Silver Fire FX (Fusion eXtreme) - Black Screen & Light Fusion refined. - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-22-2015, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool

...the pb_maxxx lives. ...although these days, it's behind the scenes...dealing with life...just being blessed to make it to each day.


...so what about FX you ask?


well believe it or not...I put together a couple of FX samples this past week...both front and rear projection. I then compared them colorwise to my SF XT 6/7 screen samples and I was quite surprised how much darker they are... somewhere around what a SF 12 screen would be.


so next comes a diamond cutting session. I have a bestbuy magnolia nearby that I brought a sample in to test against a SI black diamond. colorwise (unprojected) it is quite a bit darker than the SI.


and how did it fair against the SI when projected on....



...soon. oh very soon.
...but for now, i'm content to let the others have their day in the sun.
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Old 07-22-2015, 09:45 PM
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Dark things are brewing.


.................................................. ...............and above, the Stars were winking out.

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Old 07-23-2015, 06:51 AM
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all really exciting stuff.

I still wonder though, what's with all the secrecy. is this still gonna be a diy project? no offence I only ask cause I don't think it would hurt to actually show how things are going like "all the other people you are allowing have their time in the sun" especially if you are already testing.

I'm not asking that we be told how to make it or apply it since that is still in testing, but I see nothing wrong with actually showing pics of how it looks like even if they are just samples if you have them instead of these hype building announcements of announcements. I don't know if you understand what I'm talking about. This thread is almost 2 years old, I've had my eyes on this and followed this thread since it was first started. I think we are waaaaay past all this teasing And carrot dangling.

If this is no longer a DIY project, then by all means ignore everything I'm saying. but if that is the case, say so and lets all move on.
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Old 07-23-2015, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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no teasing at all. life, divorce, fire, finances... among others... ...can easily put a pet project on permanent hold.


...so the project learning to crawl again.
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Old 07-23-2015, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post
no teasing at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post
I put together a couple of FX samples this past week...both front and rear projection. I then compared them colorwise to my SF XT 6/7 screen samples and I was quite surprised how much darker they are... somewhere around what a SF 12 screen would be.

I have a bestbuy magnolia nearby that I brought a sample in to test against a SI black diamond. colorwise (unprojected) it is quite a bit darker than the SI.
and how did it fair against the SI when projected on....

...soon. oh very soon.
About what shade is SF-12, can you bring a small sample into a hardware store and hold it up to the color-cards until you find one or two that look pretty close in shade (not gain, obviously)?

Did you snap any pictures during the SF-XT SF-FX comparison? How about the BestBuy comparison?

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Old 07-23-2015, 08:34 AM
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Where do you feel SF-FX stands with this statement?
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Only the Silver Fire v2.5 8.0+ [COLOR=Red][COLOR=Black]versions approach the darkness of the Aurora & Abyss, but the known caveats of that higher range makes it only suited for extremely large commercial screens used in very high ambient light. Honestly? If it comes up I'll probably Tile a few Abyss panels together instead. Ouch.

-Visual Artifacts?-
Nothing. Nada. Zilch. And I stand firmly behind that. That equates to why I'm even bothering to espouse it's virtues. If it had such, I'd not even be here.
I'm assuming the idea behind FX is not only to go darker ("around what a SF-12 would be"), just like Aurora/Abyss, but also cleaner looking and with an equal or wider viewing-cone..also similar to Aurora/Abyss?

Are these two projects somewhat linked?

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Old 07-23-2015, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Where do you feel SF-FX stands with this statement?


I'm assuming the idea behind FX is not only to go darker ("around what a SF-12 would be"), just like Aurora/Abyss, but also cleaner looking and with an equal or wider viewing-cone..also similar to Aurora/Abyss?

Are these two projects somewhat linked?
Nebulously only. Each of the applications strive to accomplish the same purpose, but go about it in completely different manners. One is "painted"...the other, absolutely no paints or applied liquid coatings whatsoever. (...so far...) One is the epitome of DIY, the other blurs the lines, or highlights them completely

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Old 07-23-2015, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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The SF 6.0 XT screen sample is one that I possess and can't be made from the current SF v2.5 ingredients.
I has an Xtreme amount of gain and has a very fine finish. I do not expect that the average person using a hvlp sparingly could accomplish it.


Silver Fire FX on the other hand is much more forgiving. Oh and more cost effective as it virtually eliminates the base mix... or least quart containers of it...
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Old 07-23-2015, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Nebulously only. Each of the applications strive to accomplish the same purpose, but go about it in completely different manners. One is "painted"...the other, absolutely no paints or applied liquid coatings whatsoever. (...so far...) One is the epitome of DIY, the other blurs the lines, or highlights them completely
Good news (alternatives, especially fully DIY are always good news), and I really appreciate the thorough+precise phrasing.
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The SF 6.0 XT screen sample is one that I possess and can't be made from the current SF v2.5 ingredients.
I has an Xtreme amount of gain and has a very fine finish. I do not expect that the average person using a hvlp sparingly could accomplish it.

