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post #31 of 655 Old 08-22-2013, 06:00 PM
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Has anyone looked at LG's new Hecto Lazer projector and screen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkndSWBwj9Y
Not that I know much about all this but this video shows a cross section of their screen and wonder if there may be any tips there.

Great work BTW and thanks for sharing. Just bought a new Epson EH-TWE6100W and looking forward to making a screen smile.gif
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post #32 of 655 Old 08-22-2013, 11:00 PM
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Wow my skull is already cracking with the infos on this topic and now you give me info on this high tech crazy a** thing by LG.

BRAAIN CRAMP!
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post #33 of 655 Old 08-28-2013, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the delay. I've been traveling. I hate it when work gets in the way of my diy projects!

Firstly, I promised Johnrecon that I'd post a clip of a test with a lower powered projector. Here is a clip of a test with a 700 lumen projector which is the least powerful one I own. This little thing is over 5 years old and has never had a bulb change. Still, I am always surprised by what it is capable of considering it's age and size. Obviously it would never be a first choice for HT projector but for the purpose of testing, it proves a point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c2ehIodl2A

Secondly, my materials arrived so in theory, I should be building now. The problem is that I haven't ordered the rigid aluminum backing I wanted to mount it on. I found a lighting company on the internet who sells an aluminum sheet which is reflects 94% of the visible spectrum and has an enhanced diffuse finish. In theory, it would work as a screen on it's own but with tinted material and diffuser, it will be my "black-screen". The only problem is that they are out of stock so I have to wait another week if I insist on using this particular sheet.

The waiting time has made me consider a diy framed option and using mylar for the reflective layer. Having something that can be taken apart is a good idea when it is time to move house. Making a diy frame that looks good with my diy skills is a problem. Can anyone direct me to a site that gives detailed instructions on how to make a frame in a way that doesn't require that I take carpentry classes?

The other options I have are carbon fiber or fiberglass. I have a supply of both as well as the appropriate resins. The problem there is that without a smooth rigid surface (like a sheet of aluminum for example), the chances of ending up with a flat surface are slim to none. I made a diy anamorphic lens using carbon fiber and it looks great. Bigger stuff needs a mold.

Any ideas on framing or other rigid surfaces would be appreciated?

I am currently trying to make one from Mylar and epoxy so I'll update on that when it's dry.

One last thought for now. I am awful for getting distracted with other projects before I finish the one I'm on but.... has anyone ever tired making a selectively reflective screen using red, green and blue glass beads? I have some 25 micron beads left over from my diy glass bead experiment. 25 micron is 8 times smaller than flour and the consistency is similar. The beads are too small for the human eye to see individually at that size. The key point is that they are small enough for this purpose. I was thinking about getting some red, green and blue ink to coat them. When dry, I was thinking to mix equal parts of each color and spreading them over a thin layer of transparent epoxy. The method works for aluminum coated beads so it is a question of finding out if a thin layer of each, equally spread will reflect an image that looks good. My limited understanding of pixels on an LCD screen is that they are red, blue and green and rely on being too small to be seen individually. I would be the first to admit that I might be wrong on that last part. I would love to know if this is something that has been tried before (especially if it works). Even if it doesn't, it would be good to find out before I waste the last of my glass beads.... If there is some reason why this is a stupid idea, lets just pretend I never said it!
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post #34 of 655 Old 08-28-2013, 12:49 PM
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Thx for the clip!

I was wondering on how you are going to buil the screen
how are you planing to set up the materials against eachother. Stretching them and one on top of the other?
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post #35 of 655 Old 08-28-2013, 08:55 PM
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Looks promising, looking forward to seeing the final results! Here's a thread where Mississippi Man built a spandex screen that shows the basic blueprint for putting together a wood frame:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1458217/a-135-diagonal-2-35-1-white-milliskin-over-light-silver-milliskin-spandex-screen-build

Shouldn't require anything more than a handsaw, some metal braces and a screwdriver. You could always lay the boards flat and have them meet edge to edge too for a flatter profile I'd imagine..
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post #36 of 655 Old 09-01-2013, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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And finally .... (well nearly), I decided to get a working prototype up using foam board as the rigid base. Good job too because it didn't fit in the elevator and I had to carry it up 14 flights of stairs. Here is some pics and a video clip of my new 110 inch diy black-screen with zero edge.

first, I'll show you what it looks like off:


one more:


Now on!:


Half on screen and half on white wall below it:


Video clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWpSE9d3mus

And one more pic:


I can honestly say it looks fantastic in person in terms of image quality. The build quality is not bad considering I made it. For some reason it shows the flash from my camera but doesn't reflect the projector lens (luckily). In terms of improvements, This prototype is using a poorer quality diffuser than I will end up using. It is a place holder until I can get the one I want in the right width. I only have a 48 inch role right now and that's a little too narrow. This diffuser is ok but the other one is in a different league (you wouldn't see the flash off my camera for example). This one will only be up for a week (poor me!). Also, I am going to change the reflective layer. This one uses Mylar which works great but it is narrowing my viewing angle for the sake of extra brightness that I don't need. This one is super bright in front and drops off a lot from the sides. I have a role of diffuse reflective material that will work better for me. If you have a dull projector, that sacrifice may be worth it for you.

