DIY black screen tests - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Yeah we need the white one, but don't get too excited. The non-white ones weren't good and the white one might be too hazy to give the blacks we want.

Btw. the best result I had so far was with a opal/milk effect film (http://www.velken.de/sichtschutzfolien/lichtdurchlaessige-folien/sichtschutzfolie-weiss-matt-milchglasfolie/#Produktdaten), but I had to use the Wall Art on top again to reduce hotspotting.

Hmmm, well I think their is a direct correlation with how hazy the film is and how much light it allows go through. This one here has 72% light transmission, the other one has 92%. Either way, we have quite a long list of possible diffusers, and at least know there are combinations right now that work adequately even with lots of ambient light.
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post #272 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 03:00 PM
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Just uploaded http://youtu.be/ecrQYdywDZ8

 

Hotspot reducing effect of the Wall Art at 1:20

Low light performance at 4:50

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post #273 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Just uploaded http://youtu.be/ecrQYdywDZ8

Hotspot reducing effect of the Wall Art at 1:20
Low light performance at 4:50

awesome, gonna go watch it now, will be back after i have watched it like 10 times smile.gif


is it jsut me or there is no audio?
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post #274 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 03:40 PM
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No audio this time. Screwed it up while editing and saved over the original :/

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post #275 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 04:28 PM
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Ok, bottom row, second one from the left. that seems to be the best to me followed by the first one on the left also on the bottom row. What material configurations are those?

And the first one I mentioned (the second one from the left bottom row) there seems to be two materials there, the one that you use to show the hotspotting. the top half seems different from the bottom half. The overall image from that particular sample seems the best though.

better yet; to avoid having asked different times what the material combinations were, if you can remember them could you list them all out? eg. starting from the left top row

1. BRL+wall art
2. BRL+ frost film+wall art
.......etc.
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post #276 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 04:36 PM
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Its all in the youtube description. The bottom half has an additional layer of wall art film over the opal frosted film.
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post #277 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Its all in the youtube description. The bottom half has an additional layer of wall art film over the opal frosted film.


hahahaha... of course it is smile.gif. silly me. my bad.

actually, I am only interested in the last two you kept up during your dark test. perfect.
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post #278 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 04:46 PM
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Yeah me too. All the others are not up to them. I consider doing a full size version of the left one but I am really concerned about putting it together without screwing up the appearance like I did with that sample :/
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post #279 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 04:52 PM
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Yup, G is really the best hands down. Like its actually better or on par with what you would get with things like the black diamond screen. I am beginning to think there is some sort of conspiracy as to why these things haven't caught on more if we can pull it off from a DIY perspective. like G is perfect. And can only improve if you calibrate your projector specifically for it.

i think we should focus on the G combination and concentrate on how best to assemble it. Can you talk me through your current assembly process? so i would have an idea of what to look for to make suggestions for you.
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post #280 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 05:00 PM
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Actually its quite easy in theorie, because all films as self adhesive. The problem is probably that I used normal detergent with water to help with applying the layers on top of each other. This produced some foamy artifacts between the two top layers. Its also difficult to keep dirt from creeping between the layers. This gets worse with bigger sizes. Also handling large films without knitting might be difficult. I think it would take at least three persons to do a large screen.

Then there is the question what to use as a base mount. Ideally I would like to have the screen as a roller, so I will try to put it on the backside of my existing one. But this might not work, resulting in the layer peeling off or getting cracks when rolled up and down to much. The films are not designed for that. So having a rigid mount might be better. This neeeds to have a surface that tolerates becoming wet, since you need water to get the films applied without bubbles. So my cartonage layered foamboards wont do. Some aluminium or acrylic will. Maybe textile fabric too, perhaps with some custom adhesive...
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post #281 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 06:21 PM
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Well, for the backing I was gonna use a quarter inch plyboard sheet cut to size for a 98 to 100" screen. That seems like the cheapest most straight forward appraoch. But i fear that over the years wood will absorb some kinda moisture and start bend or deform in one way or another. That led me to start considering PLEXIGLASS ACRYLIC SHEETS. They come in all sorts of sizes and thicknesses. and they aren't too pricey.

For adhesives, i found these two
1. 3M 77 $12/can 16.75Oz/can
2. MISTY A315 $57/case of 12 cans 20Oz/can

They are aresol adhesives, non staining, dries clear and can both be used on film.

also i noticed that in all your tests you don't have one that consists of just the frost film and the BRL. Without the wall art film. have any idea how that may perform?

