Graywolf Replacement Project? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 10-04-2013, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I've enjoyed my Panoview Graywolf II for many years now. However, I wonder what kind of improvement I could get from a painted solution. I do currently have a Wagner sprayer.

Few notes:
  • I don't like the SSE dirty look of the Graywolf when eye-level so I ceiling mounted for a darker image
  • The above solution also seems to be giving me either a zero or negative gain which seems to improve the black level
  • I have a Mitsubishi HC3800 which needs a little help in the black level arena... but most importantly black levels are simply a top priority to me
  • I do enjoy the slight ambient light rejection of the Graywolf retroreflectivity as I view with slight ambient light maybe 10% of the time

I greatly appreciate advice on recommended materials to paint on and recommended formulas that would improve my image. I suppose I'm looking for blacker blacks with a brighter image / more pop, if possible. Plus the project has always sounded slightly fun to me.

And I will gladly document my project here for others who may want to upgrade/change their Graywolf setup.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 29 Old 10-04-2013, 03:54 PM
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Cory,

For results such as you desire you'll need a Silver/Gray Screen with positive Gain.

RS-MaxxMudd Standard or Silver Fire v2.5 3.0...with the latter being a "best choice".

If your desired screen size is at / under 122" diagonal, Sintra / Kometex PVC Board will offer up the best possible substrate. If your screen size is at / under 100" diagonal, you could go as dark as a Silver Fire v2.5 4.0

What Wagner do you posses?

You limiting factor on going to a larger screen and darker surfaces is the HC3800's 1300 lumen figure. But lets suppose you want 98" diagonal and the PJ can be placed at 10' - 3". With a new Lamp you'd output maximum brightness, and with a 1.2 Gain Silver Fire...a extremely respectable 26 fls. That would put you squarely on 4.0 territory.

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post #3 of 29 Old 10-04-2013, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you very much! I have a Wagner paint ready station.

My desired screen size is 92 or 96 inches.

Thanks!
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post #4 of 29 Old 10-04-2013, 09:29 PM
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I am not familiar with that designation..... can you give me a specific model number? Much of the instructional information that I would provide you is wholly dependent on knowing the specific performance of your particular HVLP rig.

Well, your chosen sides parameters make the job very easy, and quite doable considering your projector's lower lumen output.

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post #5 of 29 Old 10-07-2013, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, if you Google Model # 0529017, you will see it. Thanks again! You are too kind to help out this much.

Thanks!
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post #6 of 29 Old 10-07-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CoryW View Post

Yes, if you Google Model # 0529017, you will see it. Thanks again! You are too kind to help out this much.

I have a similar Model...the Control Spray Max. But I use it with the original 1.5mm Spray head....or a adapted Gracco Head. The "Paint Ready" comes with a 2.2 Needle / Nozzle, and you will note in the description that it states it will / can use non thinned paints and provide a "Roller-like" Finish.

Before the advent of the newer Wagner Models, all Control Sprays came with 1.5 mm Nozzles, and hence the need to considerably thin the paints used with it. Then came the Control Spray Double Duty...with a 2.0 mm Nozzle. Now Wagner has the "Paint Ready" with a 2.2 mm nozzle and more PSI too boot. It's possible to use the newer model effectively, but I can almost guarantee that after 3 coats applied in "Duster" fashion, a sanding will be required to smooth out that "Roller-like" finish, and then two very fast dusters applied to create a surface akin to what the 1.5 mm Nozzles achieve.

It was the changes in the Wagner's "Heads" combined with the "No Name" deal on the Gracco HV2900 that made me jump ship to the Gracco. But brook no mistake, I sorely missed the extra PSI the Wagner Control Spray Plus & max models provided...so using the old CS heads, and adapting the HV2900 head to use on the Wagner hose (..with a 1.5 mm needle conversion too...) created for me the best of all worlds.

That does not apply to you "Normals" though...( ...I now have at least 6 HVLP rigs...) so I primarily...and almost always suggest the Gracco HV2900 / 3500 w/a 1.5 mm Needle conversion, as that combo makes getting NOOBs where they want to be a lot easier...and more affordably.

But as I said above, with care and practice, even a 2.2 mm needle/nozzle equipped Wagner can work. I know because I've had to work 'em myself, so if that is the direction you must go, we can get you to a very satisfactory conclusion.

