DIY black screen tests - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 650 Old 02-19-2014, 08:48 AM
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Is this the one you used? http://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/10491

Looks ok for a setup like that, what projector are you using? Normal or Eco Mode? Wonder how it would perform if you stretched it over mylar?


Yes that's it. The projector is an hd131xe on eco mode.

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post #182 of 650 Old 02-19-2014, 02:21 PM
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I haven't made up my mind but since the projector came I had to get something. I ended up with some black out cloth (white) as a baseline. Then because it's so easy to work with, I got a couple of yards of spandex....specifically matte milleskin charcoal and matte moleskin white as a backing
(...)
So not horrible. Not completely perfect but good for 60 bucks shipped.

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I'm just uploaded a video of a test using lining-fabric I made last week: http://youtu.be/oAt0vGHhBUA

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post #183 of 650 Old 02-19-2014, 03:13 PM
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Do you have any pics on the black material from Gerriets? Did you try it together with a reflective layer?

 

Uploaded http://youtu.be/cvdfamWelSA

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post #184 of 650 Old 02-20-2014, 05:25 AM
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Uploaded http://youtu.be/cvdfamWelSA
Hi there, i also am in the journey to achieve a good performanse DIY black screen, i already read all this threat a couple of times and made an online investigation about cost efective materials, seems to me that the window tint seems better than charcoal materials has the absorvent layer, so i am thinking of buying the window tint about 70% LVT, the reflective layer i have an retro-reflective screen with 2.8 gain that it will serve very well and the diffuser layer i am thinking triyng the rosco light translucent rear projection screen that i think its identical of the REVUE that you try. Can you try your reflective material from 3M( that is realy good), the window tint 70%LVT that you try in first review and the rear projector sample REVUE that you try in your last review? I think it will be perfect!
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post #185 of 650 Old 02-20-2014, 06:08 AM
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Hi there, i also am in the journey to achieve a good performanse DIY black screen, i already read all this threat a couple of times and made an online investigation about cost efective materials, seems to me that the window tint seems better than charcoal materials has the absorvent layer, so i am thinking of buying the window tint about 70% LVT, the reflective layer i have an retro-reflective screen with 2.8 gain that it will serve very well and the diffuser layer i am thinking triyng the rosco light translucent rear projection screen that i think its identical of the REVUE that you try. Can you try your reflective material from 3M( that is realy good), the window tint 70%LVT that you try in first review and the rear projector sample REVUE that you try in your last review? I think it will be perfect!

 

Yeah I will do, but I think the Revue is too thick (0.3mm) to show the blackness from the tint, so if you can get something thinner, go for it. The 3M may be too good, and therefore it's difficult to prevent hotspots. It might be a good idea to put a diffuse layer on both sides of the tint to counter the retro-reflective effect some more. It's also not really cheap with araound 70$ per square meter...

 

 

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post #186 of 650 Old 02-20-2014, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cylab View Post
 

 

I'm just uploaded a video of a test using lining-fabric I made last week: http://youtu.be/oAt0vGHhBUA

 

Looks good! At 00.43, is it hotspotting you see or is the actual image brighter at that specific spot?

 

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Uploaded http://youtu.be/cvdfamWelSA

 

Great work! As you said, it was really opaque. Looks really great as a rear projection though, but really dark as a front projection screen! It looked really good together with that other diffuser. What's the price range on those films?

 

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Originally Posted by lgreis View Post


Hi there, i also am in the journey to achieve a good performanse DIY black screen, i already read all this threat a couple of times and made an online investigation about cost efective materials, seems to me that the window tint seems better than charcoal materials has the absorvent layer, so i am thinking of buying the window tint about 70% LVT, the reflective layer i have an retro-reflective screen with 2.8 gain that it will serve very well and the diffuser layer i am thinking triyng the rosco light translucent rear projection screen that i think its identical of the REVUE that you try. Can you try your reflective material from 3M( that is realy good), the window tint 70%LVT that you try in first review and the rear projector sample REVUE that you try in your last review? I think it will be perfect!

