DIY black screen tests - Page 37 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 1359 Old 07-22-2015, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
OK.....everyone seems to be having so much fun I decided to toss my own hat into the ring. Somewhat.
In the layout below, there are two different versions (48" x 85") set against a 143"diagonal 2.39:1 Silver Fire v2.5 1.0 screen. The projector is a Panasonic AE 8000u set at 16.5' with NO preferential calibration done...straight up Normal Lamp / Standard Image setting. Not wanting to bother with mere incandescent lighting, the images shown are taken with unrestrained Sunlight falling directly across the Screen wall...coming from no fewer than 6 Double Hung widows, 3 on each side of the room. The room is painted to be non-reflective...the only real "advantage" in the entire scenario.

Again, please note that part of the above is not intended to be a DIY application, while part will indeed fall under that dictate.

Please keep discussion limited to opinions as relates to viewed performance, as relates to whatever other Black Screen application examples are called for.
The viewing-cone is of course a little more limited compared to the lighter ALR screen behind the examples, but certainly not bad..and the dropoff looks smooth at least (likely invisible when not viewed beside a more matte screen).

Do you know yet if one or both will look acceptable with short-throw projection?

You mentioned the room being somewhat treated against reflections..what color is the room?

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post #1082 of 1359 Old 07-22-2015, 07:23 PM
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The viewing-cone is of course a little more limited compared to the lighter ALR screen behind the examples, but certainly not bad..and the dropoff looks smooth at least (likely invisible when not viewed beside a more matte screen).
Half Gain is approx 50 degrees off axis, and then it effectively seems to stop losing brightness at that point. Pretty satisfied and happy with that.

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Do you know yet if one or both will look acceptable with short-throw projection?
There exists an opportunity to test such coming soon, more to come on this later. MHO? No reason not to since most STs are placed near or at the top of the screen. Testing will tell.

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You mentioned the room being somewhat treated against reflections..what color is the room?
Well I didn't use the words "somewhat".......the truth being I made sure it was painted specifically to be a room where a lighter Silver Fire would perform admirably when lights were on. And I can assure you they do not throw open those Wood Louvered Shades at 2 pm on a sunny day!

Walls are extremely dark Coffee Brown. Ceiling is Dark Charcoal Grey. Both are Matte.

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post #1083 of 1359 Old 07-22-2015, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Half Gain is approx 50 degrees off axis, and then it effectively seems to stop losing brightness at that point. Pretty satisfied and happy with that.



There exists an opportunity to test such coming soon, more to come on this later. MHO? No reason not to since most STs are placed near or at the top of the screen. Testing will tell.



Well I didn't use the words "somewhat".......the truth being I made sure it was painted specifically to be a room where a lighter Silver Fire would perform admirably when lights were on. And I can assure you they do not throw open those Wood Louvered Shades at 2 pm on a sunny day!

Walls are extremely dark Coffee Brown. Ceiling is Dark Charcoal Grey. Both are Matte.
1. Will you eventually have actual gain/angle measurements and shade information available?

2. That sounds hopeful. More than many MFG screens can say regarding short-throw. Might there also be a less wide-angle version available for the harshest of environments (extra-wide cone equals more sensitivity to ambient light)?

3. Fair enough. Those samples are thoroughly stomping the SF 1 daytime performance..any chance of similar side-by-side comparison against one of those special-dark SF version? Are there any SF variants this dark?

Likewise, can you post a comparison against a 1.0gain matte-white in the dark?

Does this screen show any sparkle/shimmer or other artifacts?
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post #1084 of 1359 Old 07-22-2015, 09:39 PM
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1. Will you eventually have actual gain/angle measurements and shade information available?
Absolutely....this is something that requires having effective and precise 3rd party testing done. That should be coming within 45-60 days

Quote:
2. That sounds hopeful. More than many MFG screens can say regarding short-throw. Might there also be a less wide-angle version available for the harshest of environments (extra-wide cone equals more sensitivity to ambient light)?
]

Already got 'it. That would be the next level of the Abyss. Somewhat like Silver Fire, the Dark Energy application can be made to be more and more ALR (...and directional) but obviously at the start there will be a limited number of variations. But all that pertains more to the Mfg Screen genre, and we should refrain from discussing that on here. DIY will have 2, possibly 3 levels at most.