BTW, I was at the demo suite for projection design/ Barco a few days ago and saw Starglass (Stuarts rear projection black screen). It costs a fortune but I have to say it looks great. The technicians all said it was no better than the significantly less expensive black material I brought so this isn't always an area where you get what you pay for. I did see the mythical native 21:9 projector (2560 x 1080) that is announced every year but never seems to be for sale anywhere. It was amazing like all of their devices. I can't wait for home theater projectors to catch up. They had a small (ish) projector that was 10,000 lumens and had 10,000:1 contrast ratio. It won't be long before we able to watch in a sunny room without a special screen (hopefully).

I will post more pics next week when I change the front and back layers on my screen but until then have fun trying your own and feel free to pm me if you have any questions. I love experimenting with this stuff (in case you can't tell!) and love hearing about other people's experiences too.

Next project is the diy selectively reflective screen.....
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post #37 of 655 Old 09-02-2013, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgreis View Post

What do you think of using black widow paint mix with the light difuser film? The black widow ultra uses auto air aluminium fine with white or grey paint in 4:1 (4 white or grey: 1 aluminium) but we could use 4:2 for exemple to use more aluminium and had more gain and make a more dark grey?
Or in a dedicated theatre using with only a white paint screen to treat the secondary reflections?

What is the diference of using a thicker or a thiness light difuser film?
Thanks for the hard work

For a black widow screen, you don't really need a diffuser film because it is already a diffuse reflection with even brightness. The only benefit you would get from the film is a smoother screen which has value (how much depends on how good your paint job was).

The term "black widow" seems to have changed in recipe recently. I know it's due to the new auto-air aluminum mix formulae but I'm also not sure if the new recipe is comparable. The mix of the paints was meant to do more than just give you a neutral grey result. The beige color in the old recipe used a mix of pigments that were good at reflecting red green and blue light. The basic principle is that something looks red because it is most efficient at reflecting red light etc.if you look at the recipe for Bermuda beige, it uses a number of different pigments to get to that pinky beige result and that was responsible for some of the depth in the image.

I haven't tried the new recipe but I would not bet on it being as good. In terms of improving blacks, you could add a layer of tint (maybe 50%) and then add more aluminum to the mix. Then the diffuser on top would stop hot spots and give you even brightness again. I have mentioned a few times that I am not a fan of that auto-air aluminum paint for increasing brightness. I never got the lift I was expecting. Aluminum is a very reflective metal but there is a world of difference between polished aluminm sheet and aluminum paint.

I have had better luck all round with aluminum ink (like the kind used for screen printing). This is also water based so it can be mixed with paints. If you search for silver screen printing ink, you will find one that uses aluminum as the pigment. Mixing aluminum ink with paint ( even black paint) retains more of the reflective properties than aluminum paint. If you mix aluminum paint with black, you end up with a non-reflective dark grey. Do the same with ink and you get silvery black that is still fairly reflective.

Now, if what you want is more brightness, you will get good results with just aluminum ink with a diffuser film on top. In terms of black levels, I'm not sure you would see much of a difference between that and your black widow screen. If anything, it might be a little better because you didn't lighten the mixture with white paint. It is relatively cheap so it is worth buying some off ebay and giving it a try.

The difference between thick and thin diffusers is in both functionality and appearance. Thicker films will be whiter in color and thinner films are more transparent. Some of the thicker films have a diffusing surface on both sides instead of just one. On single sided films, the other side is often glossy and it is important to make sure you use the correct side so you don't get hot spots. Thicker films let less light through so more of your image is reflected off the top layer instead of the darker layers underneath. If you have a black surface underneath and put a thin, single sided diffuser on top, the surface will still look fairly black or dark charcoal. Adding a thick double sided film will give you more of a grey appearance under certain lighting conditions. You might want to use a slightly thicker diffuser if you have a dimmer projector. As an alternative, you could also use a slightly lighter dark layer. Using charcoal instead of black still gives you an appearance that looks black-screen-like. Films that are too thin or have too much gloss are not as effective at stopping hotspots and you might have to move the projector off-axis like the older black diamond screens. I found diffusers tha were matte and transparent enough to give a black-screen look and functionality so you should t have to put up with such an issue if you select carefully.

Now, I happened to notice that krylon make a frosted glass spray paint and a matte transparent finish. I have never used either but it mig be worth someone trying the spray to see if it acts like a diffuser layer. Good luck with it and let us know how it works out.
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post #38 of 655 Old 09-02-2013, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnrecon View Post

Thx for the pics. what kind of dark fabric were you using there?

Also, the louver mtrl seems interesting. Im thinking that if it works properly, one would not need to darken the screen that much as the sec reflections are the ones messing up the blacks in the first place.
I have a really bright living room, even the carpet is white:)

Maybe it could be used as a first? layer on a white/grey screen?

There I was using some charcoal screen material that is normally used for rear projection (so it lets some light pass). Underneath as a layer of Mylar. On the top was a piece of PVC light diffuser fabric with a matte surface. The diffuser was a translucent white but more transparent than white. The layer underneath is clearly visible through it so it retains its charcoal appearance.

I actually found a suitable source of micro louver film which doubles as the diffuser layer. It wasn't easy but they are out there and while not exactly cheap, are far less than one of the commercial black-screen options. The one I found would have cost about $350 to cover my screen (so we are talking about a piece that is 110 - 120 inches diagonally). To that you would need to add a rigid flat surface and a reflective layer. I also found options in black and dark grey for these films. I am tempted for the sake of completing my experiment but the trouble is, that I don't really need it. The DIY black-screen I have already made work really well with my projector without it.