Silver Fire FX on the other hand is much more forgiving. Oh and more cost effective as it virtually eliminates the base mix... or least quart containers of it...
Also good news. Any theories why FX can achieve similar gain and shade without bothersome artifacts even given an imperfect spray-job..while XT (and SF12) cannot?

Can you explain how you made the samples?

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Old 07-24-2015, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Any theories why FX can achieve similar gain and shade without bothersome artifacts even given an imperfect spray-job..while XT (and SF12) cannot?

...a bit of confusion in the question above, as the SF FX screen (unprojected) has about the same shade of darkness as what a SF 12.0 would have. However, it can not / does not achieve the same amount of gain. This due to it not being heavy laiden in metallics like standard SF. Instead it must rely on it's very translucent RGB properties, light fusion, and also defusion to achieve it's goal.


Because of today's higher lumen projectors... the need for uber high gain screens is waning considerably... hence FX comes into play... as it does not rely heavily on metallics for high gain. And because of this, painting a SF FX screen is much more forgiving.


And by removing the heavy laiden in metallics nature of the mix... you also remove the likelihood of artifacts.


what you get is a very flat screen, slight gain, devoid of any shimmer, and/or artifacts.
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:04 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I knew that.

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Old 07-24-2015, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post
...a bit of confusion in the question above, as the SF FX screen (unprojected) has about the same shade of darkness as what a SF 12.0 would have. However, it can not / does not achieve the same amount of gain. This due to it not being heavy laiden in metallics like standard SF. Instead it must rely on it's very translucent RGB properties, light fusion, and also defusion to achieve it's goal.


Because of today's higher lumen projectors... the need for uber high gain screens is waning considerably... hence FX comes into play... as it does not rely heavily on metallics for high gain. And because of this, painting a SF FX screen is much more forgiving.


And by removing the heavy laiden in metallics nature of the mix... you also remove the likelihood of artifacts.


what you get is a very flat screen, slight gain, devoid of any shimmer, and/or artifacts.
I'm loving how this sounds. Especially building a screen that takes into consideration the fact that these days most projectors output well over 1500 actual lumens.

So we are looking at something that could be as dark as SF ver2.5 12? Any pics of the darkest SF v2.5 screen out there or even better where does it fall on the N scale so we have an idea of what kinda darkness we are talking about. I wonder though, practically every DIY screen uses metallics in some way or the other to improve gain, how do you plan on getting at respectable gain (anywhere between 0.75 - 1) without using metallics?

Sorry about life being life, its been having a go at me too just until recently.
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Old 07-24-2015, 02:27 PM
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I'm loving how this sounds. Especially building a screen that takes into consideration the fact that these days most projectors output well over 1500 actual lumens.

So we are looking at something that could be as dark as SF ver2.5 12? Any pics of the darkest SF v2.5 screen out there or even better where does it fall on the N scale so we have an idea of what kinda darkness we are talking about. I wonder though, practically every DIY screen uses metallics in some way or the other to improve gain, how do you plan on getting at respectable gain (anywhere between 0.75 - 1) without using metallics?
Read through the Thread again.......no where is it mentioned that the Gain is .75 - 1
In fact PB's last post clearly stated that FX does not / cannot achieve the gain levels of Silver Fire or the XT....this because the Silver Metallic lies under the very dark surface coating. Basically, it's a re-design and re-badge of Silver Metallic MississippiMud only the top coat is extremely dark and more translucent.
That is all made possible by virtue of the wealth of 2000+ lumen PJs now available...and particularly the 3000+'ers

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Old 07-24-2015, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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The BD 1.4 is such a one trick pony that it's hard to compare with. Let's describe it as hotspot tunnel vision. On axis it's very bright...to the point of noticeable hotspotting and rainbows. Interestingly what it lacks is black levels, overall contrast, and detail. What it gains on axis is overshadowed by what it loses in every other aspect. Pretty on the surface...til you take a second look.

Here's a couple shots to sink your teeth into...
(BD 1.4 background screen and SF FX sample)
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Old 07-24-2015, 03:47 PM
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No images. Be sure you both Upload and then paste the location into the Image icon field.

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Old 07-24-2015, 04:17 PM
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I think Lorddeff07 didn't mean the FX claimed to hit 0.7-1.0gain, but was wondering IF it did.

Because it's been mentioned many times that SF loses gain at more extreme dark versions (dropping gradually from 1.3 to 1.1 from 1oz-4oz, on down to 1.0gain and below using 5oz-8oz colorant IF there's no special tweaks to metallic amounts)..so it seems likely to follow that SF-12 could land closer to 0.8gain while FX should be somewhere below 0.7-0.8gain to be considered lower gain than SF-12.