 

Nice have you here Igreis! You got my attention when you mentioned Rosco, I have thought about their products for a while now and I've done some small scale tests with their films, but not their "official" rear projection films. I've got samples of all of their +e-colour series, I believe it has got a different name in the US. But I've gotten some really good results with their films (normally used for stage lighting etc

 

The quality of the film is really great and the price range is great too! Here in Sweden (which is a very expensive country) a 50"x25' roll costs 106$. 1/2 White frost is a very good diffuser, but It's quite white, not clear as we'd like it to be. Though, I painted a mix of aluminium and black paint on the back of it and got really good results. Also hade some good results with the neutral density frost filter from Rosco. The problem is that it wasn't completely neutral, it gave the image a warm tone (It could probably be calibrated away by increasing the kelvin on the projector).

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post #187 of 650 Old 02-20-2014, 06:54 AM
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Looks good! At 00.43, is it hotspotting you see or is the actual image brighter at that specific spot?

 

Unfortunately it's hotspotting due to the used frozen window film. You can see it again in the lower left corner at 1:03, when PI jumps in the water. I ordered some sheets of tracing paper to see, if the effect gets better with non-plastic diffusers.

 

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Great work! As you said, it was really opaque. Looks really great as a rear projection though, but really dark as a front projection screen! It looked really good together with that other diffuser. What's the price range on those films?

 

Both, the SHOW and the REVUE are between 18€ - 22€ per running meter on a roll of 2.02m width, so only around 10€ per square meter! The online shop states, they only sell at least 5 running meters per product and don't do orders < 100€ (shipping and tax excluded), so a minumum order I tested came about 160€ for 2x6m of REVUE included shipping and tax in their online shop. But you may be able to get a better deal by calling them. With the samples I got was a statement, that they charge 35€ extra for orders that are below 100€ or need special packaging.

 

So you might get away with 2*22€ Revue + 2*22€ Show + 32€ shipping + 35€ Extra = 155€ for a 2*2m (they don't sell partial meters) two layer screen. (This is of course for shipping in Germany)

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post #188 of 650 Old 02-20-2014, 07:17 AM
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This is a very small scale test of Mylar > 15% VLT Tint > 0.6 ND Frost from Rosco. The material itself is almost pitch black. Ofc it's got a low gain, but it reflects a lot of light for being this dark. (Notice the warm tin't it ads, even though my iPhone is far from color accurate, it gives you an idea)

 

The problem in my case is that the projector is to powerful, even in Eco Mode (I'm trying to get down to somewhere between 15 - 25 foot lamberts, instead of current 45 foot lamberts), and with white walls the contrast shines by its absence!

 

 

 

This was the (bit too dark) .6 ND Frost, I'll upload more pics when I get the opportunity.

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This mylar, 15% VLT tint and Rosco 1/4 White Diffusion. This material is almost black, and gives great contrast, but hotspotting is a fact. So, the 1/4 White Diffusion is too thin and too shiny (you can se the lens of the projector in black part, the purple dot)

 

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post #190 of 650 Old 02-20-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lgreis View Post


Hi there, i also am in the journey to achieve a good performanse DIY black screen, i already read all this threat a couple of times and made an online investigation about cost efective materials, seems to me that the window tint seems better than charcoal materials has the absorvent layer, so i am thinking of buying the window tint about 70% LVT, the reflective layer i have an retro-reflective screen with 2.8 gain that it will serve very well and the diffuser layer i am thinking triyng the rosco light translucent rear projection screen that i think its identical of the REVUE that you try. Can you try your reflective material from 3M( that is realy good), the window tint 70%LVT that you try in first review and the rear projector sample REVUE that you try in your last review? I think it will be perfect!


Uploaded http://youtu.be/rJkjoWH02xU

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post #191 of 650 Old 02-20-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Future Cinema View Post
 

This mylar, 15% VLT tint and Rosco 1/4 White Diffusion. This material is almost black, and gives great contrast, but hotspotting is a fact. So, the 1/4 White Diffusion is too thin and too shiny (you can se the lens of the projector in black part, the purple dot)

 

15% VLT is way too dark I think. Also the problem still remains, that the window tint is reflecting, too. It seems that the diffuse layer at least needs to be glued tight to the window tint to reduce the window tint reflections and the diffuser should also not reflect itself. This was the reason I tried to spray on the 3M. When I have it, I will try to spray on the back of the tracing paper and apply this directly on the reflective layer... lets see.