I am in the same boat as you in terms of the bright living room. I have white or cream carpets with white walls and ceilings. I would suggest trying a black-screen without it first to see if it works for you. You can always add the micro louver film after. You make an excellent point, if you don't mind me saying, about adding it to the grey or white screen you already have. It shouldn't be too hard to create a no compromise screen where you can drop down additional layers when you need them and then retract them when it's dark so you don't have to live with limitations for benefits you don't need. Like how some company's offer two screen surfaces for 2d and 3d. The challenge would be making sure that all the layers were touching to avoid distorting the image. For now though, no reason why you couldn't add some film to your existing screen to save you from starting from scratch. Again, assuming you can attach it without space between layers. Also, I would get a sample to try first to make sure it is right for you. I find it hard to get information on these things before I buy them as they are almost always made for a different purpose so the sellers can not give you accurate information. On the plus side, that different purpose makes materials cheaper. Saying something is for a screen seems to add at least 2 zeros to the price of anything. There is an increasing number of reflective materials for growing plants that have a diffuse surface and are perfect for projection. I found a white material called orca grow on ebay and it works better than most commercial screen materials I have seen in terms of brightness and $80 got me 25 feet at 48 inches wide. It is even waterproof. I plan on replacing the reflective layer on my screen with it.
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post #39 of 655 Old 09-02-2013, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Eternitay View Post

Looks promising, looking forward to seeing the final results! Here's a thread where Mississippi Man built a spandex screen that shows the basic blueprint for putting together a wood frame:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1458217/a-135-diagonal-2-35-1-white-milliskin-over-light-silver-milliskin-spandex-screen-build

Shouldn't require anything more than a handsaw, some metal braces and a screwdriver. You could always lay the boards flat and have them meet edge to edge too for a flatter profile I'd imagine..

Thank you. I'm going to check it out. I am a good test for these things. If I can do it, anyone can!
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post #40 of 655 Old 09-02-2013, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Johnrecon View Post

Thx for the clip!

I was wondering on how you are going to buil the screen
how are you planing to set up the materials against eachother. Stretching them and one on top of the other?

Yes, that's it. I then stapled them around the back and kept going around tightening it with additional staples until it was flat. The diffuser layer makes this more forgiving than it would otherwise be as it fits fairly snugly to the material below. Using a Mylar reflective layer made my life a little more difficult for this as it was hard to get completely flat and tight. The diffuse reflective material I plan on replacing it with has more grip so it it will be easier. I plan on using epoxy resin underneath to stick the first layer to the foam board. As a general point though, staples and a rigid surface was enough to make it work. Using thicker materials makes this easier. Pulling thin materials too tight causes the board to bend and the material to raise. Using a wooden frame would stop that issue of course. I kinda like the edgeless look for now though. I feel like the dark screen can get away with it but that's me. I always felt that borders were an issue when watching content in different aspect ratios. Ie the border does its job when watching the content that fits the screen but emphasizes the fact that the screen in the wrong shape for everything else. On the other hand, using a frame lets you glue the materials together at the edges as the frame covers the glue marks. Either approach works.
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post #41 of 655 Old 09-02-2013, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ricardo100671 View Post

Has anyone looked at LG's new Hecto Lazer projector and screen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkndSWBwj9Y
Not that I know much about all this but this video shows a cross section of their screen and wonder if there may be any tips there.

Great work BTW and thanks for sharing. Just bought a new Epson EH-TWE6100W and looking forward to making a screen smile.gif


Thanks for sharing the LG info. The 2 differences with the DIY design are the fresnel lens layer and downward reflection layer. On the latter, it is actually possible to make that at home by adding a layer of reflective glass tilting forwards towards the front of the screen. It would also make the screen a little thicker and harder to build but it is possible. I remember reading about that design for anti glare glass a while ago. I looked into getting a large fresnel less for a DIY project when I first started researching the topic. DNP released a new front screen that used a fresnel lens like the old optical rear projection screens used to. The fresnel lens is like a large flat magnifying glass and takes light and directs it in one uniform direction. You might need this if, for example, you have another layer that directs ambient light downwards and you don't want it to do the same with the projected image. It is a great idea and a nice product from LG. the problem is the price and the fact that the screen only works with the projector it comes with and that projector only works on that screen. At $10k, it will be limited to a market of almost nobody. You can get a better projector and screen combo for less and without the limitations. LG will make the assumption that there is no market for it and we'll never hear about it again. Such a shame because with a few design changes, a realistic price and some clever marketing, the potential is huge. They seem to ignore all the advantages of projection to make it look like a tv. The new product I am excited about is Panasonic's new laser/led 1080p projector that is 3500 lumens, lasts 20,000 hours and has a contrast ratio of 10,000:1. At $3000 it has a better shot even without the screen. 3500 lumens and 10,000:1 is enough to watch with some lights on with a far less expensive screen. It won't be long before we don't need special screens hopefully.

