DIY Laminate Screen with Aluminum Frame, TOTAL NOOB - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 35 Old 12-11-2013, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is my DIY Laminate Screen Build, i am total noob. If i can do it, you can do it! Here is my step by step

Ordered Wilson art Designer White Laminate 5x10 feet sheet, had it cut for $12 to 61x107 inches. (although they say 5 feet, its actually 61 inch)

Ordered 80/20 aluminum frame to the above specs.

Frame just arrived today. Here are pics.






All i can say is wow! 80/20 frame was very easy to put together. Took about 20 minutes tops. would highly recommend. Last pic just was me checking to see and crossing my fingers that I had measured and had everything cut correctly and it all matched up perfectly!

Attached Velcro to outer frame today. Industrial Strength only comes in 2inchx 15ft which was a bit annoying to cut down to 1 inch strips. At first i getting really picky about making it perfectly 1 inch, but realized that a little imperfection likely isn't going to matter. Had enough to go around the frame, but will need to go back to get another roll to velcro the inner supports unless you all think I don't need to. Picture below:



attached velcro to back of laminate. I did end up velcroing the center supports as well although this is not shown in picture. It was bowing a lot without it and feel like this has tamed it down a bit.



Miter cut base moulding, wrapped in velvet using MM instructions on his thread, feel like it turned out pretty nice! we then put the trim together with L brackets, and then put it under the laminate/frame.




Finally, I bought these little corner bracket connectors and am placing them all around the frame to help adjoin the trim to the frame. The only issue that I have had is because the molding is only 9/16 inch deep, the only screws I could find small enough are 3/8 inch screws, but there is not a lot to "bite" into, so some of the screws keep popping out. I think I may be able to fix this by placing many more around the frame to help relieve some of the tension on each of the brackets.






Finally, what the finished product looks like (still have to add extra screws and add french cleat to the back for hanging)
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post #2 of 35 Old 12-11-2013, 07:54 AM
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What size screen are you planning.....what PJ did you purchase....how will it be mounted....at what distance...and what type room / lighting / viewing conditions are you expecting to prevail?

There are many more things to consider other than "to paint or not to paint" and choosing WA-DW brings several important ones into the equation.

And FYI, to build a Aluminum Frame, and interface the WA-DW to it is every bit as much a challenge, rather much more so than constructing a simple wood frame and stretching a less expensive cloth like Flexi-White across it.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #3 of 35 Old 12-11-2013, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I am planning 110 to 120 inch screen. PJ is AE-8000 panny. Will be mounted to ceiling. I am thinking about 15 feet throw distance but can adjust to whatever you all recommend. Room is 15x20 feet. It is a room with no windows, door is from the back, 2 can lights in front and 2 in back. I don't think ambient light should be too much of an issue, can turn off front lights and leave back on for watching sports, turn off all lights for movies etc.
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post #4 of 35 Old 12-11-2013, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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difficulty is likely relative. While I was interested in a sintra screen with paint, I am not confident at all in my ability to spray paint, mix (and this seems to have some variation given user error) etc. From what I have read about the aluminum frame builds, most individuals state that they were able to put their screen together in a few hours, industrial velcro seems like a very easy solution to me (although until I have done it it would be hard to comment) and then attaching to wood trim wrapped in velvet. You are the painted screen master, so for you I am sure that a painted substrate solution is childs play, for me not so much. I know that you are more than happy to help should I opt for that option, but with the hours of research on this forum, I think a Laminate Screen option seems to be an easier solution than to mess with a staple gun etc (also seems to be the option that would require the least amount of tools since I have none). I don't want my thread to get off topic about painted vs laminate. Rather, would like guidance on how to create my laminate screen with aluminum frame.
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post #5 of 35 Old 12-11-2013, 09:49 AM
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Well, if your planning to put a frame around your screen, your going to have to pull out a Staple gun anyway...and also interface any Framing material with a metal frame..and Velco is neither all that easy to use (...you gotta get it positioned right the first time or what you used is a "wash"...) and certainly not inexpensive when used in the sizes and quantities needed.

