Wrap blackout cloth around frame or just stay on the back? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 08-31-2013, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I've seen a few different projects of people placing the fabric on the frame two different ways. One is laying the frame on the fabric, then taking the fabric and wrapping it around and stapling it to the back of the frame. The other way I've seen is people just stretching it on the backside of the frame and then stapling it to the back.

Are there advantages to one way over the other? Has one proven to most successful over the other? I guess the biggest question becomes how the black border gets developed in each situation.

What you guys think?
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post #2 of 16 Old 09-03-2013, 08:40 AM
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If you are stapling the BOC to the face of the frame that would be the front of the screen and the velvet wrapped border would have to be sized so that the staples are covered . You lose some of the viewing area of the frame by doing that.. If you wrap around the frame and staple to the back the frame size can be your screen size and you can do a zero edge screen or build the border around the outside edge of the frame. You could also attach the border to the front of the frame but you would lose some viewing size just like in the first example. If you size the frame to account for the border the screen size is the inside dimension of your border and the frame is sized larger than the border to allow for the border attachment to the frame.
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post #3 of 16 Old 09-03-2013, 09:14 AM
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  • Stapling to the rear alone leaves a far too deep frame edge that is extremely difficult to then paint on, or cover with applicable black surround material. It also promotes a shadow onto the image under almost all circumstances.
  • Placing the Frame on top the material and wrapping / stapling onto the backside of the Frame isn't going to allow for effective stretching, and risks marring the underlying surface. Instead, if a Zero Edge surface is contemplated, stapling to the "Sides" while laying the material "on top" would be the preferred method. It won't be easy though.......however a additional benefit is that the outside edge of the Frame helps equalize the tension and prevent staple pullout.
  • Building a Frame so that it's perimeter size encompasses the area that will receive the over-laid Trim is the norm, and represents the easiest method. It also helps prevent the possibility of Frame surface deformations showing through the outside surface of the material, the latter being covered with the Trim.

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post #4 of 16 Old 09-03-2013, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

  • Stapling to the rear alone leaves a far too deep frame edge that is extremely difficult to then paint on, or cover with applicable black surround material. It also promotes a shadow onto the image under almost all circumstances.
  • Placing the Frame on top the material and wrapping / stapling onto the backside of the Frame isn't going to allow for effective stretching, and risks marring the underlying surface. Instead, if a Zero Edge surface is contemplated, stapling to the "Sides" while laying the material "on top" would be the preferred method. It won't be easy though.......however a additional benefit is that the outside edge of the Frame helps equalize the tension and prevent staple pullout.
  • Building a Frame so that it's perimeter size encompasses the area that will receive the over-laid Trim is the norm, and represents the easiest method. It also helps prevent the possibility of Frame surface deformations showing through the outside surface of the material, the latter being covered with the Trim.

Thanks Mississippi. Can you explain or show a link for the process of that last bullet point? I too thought that maybe stapling just on the back would leave a shadow.
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post #5 of 16 Old 09-03-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

Thanks Mississippi. Can you explain or show a link for the process of that last bullet point? I too thought that maybe stapling just on the back would leave a shadow.

Here is a diagram showing the process of stapling. Use 1/4" T50 Staples, and if possible, a "Overhand" stapler. Electric Staplers do not seem well suited for this task.

First...when you build a Frame with any center supports, be sure to have those supports inset to prevent them from touching the center.



Here is that diagram.....



Gently lay the selected material evenly across the Frame.....



As the last image shows, I went back and stapled the sides as well, then trimmed off the excess material.



The material shown is Spandex, but everything shown applies to the use of any cloth / Vinyl material.

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post #6 of 16 Old 09-03-2013, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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So you are stretching it across the front of the screen and putting staples on the perimeter of the front, correct?
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post #7 of 16 Old 09-03-2013, 11:46 AM
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You are stretching across the front and putting staples into the outside edges of the frame.
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post #8 of 16 Old 09-03-2013, 12:05 PM
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I did both....first on the front, then returning...and while standing up the Screen, I went around the outside edges then trimmed off the remaining excess material.

It was done more as a "neatening up" sorta thing more than anything else.

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post #9 of 16 Old 09-04-2013, 01:37 PM
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How would you suggest offsetting the center supports when using 1x4s? I am planning on laying the frame flat instead of standing on end.

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post #10 of 16 Old 09-04-2013, 01:59 PM
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Your not going to get sufficient lateral rigidity from a 1x4.Frame, unless it is secured to the wall around it's perimeter to correct any "twist" caused by the tension of the Fabric.

Of course size has much to do with how much concern the above will entail.

I would use hand picked 2x4s ripped to 2x3...with at least two additional 2x4s ripped to 1.25 for the center supports as a minimum.

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post #11 of 16 Old 11-20-2013, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Mississippi man. I'm just about to start making my projection screen, but I happened to notice something in the pictures in this thread. I'm not sure if the frame is using 2x4, 1x4 or what, but my question is this: I've seen some people make their screens with the border being more flat, meaning, the 4 inch is laying flat as opposed to the 1 or 2 inch side. Is there any particular reason why one would choose one way over the other?