From what's been shown and said so far it looks like FX could be as dark as N4.3 (very dark), though too much diffusion could force it to light up too easily in the presence of ambient light similarly to the BlackDiamond in a less than ideal situation..but that appears to not be a problem from what PBmaxx has said after testing.


Would it be fair to say that gain is a pretty solid difference between FX and the upcoming Aurora/Abyss materials?

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Last edited by Ftoast; 07-24-2015 at 04:28 PM. Reason: realized two of my questions were answered
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Old 07-24-2015, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Try this again later....

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Old 07-24-2015, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I think Lorddeff07 didn't mean the FX claimed to hit 0.7-1.0gain, but was wondering IF it did.

Because it's been mentioned many times that SF loses gain at more extreme dark versions (dropping gradually from 1.3 to 1.1 from 1oz-4oz, on down to 1.0gain and below using 5oz-8oz colorant IF there's no special tweaks to metallic amounts)..so it seems likely to follow that SF-12 could land closer to 0.8gain while FX should be somewhere below 0.7-0.8gain to be considered lower gain than SF-12.

From what's been shown and said so far it looks like FX could be as dark as N4.3 (very dark), though too much diffusion could force it to light up too easily in the presence of ambient light similarly to the BlackDiamond in a less than ideal situation..but that appears to not be a problem from what PBmaxx has said after testing.


Would it be fair to say that gain is a pretty solid difference between FX and the upcoming Aurora/Abyss materials?
EXACTLY!!!!

I've been following all manner of screen threads for a while especially silverfire. came very close a number of times to build one but I have always known that what I want just didn't seem to be out there. Until I saw your thread on your ambient light rejection screen. (good stuff by the way)

I want a screen that can be very dark. Primarily because I hate the idea of spending all my time in a cave. I will use said screen, and there will be light around me. I read in the SF thread about loss of gain as you go darker. So I was wondering where this screen stands. I was the guy in the official SF thread that wanted to know if it was possible to go as dark as a 10,12 or even 15!!!! And what's this Aurora and abyss I keep seeing????

Honestly, I don't even like it when people compare screens to a black diamond. To me, there is nothing "black" so to me edging out a BD in "black" appearance isn't anything to be proud of.

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Old 07-24-2015, 05:25 PM
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Honestly, I don't even like it when people compare screens to a black diamond. To me, there is nothing "black" so to me edging out a BD in "black" appearance isn't anything to be proud of.
The Aurora/Abyss material should be an upcoming product in a couple months which is planned to be available as a bare screen that you apply onto a DIY frame (and also possibly available in the nonDIY section as a full screen set). You can read about it here:
DIY black screen tests

This SF-FX should be similarly dark, and both should be notably darker than the BlackDiamond (hoping those pictures get reloaded), but it sounds like this FX might be roughly half the on-axis gain of the Abyss.
The gain shouldn't be much of a problem if I'm remembering your setup..it might even be an advantage considering uniformity if you're still planning to use the short-throw.

What projector and screen-size were you planning?
PBmaxx might already know if FX is a good or bad fit for your setup, and I'd expect FX to be available quite a while before Abyss gets released in the wild.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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Old 07-24-2015, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
The Aurora/Abyss material should be an upcoming product in a couple months which is planned to be available as a bare screen that you apply onto a DIY frame (and also possibly available in the nonDIY section as a full screen set). You can read about it here:
DIY black screen tests

This SF-FX should be similarly dark, and both should be notably darker than the BlackDiamond (hoping those pictures get reloaded), but it sounds like this FX might be roughly half the on-axis gain of the Abyss.
The gain shouldn't be much of a problem if I'm remembering your setup..it might even be an advantage considering uniformity if you're still planning to use the short-throw.

What projector and screen-size were you planning?
PBmaxx might already know if FX is a good or bad fit for your setup, and I'd expect FX to be available quite a while before Abyss gets released in the wild.
Oh thanks for the info. Right now I'm using a benq1080 long through projector. I still plan on getting an short throw projector so as it stands I can go either way. As for screen size I'm gonna fall anywhere between 100" to 120" with the screen material being its only limitation. All I need now is the perfect screen. I'm currently using a 110" grey electric screen from Favi
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Old 07-25-2015, 06:02 AM
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Oh thanks for the info. Right now I'm using a benq1080 long through projector. I still plan on getting an short throw projector so as it stands I can go either way. As for screen size I'm gonna fall anywhere between 100" to 120" with the screen material being its only limitation. All I need now is the perfect screen. I'm currently using a 110" grey electric screen from Favi
Are you still wanting to have a Retractable...or is a "Fixed Screen" on the table?

Whatever choice, you'll want to be certain that the screen's surface is ideally suited for a Short Throw. Luckily, either of the Silver Fire variations will do splendidly. ( v2.5 or FX ).