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post #7 of 29 Old 10-07-2013, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you. I actually haven't used the Wagner yet so I could actually return it to Home Depot if you recommend. However, I think the wife wants to use it for other projects as well.

Recommendation on sand paper? And will you please elaborate on "two very fast dusters applied?"

And which is more easily found, Sintra or Kometex? I'm in Austin, TX. I assume Sintra is the preferred option. And I don't mind spending a bit of money for the optimal surface... I'm also quite nervous about cutting and I'm pretty sure I would need to cut to fit my desired aspect ration.

Thanks!
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post #8 of 29 Old 10-08-2013, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Nevermind on sanding question; found answer here: "use the largest, finest grit sanding sponge you can find. (7" x 9")"
http://www.avsforum.com/t/574241/quick-sanding-quesiton#post_6112436

I will stick with this sprayer for now and make it work as I need the higher flow/PSI for other projects.

I would appreciate any sort of input on locating Sintra in the Central Texas region... or recommended online sources.

Thanks!
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post #9 of 29 Old 10-08-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by CoryW View Post

Nevermind on sanding question; found answer here: "use the largest, finest grit sanding sponge you can find. (7" x 9")"
http://www.avsforum.com/t/574241/quick-sanding-quesiton#post_6112436

Since that post back on '05, there has not been a source for that large a Sanding Sponge. However Home Depot sells on at 9" x 3" x 1" in the Drywall Tools dept. Get the "Fine Grit" type...not "Medium"
Quote:
I will stick with this sprayer for now and make it work as I need the higher flow/PSI for other projects.

OK...but take the time to practice with it before you squirt onto your purchased board. Once your ready we will review what "practice" pertains to. At that conjecture you will either have discovered what a "Duster" is, or be told by others or myself. (...hint: look at my Spraying Videos and read my threads dedicated to spraying.....)

[/uote]I would appreciate any sort of input on locating Sintra in the Central Texas region... or recommended online sources.[/quote]

Oh...I can do better than mere "input"...how about a "source"?

Laird Plastics
10737 King William Dr
Dallas, TX 75220
Manager:Tim Patterson
Phone: 800-272-2344

They will probably stock a "Generic" brand of expanded PVC Foam Sheet. Simply ask for a 5' x 10' x 6mm size in "White". Generic brands are usually considerably less expensive, yet identical in every way.

Delivery is optional and at additional cost.....usually around $40-50.00. But Laird will cut the sheet to the dimensions you state, and wrap it in protective Cardboard if asked (...and you do want to "ask"...)

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post #10 of 29 Old 10-08-2013, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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You are amazing. Thank you!

I suppose what I want to know the most is if this will give me blacker blacks than my Graywolf. And doing a small demo piece would probably answer that question. I just hate to spend lots of money on paint to just test it out.

Do you sell screen samples?

Thanks!
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post #11 of 29 Old 10-08-2013, 11:16 PM
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No...but simply look at the examples that abound on the Forum, and read the reviews, such as on the "Silver Fire End Users Role Call" thread.

I could...even can state irrevocably that you will get exactly what your wanting....but some might say I'm slightly biased. The truth being that even a light shade of RS-MaxxMudd can accomplish what you desire. So Silver FDire....very much all the more so.

But I can...and will state this much.......

..........Get'ter Dun! Time's a'wastin' !

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post #12 of 29 Old 10-09-2013, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryW View Post

You are amazing. Thank you!

I suppose what I want to know the most is if this will give me blacker blacks than my Graywolf. And doing a small demo piece would probably answer that question. I just hate to spend lots of money on paint to just test it out.

Do you sell screen samples?

Basically the only determining factor for answering the question "will this give me blacker blacks than my Graywolf" is always going to be "is it a darker shade of grey than my Graywolf?"
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post #13 of 29 Old 10-09-2013, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Basically the only determining factor for answering the question "will this give me blacker blacks than my Graywolf" is always going to be "is it a darker shade of grey than my Graywolf?"

Good point. I suppose what really matters is how well it avoids attenuating whites and not shift colors. From what I've read, it appears that the Silver Fire will be vastly superior to my Graywolf in that respect. Looking forward to it!