Also, if the MDF that you suggest is 3.25 inches wide, this would of course mean that the velvet wrapped border would not be flush with the frame if the front of the frame is only 1 inch wide, correct? The part of MDF that sinks down (I know not the correct terminology, but the part where it is thinner) will extend towards the inside of the frame and the thicker part of the MDF will be flush with the frame? Maybe this doesn't make sense when I type it, but it makes total sense in my head.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the dimensions of the border and the frame are not equal, so what should the layout be when you nail in the MDF to the frame? Just want to make sure I'm getting this correct. Thanks!!
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post #12 of 16 Old 11-21-2013, 02:23 AM
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In the photos referenced above, I used selected, straight 2x4" (1.5" x 3.5") lumber because I wanted the added rigidity such lumber would provide such a large frame. Also, I knew there would be a center Channel speaker residing behind the Screen in a Wall Pocket, but with at least 2" protruding past the wall's surface.

Also, the frame was sized so that 3.25" MDF Base Trim could be affixed using the 1.5" face of the Lumber for a "Nailer", with the "Tapered" edge at the inside being the correct dimension required for the given Format. The Trim's 3.25" width was essentially "centered" on the 1.5" width of the Frame, so there was plenty of support.

1" x 4" lumber would by necessity have to be placed / used in the "Flat position....for both the prevention of warp'age / stress related deformation, as well as providing adequate "Face" for applying Trim. 3/4" would not allow for enough support, resulting in either the inside or outside edges of the Trim pitching inward or outward.

But also, when using 1" x 4" in a "Flat" position, barring your ripping the 1x4 down about 1/2", one must make the inside dimension of the Frame match or be slightly "less than" that of the inside dimensions of the Trim. That would mean it would be best to use the next size up in width of MDF Trim and rip it lengthwise down to 3.75" wide so it would allow a very slight overlapping of both the inside and outside edges of the Frame.
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post #13 of 16 Old 11-21-2013, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

In the photos referenced above, I used selected, straight 2x4" (1.5" x 3.5") lumber because I wanted the added rigidity such lumber would provide such a large frame. Also, I knew there would be a center Channel speaker residing behind the Screen in a Wall Pocket, but with at least 2" protruding past the wall's surface.

Also, the frame was sized so that 3.25" MDF Base Trim could be affixed using the 1.5" face of the Lumber for a "Nailer", with the "Tapered" edge at the inside being the correct dimension required for the given Format. The Trim's 3.25" width was essentially "centered" on the 1.5" width of the Frame, so there was plenty of support.

1" x 4" lumber would by necessity have to be placed / used in the "Flat position....for both the prevention of warp'age / stress related deformation, as well as providing adequate "Face" for applying Trim. 3/4" would not allow for enough support, resulting in either the inside or outside edges of the Trim pitching inward or outward.

But also, when using 1" x 4" in a "Flat" position, barring your ripping the 1x4 down about 1/2", one must make the inside dimension of the Frame match or be slightly "less than" that of the inside dimensions of the Trim. That would mean it would be best to use the next size up in width of MDF Trim and rip it lengthwise down to 3.75" wide so it would allow a very slight overlapping of both the inside and outside edges of the Frame.

Thanks for the response. That makes sense to me now. Now, being that my screen will be around 96-98 inches diagonal, do you think I could get away with 1x3 as opposed to 1x4 for my frame? My screen is going in somewhat of a tight space and I will be having tower speakers on each side, so I'm trying to create room for that. If I went with 1x3, I would think the 3.25 inch wide MDF would fit perfect on the 3 inch side of the wood. Once centered, that would only leave .12 inches overhand on each side of the border that sits on the frame. Thoughts? I should also add I do plan on placing a support in the middle of the frame inset so it does not hit the cloth.

Also, remind me again the wood you suggest to buy for the frame? My hope at some point is to mount a TV behind the screen as well, so I think I need to find a way to have the frame mounted out away from the wall a bit. I was thinking just installing some hooks to the studs and set it on there. Does that seem alright?

And lastly, when people put two layers of the spandex (I plan on doing white over silver), should it be done separately at a time or done together at the same time? Thanks so much MIssissippi!!
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post #14 of 16 Old 11-21-2013, 01:27 PM
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My screen is with a 1x3 frame with two center supports and 120" diagonal white over silver spandex. As long as you have adequate stiffness to the frame so that you don't get twisting you should be fine. The frame is poplar and the whole thing is very light weight. I did the spandex layers separately and stapled everything. If I were to do it over I probably would have used the screen tight mounting system. That makes it much easier to experiment. I started with silver over white and ended up with white over silver but I have an Epson 8100. It was a "light canon" when I purchased it three years ago but now is a middle of the pack.
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post #15 of 16 Old 03-31-2014, 09:33 AM
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MississippiMan, do you have a step by step tutorial? Is there a reason why you dont just use screen tight?
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post #16 of 16 Old 03-31-2014, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wraunch View Post

MississippiMan, do you have a step by step tutorial? Is there a reason why you dont just use screen tight?

Most of my screens are larger than normal, and I find that I can save time and money by simply using staples. For those who are less adept, or want the ability to change / redo material, a fastening system like screen tight can make sense.

But if using it starts ti interfere with the ability to trim or paint a screen, or simply add more undue expense that necessary (IMO of course...) then to me it seems a superfluous choice at best.

Tutorials? I have posted many on a variety of methods / projects. Pretty much I can help out the most if someone simply directs a specific request.

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