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post #192 of 650 Old 02-20-2014, 04:03 PM
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Uploaded http://youtu.be/rJkjoWH02xU

I think the difuser layer always has to be in the first place and the tint under it, and the diffuser has always to have a mate finish. The tint layer always have a glossy finish so doesnt work has the first layer
Rosco sells the light translucent rear projection film 1.40m wide – 14.50€/linear meter; 2.20m wide – 24.70€/linear meter; 2.80m wide – 43.50€/linear meter and dont have other rules!
Can you try the REVUE difuser, the tint 70% VLT under the difuser and the reflective layer under the tint, Thats how it is supose to work
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post #193 of 650 Old 02-20-2014, 05:33 PM
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Looks good! At 00.43, is it hotspotting you see or is the actual image brighter at that specific spot?


Great work! As you said, it was really opaque. Looks really great as a rear projection though, but really dark as a front projection screen! It looked really good together with that other diffuser. What's the price range on those films?


Nice have you here Igreis! You got my attention when you mentioned Rosco, I have thought about their products for a while now and I've done some small scale tests with their films, but not their "official" rear projection films. I've got samples of all of their +e-colour series, I believe it has got a different name in the US. But I've gotten some really good results with their films (normally used for stage lighting etc

The quality of the film is really great and the price range is great too! Here in Sweden (which is a very expensive country) a 50"x25' roll costs 106$. 1/2 White frost is a very good diffuser, but It's quite white, not clear as we'd like it to be. Though, I painted a mix of aluminium and black paint on the back of it and got really good results. Also hade some good results with the neutral density frost filter from Rosco. The problem is that it wasn't completely neutral, it gave the image a warm tone (It could probably be calibrated away by increasing the kelvin on the projector).
I think the light translucent rear projector film from Rosco is color neutral and they say that has very good difuser properties, i dont know what the percentage of light transmission is but i think maybe 88% to 92% in mate finish, so no hotspots and almost no reflections
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post #194 of 650 Old 02-23-2014, 11:34 AM
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I think the difuser layer always has to be in the first place and the tint under it, and the diffuser has always to have a mate finish. The tint layer always have a glossy finish so doesnt work has the first layer
Rosco sells the light translucent rear projection film 1.40m wide – 14.50€/linear meter; 2.20m wide – 24.70€/linear meter; 2.80m wide – 43.50€/linear meter and dont have other rules!
Can you try the REVUE difuser, the tint 70% VLT under the difuser and the reflective layer under the tint, Thats how it is supose to work

Erm. I actually did in that video. I've just shown the black layers alone before I've put the REVUE on top...
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post #195 of 650 Old 02-23-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lgreis View Post

Rosco sells the light translucent rear projection film 1.40m wide – 14.50€/linear meter; 2.20m wide – 24.70€/linear meter; 2.80m wide – 43.50€/linear meter and dont have other rules!

Hmm. Their website says "100 square foot minimum." Where did you get that prices from and where do you live? If you already have that Rosco, make some photos or a video of it. From the description it looks quite right, since it's nearly half the thickness of the revue. But maybe it's too translucent...

 

The problem with the window tint is, that it's shiny by itself. hopefully this is no problem, when it's tightly glued to the diffuser, but I don't know. Given that Rosco also sells a 7mil (0.17mm) black rear projection screen, going 3M > Rosco Black > Rosco Light Translucent seems like an option. If you would get this on a curved surface to circumvent the hotspotting, it would probably look ace...

 

Speaking of curved surfaces, look what happened which my painted foam board after it dried over night:

 

 

So get the right size of foam board, paint it, let it dry, glue some high gain screen on it, voila :)

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post #196 of 650 Old 02-23-2014, 03:10 PM
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Uploaded http://youtu.be/rJkjoWH02xU

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Erm. I actually did in that video. I've just shown the black layers alone before I've put the REVUE on top...