And...any situation where you can justify using a White surface like WA-DW would also mean you could use a less expensive substrate and "ROLL" on a good White or light Neutral Gray paint like Sherwin Williams or Valspar.

Lastly, if the ability to make a laminate screen using Aluminum Framing is as "easy" as it would be if you do actually have all the tools, and could make your determinations based on what you can read and duplicate, I'd be the first to agree with you.

But so far according to what you have posted that does not seem to be the case.

Lets consider a comparison.

WA-DW must be acquired, and cut to size...by "you"...carefully. Sintra or Komatex is pretty much "almost" unbreakable, and virtually all sources you would obtain such from will cut it for you to your specified size.

You can buy a pre-cut Aluminum Frame (80/20) along with the Velcro, but a more careful read will show that more than a few people have had center bowing issues.

WA-DW is well known to Hot Spot with PJs that have less lumen output than the Panny 8K. It is "NOT" a Flat sheen'ed surface...it has a slight degree of sheen to it. You can roll on a true Flat "Ceiling White* " paint onto the Sintra (...rollers don't cost all that much or are hard to master using if your using a good, self-leveling Flat Paint...)
* Ceiling White is a Flat White Paint with a very slight amount of Gray shading

Whatever you decide on, you'll have to hang it onto the wall. Doing that is / will always be easier with a Wood Frame...unless you purchase specific hardware, and can interface it with the Frame and wall...which also takes tools.


Basically, unless you purchase a Mfg Screen that can "Snap" together, some tools will be required.

If you have a small Cordless Drill...a 12" Level....and drill bits at all...a Phillips head Screwdriver or "Tips" for the aforementioned Drill, you can accomplish either solution.

I make my suggestions not on what I feel I can accomplish within my level of experience and expertise, but by virtue of having helped many other such as yourself....people with no experience and even less confidence, create DIY Screens that far surpassed their expectations. I can judge by what someone posts how far / deep into a build they can go...but if someone simply discounts the ability to even try....well that can be a roadblock to progress...admittedly.

You certainly should proceed ahead with the WA-DW project if your determined to do so....certainly as revelations and realizations that are obvious to others become obvious to you, you'll make the decisions necessary. Just please be aware that my comments are intended to try to make you aware of such things on the front end...not when they become issues.

Retrospective analysis of "what went wrong" or "what might have been" can be excruciatingly painful, and no one wants a NOOB to Front Projection and DIY Screen Making to go through the dreaded, "I guess I should have...."

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #6 of 35 Old 12-11-2013, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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to be honest, i was not opposed to sintra and trying to create a SF mix. Perhaps lightening may strike me for this, but as I started digging deeper and reading reviews, I came upon "a different forum" that has review upon review stating they were not too fond of the SF mix (granted they are touting their own mix which some on this forum discount). So I am not sure anymore on what is truth or not, and I am not sure that anyone who lives close to me has created a Sintra Screen for me to judge for myself rather than photographs. So that is why I decided to go the laminate route and from what I have read, the vast majority seemed to be pleased with what they made.
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post #7 of 35 Old 12-11-2013, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by naperthrill View Post

to be honest, i was not opposed to sintra and trying to create a SF mix. Perhaps lightening may strike me for this, but as I started digging deeper and reading reviews, I came upon "a different forum" that has review upon review stating they were not too fond of the SF mix (granted they are touting their own mix which some on this forum discount).

ZAP! Zssssssssstttttt..... Do you have your Rubber Boots and Insulated Gloves on? get out of that water puddle !

Well...that was / has always pretty much been their intent....to flood the search engines with mention of Silver Fire in the hope of getting hits to threads that exist only to discount it. And of course lure in New members with claims that their methods and applications are the only "correct" way to achieve a good DIY screen. You could call it aggressive marketing...but in actuality it's all just self serving propaganda.

