DIY black screen tests - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 451 Old 04-05-2014, 08:16 AM
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Well, I am always astonished how hard it seems to be to just say "sorry, if I came across in the wrong way"

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post #332 of 451 Old 04-05-2014, 04:42 PM
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As it stands, making a 100" diag black screen requires anywhere between $3-$450 in material costs also depending one what combination of materials anyone chooses to use from the last 2 or so pages of this thread. And every passing day or week, newer or different combinations of materials are tried and new standards are reached.

Right now, the deepest black acceptable screen consists of the BRL 5600, Mac tac film and wall art combination. Viewing angles better than 60 degs are being achieved, the images made are not "fuzzy" or "washed out" and there is no adverse colour push that can't be corrected with the right amount of calibration.

fact is this, if using a black screen like this requires that the DIYer has a projector with a lumen output of over 1800lm, speands some time (naturally, hardly anyone buying a projector wouldnt tweak something in image settings) tweaking the image to get it to what will become a black screen standard; then by all means, that is what it would mean to have a screen like this. This is not about popularity, its about having the option to do it. let those that want to take it on take it on and let those that don't don't. let those that would rather buy a $3000 screen buy one, let those that would rather go with a $2-500 paint option do it. There are challenges in every option considered and there is room enough for everyone. I don't know who wrote the rule book in what kinda lumen output every screen must support, I mean if I am going to buy a ferrari i would go in knowing that a change of tires will cost me more than that of a honda.

The videos in the last two pages speak for themselves, and those videos aren't even optimized. a lot has changed in the last 5/0yrs. not just new approaches to material combinations but also new advances in PJ light output. Can anyone really look at the images observed here in the last two pages and flat out say that what has been accomplished by cylab so far is "unacceptable"? Compared to what???????
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post #333 of 451 Old 04-05-2014, 06:50 PM
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Have you guys seen this thread? May increase ideas
http://www.avforums.com/threads/diy-daytime-screen-on-a-budget.1812953/

2000 watts of power and climbing
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post #334 of 451 Old 04-07-2014, 01:08 AM
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@Lord

While I appreaciate your loyalism, MM has his points. And for sure we should create a painted comparison sample to look beyond our own nose...

 

Especially since you want to use a short throw projector, you might not benefit so much from retro-reflector. Btw. what model do you have and what would be your installation setup and throwing angles?

 

@VisionxOrb

Thanks for posting. Yeah I've seen that before and using something like this on a curved surface would probably give a nice day-time-performance.

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post #335 of 451 Old 04-07-2014, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Thanks for stopping by and... err... well... encouraging us wink.gif

I admit, that I did't investigate paint options too much, because I don't like messing around with paint. It ends up being in places I don't want it to be, like under my shoes...

Understandable. Just a couple weeks ago I tracked some sticky dust onto a Linoleum floor, and spent 10 minutes rubbing it off. biggrin.gif As for everywhere else, agreed....you have to mask off an area in any existing home with adequate plastic and/or cardboard. It's something that does go along with spray painting. The trick being to minimize the dust by using both proper equipment and application technique.
But while I will / do address some specific questions posed about "paint", this not being a thread about SF should dictate that I do not elaborate or even unintentionally steer the direction of discourse away from it's intended path.
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It looks like a lot of people in this forum favor Silver Fire. Other options I see are Screen Goo and maybe the stuff from the digital1crystal guy, so what paint option has a black/dark grey daylight or ambient appearance and produces a bright enough picture for a 1600 lumen projector?

At the sizes your talking about (100" diagonal or less) only a very few, and most all of those are quite retro-reflective...to a fault. And Grainy too. Silver Fire was / is designed to mitagate or absolve those issue, while allowing performance at far larger screen sizes. But the limitation you present....using a PJ with 1600 lumen output (...or less...) is both outdated and overly limiting. Reference LCD / LyCos PJs like JVC have lower lumen w/mega contrast values, but as such are intended to be used more with reference "White" screens in dedicated light controlled circumstances. . Not many who spend such sums as they cost are wanting or are willing to degrade the image with attenuation or imparted artifacts. Most every current DLP has more lumen output. If this project is centered on the wrong type PJs or outmoded models...it is misdirected at best.
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- Whats the principle behind the paints?