Sorry, my bad... just saw the beggining on the first time!
I think you are right about the thickness of the REVUE, maybe it has to be less thick and more translucent, to cancel the glossy of the tint layer. Or using a tint with 50% or even 35% LVT. But the problem with less LVT is the need for a better reflective layer and a more powerfull projector. On your first review when you use the frosted difusser the problem was the glossy of the diffuser, if the difuser was mate, maybe the result was very good
I didnt saw the need of a minimum buy, first i was thinking of buy from UK, http://www.flints.co.uk/acatalog/Rosco_Projection_Screens_Light_Translucent.html. I think they sell per linear metre, but i found here in Portugal a seller near my house that sells that also and i think they sell also per linear meter and dont have a minimum requirement, or i hope so! I didnt bought yet the Rosco, i am still investigating alternatives and email diferent brands, but are not so cheap ones. So i think the rosco is the way to go, and if its half the thickness of the REVUE it will be good with a 70%LVT tint. I will only have time to buy and test in a couple of weeks. It will be good if they give some samples to try. About the black rosco, it only have a Light transmission of 6% so maybe the picture become too dimm
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post #197 of 650 Old 02-24-2014, 09:19 AM
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15% VLT is way too dark I think. Also the problem still remains, that the window tint is reflecting, too. It seems that the diffuse layer at least needs to be glued tight to the window tint to reduce the window tint reflections and the diffuser should also not reflect itself. This was the reason I tried to spray on the 3M. When I have it, I will try to spray on the back of the tracing paper and apply this directly on the reflective layer... lets see.

Indeed, but 15% VLT was the only tint (and is still is) I have at home. I've ordered 30% VLT, gonna try with that when I get it. 

 

Btw, what is this charcoal tint folks talking about here? Whats the difference from a charcoal tint and an average "normal" tint film?

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Hi guys! I am from Russia and I write through the translator Google, so sorry if that is not clear in my words 
You use three layers 
1 is reflective silver or reflective film as on road signs? 
2 Black is a material or film car window? 
3 Matte light diffusing film or film rear projection? 
Please give the answer in detail if possible with reference to the materials that you use 
Once again I'm sorry if you do not clearly lay out!

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Hi guys! I am from Russia and I write through the translator Google, so sorry if that is not clear in my words 
You use three layers 
1 is reflective silver or reflective film as on road signs? 
2 Black is a material or film car window? 
3 Matte light diffusing film or film rear projection? 
Please give the answer in detail if possible with reference to the materials that you use 
Once again I'm sorry if you do not clearly lay out!


Translation is good. You could have kept the original russian posts for other russian visitors. Unfortunately we are in the process of investigating and at least I did not find satisfactory solutions yet.

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post #200 of 650 Old 02-25-2014, 05:38 AM
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Спасибо! 
Я пытался варианты с краской, получить хорошую контрастность, но углы обзора очень плохо 
Сегодня купил кусок ткани примерно так же серого ogpedxing только 80% нейлон, 20% спандекс плохой результат, я не понимаю, откуда у него белый цвет на проекции
, а не пытаться использовать заднюю проекцию фильм с черным слоем за?

 

Новый дизайн  invented a new recipe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6_SqmiGe2w

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Yeah, I've actually asked him about it. It's commercially made for him by a manufacturer and he sells for example a 110" screen at about 1000$, which I think is a good price in comparison to other competors. Especially since he is using microprism lenses in this. You can get films using this material, but it is quite expensive and I've only found materials that have an hexagon pattern on it :/

 

The problem with all the freely available materials is, that they are targeted at specific use-cases. The retro-reflective material for example is made for traffic signs or safety clothes. The benefit is, that you don't have hotspots based on the angle to the screen, but the brightness is depending on your position "off-axis", which means the distance between you and the projector-lightbeam. The problem with that is, that the effect is _very_ narrow, so that I actually don't see any brightness gain when sitting down on my couch, while the projector is hanging above me on the ceiling.

 

To overcome this problem, we would need a diffusor that spreads the reflected light evenly in a lets say 60° cone, so that you can still benefit from the gain when sitting up to 30° away from the projection axis. Unfortunately the products suitable for that (like http://www.luminitco.com/products/light-shaping-diffusers) are not available to consumers or are not delivered in the needed seemless sizes. They also seem very expensive.