For the record, no one on AVS discounts the applications they promote on HTS...we just put them in proper perspective. The original Black Widow was nothing but a Beige Base paint color corrected by the addition of a Aluminum ingredient...something that used alone would push horribly blue and provide a drastically grainy image. The fallacy behind it was that there was a very low tolerance of how much Aluminum could be used, and even then, graininess, roller mark issues, and a decided lack of gain was the result. It was pretty obvious that the direction they took was in a great part because they couldn't go down the same path SF had already trod without being obvious in their parroting.(..they did try at first...and gave up...before they relocated...) All the same, the creation of a neutral gray form a beige paint and aluminum additive was a significant accomplishment in itself. But in the end it was / is just a Gray paint so it simply was a under-achiever. Sub 1.0 gain. Speck'ly. It's only real claim to fame was it was simple...and that became it's strongest "selling" point. I has never been able to compete with Silver Fire, performance-wise. Any claims of superiority because of "pure neutrality" were easily combated by effective calibration of SF applications...something that was always conveniently passed over as a "solution".

Meanwhile, we corrected our SF mix's neutrality by adding Gold...and later additional Yellow. We use far more reflective agents, yet never have had any more...if even as much graininess as BW. The claimed Hot Spotting never has manifested itself to the extent they wanted people to believe it did. I personally have shown that for all intents and purposes, SF has no discernible Viewing cone issues, yet that is touted elsewhere as a great lie. If it was / is a lie....a great many live that lie ....and like it. wink.gif

Nope...we have create a application that balances out many different aspects of reflecting a digital image. Our "Gray" is the product of light striking individual RGBY elements that are mixed and suspended in a water / Polyurethane base (..Polyurethane being a claimed "wrong component as well...) and reflectivity is enhanced by the use of both Silver and Pearl coated Mica components. Claims that those last elements cause color shifts and adverse prism-like refractions are just plain wrong . Sadly, if not countered by objective reasoning....it works for them often enough. Your own experience shows that "truth", and that is the real shame because sometimes, people get misled...influenced by claims and statements supposedly supported by "science" when in fact they are simply overwrought examples based more on personal feelings. Granted, not all...some of it has basis in fact...but still mostly overblown to represent issues that in fact have little bearing on actual use.

All of that is why I ceased posting my own repeated exclamations about Silver Fire....for the most part. I have let Members who have done their own Screens do all the proselytizing, because their objectivity should not be called into question. But for some it still is....and should someone from AVS who has and believes in their SF Screen go "over there" and dare to dispute anything they Administrator / Moderators post....they don't last very long. They like to say our Forum is unfair and restrictive of opinions. rolleyes.gif Yeah...AVS restricts nastiness and abusive posts...insults and aggressive trolling. AVS does NOT restrict effective and meaningful discussions and / or disagreements that are undertaken in a courteous and polite manner.

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So I am not sure anymore on what is truth or not, and I am not sure that anyone who lives close to me has created a Sintra Screen for me to judge for myself rather than photographs. So that is why I decided to go the laminate route and from what I have read, the vast majority seemed to be pleased with what they made.

I've given you the truth, as known to the majority, not a very, very small biased minority. You can find more "truth" here.....:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1360471/silver-fire-end-user-roll-call-please-give-your-testomonials-and-opinions

......and in the Silver Fire Thread Thread as well as in many personal Threads by past & current SF end users. What you won't find is hardly anyone that agrees with the opinions found elsewhere. I don't guide or restrict anyone's opinions, so truth is what you decide as being warranted as truth, based on what you read from sources with no axe to grind or grudge to bear. Everyone else with SF Screens already knows how well their screens perform for certain.

You might make note that I hadn't even mentioned Silver Fire once until it came up in your post above. I only address what I feel are real concerns and considerations as far as the use of any WA-DW application, and the building thereof. WA-DW can and does work great under many circumstances...not so very much under many others.

No matter what you decide, your welcome to express your opinion here.....just as I hope you'll realize that advice given to you is done with your best interests in mind...not for any ulterior motive or personal objective.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #8 of 35 Old 12-13-2013, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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can anyone else please chime in? appreciate it.
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post #9 of 35 Old 12-14-2013, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by naperthrill View Post

can anyone else please chime in? appreciate it.