Quote:
3. Fair enough. Those samples are thoroughly stomping the SF 1 daytime performance..any chance of similar side-by-side comparison against one of those special-dark SF version? Are there any SF variants this dark?
Only the Silver Fire v2.5 8.0+ versions approach the darkness of the Aurora & Abyss, but the known caveats of that higher range makes it only suited for extremely large commercial screens used in very high ambient light. Honestly? If it comes up I'll probably Tile a few Abyss panels together instead. Ouch.

The nest test will be with the much vaunted
Silver Fire v2.5 N/C whose shade of Grey is at least 3x darker than the example above. I will try to conjure up a location I know has a darker, full sized Silver Fire v2.5 ...because I want to use the full sized Aurora shown against it. Most know I abhor small samples.

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Likewise, can you post a comparison against a 1.0gain matte-white in the dark?
I can / could...but what's the purpose other than showing how much of a difference there would be? You already know that some aspects of the image will be "brighter"...while colors will not have the saturation that the darker surface has. Black levels will be certainly be better with the Aurora, but there will not be the gross difference as seen above. But since your being so obnoxious about it ( JKA ) I'll try to have something at least 2' x 3' available at my next Test.

(BTW...wasn't the difference between the Silver Fire 1.0 and the samples tantamount to being White vs Grey? )

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Does this screen show any sparkle/shimmer or other artifacts?
Nothing. Nada. Zilch. And I stand firmly behind that. That equates to why I'm even bothering to espouse it's virtues. If it had such, I'd not even be here.


Added: The reason I went for a Silver Fire v2.5 1.0 and the paint scheme is because of both having a 143" 2.39:1 screen and the stated desire by the owner to watch 3D movies quite often. I wanted gain / brightness with a decent amount of contrast boosting in a light controlled setting

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post #1085 of 1359 Old 07-22-2015, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
The nest test will be with the much vaunted [/COLOR][/COLOR]Silver Fire v2.5 N/C whose shade of Grey is at least 3x darker than the example above.

Added: The reason I went for a Silver Fire v2.5 1.0 and the paint scheme is because of both having a 143" 2.39:1 screen and the stated desire by the owner to watch 3D movies quite often.
Wait...what is SF-NC (the lightest/mattest version of SF) 3X darker than?

Isn't the pictured example a SF 1 which is a slightly darker shade than SF-NC?

Is one of the above quotes a typo?

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post #1086 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 07:04 AM
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Wow I am late to the game but I have to say this thread is getting exciting! First I have to ask J Bone or anyone else can answer me. These new black screens mainly consist of a acrylic sheet and vinyl wrap? There is nothing being applied to the back of the acrylic or any kind of diffuser being added to the front? Is the acrylic sheet just to have a smooth surface to apply the vinyl wrap or is it adding to the optical properties of the screen some how?

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post #1087 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 07:06 AM
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MississippiMan your screen looks awesome too. Have you considered something like kick starter to get this off the ground? If your screen can do what you say at an affordable price sign me up!

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post #1088 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 07:31 AM
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Wow I am late to the game but I have to say this thread is getting exciting! First I have to ask J Bone or anyone else can answer me. These new black screens mainly consist of a acrylic sheet and vinyl wrap? There is nothing being applied to the back of the acrylic or any kind of diffuser being added to the front? Is the acrylic sheet just to have a smooth surface to apply the vinyl wrap or is it adding to the optical properties of the screen some how?
There's nothing else added for optical properties, the wrap does all the work as long as you can hold it flat/smooth where you need it.

The acrylic is just a particularly durable smooth surface to apply the vinyl..yes.

I believe another member tried simply stapling the car-wrap around a wooden frame like you would with spandex, but they ended up putting stretch-marks in it because it's thin and they wanted to make sure it wasn't wrinkling.
It'd be interesting to know if the vinyl can simply hang down from something like a flat wall or thin board without sagging, for those who would prefer that over soap+water+squeegee.