Thanks!
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post #14 of 29 Old 10-12-2013, 05:11 PM
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Good point. I suppose what really matters is how well it avoids attenuating whites and not shift colors. From what I've read, it appears that the Silver Fire will be vastly superior to my Graywolf in that respect. Looking forward to it!

I would say that white attenuation is, again, going to be based on how dark a shade of grey it is. In other words I'd be really surprised if you managed to find any two kinds of screen materials or paints that had essentially similar blacks that didn't also have essentially similar whites. Unfortunately, I don't think your goal of visibly blacker blacks with a visibly brighter image is possible without changing projectors. Light is light. If the brightness of the whites is increased, so is the brightness of the blacks.
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post #15 of 29 Old 10-13-2013, 03:24 PM
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curttard,

While what you state is certainly the accepted wisdom as known to those who only view varied shades of basic Gray, when darker shades of gray are accomplished yet gain is maintained well above the levels such hues normally posses, and that gain is accomplished by using metallics and RGBY components that remain in a suspension and not wholly combined in "solution", the end result is quite different.

Just as truly advanced, multi-layered Mfg Screens use a highly reflective layer in the rear*** while covering it with darker, selective attenuative layers, so do the advanced DIY paint formulas you'll find on / in this Forum.

*** BTW & for the record, the use of Silver metallic Paint, Mirrors and Mylar as a rear layer for darker Gray/Silver top coats effectively predates their use in Mfg screens by at least 2 years. Don't even begin to discount the influence that DIY Screen development has had on the Mfg Screen business (...and vice versa of course...)

The published results by so many SF users completely refutes the proclamations of those who have no experience in using / dealing with such. The OP can easily accomplish exactly what he's aiming for. I effectively "ate the lunch" of the Stewart Gray Hawk all the way back in 2005 using one of the earliest versions of Silver Fire. "Roasted that Bird" as it were. The Gray Wolf is NOT in the same league as the Stewart version......

Your own experience using RS-MM-LL only barely scratches the surface of the potential possible. Why not view the results on this thread starting here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1491387/new-install-paint-suggestions/30#post_23808448 .....and even PM the Member for some "One on One" before you continue your wholesale dismissal of what is possible.

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post #16 of 29 Old 10-13-2013, 03:33 PM
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I've seen no evidence whatsoever of a screen solution that simultaneously provides noticeably darker blacks and brighter whites, nor have I heard any plausible explanation of how such a thing could be possible. Again, light is light. It's a simple question: No matter what "components" are used, why would they boost the whites but not the blacks?
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post #17 of 29 Old 10-13-2013, 08:49 PM
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Curttard, you're correct to a point. With zero reflected light and zero ambient light the screen will have zero effect on contrast. No screen can increase contrast, but a grey screen can help preserve percieved contrast. Mathematically, we can prove the screen won't affect contrast, but a gray screen can help you perceive better contrast. How? Simple: ambient/reflected light washes out colors, including gray. (One thing people often don't realize: neutral gray and white are precisely the same color. The only difference is brightness.) Your final picture can have an actual better contrast with gray as well. If you can switch to a higher output level with your projector and maintain optimum brightness with a gray screen, your contrast will be higher due to ambient/reflected light being a smaller percentage of total light.
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post #18 of 29 Old 10-13-2013, 10:03 PM
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Sure. But any gain that pumps up the whites is also going to pull up the blacks, right? Will one grey screen have special properties that enable it to have, simultaneously, visibly darker blacks AND brighter whites than another grey screen?

Also, OP said he would only have to deal with ambient light "maybe 10% of the time" and even then only "slight" ambient light.
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post #19 of 29 Old 10-13-2013, 10:25 PM
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true Kirnak. but what most people fail to understand is that projectors do NOT project black... therefore as long as there is ANY visible light (which means projected light of any source... then the following is true) the color of the screen will play an important role in not only the perceived black levels but also the visible (i'll call it 'actual') black levels. and as long as there is enough projected light to maintain white levels... then yes, both perceived and actual contrast can be achieved...through matter. and the greater the ambient/projected light is present... the more the screen color matters.
which is why you will never see a LCD/plasma/LED screen that is white.
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post #20 of 29 Old 10-14-2013, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Sure. But any gain that pumps up the whites is also going to pull up the blacks, right? Will one grey screen have special properties that enable it to have, simultaneously, visibly darker blacks AND brighter whites than another grey screen?