Naper, you'd do well to remember the old adage..."There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth."

In addition to reading at the 'Shack, you might find this bit of history interesting. If you filter out the emotional content (understandable, if someone has questioned your integrity as suggested), my own 10+ years here and there lead me to believe Mech's side is probably closer to the truth. As you can see, in railing against the "different forum", MM fails to mention that he has a business painting screens for a living. The smart money says SF and Black Flame are the same "formula", yet MM invokes the rules sticky and threatens to go to the mods anytime someone wants to discuss building a frame for commercial screen material that can be purchased directly from AVS.

As for your DIY choices. I'm an objective, numbers based kind of guy...comes with the engineering territory. The DIY Screen Section here at AVS used to be full of people attempting to quantify the difference between commercial and DIY solutions. Somewhere along the way it became MM's bully pulpit and folks left for friendlier pastures or simply quit paying attention since they were satisfied with their chosen solution. I only check in from time to time in hopes that things have gotten better...

The other key reason for declining activity here, IMO, is 10 years ago, a DIY screens made fiscal sense at most any size. With the arrival of Elite, VApex, and a few others, I'd say the cost/benefit ratio just isn't there unless you're going for more than 100" diagonal. Especially after you factor in time. And I'm a die hard DIYer for everything from car maintenance to home improvement.

I've done Gatorfoam, flat white commercial-flavor-of-the-day paint on Gatorfoam, BOC, and finally DW. In a light controlled environment, the numbers suggest it just can't get much, if any better than the DW...nearly perfect white with a little gain for good measure. And it's no more difficult to work with than other solutions suggested here, maybe even less IMO, especially if you go with 80/20 QuickFrame instead of wood. Despite statements to the contrary, if you check ProjectorReviews, you'll find the light cannons so often mentioned here as not needing positive gain, actually come in around 600+/- lumens once calibrated for accuracy. The recent Sony 55ES' 900+ after calibration being the segment leader by far. ProjectorCentral's calculator uses spec'd lumens to calculate ft-L, so it's probably not your best guide. If you want to estimate your real world brightness, Carlton Bale has put together a nice spreadsheet that will give you ft-L based on screen size, viewing distance, and real world lumens.

In my own case, I'm thinking of upsizing my screen again, along with a major theater room overhaul. I haven't decided yet if I'm going commercial or DIY for the 110" diagonal I plan to move up to. I've already purchased the 80/20 frame material, but may write it off. If DIY, I'm either going with DW again or trying SeymourAV's Glacier White. No one's measured the Glacier White to my knowledge, but the sample I have looks identical to my DW screen.

HTH.

-Brent
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post #10 of 35 Old 12-14-2013, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post

Naper, you'd do well to remember the old adage..."There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth."

MM fails to mention that he has a business painting screens for a living. The smart money says SF and Black Flame are the same "formula", yet MM invokes the rules sticky and threatens to go to the mods anytime someone wants to discuss building a frame for commercial screen material that can be purchased directly from AVS.

Pretty much just a comment to invoke a response. So I'll oblige you. I design Home Audio systems and Theaters, and making Screens are but a part of it all. Yet none of that has any bearing as to why / how I help DIY'ers, and frankly, only those trying to make it into a issue relate to it as being such. It does however give me the ways and means to offer some very specific help and advantage to aspiring DIY'ers, and for that I apologize to no one, let alone those selfish enough to want to deny others of that help. I don't use AVS DIY Screens to promote my off Forum business, nor to sell anything, I offer up Silver Fire as a DIY Mix....it's not advertised or sold to AVS'er, so it really doesn't matter what it exists as outside the Forum. When I post a build I do not elaborate on my business nor suggest "I can do one for you" so why would you or anyone bring it up...? Because you want to try to use it as a springboard for a argument or accusation, or to try to prove a pointless opinion. I am not looking for free advertising at the expense of AVS. The same cannot be said with other Commercial Screen component Mfg who themselves do not advertise on AVS. Besides...you cannot even list a Mfg Screen material supplied by AVS that I have ever commented negatively upon unless it was suggested wrongly on this Forum in lue of a DIY alternative, so your claim is warrant-less.