I was and am continuing to look for a source of large fresnel lenses at a price range that works for DIY. You can get smaller ones from the old rp tv's but they are well, too small. Larger ones come from custom manufacturers in china or with expensive optical rear projection screens and so far, I haven't seen one that is more than 100 inches for less than $1000. Also, it turns out that I didn't need it. Perhaps it might give some comfort that the rest of the layers are consistent with what we are trying here : reflective, light diffusing, tint, rigid surface etc. interestingly, they have the tint and diffusing layers reversed from the way I did it. I think that might be because their tint layer already has a matte surface so it doesn't cause hotspots without the diffusing layer.

If anyone knows where I can get a large fresnel lens at a reasonable price, I'd love to try it but I'll stress, that I don't really need it.
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post #42 of 655 Old 09-02-2013, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachmanowicz View Post

Wow my skull is already cracking with the infos on this topic and now you give me info on this high tech crazy a** thing by LG.

BRAAIN CRAMP!

Crazy is right. Such a shame on the price. They justify it by saying that it is cheaper than an equivalent sized plasma. They seem to forget the point that it isn't a plasma, it's a projector and screen and is more expensive than equivalent combinations by a lot.
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post #43 of 655 Old 09-06-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Check out this inexpensive solution for light diffusing.



This magic spray from Krylon is meant to turn your normal glass into frosted glass. Can't image why anyone would want to do that but for screen-making, I can see it. It adds a thin, nearly transparent light diffusing layer to almost anything and it costs less than $10. For example, here is a piece of mill finished aluminum sheet:


As expected, it gives a bright but flawed image with hot-spots.

Now with a layer of the krylon spray:


Now Mylar:


Onits own, you don't even get a flawed image, just a reflection. But with a layer or 2 of spray:


The above is with one layer. Here's 2 layers:


You get the idea. Near huh?

It's not the best light diffusing solution and I doubt it will get rid of hotspots from everything but if something is borderline or only hotspots a little, it's not a bad solution. I like it. Much cheaper than other translucent paint solutions I have seen and far easier to use and get an even coat. Luckily krylon don't know it could be used for this or it would cost $10,000 and be called krylon screen diffuser top layer or something.
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post #44 of 655 Old 09-08-2013, 12:26 AM
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The Krylon Spray is old news, and was effectively dismissed as being a imperfect solution for the same reasons you stated. About as early as 7 years ago as a matter of fact, as some various members tried to use it to mute the reflectivity of Mirrors, as well as pure Silver metallic Paint, and also Aluminum sheets, both mirrored finish and Brushed. Many many Cans were depressurized, opened and emptied into HVLP Guns and applied to various substrates. Non ever passed muster, altough some very high gain surface were created. More of that same 'ol "Gosh! If only it worked really good!" stuff....then nada.....fade to black.

There is not much new under the sun that has not passed before this Forum over the last 13 years, and perhaps less even with most of your prior experimenting since the experiments with diffusion layers date back to circa 2005-6, but..................

................don't let that deter you a bit, because fortitude and determination can indeed unearth new takes on old efforts that originaly made no headway. Such was exactly the case with Light Fusion screens, and they graduated to Black Flame/Silver Fire Light Fusions over a period spanning 2004-to-present.

So keep plugging away! You won't find anyone trying to hold you in check on this DIY Forum, no sir!

However a suggestion would be to make the effort to refine any idea to a point where it's performance is above "acceptable" on every / all points before presentation, as basically non-workable ideas can actually deter people's interest after no real workable end application is produced more than encourage anticipation. Select your revelations so that they are indeed exactly that. Nothing is wrong with showing how the steps along the way led to such revelations, but there should be a finish point for people to grasp at at the end of such, not just continual "almost but not quite ready for prime Time" revelations, some which are indeed based on / around prior findings.

Yep, trial & error discovery is a tough row to hoe...and not within the means of very many....in fact really only a very few. That is where you have shown your own mettle, and as such you deserve encouragement.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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post #45 of 655 Old 09-09-2013, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

The Krylon Spray is old news, and was effectively dismissed as being a imperfect solution for the same reasons you stated. About as early as 7 years ago as a matter of fact, as some various members tried to use it to mute the reflectivity of Mirrors, as well as pure Silver metallic Paint, and also Aluminum sheets, both mirrored finish and Brushed. Many many Cans were depressurized, opened and emptied into HVLP Guns and applied to various substrates. Non ever passed muster, altough some very high gain surface were created. More of that same 'ol "Gosh! If only it worked really good!" stuff....then nada.....fade to black.

There is not much new under the sun that has not passed before this Forum over the last 13 years, and perhaps less even with most of your prior experimenting since the experiments with diffusion layers date back to circa 2005-6, but..................

................don't let that deter you a bit, because fortitude and determination can indeed unearth new takes on old efforts that originaly made no headway. Such was exactly the case with Light Fusion screens, and they graduated to Black Flame/Silver Fire Light Fusions over a period spanning 2004-to-present.

So keep plugging away! You won't find anyone trying to hold you in check on this DIY Forum, no sir!

However a suggestion would be to make the effort to refine any idea to a point where it's performance is above "acceptable" on every / all points before presentation, as basically non-workable ideas can actually deter people's interest after no real workable end application is produced more than encourage anticipation. Select your revelations so that they are indeed exactly that. Nothing is wrong with showing how the steps along the way led to such revelations, but there should be a finish point for people to grasp at at the end of such, not just continual "almost but not quite ready for prime Time" revelations, some which are indeed based on / around prior findings.

Yep, trial & error discovery is a tough row to hoe...and not within the means of very many....in fact really only a very few. That is where you have shown your own mettle, and as such you deserve encouragement.