Also, OP said he would only have to deal with ambient light "maybe 10% of the time" and even then only "slight" ambient light.

Certainly so, because both the designed in properties and resulting performance can be vastly different from one example to another.

I know that you know full well that even a slight amount of ambient light can grossly affect contrast, preceived or otherwise. And all the more so if the surface is white, and can't do nothing to combat the effects of ambient light.

And yes, a screen which is both a darker shade of grey and maintains a gain in excess of 1.0, and manages that feat by using materials that enhance reflectivity can....and will maintain projected black levels (..to the degree they are provided...) while not proportionately dulling both whites and colors. This does not amount to being a active process, but rather a reactive process, and one that is well known and well documented by many instances.

Your posted comments amount to more of a rebuttal and dismissal of what is being provided then they are in any way comments: trying to provide information. if you were to jump over onto the Black Diamond or DNP threads and start espousing such comments, your effort swould not be taken with any more appreciation then they are here on this Do It Yourself forum.

Others before you have purposively intruded on to other threads with the expressed intent of dismissing and discounting the proven and posted results that many members themselves have testified and confirmed. As usually is the case,, you opt to make no mention or have any consideration for those posted results simply because it is not in your interest to do so. Until you yourself actually make any attempt to both produce and a review an effective example of what we are advocating, then your posts amount to being nothing more than intrusive and somewhat antagonistic in nature..... no matter how you word them.

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post #21 of 29 Old 10-14-2013, 01:55 AM
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........ and it would do well for all to remember that we are not talking about basic flat neutral grey painted screens, so the performance and properties of the latter have no direct bearing on what is and should be discussed. However the question does come to mind....what would your response be should the OP come back with an effusive and positive review, and state how he himself can perceive a noticeable difference in picture quality as well as ambient light performance? Is his opinion and stated observance of such to be wholly discounted? Will he be lumped into all the rest whose stated end results you seem determined to ignore?

I myself have stated time and time again how we let the end-user make the determination as to the effectiveness of the high-performance Do It Yourself screen paint applications. We are not selling this stuff, we are trying to bring a better level of enjoyment to those who have a real need for help... as well as a general uptick and performance and picture quality for those who only need a little assistance.

I really think that's pretty obvious to the vast majority on here.

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post #22 of 29 Old 10-14-2013, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post


Also, OP said he would only have to deal with ambient light "maybe 10% of the time" and even then only "slight" ambient light.

Reflected light can be as much of as a problem as mild ambient light unless the room is properly treated. That said, I myself have decided I prefer a white screen and a treated room. If I had 5000 lumens to play with, I'd then go with a gray screen and a treated room.
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true Kirnak. but what most people fail to understand is that projectors do NOT project black... therefore as long as there is ANY visible light (which means projected light of any source... then the following is true) the color of the screen will play an important role in not only the perceived black levels but also the visible (i'll call it 'actual') black levels. and as long as there is enough projected light to maintain white levels... then yes, both perceived and actual contrast can be achieved...through matter. and the greater the ambient/projected light is present... the more the screen color matters.
which is why you will never see a LCD/plasma/LED screen that is white.

Agreed on all counts except kind of one. Actual contrast. Depending on the room, perceived contrast can certainly be preserved over a lighter shade screen. Actual contrast can not be improved with any shade of gray alone. (Alone being the key word.) Let's simplify the math. Lets say we have a PJ that has a black level of one unit of light. It also has a max output of 10 units of white light. OK, we have a contrast ratio of 10:1. Now, add 2 units of ambient light. Our black level is 3 and our 100 ire is now 12. We have reduced our contrast to 4:1. We'll just assume a 1.0 gain screen. OK, let's go with a dark gray that only has 0.5 gain. 100 ire is now 6, black level is now 1.5. Still a 4:1 contrast ratio. So, what can be done to preserve more of our 10:1 contrast ratio? (It's quite impossible to exceed it.) That ties in with curttard's question.
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Sure. But any gain that pumps up the whites is also going to pull up the blacks, right? Will one grey screen have special properties that enable it to have, simultaneously, visibly darker blacks AND brighter whites than another grey screen?