If something is sold by AVS as a Screen or Screen material, then it belongs on the Mfg Screen Forum....end of story.
Quote:
As for your DIY choices. I'm an objective, numbers based kind of guy...comes with the engineering territory. The DIY Screen Section here at AVS used to be full of people attempting to quantify the difference between commercial and DIY solutions. Somewhere along the way it became MM's bully pulpit and folks left for friendlier pastures or simply quit paying attention since they were satisfied with their chosen solution. I only check in from time to time in hopes that things have gotten better...

Or to offer up a total biased and myopic viewpoint that does not itself reflect the truth behind how things are or how they came to be.

First off, if someone chooses a DIY solution and is happy with it, why does their lack of further posting constitute a black mark against this Forum? If anything, it's a compliment. In fact we brag about it. To call it something else....Pretty messed up reasoning there, Brent.

You are the one that fails to mention that "Mech" was permanently banned for flagrant abuse and insulting the owners of AVS, and most every other person who left did so because "Friendlier pastures" simply meant they could chew their Cud in any manner they wished without rebuke, as long as it was AVS and myself they were chewing on....and seeing as they manipulated themselves into a position where they could become far more Draconian in their "control" than the Mods or Owners here on this Forum ever were, it is their motives that are suspect every time they post a Test or commentary of anything we advocate on this DIY Screen forum. I was banned from HTS, as others have been as well, simply for questioning the objectiveness of those who are supposed to be in charge, of their being able to dictate what can be discussed...or offered. Science has nothing to do with simply dictating what one feels is the only way to do things, and then penalizing those who disagree with such. (...and who do so without being abusive...)

Simply put, every one of them owe everything they are...or wish they were, to the interest and effort that existed on AVS before they even came aboard on this Forum. They really never made much effort to really help people, just pre judge and dictate what was their own point of view, and if that didn't work, then personal abuse, trolling, posting arguments with the purposeful intent to get threads deleted, and attempt to get other members excommunicated with false and misleading accusations began. Fortunately, it eventually became so obnoxiously obvious that the Forum owners laid down edicts....and just as fortunately the "future" Shack Boys ignored them, choosing to express how they should dictate Forum rules.

So they were sent packing. Of course as a parting shot that continues to this day (...as you yourself show...) I was held to blame by them for it all simply because I stood up to the unjust and incriminatory...and false allegations made against both my motives and actions. I did not let them run me off and leave the Forum to their whims and ways alone.

Bluntly stated, not a single one of them ever did...nor to this day...has ever spent so much time and continual effort toward helping DIY'ers in every aspect of their projects. If I garnered more attention and a wider, more objective following....I earned it by doing something for individuals upon their own request...not just suggesting things and tearing down differentiating opinions and methods. To that effect, this Forum as created more individuals willing to do likewise than any 5 HTS Forums. And the ridiculous difference in both membership and traffic bears that out as being "truth".

With your own length of time on this Forum, and what appears to be some awareness of what has transpired, that you choose to ignore the obvious transgressions that have occurred and instead point a finger in my direction speaks volumes.

I and other remain loyal to the Forum that birthed our interest and allowed us a place where we could learn and share, not be dictated to and abused.

I am grateful that the majority of members who frequent this DIY Forum realize I'm here for them when they need help....so if I at times dominate the Thread listings, it isn't a case of padding posts...I'm working to make projects be realized. And I both encourage and enjoy seeing other members step up into the Dock. For anyone to say "I own this Forum" or that I get preferential treatment shows they know virtually nothing about the real nature of things....or that they are just being insulting and trolling for a response.
Quote:
The other key reason for declining activity here, IMO, is 10 years ago, a DIY screens made fiscal sense at most any size. With the arrival of Elite, VApex, and a few others, I'd say the cost/benefit ratio just isn't there unless you're going for more than 100" diagonal. Especially after you factor in time. And I'm a die hard DIYer for everything from car maintenance to home improvement.