I take your point but 13 years is a long time so a little repetition can be useful (although I get that it could be boring if it happens to be something you have seen before). It's worth talking about this that aren't optimal even if the only purpose is saving a new person some time and money. That spray may not be optimal as a stand alone, but it did a reasonable job of fixing a slight hot spotting issue where a material is borderline. They have a clear spray called "matte finish" too which seems to be slightly better as a diffusing solution. If anything else, the projectors themselves have changed in the last 13 years. Particularly in brightness but also things like ultra short throw projectors which have different issues. For that reason alone, everything is worth revisiting. Especially in the context of a multilayered screen where the disadvantages of a material can be compensated for by another layer.

One example is tinted films which often have a shiny finish which a diffusion layer on top compensate for. On its own, a trial would certainly conclude that it hotspots and is no good. Similarly a semi matte finish window tint at hot spot a little but a matte spray could make it viable. A reason that could negate the relevance of that is that films with a suitable matte finish are not massively expensive so there may be no need for sprays (unless you buy the wrong film by mistake and prefer to perform a small fox instead of replacing). Either way, not something you or I would go for but I know some people are on tight budgets so I thought it worth mentioning.

Incidentally, I tested a matte finish translucent frosted window film which I got for less than $40 (before I found my preferred material) an it made a very respectable front layer. While it gave too much brightness for my needs, it would be suited to someone with one of the dimmer projectors.

I have two final tests on the DIY black-screen project before I consider it "complete". I have micro louver film and fresnel lenses being delivered towards the end of the week. I am really happy with my working black-screen that I posted pics and video of but I couldn't live with not knowing if it could be improved. I will post pics of video of the results early next week.

In the meantime, I'm working on my next project which is the selectively reflective DIY screen. I have had some interesting test results but its not ready to post pics of yet. Just enough to give me some encouragement that it is possible as a DIY effort. Mississippi man, you sound like you've been interested in this area for a while like me. I may pm you to get your input on the new project. I will start a new thread if and when there is something worth showing.

In the meantime I'm excited to finish the black-screen by potentially adding the micro louvers!
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post #46 of 655 Old 09-09-2013, 10:15 PM
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actually... rsmaxxmudd and silver fire use several defusing layers... by technical definition.

the krylon is nothing special... just that it comes in a spray can... and for a LARGE area such a screen... it's nearly impossible to get a even coated screen.
a number of members have tried it... and also straight minwax or behr faux glaze as top layer to either add gain or remove hotspotting from sintra and various sheen heavy grey mixes.

SILVER is the closest and most successful application of several nearly unadulterated layers of faux glaze (except of the measly 2oz of siver per quart of glaze) as a difusing screen.
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post #47 of 655 Old 09-12-2013, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

actually... rsmaxxmudd and silver fire use several defusing layers... by technical definition.

the krylon is nothing special... just that it comes in a spray can... and for a LARGE area such a screen... it's nearly impossible to get a even coated screen.
a number of members have tried it... and also straight minwax or behr faux glaze as top layer to either add gain or remove hotspotting from sintra and various sheen heavy grey mixes.

SILVER is the closest and most successful application of several nearly unadulterated layers of faux glaze (except of the measly 2oz of siver per quart of glaze) as a difusing screen.

I managed to get an even layer on a smaller screen (about 70 inches) but it took a lot. The hard part with the spray is that it is hard to see where you have coverage until it's dry and you try and use it. I turned the projector on and paused it at a scene where gaps in the coating were visible when spraying. I had an easier time with the Krylon Matte coating and found it to be slightly better. I have a paint sprayer too and it took me a number of attempts to figure out how to get an even coating with that. It isn't easy but spraying ends up giving a much better finish in my opinion. It gives a smoother finish than using a roller but I think I prefer using fabric over any painted solution for my own screens. As I said, I wouldn't use the Krylon frosted widow spray to turn a mirror into a screen but it isn't a bad option to coat a material that only has a smaller hot spot issue if you don't want to buy all new material.
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post #48 of 655 Old 09-12-2013, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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My chosen diffuser fabric finally arrived in the right width so I was able to finish my screen (well until my micro louver material arrives). Here is some pics and a clip:

First, without a projected image. This is what it looks like (ie nice and black! OK, charcoal black).



And with an image:


And a clip. In the interest of disclosure, the clip was taken in the evening so the only light was room light which while bright, was nothing compared to previous tests done during the day with the blinds open. I will post another clip after I have had a chance to do some daytime testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY88BMr2-Gw

The new diffuser layer is a lot better than the temporary one. It is made of a PVC-like material which can be cleaned etc. It is also very close to clear in terms of color so it gives a slightly darker finish to the screen and even better perceived contrast. I have decided that perceived contrast is more important than the measurable kind. This is what the new diffuser looks like:


Importantly, if I lay it on my brown leather couch, you can see the dark couch color through it with minimal whitening.


This diffuser material was slightly more expensive than the temp one. A piece that was 5 yards by 60 inches cost about $80 but I think it is worth it. The image is bright, clear and has no hot spots. The image also looks even, with uniform brightness. Some materials I tested were noticeably brighter in the center than the edges. That effect is not visible with this diffuser and it is possible to watch off axis and still see a bright clear image.