 

So the current idea is to use transparent drawing paper (tracing paper, map paper, architect paper), but they won't have the perfect properties.

 

The next problem is the black layer. The films we tried are all glossy and therefor produce hotspots we don't want. This may be countered by glueing the diffuser tight on it, but best would be to have a non-glossy material in the first place.

 

I will probably do a new test with the tracing paper later today, so lets see...

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post #202 of 650 Old 02-25-2014, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by New Design View Post

I wanted to add some updated information based on some recent material tests. I have been working on the assumption that all window tint brands are created equal as long as you select one with the right amount of light transmission. As some of you know, I use a charcoal pvc material for the dark layer on my black-screen, not window tint. I have tested window tint in the passed and had good results with it.

The latest testing gave me different results that I had seen with other brands of tint. Image 1 shows a piece of 30% window tint. The 2nd image shows how black it looks when held against a reflective layer. These films always look darker or lighter when you add an layer underneath unless they have no light transmission. This one looked almost completely black.

The 3rd and 4th pics show how it looked when I made up a finished screen sample piece. It looks a little creased as I used some old left over diffuser film for the test and it has seen better days. That aside, you can see that the result is a fairly dark looking screen sample. The image doesn't accurately reflect how it looked in person. It actually looks a little darker still, but without light shinning on it, I couldn't capture a photo of it.

Images 5 and 6 showed that it gave a decent image from front and canter. Image 5 shows that even with the lights on, it gave black blacks and bright whites. Head on, it actually looked slightly brighter than my screen. Where if was different, was off axis viewing. In my screen, the front 2 layers both have a light diffusing surface. This allows me to get away with a thinner, more transparent diffuser on top. Together, I get a fairly even level of brightness.

The glossy near black window tint gave a far narrower viewing cone. I am not sure if it is because this sample was blacker that previous window tints I have experimented with, or a limitation from using only one diffuser. Images 7 and 8 show the difference in brightness between on-axis viewing and off-axis viewing. I would note that with the transparent diffuser on top, I got no hot spots from the glossy tinted layer underneath. It is well know that black screen materials have a narrower viewing cone so one that is this close to black is bound to have a narrower cone than my charcoal material.

Perhaps that trade off might be worth it for owners of less powerful projectors who only watch from on-axis seats. For me, I would consider this sample to be too dark and limiting. With this brand, Ii would have chosen a lighter film with higher transmission to give a broader viewing cone. As an alternative, I would add a second layer of clear diffuser film between the reflective layer and the tint. This probably explains why the LG screen has its diffuser behind the tinted layer. It then uses its anti glare hard coat like I use the transparent diffuser.

I just wanted to add that update to save somebody from buying tint that is too dark for their set-up. Make sure you get samples first before buying a larger roll. It seems like there is some variation between the properties of 2 films with identicle light transmission from different brands. I don't remember what brand I tried last time which doesn't help much. I am not saying this brand doesn't work, just that I would have gone with a 35% or even 40% tint with the brand. Last time, I used tint, I used 2 layers of 50% tint which were light in appearance individually, but black when held together .

Has new design said above, the transparent diffuser on top of the tint glossy layer the screen has no hotspots, maybe he is using a very thin transparent difuser layer, a very LVT tint layer (70% or 50%) and the new microprism lenses reflective layer!!
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post #203 of 650 Old 02-25-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lgreis View Post


Has new design said above, the transparent diffuser on top of the tint glossy layer the screen has no hotspots, maybe he is using a very thin transparent difuser layer, a very LVT tint layer (70% or 50%) and the new microprism lenses reflective layer!!


I think his new stuff is fully build by a manufacturer from his specs. I think it is more something like http://www.pronatindustries.com/eng/prod_files.php?fid=970&actions=show&id=631. I also doubt that you can put this together yourself and achieve such a quality in DIY manner.

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post #204 of 650 Old 02-26-2014, 04:42 AM
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Hmm. Looks I forgot to post this: http://www.peauproductions.com/diffusers.html

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post #205 of 650 Old 02-26-2014, 08:36 AM
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Прозрачный черный слой можно получить путем смешивания бесцветный матовый лак с черной краской, желательно На водной основе 

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  •  ВЫ из какой страны?