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post #1089 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 08:52 AM
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OK, so as best I understand it the most attractive currently proposed option on this new material for hardcore DIYers who like to do most of the work themselves would be to purchase the material by itself in the appropriate size. They would receive a roll of screen material consisting of a specifically designed optical diffuser material laminated to various substrates.

This appears to be similar to what the person who started this thread (Robert Hart) eventually went to market with -- the Zebra black screen. On his website (link here) you can order a roll of his laminated black screen material at a cost of $950 for a 100" 1.85:1 screen size. So the new material appears to be the second commercial option to develop out of this DIY thread.
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post #1090 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 09:36 AM
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Very interesting stuff...

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post #1091 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 10:29 AM
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Wait...what is SF-NC (the lightest/mattest version of SF) 3X darker than?

Isn't the pictured example a SF 1 which is a slightly darker shade than SF-NC?

Is one of the above quotes a typo?
The SF screen shown predates the use of the darker type Silver Metallic used now (Rust-Oleum) and also had a significant amount of additional UPW added along with the 1.0 (1 ounce) of BF Colorant. This done was to enhance gain while retaining the benefits of the translucent Silver Metallic / Pearl combination.

One reason I can...and have advocated the SF v2.5 N/C is because it starts out darker to begin with, so for many with an appropriate PJ and Room, it can eliminate the need for all the precise Mixing of the separate primaries.

The screen shown is...and at best, 1/2 as dark as
SF v2.5 N/C.

While there many be some similarity....it is very little actually. The material sourced is not Vinyl wrap. It is in fact a multi-layered material (...more akin to DNP...not Robert) and it can come is sizes up to 153" diagonal 2.39:1 / 122" diagonal 16:9


An entirely different animal....but one that is easily trained to be a constant loving companion.

And....in either manifestation, DIY or OTB Hang, it will be a very value conscious choice..
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post #1092 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 11:36 AM
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While there many be some similarity....it is very little actually. The material sourced is not Vinyl wrap. It is in fact a multi-layered material (...more akin to DNP...not Robert)
Speaking of "not Robert", you oddly didn't mention who you're assisting/advertising for.
You've paired with PBmaxx for a while, but there aren't too many folks working with layered laminates who have mysteriously fallen off the map in the last few months besides Stephen77.

Are you not naming the creator for any particular reason or did I just manage to miss their mention?

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post #1093 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 01:27 PM
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Speaking of "not Robert", you oddly didn't mention who you're assisting/advertising for.
You've paired with PBmaxx for a while, but there aren't too many folks working with layered laminates who have mysteriously fallen off the map in the last few months besides Stephen77.

Are you not naming the creator for any particular reason or did I just manage to miss their mention?
I didn't mention it, nor was it given to me to do so. What I can say is that my place as Mentor, Adviser, and Contributor has helped bring a otherwise heretofore undeveloped idea into a different realm altogether. And...there are more than two parties involved here...the "Creator" among others.

One thing I have stressed is that excepting this reveal of concept, and teaser of things that might be / could be/ will be coming, that I would not be involved in any overt attempt to blatantly market something outside Forum rules and dictates. If anything does progress along the lines of actual promotion and sales, it will be done right...and properly, or I won't be there.

I feel strongly that this application deserves something better to happen with it than just another stab at making something work. A lot of people need and desire a non-paint solution that works above and beyond expectations. And they need it to be at a price point...be it DIY or Mfg that it becomes something obtainable. The parties involved share my beliefs (...some after a good pummeling... ) and in fact, if after all the years behind my DIY efforts, if any of this reaches a commercial venture stage, then yes...I'll be proud to be at least a part of it.