BTW if anyone has a suggestion on how I should best use a $3000 budget for either a new or used projector for general living room use, I would love to hear it. I mainly watch movies and like to have some room lights on so projectors that only work in a dungeon with black walls and ceilings won't work for me. I am having a hard time reading specs that never seem to tell the whole story. I found a review of a JVC projector from 2002 which had a 600:1 contrast ratio and the reviewer described it as having the best image quality of any projector available. He recommended it for high end home theater. Similarly, the devices I saw at Projection Design / Barco, had better looking images than any home theater projectors I have seen and they had 2000:1 contrast ratios. Granted, they also cost $30k but the image was far better than the specs indicated. I wish there was a better indication of performance than lumens and contrast ratio. They art a waste of time....
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post #49 of 655 Old 09-12-2013, 11:07 AM
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A little advice....when spraying translucent paints, you must depend upon consistent positioning and speed...not visual approximations.

As such, maintaining exact speed, distance, and overlap are all essential.

Here is a Image you can use as a benchmark for the level of performance you want / need to reach for. Or surpass.



Something related to your own efforts to make note of: At CEDIA this year coming up, Elite is joining the fray with their own version of a selective, Filter-Based High Gain-High Contrast Ambient Light Screen. "DarkStar".

  • 1.4 Gain
  • 0.3 mil Thick
  • Designed to be utilized in both a Fixed and Retractable Format.
  • A surface coating that diffuses light to eliminate Hot spotting, glare and artifacts.***

Sounds a LOT like the old Dyna Clear, and probably is based on similar tech, but the supposed 1.4 gain puts it way above the latter, and shows the intent to knock heads with SI Black Diamond screens.

While Elite certainly isn't the most expensive outlet to acquire a Screen from, they are not a "Mustang" priced venture either, so price will certainly factor in as well as the purported performance.

So get Crackin New Design ! The Clock is tickin' and the Woif is at the Door! eek.gif


Post Script
:
Just posted the above and took a gander at your results...which BTW look very good and show more than a little promise.
I see the potential to create Gray-based metallic Screen paint mixes with gain levels that reach upwards into the 4.0 range, and be able to throtle back tendencies toward Hot Spotting and Granularity issues.

Looking forward to your "reveal" as to the source of this material. Hopefully that will come soon, as there are many who deserve to give it a go as soon as it is deemed ready for Prime Time.

Looks like your efforts are drawing a bead on that 'ol Wolf. biggrin.gif Go on...hang his Pelt on the Wall! cool.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Omar Epps says, "I didn't know you could make a screen THAT dark.." (First pic)

Results look quite nice indeed for what a camera phone can show, great stuff New Design, thanks for taking us along with you through the process. Looking forward to your materials list and sources...?
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post #51 of 655 Old 09-12-2013, 10:41 PM
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i gotta say... i absolutely love your enthusiasm and personal effort to think outside of the box... and revisiting past failures through another lense.
it's that same spirit and coming up with working results that make rs-maxxmudd and silverfire what they are today.

while it's hard for me to quantify and/or verify your results from the pics/vids you've shown... it certainly seems to show much promise as a non-paint
alternative and/or possible screen mix/difuser hybrid.

i've done hundred's of screen samples... and i for one knows just how foolish it can be to fully judge a even a 3' x 3' sampl to a full screen.

again i commend your efforts and contributions which are far greater than a couple of 'arm chair quarterbacks...'think they know it all's on all theories known to man with respect to color and light...bickering...to just to hear themselves speak..wink.gif
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post #52 of 655 Old 09-16-2013, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

A little advice....when spraying translucent paints, you must depend upon consistent positioning and speed...not visual approximations.

As such, maintaining exact speed, distance, and overlap are all essential.

Here is a Image you can use as a benchmark for the level of performance you want / need to reach for. Or surpass.



Something related to your own efforts to make note of: At CEDIA this year coming up, Elite is joining the fray with their own version of a selective, Filter-Based High Gain-High Contrast Ambient Light Screen. "DarkStar".

  • 1.4 Gain
  • 0.3 mil Thick
  • Designed to be utilized in both a Fixed and Retractable Format.
  • A surface coating that diffuses light to eliminate Hot spotting, glare and artifacts.***

Sounds a LOT like the old Dyna Clear, and probably is based on similar tech, but the supposed 1.4 gain puts it way above the latter, and shows the intent to knock heads with SI Black Diamond screens.

While Elite certainly isn't the most expensive outlet to acquire a Screen from, they are not a "Mustang" priced venture either, so price will certainly factor in as well as the purported performance.

So get Crackin New Design ! The Clock is tickin' and the Woif is at the Door! eek.gif


Post Script
:
Just posted the above and took a gander at your results...which BTW look very good and show more than a little promise.
I see the potential to create Gray-based metallic Screen paint mixes with gain levels that reach upwards into the 4.0 range, and be able to throtle back tendencies toward Hot Spotting and Granularity issues.

Looking forward to your "reveal" as to the source of this material. Hopefully that will come soon, as there are many who deserve to give it a go as soon as it is deemed ready for Prime Time.