Translucent metallic infused Gray hued base applied over a bright white substrate, made adjustable via the measured introduction of a loosely mixed, semi-translucent colorant comprised of separate RGBY Primary Tints.
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- Just the ingredients or do they produce nano-structures while drying, which results in optical properties?

The loosely mixed RGBY Colorant stays in a suspension and those components do react independently to the various components of Digitally projected light. To a smaller extent, so also do the different metallic components. All of which depend upon the "looseness" and translucency achieved by the use of a copious amount of water and Polyurethane. It is both proven and Patented...although still disputed by some. That is why actual use and observations by end users are determined to be the best testimonials...not what some take a conspicuous effort to call "biased claims" by the creators. That's about as far as it should be addressed on this thread to avoid re-purposing the discussion.
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- Does it need spraying to get good homogeneus results?

In the darker, most effective versions....yes. Rolling aligns the metallic particles to the perpendicular, resulting in too much sheen, likewise with the thinness causing roller marks. Spraying distributes everything evenly and creates a flatter, more diffuse surface.
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- Do you need different layers of different paint?

If the substrate is already a smooth, bright white...no. Otherwise priming or painting such a layer is required. The latest version being experimented doe harken back to the old school method of applying a pure Silver Metallic Base, but that application is still pre-Beta.
Quote:
Share some links?
- What exactly did you do with the shower liner?

It was used as both a diffusion layer for Mirrored substrates, Silver & Aluminum metallic paints, as well as a simple stand alone solution, for both Front & Rear projection. Some of the products you have discovered might indeed be better for such a job.
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- What exact Liner did you use?

The best choice found came from Sears. That was about 3 years ago, so finding the exact link or name escapes me at present. Nothing like a unsuccessful attempt to delegate a material to the scrap heap of memory.
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- How thick was it?

2-3 mils
Quote:
- Did you use it as rear or front-projection screen?

See previous comment.
Quote:
- Did you combine it with another (reflective) layer?

Only solid color substrates, mirrors, Mylar, or painted solids, no transparent films.

Comparing the two approaches is absolutely a case of Apples / Oranges....but there is a valid premise behind combining the two in some manner or degree.

Lastly, bear in mind that doing the sort of thing your doing at or under 100" is not that difficult for some applications. But granted, doing so with a under powered PJ, and or one with poorer contrast specifications is a daunting project. No one can dispute that...and my comment above referring to "misdirection" is more a personal observation based on my own practical experiences over hundreds of cases and taking into consideration current models and marketing trends....and should not be construed as being a blanket assessment of net worth or validity.

I'm open....just less than wholly optimistic. But fully supportive of the effort...brook no mistake about that.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #336 of 451 Old 04-07-2014, 04:08 AM
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Thanks for answering my questions! I might stop by in the SiverFire thread to ask some more.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Lastly, bear in mind that doing the sort of thing your doing at or under 100" is not that difficult for some applications. But granted, doing so with a under powered PJ, and or one with poorer contrast specifications is a daunting project. No one can dispute that...and my comment above referring to "misdirection" is more a personal observation based on my own practical experiences over hundreds of cases and taking into consideration current models and marketing trends....and should not be construed as being a blanket assessment of net worth or validity.

I'm open....just less than wholly optimistic. But fully supportive of the effort...brook no mistake about that.

 

The thing that everybody on this thread needs to understand is, that for me, this is just a hobby project with uncertain outcome. I have no intentions of creating a revolutionary new product or generically solving a problem. The whole motivation for me is to see what can be achieved with this approach and what are the principles behind it. It might lead to something, but that would be a sideeffect, not the purpose of this experimenting. Hence I regard the attribute "misdirection" as misdirected ;)

 

So I can only encourage everybody that wants to create a screen to don't hold your breath, but try out the various available options yourself. Just buy available materials and paints in small amounts, create some samples and go with the one that suits you best.