As for all the other contributors on this Thread, past, present, and future...., what has been recently revealed should not discourage but rather encourage their efforts. The Forum thrives when new ideas are being brought forward...or old ideas are being improved upon. What was deemed absolutely impossible 4-5 years ago is staring us all in the face today. And those who have led the way before this juncture deserve much of the credit.
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post #1094 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 01:30 PM
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Interesting stuff...Thanks for the review and new thoughts swirling in my head..Hot spot is not visible and the gain is great..Tell me can produce results, apply a mixture of phosphor RGB color ? Glow+reflection will this work correctly?
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post #1095 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 02:01 PM
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Interesting stuff...Thanks for the review and new thoughts swirling in my head..Hot spot is not visible and the gain is great..Tell me can produce results, apply a mixture of phosphor RGB color ? Glow+reflection will this work correctly?
Actually we are working toward a hybrid of applied RGBY coating and Film diffusers...on solid opaque substrates as well as transparent ones....which is just a variation on the Light Fusion theme in any case...just done differently. And still more things are brewin'....but those are things meant for other Threads.

I will venture this much....a veritable "Think Tank" of idea makers reside on this Forum. That is what sets us apart from every other Forum on the Planet....IMHO. All of us make the Forum what it is.
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post #1096 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 02:42 PM
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So after having consulted and. collaborated with another erstwhile DIY wizard for the last 45 days (btw, this is primarily his child...) , the end result is this:
- And...there are more than two parties involved here...the "Creator" among others.

I didn't mention it [the name of the DIY wizard], nor was it given to me to do so.
- No games...no shadowy, end around postings.

What I can say is that my place as Mentor, Adviser, and Contributor has helped bring a otherwise heretofore undeveloped idea into a different realm altogether.
- I was asked to become involved in this so that each aspect should and would be put in it's proper place and perspective,
Trying to sort out. Correct me where I go loopy.

Roughly 45+ days ago, you were consulted by a DIY wizard (or possibly wizards) who asked you to help them organize a DIY/nonDIY layered screen post and examples.

This wizard (definitely wizards) for non-shadowy reasons would rather keep their name (names) off this project at this point.

Your place as a consulted organizer and displayer (possibly advisor/mentor/contributor/etc..) helped bring an undeveloped idea (though primarily developed as another's child/screen) into a different realm altogether than their previous work had it heading..

Shadow Wizard (wizards). Bumbumbummmm
:P
Half joking, half actual confusion.

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Last edited by Ftoast; 07-23-2015 at 02:47 PM.
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post #1097 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 06:14 PM
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Trying to sort out. Correct me where I go loopy.

Roughly 45+ days ago, you were consulted by a DIY wizard (or possibly wizards) who asked you to help them organize a DIY/nonDIY layered screen post and examples.

This wizard (definitely wizards) for non-shadowy reasons would rather keep their name (names) off this project at this point.

Your place as a consulted organizer and displayer (possibly advisor/mentor/contributor/etc..) helped bring an undeveloped idea (though primarily developed as another's child/screen) into a different realm altogether than their previous work had it heading..

Shadow Wizard (wizards). Bumbumbummmm
:P
Half joking, half actual confusion.
All kinda sorta....,

The concept was under development, (not really "undeveloped" ) and my insertion into the equation was solicited. From that point, there was an exchanging of ideas and concepts, while I expounded upon which actual applications would have the most merit, reach out to the most varied market (DIY & Sales), and how to best go about putting them forward. The proverbial "Right way vs the Wrong way" idiom. Something that comes from having some experience, not just enthusiasm.

At this point, it's been determined that I am and shall be the front for all reveals and moves forward....keeping myself still planted in DIY endevours while steering everything to it's proper slot. There are some "Plans within Plans" afoot, and as an advocate for all things DIY and affordable, that's the direction I'm steering things. Hopefully for the benefit of all. Anything less would only amount to being personally opportunistic only, and while that aspect is a part of it, it is not the sole motivation nor even a primary one.

It may sound a bit maudlin, but I want everyone to benefit and get all they can out of the things to come....on both sides of the fence.
The time will come when I am no longer play an active part on AVS, so I do want to be thought of, and remembered as someone who actually cared enough to try to do things differently.

