Lamp Mode. 42 fl comes from the Throw distance / Screen Size / Screen Gain (1.1) and Lumen output all combined. That figure represents the Maximum, so obviously such would be a "Daytime" selection. For Night time viewing in greatly reduced lighting or no light, simply switching to Low Lamp is all you "might" want to do. That would be your call. Many get so inured to watching "The Big Picture" and having it look like a humongous Plasma / LCD that reducing brightness is not on the agenda.
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Regarding post #1 in the link you provided, it seems that a couple of the links in that post aren't working.

Dave

Oops....I'll see what happened.

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