Looks like your efforts are drawing a bead on that 'ol Wolf. biggrin.gif Go on...hang his Pelt on the Wall! cool.gif
I

I am happy to reveal my sources. They are by no means a secret. I just wasn't sure what the rules were here with mentioning places to buy. If a moderator tells me it's ok, I'll share in an open forum. I have been sharing sources with people who have sent me a pm. If anyone would like to know my sources, feel free to drop me a pm and I'll reply with the best places I have found to date and the price points. The only one that has been really hard to find at a good price is the micro louver film. The rest have a number of well priced options. That said, the diffuser film I eventually selected for my screen was in a different league to most in my opinion. Specifically in the way it boosted brightness without diluting the contrast performance.

BTW, I also read something about the new black-screen that Elite are about to release. The press release said it was in response to custom installers requested more black-screen options. I am not sure that when requesting that, they were thinking that it meant another in exactly the same price point making it another "me too" product and therefore pointless. They said it was only going to be sold through high end custom installers at north of $3000. So like the others, nice looking but way too expensive for what they are.

The more I dig into the DIY option, the more convinced I am that it isn't necessary. I was initially dreaming about buying one of the commercial black-screens. I particularly drooled over the Draper High Performance 0.8 gain. Since putting my DIY one up, I haven't given it a second thought. I have seen a few of them in person and I can't see a noticeable performance gap. In fact, there are things I prefer about mine. For example, it doesn't hot spot and it weighs less than 10lb.

On the new Elite, I am not sure if it is a black diamond clone or a dynaclear clone. I was under the impression it was the former but I'm sure it will be "a secret multi -layer" description until I see it.

I am experimenting with fabric glues at the moment. While I don't need it for my fixed screen, I would like the option of sealing the layers together at some point so I can make a motorized version.

I ultimately want to build a DIY screen that uses both approaches. Ie a selectively reflectively layer with a dark tinted layer added. From the early testing on DIY dichroic surfaces, you don't need as much contrast enhancement as the dichroic layer makes the image look far more saturated and with more death. A 50%-70% tint is more than enough.

It's a shame Elite didn't have the sense to stick to their niche. I can't see people buying their brand over a premium brand if the price points are identicle. If they sold it at a sub $1000 point, they would be a serious contender. We already have $3000 plus black screens and don't need another over priced option. A ford a Porsche pricing sounds silly.
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post #53 of 655 Old 09-16-2013, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

i gotta say... i absolutely love your enthusiasm and personal effort to think outside of the box... and revisiting past failures through another lense.
it's that same spirit and coming up with working results that make rs-maxxmudd and silverfire what they are today.

while it's hard for me to quantify and/or verify your results from the pics/vids you've shown... it certainly seems to show much promise as a non-paint
alternative and/or possible screen mix/difuser hybrid.

i've done hundred's of screen samples... and i for one knows just how foolish it can be to fully judge a even a 3' x 3' sampl to a full screen.

again i commend your efforts and contributions which are far greater than a couple of 'arm chair quarterbacks...'think they know it all's on all theories known to man with respect to color and light...bickering...to just to hear themselves speak..wink.gif

The DIY thing is addictive. There always seems to be something that could make it better if you you only search hard enough and do enough reading! Things can sometimes get a little stuck when it comes to trying alternate approaches. All it takes is an "expert" to make a comment in a review or something and the legend gets written in stone to be rehashed as an answer for every new-comers questions. Very few people do actual testing but a lot of people answer questions.

If the starting point is a belief that the screen industry is full of Americas best and brightest and that they tirelessly look for new low cost high performance alternatives for us, then it is easy to be intimidated into accepting that there is no other way. I doubt that a high percentage of Harvard grads end up at Elite and Draper though. No offense to those guys. They are businesses who are incented to get the most amount of money from the least amount of investment.

The message from the industry lately is that we have been neglecting the screen for too long and that we should put just as much money into the screen as we did on the projector. I think that they would say that and I still just see a piece of material. I think everyone should have access to low cost contrast enhancing screens without paying $3000.

In addition to getting a great screen for me, I have found this project a lot of fun and am happy to share. I hate it when companies try to rip is off! The screen in the pics is around 110 inches. I would recommend it without question but it is always worth people doing their own testing - that is always going to be the case as things get lost in translation from camera to screen - even if I was the best photographer in the world, that would be true. I think the clip I posted looks pretty good and it captures the performance to an extent but it looks way better in person.

Still, I have given far more than most reviews of the commercial black-screens have. I find it amazing when reading the black diamond reviews that there are hardly any candid pics, hardly any showing genuine ambient light performance, none comparing 2 black-screens, none even comparing one to a grey screen. The conclusion that it is better than their reference Stewart 1.0 gain screen with a lamp on is almost insulting. They state the obvious and post some screen innovations marketing pics. It's almost like they never actually reviewed one or they were banned from posting real pics. Try finding a candid pic of a black diamond 1.4 gain screen surface without an image projected. It's like it's a secret that it isn't really black. Anyone else feel like they have never seen proper review pics or anything candid?
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post #54 of 655 Old 09-17-2013, 03:59 AM
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I for one second that, although when such comparisons (visually) are made between DIY efforts and other Screens, mfg or DIY, they are often effectively dismissed.

The truth is that almost all Mfg Screen makers have no interest in allowing such direct comparisons to upend their marketing claims. Even at Trade Shows, they do not risk such comparisons, and almost always set up viewing situations designed to favor their screen's strong points, not let people really see what happens when the screen is pressed into service under less than ideal conditions. Marketing success depends upon impulsive decisions based on how a product is presented. Effective Consumer feedback is what usually serves to keep overt claims in line with reality....so a Mfg isn't likely to give Consumers ammunition enough to shoot their product down.