As things develop...and they are developing at a goodly pace, I will relate them in a full, open manner. Still, the desire of some to not be in the "limelight" should be respected....after all they are still supporting and providing what everyone else will benefit from.

Now let's let the Thread git back to everyone's efforts.....it's as much as it deserves.

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post #1098 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 07:59 PM
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Now let's let the Thread git back to everyone's efforts.....it's as much as it deserves.
With the knowledge gained during your group project's creation, are there any particular (or even vague) materials you can enthusiastically suggest without potentially ruining the future business model in the other section?

An especially well-behaved diffuser or film, a larger than average reflector, a non-glossy dark film..any good finds that can be safely shared?

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #1099 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 09:46 PM
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There's nothing else added for optical properties, the wrap does all the work as long as you can hold it flat/smooth where you need it.

The acrylic is just a particularly durable smooth surface to apply the vinyl..yes.

I believe another member tried simply stapling the car-wrap around a wooden frame like you would with spandex, but they ended up putting stretch-marks in it because it's thin and they wanted to make sure it wasn't wrinkling.
It'd be interesting to know if the vinyl can simply hang down from something like a flat wall or thin board without sagging, for those who would prefer that over soap+water+squeegee.
Sorry for the late response, but yes.

Ftoast hit the nail right on the head!
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post #1100 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 09:47 PM
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With the knowledge gained during your group project's creation, are there any particular (or even vague) materials you can enthusiastically suggest without potentially ruining the future business model in the other section?

An especially well-behaved diffuser or film, a larger than average reflector, a non-glossy dark film..any good finds that can be safely shared?
++++++1
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post #1101 of 1359 Old 07-23-2015, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
OK, so as best I understand it the most attractive currently proposed option on this new material for hardcore DIYers who like to do most of the work themselves would be to purchase the material by itself in the appropriate size. They would receive a roll of screen material consisting of a specifically designed optical diffuser material laminated to various substrates.

This appears to be similar to what the person who started this thread (Robert Hart) eventually went to market with -- the Zebra black screen. On his website (link here) you can order a roll of his laminated black screen material at a cost of $950 for a 100" 1.85:1 screen size. So the new material appears to be the second commercial option to develop out of this DIY thread.


Totally agree! I was just thinking the exact same thing while reading the past few posts. I really enjoy everyone's ideas and results on this forum. But as detailed and descriptive as the results are, the answer of materials used seems very vague at times. It becomes the assumption now that when someone doesn't detail their materials and just discloses their findings that they are in it to make a buck rather than support a true DIY mentality. I really hate that feeling.

Lets keep those ideas coming because some of us whom are unfortunately less educated in the ways of screen performance/materials are dependent on the knowledge of some of you senior-ed forum users to share your greatness.

At the end of it all regardless, your posts are much appreciated.
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post #1102 of 1359 Old 07-24-2015, 08:37 AM
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I got so excited I am trying to go back and read this whole thread. It's taking a while but it has some good info. J Bone I noticed that humblehub curved his vinyl screen but it looks like you did not. Do you have any issues with uniformity? I am thinking about giving vinyl a try. What do you guys think about using hardboard and painting it with a gloss black or something like that? The hardboard should be a little cheaper than acrylic but should still give a smooth finish. The reason for the painting it gloss black is to block any light passing through the vinyl and allow the wet application of the vinyl.

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post #1103 of 1359 Old 07-24-2015, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Ninja View Post
I got so excited I am trying to go back and read this whole thread. It's taking a while but it has some good info. J Bone I noticed that humblehub curved his vinyl screen but it looks like you did not. Do you have any issues with uniformity? I am thinking about giving vinyl a try. What do you guys think about using hardboard and painting it with a gloss black or something like that? The hardboard should be a little cheaper than acrylic but should still give a smooth finish. The reason for the painting it gloss black is to block any light passing through the vinyl and allow the wet application of the vinyl.
Because getting a perfectly smooth layer of gloss paint can be pretty difficult, you might consider looking for either a 4X8 panel that's finished to look like wood-grain (they make versions that are practically glass-smooth that should work well) OR a large melamine panel..the panel that looks and works like a giant dry-erase board for only $8-10.