Still, it needs to be stressed that the primary difference between the two above applications is the need to have a pure Silver Metallic undercoat with a FX screen. Now that's not anything that is not relatively easily done, and the translucent, ultra dark top coat serves to effectively make getting a even looking sprayed surface all the more easier....or at least as easy as such can be.

Also, bear in mind that the FX Coating would not look as black going up onto a white substrate and it does over Silver metallic. Just as applying a white paint over a dark wall surface will make the white paint's brightness shift downward, the black enhancement qualities inherent in Silver Metallic have a greater effect than does the reflective qualities of the Mica. Yes....the Mica helps keep the degree of gain higher than it would be if a simple Grey undercoating was used, but between the Silver Metallic's natural hue, and the very dark translucent FX top coating, they both combine to create a ultra dark surface...one that still has depth and retains the ability to collect and disperse light throughout, and reflect light across a broader viewing angle.

I suppose I have been remiss for not stepping in and knocking out an full sized example while PB has been preoccupied. Goodness knows I could have....it's not like I didn't have "any" opportunity. But like PB, other things have preoccupied my time (...convalescing among others). And all my own installations have involved dedicated Theaters so such a dark screen wasn't remotely required.

But who knows what might happen with the goad this thread presents, and/or I can stand ready to help anyone else who wants to be among the first (...or indeed "THE" first ) to do one up.
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Old 07-25-2015, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
The Aurora/Abyss material should be an upcoming product in a couple months which is planned to be available as a bare screen that you apply onto a DIY frame (and also possibly available in the nonDIY section as a full screen set). You can read about it here:
DIY black screen tests

PBmaxx might already know if FX is a good or bad fit for your setup, and I'd expect FX to be available quite a while before Abyss gets released in the wild.
Oh....I don't know about all that.....in fact I think if you listen closely enough, you can already hear something rustlin' around in the bushes.

Lorddeff07,
The decision / determination to go down the road this application points to is wholly determined by two important things. Screen size and a Projector's Lumen output. A smaller screen can use a less "Atomic Powered" projector. A bigger Screen will definitely require the added power. Really, that's all there is too it......and BTW, this application is indeed 100% ALL DIY.

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Old 07-25-2015, 06:55 AM
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Has there already been experimenting between;
light-silver metallic base with appropriate levels of colorant+clear overtop
VS
Dark-silver metallic base with appropriate levels of clear+less colorant overtop?

I'd guess most of the end result would be similar, but I'd expect the darker metallic and clear with less darkening might give more of a "glowing" look...maybe.

It might be interesting to try a base of Rustoleum metallics pewter or one of the darker FolkArt metallics like gun-metal or sequin and a diffuser coating with little or no colorant.

Has poly shown itself to be superior instead of untinted deep-base for the topcoat?

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Are you still wanting to have a Retractable...or is a "Fixed Screen" on the table?

Still, it needs to be stressed that the primary difference between the two above applications is the need to have a pure Silver Metallic undercoat with a FX screen. Now that's not anything that is not relatively easily done, and the translucent, ultra dark top coat serves to effectively make getting a even looking sprayed surface all the more easier....or at least as easy as such can be.

I suppose I have been remiss for not stepping in and knocking out an full sized example while PB has been preoccupied. Goodness knows I could have....it's not like I didn't have "any" opportunity. But like PB, other things have preoccupied my time (...convalescing among others). And all my own installations have involved dedicated Theaters so such a dark screen wasn't remotely required.

But who knows what might happen with the goad this thread presents, and/or I can stand ready to help anyone else who wants to be among the first (...or indeed "THE" first ) to do one up.
Thanks a million for the info. especially the part about the FX supporting an ST projector. I currently have a long throw but ideally I would prefer an ST because my projector is basically my living room TV. With the ST I wouldn't have to worry about people walking in front of the beam.


I am just really happy this screen is coming along nicely. As for the electric screen.... as it stands I currently have an electric.... I was leaning towards a fixed screen with sintra simply outta fear of the possible complexities of painting an electric screen. Anything you can say on that? wouldn't raising and dropping the screen damage the paint work?
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Old 07-25-2015, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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...a couple of off axis shots...to show how narrow a BD's viewing cone is...


...and some preliminaries.
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Last edited by pb_maxxx; 07-25-2015 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 07-25-2015, 12:11 PM
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pb... can you show a pic of the sample with nothing on it. Want to get an idea of its color
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Old 08-10-2015, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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This past week I spent some time in Branson doing some screens for a live theater/music venue...including projection mapping and holographic...using front and rear projection technologies...at sizes that make our 120" screens seem like peanuts.

...which gave me the chance to see and compare several front and rear screens...some of which I can't disclose.

It was quite an eye opener... to preview the screens in person, compare them, and listen to the science behind them.

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