It's theoretically possible, but I won't step into the argument over whether or not any specific paint has achieved it. How? Enhance the gain. Let's talk about the mechanics of how that would work in theory, then talk about the problems.

An ideal white screen with a gain of 1.0 would theoretically have a lambertian surface or reflection. Light hitting the screen would be reflected with equal intensity in all directions. An N8 gray screen with lambertian reflectance would also reflect light equally in all directions and would have a gain of about 0.8. Both would have the same measured contrast from the same PJ with the same settings, even with some ambient light present. The gray screen would have a better perceived contrast ratio in the presence of ambient light however, assuming the PJ had enough power to project a sufficiently bright picture. Why? because the ambient light level reflected off the screen to our eyes would be lowered, and as light levels get sufficiently low we perceive far less color in that light. That is precisely why colors look less washed out on a gray screen with ambient light present. Our eye will "see" improved contrast even though a sufficiently accurate probe will confirm no change in contrast from our white screen.

Dynamic range of the eye must also be considered. If you have a bright enough image you may be able to lower the luminance and not detect a difference. In that case a darker gray will appear to have darker blacks while maintaining whites. Everyone has different vision, so two people standing side by side may come to entirely different conclusions about the same test. The person with lower dynamic range in their vision may be absolutely convinced of an improvement in contrast, while the other subject with better dynamic range will just see both black levels and white levels decreasing. Both will give completely opposite opinions, both will be right, and both will think the other is lying!

Once we enhance the gain, we can save some of our actual contrast. How does this work? First off, what is enhanced gain? A passive screen can not amplify the light it reflects, but it can direct more of it towards the viewer. Let's imagine a perfect enhanced gain screen. It will reflect light only towards the viewer, and not off to the side. That way, more light is available for actual use. The perfect screen can't just reflect light like a mirror, it must reflect light in a wide enough cone that light is reflected towards the viewer from both sides of the screen. A perfect screen would reflect light evenly and equally throughout that cone. If the light is too strong in the center of the cone and too weak at the edges, we see a hotspot. A side benefit of this increased gain is the reduction of ambient light that originates to the side of the screen. Since light is reflected off the screen in a cone, the reflections from side generated light are directed away from the viewer. Since the viewer sees less reflected/ambient light, more of our original 10:1 contrast ratio is preserved. Both perceived and actual contrast is enhanced over our first two screens. The effect is additive so we see a much improved contrast. Ambient light from behind is not affected and our enhanced gain screen offers no benefit in that instance.

Of course, there is no such thing as a perfect screen. All of life involves trade offs, and so do screens. Some screens hotspot, some have grain or shimmer in the picture. Some are worse, some are better. The list goes on and has been debated endlessly; I have nothing to add to that debate. My white screen is wonderfully uniform, clear and sharp. I also have devoted and continue to devote a large amount of time and money to create a room with minimum reflected light and zero ambient light. I have traded time, money and space for a clearer picture. That's a trade off a lot of people can't accept. People with lower visual acuity will be bothered less by grain in the picture, as will people sitting further from the screen. They may not even notice the grain, therefore it's an intelligent trade off to ignore it in return for a benefit elsewhere.

It's all about making a decision about what's important to you. I highly recommend people paint a two square foot sample of what ever paint they are considering before painting an entire screen. Tape it up and watch different scenes from movies. Include dark scenes, colorful scenes and scenes with large white/light (Snow/clouds) expanses while panning. Walk back and forth to all viewing positions. look for both the weaknesses and strengths of the sample. every sample will have some weakness. Every decent sample will have some strengths. Project a uniform white field from a test disc. If your sample looks darker than the surrounding area, screen or other sample, then it has a lower gain at that angle. If it looks brighter, it has higher gain. If you notice a sharp drop off in brightness as you move, that's a hotspot. The sharper the drop off, the worse the hotspot. (There will ALWAYS be very gradual drop off as you move to the side unless you have a $10,000+ PJ. PJ lenses are not perfect.) It really doesn't matter what someone else accepts as a tradeoff, it only matters what is acceptable to you. Seriously, do not expect to find perfection in life, much less in a screen. That's why people keep experimenting and innovating everywhere and in every aspect of life and technology. There is always room for improvement.