I don't believe the vinyl had any problems with showing color through when attached to an opaque surface, painting was only important for blocking light-bleedthrough if the vinyl was left alone or attached to something transparent..and some light was behind it.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #1104 of 1359 Old 07-24-2015, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Ninja View Post
I got so excited I am trying to go back and read this whole thread. It's taking a while but it has some good info. J Bone I noticed that humblehub curved his vinyl screen but it looks like you did not. Do you have any issues with uniformity? I am thinking about giving vinyl a try. What do you guys think about using hardboard and painting it with a gloss black or something like that? The hardboard should be a little cheaper than acrylic but should still give a smooth finish. The reason for the painting it gloss black is to block any light passing through the vinyl and allow the wet application of the vinyl.
Because getting a perfectly smooth layer of gloss paint can be pretty difficult, you might consider looking for either a 4X8 panel that's finished to look like wood-grain (they make versions that are practically glass-smooth that should work well) OR a large melamine panel..the panel that looks and works like a giant dry-erase board for only $8-10.

I don't believe the vinyl had any problems with showing color through when attached to an opaque surface, painting was only important for blocking light-bleedthrough if the vinyl was left alone or attached to something transparent..and some light was behind it.
Ftoast is correct again! I had considered using the dry erase board type panel as well due to its cost. But unfortunately at the local Home Depot and Lowes I wasn't convinced of any pieces I saw to be completely free of any blemishes or warps.

Now I did have the same concern about possible light bleeding through the vinyl and easily showing through the transparent polycarbonate sheet. So a simple fix for myself was just to use half of the cardboard that the sheet was shipped in to staple to the back of the wood frame I made. That was a last minute step I added but did not take pictures of so I did not bother to mention it on my assembly process.
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post #1105 of 1359 Old 07-25-2015, 01:05 AM
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The idea to use such material - polycarbonate..From the front of a matte finish,but on the back of a dark material.The point is not to give to light the dark layer..
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Last edited by HCORE; 07-25-2015 at 01:14 AM.
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post #1106 of 1359 Old 08-01-2015, 01:46 PM
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3D dark layer...
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post #1107 of 1359 Old 08-01-2015, 02:02 PM
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Another option for a transparent sheet of plastic sticking clear tape,this tape is a strong layer of black mesh(chiffon),then another layer of double-sided transparent adhesive tape and another layer of black chiffon,and so on until you get visually is completely black background ..On the other side of this transparent plastic is applied semitransparent reflecting the mix... In principle the materials are available and not expensive(and may be a good option tester?)
Light from the side will not light the black layer and the picture will contrast..
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post #1108 of 1359 Old 08-02-2015, 08:05 PM
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The point moves slowly but ..Check black layer..
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Last edited by HCORE; 08-02-2015 at 08:11 PM.
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post #1109 of 1359 Old 08-13-2015, 09:13 AM
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While black 3D layer no time to deal with(in the future the screen) until the screen from grey fabric coated transparent reflective mixture(looks good).
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post #1110 of 1359 Old 08-13-2015, 10:26 AM
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I have tried the Avery Matte Metallic Charcoal Vinyl with a LG PF1500G projector (the worse European version, Largo has not been released yet). So far I'm pretty disappointed with the performance, but I will try UHP lamp projectors as well ... I will attach some pictures where you can see the projected images on the vinyl and on the (dirty) white back side of the PVC hard foam board. I see a lot of shimmering, bad viewing angles, and hot spotting. The projector is about 3.2 metres away from the screen on the floor, the screen is on the floor as well. When I stand up, the image gets a bit better (brighter), I have yet to test other placement possibilities with this screen.

PS: Please bear with me, the screen build is not finished yet, I still need to apply some felt border
PPS: I have no experience with projectors and screens, this is my first setup.

EDIT: The last picture seems to exaggerate the situtation, it is not that unwatchable, but still uncomfortably dark
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Last edited by skogaard; 08-13-2015 at 10:30 AM.
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