Having read through some of Nds posts, he basically made his screen using a reflective layer, a darkening layer and a diffusion layer. Our method has both the reflective and darkening layers combined. Which means that all we have to apply to it is a diffusion layer. i also understand that to prevent hot spots that diffusion layer needs to be matte. What i don't understand is why do we need two of them? like your set up has you using both the frost film and the wall art, from what i understand all we really need is one.
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post #282 of 451 Old 03-17-2014, 11:41 PM
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I would prefer having only one layer, but all the films I tried weren't matte enough. The Wall Art is the only one with the right matte finish til now. You can see the difference at 1:20 in the video, where the top half is just BRL + FWF and the bottom half has an additional layer of Wall Art.

The Wall Art may actually be the problem, because its adhesive is made for sticking it dry against the wall and not wet to another film. So it causes visible artifacts when it dries again :/
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post #283 of 451 Old 03-18-2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

I would prefer having only one layer, but all the films I tried weren't matte enough. The Wall Art is the only one with the right matte finish til now. You can see the difference at 1:20 in the video, where the top half is just BRL + FWF and the bottom half has an additional layer of Wall Art.

The Wall Art may actually be the problem, because its adhesive is made for sticking it dry against the wall and not wet to another film. So it causes visible artifacts when it dries again :/


have to agree with you on the wall art thing.

The way I see it is this, if you have just one layer of film over the BRL you get the best possible blacks you can get. However that film also determines how bright your screen is off axis and if it hotspots. adding another layer to improve light diffusion and reduce/eliminate hotspotting adds complexity to assembly and reduces (though minimally) your blackness. I've decided that only two things are going to go into making my screen. The BRL + Frost Film. basically like what you have on the top half of Sample G. I know that this will mean that I am predisposing myself to hotspot issues, but i think it won't be a problem considering my set up. I am using a short throw projector, hence the angle of light incidence is a lot steeper than that of a long throw projector. i basically have to do what you did in 1:20 of your video to see hotspoting on my screen.

At least i hope thats how it works.
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post #284 of 451 Old 03-18-2014, 04:00 PM
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So I started practicing for the full size. I think the following needs to be done to get a good result:

 

  • you need a completely flat surface to work on as a base
  • you need to wipe the room, before starting. best would be to also spray water in the air before to collect the floating dust
  • you need at least one, better two more helpers
  • you need to thoroughly clean the surface you want to apply the film to. use a new or at least clean lint-free cloth
  • you need a flexible coating knife
  • you need a safety layer between the film you want to apply and the coating knife to not damage the film
    (you can use the bearing of the film, but I used some spare window tint, so I could see through to better control what I was doing)
  • dedicated transfer liquid is better than household detergent
  • the more liquid, the better - between the films and between the film and the safety layer
  • use an aerosol can to apply the water
  • spray on the surface you want to mount on and on the adhesive side of the film immediately when removing the bearing
  • let the film droop in middle to prevent too much air being trapped under it and slowly lay it down completely
  • work from one short edge to the other, wiping the liquid only forward and to the sides
  • this is a hard one: don't step on the film :/
  • do one layer at a time
  • let the film dry for three days before applying the next layer :(
    (the manual of the self-adhesive film says you should not touch or clean it for three days when you apply it to a window)

 

Obviously it will be impossible to not step on the film with such a big surface, so I am thinking of using a plyboard and glue a carpet under it. This way my weight will at least be spread evenly. Maybe doing a "bridge" might also be possible, but it needs to be stable enough to not droop through.

 

What do you think?

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post #285 of 451 Old 03-18-2014, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

So I started practicing for the full size. I think the following needs to be done to get a good result:
  • you need a safety layer between the film you want to apply and the coating knife to not damage the film
    (you can use the bearing of the film, but I used some spare window tint, so I could see through to better control what I was doing)

Obviously it will be impossible to not step on the film with such a big surface, so I am thinking of using a plyboard and glue a carpet under it. This way my weight will at least be spread evenly. Maybe doing a "bridge" might also be possible, but it needs to be stable enough to not droop through.

What do you think?

Think you are right on the money, this is exactly how I planned to go about making mine. More or less. I planned on purchase an official window film application kit. they usually come with something that prevents you from scratching the film during application.