Transparent black layer can be prepared by mixing a colorless matt lacquer with black paint, preferably water-based

 

(Google translation courtesy of Mod)

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post #206 of 650 Old 02-26-2014, 09:45 AM
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Quote:

Transparent black layer can be prepared by mixing a colorless matt lacquer with black paint, preferably water-based

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  •  YOU of what country?

I am from Germany. Regarding the black layer, I recently bought pigment-free printer ink and wanted to spray directly on the back of the diffuser (maybe weaken it by mixing with water?). To test it, I printed a dithered pattern on the back of a tracing paper sheet and the result was quite promising, but the tracing paper I had still blocks too much light itself.

 

Currently I am a bit frustrated, because the more I experiement, the more I get the impression, that the result I am after would not be achievable using low-cost materials... :/

 

Btw. as I said you could keep the russian, I ment in addition to the translation ;)

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post #207 of 650 Old 02-26-2014, 09:55 AM
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Сообщение от Cylab Посмотреть сообщение
 

Я из Германии. Что касается черного слоя, я недавно купил пигмента без чернил принтера и хотел, чтобы распылить непосредственно на задней части диффузора (возможно ослабить его путем смешивания с водой?). Чтобы проверить это, я напечатал сглаживание узор на спине трассировки лист бумаги, и результат был весьма перспективным, но калька у меня было еще блоки сам слишком много света.

 

В настоящее время я немного расстроен, потому что чем больше я experiement, тем больше я получаю впечатление, что результат я после не будет достижимо, используя недорогие материалы ... :/

 

Кстати. как я уже сказал, вы могли держать русский, я Мент в дополнение к. переводу ;)

 

 

I am from Germany . As for the black layer , I recently bought a pigment without printer ink and wanted to spray directly on the rear diffuser (possibly weaken it by mixing with water ?) . To test this, I typed smoothing pattern on the back tracing paper , and the result was very promising , but I was tracing more blocks himself too much light.

At the moment I'm a little upset because the more I experiement, the more I get the impression that after the result I will not be achievable using inexpensive materials ... :/

By the way . as I said , you can keep Russian , I ment in addition o Translation

 

(Google translation courtesy of Mod)

Я до недавнего времени очень часто бывал в Бремен

Чёрная матовая краска + бесцветный матовый лак кажется будет лучше

Вы пробовали задней проекции плёнку? Как результат?

Я уже потратил на всякую дребедень около 150 евро

​А сносного результата нет

 

I, until recently, a very frequent visitor to Bremen 
Matt black paint + colorless matte varnish seems to be better 
Have you tried the rear projection film? As a result? 
I have already spent on all sorts of rubbish about 150 euros 
And the result is not tolerable

 

(Google translation courtesy of Mod)

 

rear projection film I want to buy on the sample, the result will be?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Projection-Film-SAMPLE-A-5-size-Holographic-or-Daylight-transparent-grey-/321311117327?pt=US_Projection_Screens_Material&hash=item4acfa2900f

 

Go to me to be only about 30 days:)

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post #208 of 650 Old 02-26-2014, 10:22 AM
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Мы приглашаем всех, но большинство говорит на английском языке!

Folks from all countries are welcome here, but our primary language is English. If you use anything else, responses may be rather limited!

Thank you!
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post #209 of 650 Old 02-26-2014, 10:24 AM
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Сообщение от prof55 Посмотреть сообщение

Мы приглашаем всех, но большинство говорит на английском языке! Люди из всех стран приглашаются сюда, но наш основной язык английский. Если вы используете что-нибудь еще, ответы могут быть весьма ограничены! Спасибо! AVS Модератор



 

Ок

Вы удалили мой последний сообщение?

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post #210 of 650 Old 02-26-2014, 11:02 AM
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I am sure he did not delete a message of yours by purpose. Maybe your edits just conflicted.

 

Just paste your russian text directly from the editor to google translate and copy the translation back under your original text before clicking the [ SUBMIT ] button.

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