Some type of louver technology could also be used to combat ambient light from the side. I have no idea of how feasible that would be for DIY and I applaud efforts to experiment along those lines.

Lastly, there has been talk of "selectively reflective" screens for quite some time. First off, it is categorically impossible to reflect only red, green and blue and not the secondary colors. (Cyan, magenta and yellow.) That's just plain physics and is as impossible as a perpetual motion machine. (Sony marketing notwithstanding.) That said, is it possible to reflect light only within the Rec. 709 standard and absorb light outside of that triangle? If possible, that would be an effective means of reducing ambient light. How effective? Is it possible? Hell, I have no idea on both counts. Also, I sincerely doubt anyone on this forum is actually qualified to debate the issue, myself included. What the hey though, it's a hobby and nothing wrong with experimenting. Experiments don't have to succeed to be a success. Most don't. Knowledge is more often expanded by failure than success. Success is great too though! If you come up with something that works for you, then that's all that counts. biggrin.gif

Just my humble opinion.
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post #23 of 29 Old 10-14-2013, 10:31 AM
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Others before you have purposively intruded on to other threads with the expressed intent of dismissing and discounting the proven and posted results that many members themselves have testified and confirmed.

A member asked a question and I provided an answer based on my own experience and understanding. Or are only opinions that support your solutions welcome here on this forum?

He said he has a Graywolf and wants a new screen that will provide both better blacks and better whites. I said I don't think he will find one. You claim yours will provide that.
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As usually is the case,, you opt to make no mention or have any consideration for those posted results simply because it is not in your interest to do so.

I have seen no posts here, ever, confirming that a particular magic solution provides significantly better blacks at the same time as the same or better whites as another. Certainly there are many posts from people delighted with their SilverFire screens, just as there are many from people delighted with their off-the-shelf paint screens, blackout cloth screens, spandex screens, and manufactured screens.
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However the question does come to mind....what would your response be should the OP come back with an effusive and positive review, and state how he himself can perceive a noticeable difference in picture quality as well as ambient light performance? Is his opinion and stated observance of such to be wholly discounted? Will he be lumped into all the rest whose stated end results you seem determined to ignore?

It depends on what he concludes. As always, someone saying "my new screen looks awesome!" doesn't tell me anything whatsoever about how it would actually compare to a much simpler, cheaper screen. As always, someone saying "I think my new screen has better blacks AND whites than what I vaguely remember of my previous screen which I haven't seen in several days, or maybe even with entirely different content", would be similarly unconvincing and uninformative.

I find your comments hilarious in light of your departure from the other thread where you contemptuously demanded all kinds of proof and comparisons from me, which I provided in spades, to backup MY claims. Once I showed how your solution compared to off-the-shelf white paint and blackout cloth, complete with descriptions of what I actually saw in real life (since digital pictures can NEVER tell the whole story), you were mysteriously silent after being quite vocal immediately prior.

But anyway...is every thread on which I offer my opinion going to result in this? Another argument of the same thing? More accusations that I am, for some odd reason, out to get you? I would be delighted to do a dedicated thread with you so those arguments don't have to come into these threads. But I will continue to post my opinion.
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post #24 of 29 Old 10-14-2013, 10:47 AM
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Until you yourself actually make any attempt to both produce and a review an effective example of what we are advocating, then your posts amount to being nothing more than intrusive and somewhat antagonistic in nature..... no matter how you word them.

I would be overjoyed to be able to see a sample of SilverFire side by side with my other screen solutions, as I already am doing with RS-MM-LL. I would be happy to pay you (or pb_maxxx or anyone) shipping costs to send me a sample of a decent size to make comparisons and would of course report my detailed findings here.
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post #25 of 29 Old 10-15-2013, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by curttard View Post

I would be overjoyed to be able to see a sample of SilverFire side by side with my other screen solutions, as I already am doing with RS-MM-LL. I would be happy to pay you (or pb_maxxx or anyone) shipping costs to send me a sample of a decent size to make comparisons and would of course report my detailed findings here.

Overjoyed, eh?

Well that might be arranged. Of course it can and would be only one version of the many different levels obtainable using SF, so it would be one of the darker renditions...if only to go further in proving a point of order.