Your bridge idea, especially when I think of how you will look when doing that part, sounds very very mission impossibleish smile.gif
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post #286 of 451 Old 03-18-2014, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Lorddeff07 View Post

Your bridge idea, especially when I think of how you will look when doing that part, sounds very very mission impossibleish smile.gif
smile.gif Yeah I should do this hanging on ropes from the ceiling wink.gif
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post #287 of 451 Old 03-19-2014, 01:32 AM
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smile.gif Yeah I should do this hanging on ropes from the ceiling wink.gif

Haha, well actually that's how the put on vinyl and fiberglass etc. when manufacturing bigger boats ;) Like the look of G on your tests, I got my oralite today and I have some ideas I wanna try! Mine is 5600 070, don't think there is any major difference from 5500

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post #288 of 451 Old 03-19-2014, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Future Cinema View Post
 

Mine is 5600 070, don't think there is any major difference from 5500

Great! Judging from the datasheet, this one is 50% more reflective than the 5500!

http://www.orafol.com/tl_files/content/downloads/technicaldatasheets/europe/en/oralite/oralite-5500-eu-en.pdf

http://www.orafol.com/tl_files/content/downloads/technicaldatasheets/europe/en/oralite/oralite-5600-eu-en.pdf

 

Where did you get it?

 

I am still struggling with the decision of doing a full size with the current materials, while sample G looks good, it is not too bright. So maybe I wait for the chinese rear projection screen before deciding. Unfortunately they say delivery between 01. - 14. of April :(

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post #289 of 451 Old 03-19-2014, 07:00 AM
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I stumbled over an interesting page: https://www.rosco.com/filters/ecolour.cfm?DisplayType=33

 

imo worth trying would be:

  • E-Colour #250: Half White Diffusion
  • E-Colour #251: Quarter White Diffusion
  • E-Colour #253: Hanover Frost
  • E-Colour #401: Light Rolux
  • E-Colour #450: Three Eighths White
  • E-Colour #481: Half Atlantic Frost
  • E-Colour #482: Quarter Atlantic Frost
  • E-Colour #750: Durham Frost
     

and since we want more diffusion horizontally than vertically, it might be worthwhile to try a combination with

  • E-Colour #228: Brushed Silk
     

Can be purchased here for example:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/90651-REG/Rosco_102302534825_E_Colour_253_Hanover_Frost.html

and here:

http://www.10outof10.co.uk/acatalog/Rosco_E-colour.html

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post #290 of 451 Old 03-19-2014, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post
 

I stumbled over an interesting page: https://www.rosco.com/filters/ecolour.cfm?DisplayType=33

 

imo worth trying would be:

  • E-Colour #250: Half White Diffusion
  • E-Colour #251: Quarter White Diffusion
  • E-Colour #253: Hanover Frost
  • E-Colour #401: Light Rolux
  • E-Colour #450: Three Eighths White
  • E-Colour #481: Half Atlantic Frost
  • E-Colour #482: Quarter Atlantic Frost
  • E-Colour #750: Durham Frost
     

and since we want more diffusion horizontally than vertically, it might be worthwhile to try a combination with

  • E-Colour #228: Brushed Silk
     

Can be purchased here for example: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/90651-REG/Rosco_102302534825_E_Colour_253_Hanover_Frost.html

Not to disappoint you, but I'll already tried all the filters from both rosco and lee. I bought a whole sample kit and got some bigger samples and this it the conclusion:

 

  • E-Colour #250: Half White Diffusion = Ok! Gives a very wide viewing cone but the film is very white so no matter how black the layer beneath is, the screen is going to end up bright gray anyway.
  • E-Colour #251: Quarter White Diffusion = Very shiny, you can see the projector in the reflection.

 

Following created too much sparkles and shine and look really bad overall even though it had some nice diffusion properties:

  • E-Colour #253: Hanover Frost
  • E-Colour #401: Light Rolux
  • E-Colour #450: Three Eighths White
  • E-Colour #481: Half Atlantic Frost
  • E-Colour #482: Quarter Atlantic Frost
  • E-Colour #750: Durham Frost
  • E-Colour #482: Quarter Atlantic Frost
  • E-Colour #228: Brushed Silk

 

For example, All the atlantic frost version are very glossy, even though they are diffusion films. Only White frost 1/1 and 1/2 and ND frost are matte enough to prevent hotspots or reflections

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post #291 of 451 Old 03-19-2014, 07:25 AM
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Hmm. Thanks for the info.

Would you mind trying them again with a Oracal 638 Wall Art as anti-glare layer?