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post #337 of 451 Old 04-08-2014, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

@Lord
While I appreaciate your loyalism, MM has his points. And for sure we should create a painted comparison sample to look beyond our own nose...

Especially since you want to use a short throw projector, you might not benefit so much from retro-reflector. Btw. what model do you have and what would be your installation setup and throwing angles?

Using an Optoma GT760. 3500lm. can get a 100" diagonal screen from around 3ft from the wall. have the PJ on a low table. Its a recent purchase.
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post #338 of 451 Old 04-09-2014, 09:47 AM
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Hmm, this would mean that you'll have a throw angle up to 60° in the upper corners and the 5600 looses half the reflectivity at 30°, so I doubt you will have retro-reflectivity in the corners at all. This would lead to a inhomogeneous illumination with the brightest spot the near to the projector :/

 

But at 3500lm you could try some other matte black materials like http://www.ebay.com/bhp/matte-black-vinyl-wrap, or look for dark matte paint options...

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post #339 of 451 Old 04-09-2014, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Hmm, this would mean that you'll have a throw angle up to 60° in the upper corners and the 5600 looses half the reflectivity at 30°, so I doubt you will have retro-reflectivity in the corners at all. This would lead to a inhomogeneous illumination with the brightest spot the near to the projector :/

But at 3500lm you could try some other matte black materials like http://www.ebay.com/bhp/matte-black-vinyl-wrap, or look for dark matte paint options...

Interesting... so are yu suggesting that i would not need a retro-reflective film at all? Or any combination of films? So all i may need is just the matte black film and maybe a diffuse layer? wouldn't that mean that my image will be too dark overall and i will also have a very poor viewing cone?
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post #340 of 451 Old 04-10-2014, 02:18 AM
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I can't give you definitive answers here, because I just have my Benq and the experience during this project, just try it out yourself (get some smaller samples for cheap). A matte black surface will still produce an image just like a matte black car is not uniformly black when viewing in the sun. A bad viewing cone is caused by the reflectivity, so having a matte (diffuse) surface helps with that.

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post #341 of 451 Old 04-10-2014, 01:50 PM
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Did a new long and boring video: http://youtu.be/Hyorbqs2uIc#t=0

 

Top Row
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
o Sample J
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Opal/Milk Window Film 72% VLT
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl
o Sample N
  - Oralite 5500-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - 2x Hexis S5DEPM Frozen Window Film
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  

o Sample O
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Hexis S5DEPM Frozen Window Film
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  
 
Middle Row
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
o Sample P
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Hexis S5DEPM Frozen Window Film
  - Rosco #450 3/8 White Diffuser
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  

o Sample Q
  - Oralite 5500-10 White Retro-Reflection Film
  - 70% VLT Window Tint
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  

 

Bottom Row
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
o Sample L
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - MacTac MACal 798-02 Print Vinyl
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl

o Sample R
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl
o Sample S
  - Oralite 5600-70 Black Retro-Reflection Film
  - Rosco #450 3/8 White Diffuser
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  

o Sample T
  - Oralite 5500 Backside (Metal Coating on Glass Beads)
  - 70% VLT Window Tint
  - Oracal Wall Art 638 Print Vinyl  

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post #342 of 451 Old 04-10-2014, 06:22 PM
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Link saying video has been removed because its to long??????
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post #343 of 451 Old 04-10-2014, 10:52 PM
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Went to bed while uploading. Google was complaining that I need to have a verified account to be able to publish longer videos. Did that, so the link works now.

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post #344 of 451 Old 04-11-2014, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

Went to bed while uploading. Google was complaining that I need to have a verified account to be able to publish longer videos. Did that, so the link works now.