And I've heard others use the "out to get you" ditty to try to punctuate their points....and it didn't wash any better with their use.

As for your pictures, if someone using a DSLR could not tweak their camera to give good results, they would have wasted their money. On the other hand, when a screen does NOT produce too much directional gain, and preserves contrast, it becomes easier for a basic Digital Camera to take decent shots that still accurately reproduce what the eye sees. Toying with exposure, or using Exposure bracketing can of course result in "Cherry Picking" shots to exhibit, and of course post production editing is used too often by those who want to fool people.IE: Screen Mfgs (...and I'm NOT saying you did any, BTW...so don't take any offense...) We do not nor have ever advocated such methods, because honesty in posting must be a given trait if one is to express the "This is exactly what I see" type of comment.

My own methods are kept simple to allow for no such discourse or recriminatory accusations, and to allow the majority who do not posses DSLRs or the knowledge on how to use them, simply to overcome the inherent failings of such equipment to take decent photo renditions on their most basic settings.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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post #26 of 29 Old 10-15-2013, 09:30 AM
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I don't have a DSLR, I don't do any post-processing unless I am doing so for a particular purpose -- and then I make it clear that I am doing so and why -- and my choice of exposure is based on getting the most representative image and/or getting an image that is most effective at illustrating the differences in whichever quality I am trying to compare. It sounds like you are implying that my pictures comparing RS-MM-LL and various other white solutions are somehow misleading?

With any samples that anyone is gracious enough to provide me, I will of course do the same detailed comparisons as I've done for white screens, with detailed descriptions of what I'm seeing, as well as multiple comparison photographs.
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post #27 of 29 Old 10-15-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by curttard View Post

It sounds like you are implying that my pictures comparing RS-MM-LL and various other white solutions are somehow misleading?
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Please.

What part of " (...and I'm NOT saying you did any, BTW...so don't take any offense...)" isn't clear?
However altering exposure manually does amount to more adjustment than is usually done...or deemed acceptable....leastwise when taking DIY Screen Forum Screen Shots that are supposed to be "As things are". In the scheme of things, if a scene is well balanced, with light coming in being essentially manageable, messing around with exposure setting amounts to altering the physical effects the incoming light has on the Camera's sensor.

Using Zoom to only attenuate excessive light is much less intrusive than is altering the Len's aperture and / or manually changing exposure times.

Anyway, as far as misleading goes, is that not what you stated directly that virtually all Screen shots amount to being....to some degree or another?

In any case, Cory seems to be headed toward using a SF solution, so this conversation is both moot and not needed.

But PM me and we'll try to make some arrangements .

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post #28 of 29 Old 10-16-2013, 02:26 AM
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However altering exposure manually does amount to more adjustment than is usually done...or deemed acceptable....leastwise when taking DIY Screen Forum Screen Shots that are supposed to be "As things are".

There's nothing necessarily "as things are" about Auto exposures. As indicated by the fact that Auto shots of a top-end plasma TV and a low-budget projector shooting onto blackout cloth could and probably would show the same pitch black blacks and blinding whites.
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messing around with exposure setting amounts to altering the physical effects the incoming light has on the Camera's sensor.

Adjustments to aperture, exposure time, and possibly ISO are taking place in photos taken in Auto as well -- you just don't have any control over them and thus can't repeat them to USEFULLY compare two images.
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Using Zoom to only attenuate excessive light is much less intrusive than is altering the Len's aperture and / or manually changing exposure times.

No, it has the exact same effect -- lessening the amount of light getting into the camera. Less light is less light, whether it's accomplished by zooming, by closing down the aperture, or by shooting a shorter exposure time (well okay, they will have different effects in terms of motion, depth of field, etc, but these are irrelevant for screenshots of paused images on a screen).

The difference between attenuating light by shooting in Auto with zoom, versus shooting in Manual and changing exposure time or aperture or ISO, is that the latter is easily repeatabale with other screenshots of other materials/paints/projectors so as to far more usefully compare a given quality, by ensuring equal camera settings and thus removing those variables.
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post #29 of 29 Old 11-05-2013, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I apologize but I've had to put this project temporarily on hold because of a family tragedy. But we are doing okay...

I look forward to getting back to this project soon though and will keep in touch.

Thanks!
Cory
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