 

Which would you think would be best independent of the hotspot problem? From the preview images I would have picked

  • E-Colour #251: Quarter White Diffusion
  • E-Colour #253: Hanover Frost
  • E-Colour #401: Light Rolux
  • E-Colour #450: Three Eighths White
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post #292 of 451 Old 03-19-2014, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Great! Judging from the datasheet, this one is 50% more reflective than the 5500!
http://www.orafol.com/tl_files/content/downloads/technicaldatasheets/europe/en/oralite/oralite-5500-eu-en.pdf
http://www.orafol.com/tl_files/content/downloads/technicaldatasheets/europe/en/oralite/oralite-5600-eu-en.pdf

Where did you get it?

I am still struggling with the decision of doing a full size with the current materials, while sample G looks good, it is not too bright. So maybe I wait for the chinese rear projection screen before deciding. Unfortunately they say delivery between 01. - 14. of April frown.gif

I wonder why i never looked at the 5600.... anyways, the site I gave for the BRLs have the 5500,5600 and then some in stock. You can go here to go directly to 5600-070 15" x 10yds or just go back a page from the part in yellow right above for the rest of them and in other sizes.

And sorry, sample G looks good????? That thing looks phenomenal. How much brighter could you possibly want it to be. I would say before you dismiss it, have you tried or considered calibrating your PJ specifically for a black screen? I may go with the 5600 too, or wait till Future gets his and see if there are differences from the 5600 that are unacceptable smile.gif
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post #293 of 451 Old 03-19-2014, 08:27 AM
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And sorry, sample G looks good????? That thing looks phenomenal. How much brighter could you possibly want it to be.

The video capture makes it look slightly better than it is. Actually my goal would be to have a black screen that can reproduce white as bright as a gain 1.0 white diffuse screen... :D

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post #294 of 451 Old 03-19-2014, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post
 

Hmm. Thanks for the info.

Would you mind trying them again with a Oracal 638 Wall Art as anti-glare layer?

 

Which would you think would be best independent of the hotspot problem? From the preview images I would have picked

  • E-Colour #251: Quarter White Diffusion
  • E-Colour #253: Hanover Frost
  • E-Colour #401: Light Rolux
  • E-Colour #450: Three Eighths White

 

I don't have the wall art with me at the moment, I haven't ordered it yet but I can post some pictures with the roscos only if you would like? Unfortunately I only have the very small samples of rosco left, but I'll give you an idea of what they look like at least:)

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post #295 of 451 Old 03-19-2014, 11:46 PM
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Nevermind. I ordered 3 sample sheets myself. So whats your plan with the 5600? I am looking forward to your results...
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post #296 of 451 Old 03-20-2014, 03:28 AM
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Nevermind. I ordered 3 sample sheets myself. So whats your plan with the 5600? I am looking forward to your results...

 

Here we go, quick video that shows the properties and look of the small rosco samples. As I mentioned, this is without the matte wall art, so you can clearly see which film is to reflective on it's own. Overall I don't like the look of them, but they might work with some modifications. (Most of them are too shiny / sparkly)

 

 

 

A quick test with samples from rosco.

From left (top):
• #E-228
• #E-251
• #E-253
• #E-401
• #E-414
• #E-450
From Left (Bottom):
• #E-481
• #E-482
• #E-750
(Bigger square is Grafix Matte Acetate .003)

 

Hope this gives you an idea at least of how they perform:)

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post #297 of 451 Old 03-20-2014, 05:25 AM
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Thank you!

 

Unfortunately I can't really relate the video to the picture. They seem to show different results. While in the video the brightest spot is the reflective layer without any diffuser, in the picture the reflective layer is just black. Also the darkest appearances in the video seem to be the brightest in the picture.

 

Can you post more about how you took the picture. Did you use a flash?

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post #298 of 451 Old 03-20-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post
 

Thank you!

 

Unfortunately I can't really relate the video to the picture. They seem to show different results. While in the video the brightest spot is the reflective layer without any diffuser, in the picture the reflective layer is just black. Also the darkest appearances in the video seem to be the brightest in the picture.

 

Can you post more about how you took the picture. Did you use a flash?

There is a reason for that and I forgot to write it, yes I'm using the flash on my iPhone just to illustrate the samples of the rosco film and to show you the texture. If I were to move as close as possible to the projector lens on the stills test I would have gotten the same result, but that's not relevant since the majority of people doesn't sit 2cm away from the projector lens;)

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post #299 of 451 Old 03-20-2014, 08:20 AM
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That I got. I was talking about the photograph, not the video.

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post #300 of 451 Old 03-20-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
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That I got. I was talking about the photograph, not the video.

 

Well, I don't have any good answer to that phenomena, I did not use any flash in the pictures, I simply replaced the transformers pic with a white box and then took another set of photos from the exakt same angle. It must have something to do with it's retroreflective properties:)

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