As such, it has been a standing effort with DIY to not rely strictly on published data based on tests, but on the actual results by end users. People such as yourself, who take effort to improve the quality of their creations, and quantify such with visual representations before stating such as being ready for "prime Time" elicit much more enthusiasm, especially from those who must depend upon effective explanations and demonstrations to be able to make informed decisions.

The most popular way to avoid criticism is to restrict your information and exhibition to a narrow range that favors your efforts. A far more honest approach is to test your efforts under dire circumstances, and let potential end users judge it accordingly.

This is what most all my own presentations have been showing for some years now, because I opt not to show "Eye Candy", but rather a measurement of performance under adverse circumstances. This has also been your approach on this project, and overall it is what allows people to see both your own determination, as well as the progress made. Both of which is what is needed to convince any DIY'er of the viability and desirability of any project, and allow them to seriously consider it as an option they could...and should pursue.

As for posting links to suppliers of materials for DIY projects, that is both a given requirement to allow others to follow suit, as well as something that is done all the time, as evidenced by the build threads on here. Over the years, only the posting of Mfg Screen products, or links to sites that are dedicated toward selling such have not been allowed.

So your good to go, and there is no reason to delay once your of a mind to do so. In fact, too long a hesitation after one shows really positive results usually starts to grind on everyone's nerves!
eek.gif.

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post #55 of 655 Old 09-17-2013, 02:12 PM
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This is fascinating. Never would have thought it even remotely possible. Thanks for taking the time to document your experiment!
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post #56 of 655 Old 09-18-2013, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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New tests!

I'll explain these in a minute:



















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post #57 of 655 Old 09-18-2013, 11:42 PM
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I can hold my breath for a minute.

4- 1/2 hours....not so much. wink.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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post #58 of 655 Old 09-19-2013, 05:56 AM
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EDIT: I see you answered my question already where you talked about a version of this screen that is applicable for an all dark room with the aim of boosting black levels, which is most definitely the one I am interested in ...

Hope your final result is one those of us with less skills and patience are able to make a crude copy of, because I would love to try this myself.

Thanks again for sharing your project.
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I'll take a crack at this...
a) obviously in the first photo he is showing us the roll of defusing film itself.
b) the second photo should make a number of people happy... as we now appear to have a cost effective (non-shower sheet) way to make a decent sized rear projection screen.
c) he has painted onto the back of the film... or adhered the film (if only crudely) to a black sample and then showed several screen shots of the result of the sample.

cool.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

I'll take a crack at this...
a) obviously in the first photo he is showing us the roll of defusing film itself.
b) the second photo should make a number of people happy... as we now appear to have a cost effective (non-shower sheet) way to make a decent sized rear projection screen.
c) he has painted onto the back of the film... or adhered the film (if only crudely) to a black sample and then showed several screen shots of the result of the sample.

cool.gif

Very good! I'm impressed!

A while ago, I promised a few people that I would do some tests with black paint and try and create a workable version. Essentially a hybrid that would use a painted dark layer with the diffuser film up front. It took me a while as I had run out of black paint when I made the promise and It also took a little time to create a workable version that was worth mentioning. Just using black paint and diffuser did not work well on it's own. With some small inexpensive additions, I had some promising results.

Firstly, The film pictured is doubled sided diffuser film. Single sided is not as effective for this.The role pictured was around $80 and is 25 yards long and 0.004mm thick. As a quick school reminder, there are 36 inches in a yard so this stuff is not massively expensive. 25 yards is enough for a number of large screens. It also makes an excellent rear projection film. At least as good as the rear projection films that sell for $150 per m on ebay. I think the double sided film is far batter for this purpose. The 2nd pic shows it being used for rear pro. The only difference between this and the expensive window films is the adhesive. For this purpose, we don't want it to be self adhesive or you'd have to paint on glue. Also, they are impossible to install without air bubbles that take months to work their way out.

The double sided film has 2 matte diffuser sides instead of 1 matte/1 gloss. This makes it easier to paint the reverse side. It also makes it thicker which is needed for a painted solution. It would be unsuitable for an all fabric screen as it would make it look too white. With paint, the color on the back shows through. As I said, with just black paint, it didn't work. When I added a layer of aluminum ink, I got great results. Interestingly, it worked in both orders - ie aluminum ink with black paint on the back, or black paint with aluminum ink on the back (as long as the black layer isn't too thick). I added a touch of water to the black paint to thin it down to let more light pass (but literally a touch - too much water and it won't stick or look dark).

The next lot of pics show the appearance from the front and back. There are 2 front pics. The lighter one is held up against the light to show you how the appearance varies with room lighting. I know that it isn't strictly black, but it isn't far off the black diamond 1.4 gain screen which isn't a bad idea if you have a dimmer projector. It is a lot darker than typical grey front projection materials or paints. If you just used paint that dark, there would not be enough reflectivity to give you a watchable image with most home theater projectors.

The next 3 pics show some test results. The image quality was excellent considering they were taken in a fully lit room. I was surprised at how effective it was considering how simple and cheap it was to make.

The next set show my attempt to create a darker workable version. I embedded red, green and blue glass beads in the black paint along with some treated powdered aluminum. I then coated the back with transparent epoxy resin to seal it. This worked well too and was darker. It wasn't sufficiently better to justify the extra effort though.
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