Thankyou smile.gif
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post #345 of 451 Old 04-22-2014, 02:40 AM
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Would Oralite 5600 and Oralite 5600E do the same job?
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post #346 of 451 Old 04-22-2014, 02:48 AM
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Kind of. The E variant has embedded watermarks throughout the surface, but I did not notice them anymore after applying a diffuser. Certainly the non E variant should be prefered, but it looks like they are nearly impossible to get from online shops.
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post #347 of 451 Old 04-22-2014, 01:33 PM
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What combination of materials would work best to achieve the blackest screen when used with an Optoma EH501 (5000 lumens--well, probably only 4000), or a similar light cannon. ? I assume I can go darker with the screen the brighter the projector. Correct? I have a W6000 (only 2500 lumens--again, way less in reality I'm sure) and a Da Lite Da Mat .8 gain grey screen. Great when it's dark, but grey is just not dark enough in brightish conditions, so I need as black as possible.

Has window tint been surpassed by other materials (for achieving a black appearance)?

I was thinking of trying to avoid any adhesives by wrapping the materials around some kind of lightweight screen material, and using staples to secure the layers (staple one layer at a time). Would that work?
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post #348 of 451 Old 04-23-2014, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joikd View Post

What combination of materials would work best to achieve the blackest screen when used with an Optoma EH501 (5000 lumens--well, probably only 4000), or a similar light cannon. ? I assume I can go darker with the screen the brighter the projector. Correct? I have a W6000 (only 2500 lumens--again, way less in reality I'm sure) and a Da Lite Da Mat .8 gain grey screen. Great when it's dark, but grey is just not dark enough in brightish conditions, so I need as black as possible.

Sure, the more lumens you have, the darker you can get. From the stuff I tried til now, I would say Sample L from http://youtu.be/e-NpMhmfFbI would be the darkest you can get while still having a watchable picture. Keep in mind that "watchable" is a vague attribute. The image will get darker significally, especially on higher throw distances and screen sizes. Sample S from http://youtu.be/Hyorbqs2uIc would give a brighter picture, but you need to find a better clear drying adhesive than the 3M picture-mount I used. Papilio Crystal Clear looks good for this...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joikd View Post

Has window tint been surpassed by other materials (for achieving a black appearance)?

I was focussing on diffusers on top of an already black retro-reflector. The results were OK, but the better ones aren't black anymore (more like silver) and also benefit of the reflectivity of the window films used as a diffuser. I also think that with available diffusers it won't get much better that it is now with Sample P of http://youtu.be/Hyorbqs2uIc. So if my budget gets better again, I will probably experiment with the white retro-reflector and window tints again. The problem is, that I only find them in 30" width and I doubt that they can be patched in a way that leaves no visible seems...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joikd View Post

I was thinking of trying to avoid any adhesives by wrapping the materials around some kind of lightweight screen material, and using staples to secure the layers (staple one layer at a time). Would that work?

No. Especially on larger screen you need a tight bond between the layers because otherwise the layers would undulate against each other and therefore destroying the optical properties. You can see the effect here: http://youtu.be/ecrQYdywDZ8#t=30. You can also see that the tightly bonded areas of Sample S look and perform better than the areas that already detached themselves: http://youtu.be/Hyorbqs2uIc#t=140, http://youtu.be/Hyorbqs2uIc#t=972

 

Applying the layers to each other is not soooo bad, as long as you have cleaned and wiped everything (the room, the films, their liner, your hands etc.). Also wear clean dustfree cloths and a cap or something. Then you just need to make sure to spray enough of the transfer fluid on every side of every layer (especially on the adhesive side directly after peeling of the liner). This way you can avoid most of the dust issues. You can even do 3-4 layers at once, but you should practice it a bit beforehand...

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post #349 of 451 Old 04-23-2014, 07:37 AM
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Is this any good? http://www.hexis.co.uk/hexis/Application_Tape_Medium_Tack_files/R9500%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

Cylab can you link oralite 5600 19€ from Germany? Thanks
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post #350 of 451 Old 04-23-2014, 01:30 PM
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Unfortunately no. All retroreflectors for signs, advertising and fleet marking that are based on microprism instead of glassbeads are assembled in some form of honeycomb structure, so have visible patterns with non-retro-reflective lines between the patches :/

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mil3 View Post

Cylab can you link oralite 5600 19€ from Germany? Thanks

 

I wrote this from my head and remembered it incorrectly. Best price currently is 24,62€ at http://www.vaneker-koch.de/index.php?page=product&info=2004.

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post #351 of 451 Old 04-24-2014, 07:06 PM
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Thanks.
Where did you buy Hexis ? I found only one site but it is S5DEP. Is that the same?
http://www.walshgraphics.ie/S5DEP-%20silver-translucent
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post #352 of 451 Old 04-25-2014, 01:05 AM
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I bought it here: http://www.selbstklebefolien.com/Milchglasfolie/Milchglasfolie-123cm--58.html

 

I don't see the S5DEP anywhere on the the Hexis site, so I assume it's the same.

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post #353 of 451 Old 04-25-2014, 01:14 PM
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Previously on this forum someone made a brief post about a spandex screen from spandexworld.com. I have since collected a number of samples from them...one being a highly reflective metallic & a few black samples. So I guess im trying to get a few opinions from you all as to which you would think this could work.I plan on layering these materials of course to create a black screen effect. I thought that spandex would be easy to use because I could simply stretch each layer over one another without having the problem of air bubbles & unwanted artifacts in the layering process. Also I would assume that the type of material would not hotspot as bad & light would diffuse more evenly over the screen. Not sure as to what im going to do for the diffusing layer as I have noticed in this forum that is the biggest hurdle in creating a successful black screen. I may be completely off with this concept so any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
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post #354 of 451 Old 04-26-2014, 09:35 AM
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Not intending to derail this thread but...

Does anyone know where to buy 54 inch wide Oralite 5600 in shorter lengths than 50 yards? I would only need 4 yards and that's giving me some spare to make a 2.39:1 screen. If shorter lengths aren't available then maybe someone is interested in buying the large roll and listing shorter lengths on eBay or elsewhere. Of course, this person would need to make a profit due to their initial investment and their time cutting and rolling onto a cardboard tubes (free from carpet sellers) plus one must expect some minor losses due to mistakes, shipping damage and dishonest buyers.

Any takers?? biggrin.gif
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post #355 of 451 Old 04-26-2014, 01:19 PM
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I just ordered a small test piece of the Oralite 5600. If all goes well with my testing, I would be interested in a group buy kind of thing (one initially buys, then sells to the others).

Do the 54" and 60" come in black? I have only seen them offered in white. I want to replace my 110" screen, which is 96" x 54". But, I would prefer to use the 60" Oralite to ensure a clean edge when the frame is put in place.
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post #356 of 451 Old 04-26-2014, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joikd View Post

I just ordered a small test piece of the Oralite 5600. If all goes well with my testing, I would be interested in a group buy kind of thing (one initially buys, then sells to the others).

Do the 54" and 60" come in black? I have only seen them offered in white. I want to replace my 110" screen, which is 96" x 54". But, I would prefer to use the 60" Oralite to ensure a clean edge when the frame is put in place.

Where did you find 60"? I'd much prefer that to the 54". I'd need a bare minimum of 4 yards to make a 2.39:1 screen... maybe a bit more to have some spare for error. A 50 yard roll "should make 4.167 screens just barely enough for 4 screens with a tiny bit to spare each. I'm in if three others are!!
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post #357 of 451 Old 04-26-2014, 08:28 PM
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Well, I don't think black comes in 54" or 60" (according to the Oracal site). If that's the case, unless it is confirmed that the seams between two pieces can't be seen, I will be moving on to another material.
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post #358 of 451 Old 04-27-2014, 05:42 AM
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I believe it is only important to find top layer in that width.. Base level, oralite could be merged without that being visible..
But I think wall art is 48" max
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post #359 of 451 Old 04-27-2014, 06:43 AM
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The white one is the only one sold in 60". I will do some tests with the white one soon.
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post #360 of 451 Old 04-27-2014, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylab View Post

The white one is the only one sold in 60". I will do some tests with the white one soon.

Your tests thus far have been amazingly helpful. I anxiously await your tests with the white material!! We all owe you some beer!!smile.gif
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