You are grossly wrong in your "opinion" because there has been no "decline" in activity...just a absence of senseless and argumentative posts. Our Forum, which you seem ready to belittle, has far more activity than elsewhere can hope to muster, and the efforts they have made by listing pointless threads using Silver Fire as a Key word to garner Search hits, and pad those threads with their own postings (...95% of which all come from 3-4 individuals who are all Admins / Mods) pretty much shows how much they crave...and need some traffic. Let's be honest...Mech only got a start on HTS because the Owner Sonny was desperate to get traffic, and Mech promised him that. Yes, he has since evolved to do many other things, but everything must evolve...or die out.

So it always comes down to the same thing....those who have left have done so because they had to own up to following rules or choose otherwise...to support the Forum, or not. Or they fell sway to the rhetoric ladled out on HTS. So don't come onto DIY threads to tear down DIY materials or methods, or those who do what it takes to help make it the place it should always be...a source of help and inspiration. It won't get you much of anything but rebuke and dismissal.

As for you comments about the relative differences in Lumen output between "light Cannons" and lower output PJs, it seems a bit telling you chose to omit the obvious fact that those self same light cannons still remain brighter than the lower lumen PJs ...especially if the lower lumen PJs also get calibrated. As such it cannot be denied that they would need less gain in a screen. But strangely...almost no "painted" DIY Screen application we espouse is sub 1.0 gain. It always has been all about having a effective balance between the PJ / Screen / Room, and any variances to that have to be dealt with accordingly. On a Forum named "The DIY Screen Forum"...it should be obvious we try to do most of the balancing act with DIY screen applications, most all of which must be effectively pared with already existing Projector choices. If there is a chance to suggest a PJ choice, the knowledge exists to do so. What you do not bother to relate is all the reports of WA-DW having the "wrong" type gain....in other words, it can and does hot spot or have distracting sheen characteristics, especially under certain PJ mounting locations. Personally, I have not ever waged war on WA-DW. It resides way down at the bottom of preferred DIY applications of it's own lack of merit. Fragility. Expense. Sheen. Lack of usage flexibility. It gained it's primary support from weak lumen'd CRT Owners, people who were far more likely to have totally light controlled Theaters.

When I or anyone else with the DIY'ers interest in mind offers up a point of view that is centered around trying to get the most quality out of any Screen & PJ combination being considered, it isn't a case of bias or jumping onto a "Pulpit" as those who want to make it into something evil so often state...it's simply stating what experience and knowledge has led us to believe...and "know" would work best...and then from there it's up to the Poster to weigh out the scales and chose for themselves. No one is dragged kicking and screaming into a application they don't want to do. .
If your interested in DIY screen making...post about DIY Screen making. Don't come onto the DIY Screen Forum a suggest buying a Commercial Screen! Lastly, as of the last several months, after receiving a few PMs and making some changes in objective reasoning, I personally have suggested the use of a few various Mfg Screen materials myself for use on hand-build frames...but it was qualified by also stating those materials could be ideally used as a substrate for painting upon. I have authored Threads outlining their use for such. Mfg Acoustic Screen material is NOT in that Company, nor should it be. )...we have Spandex...) Regular Mfg Screen Cloth suggestions that come accompanied by the comment that true DIY "stand alone" materials or Paint are not needed are not in keeping with the DIY Mandate the Forum resides under. While some have resented that limitation, it's really just a simple thing to take their interest and postings to the MFG Screen forum...where all such postings belong.

That's a pretty simple thing, really...but as evidenced still by a few, if it doesn't follow the desires of those few...they can feel compelled to argue the point...and blame those who advocate true DIY Screen making for such restrictions.

Too bad for them...because as for the purpose and intent of the DIY Screen Forum, it's not going to change. They must do so, or go elsewhere and let this Forum continue on helping people realize their expectations without acrimony and discord mucking up the threads. For my part, I don't desire to compose posts like this, but history shows that if such posts as yours are left unanswered, people get misled into believing such stuff. That is the entire reason HTS controls everything that gets posted...and who posts it.

Sorry naperthrill, that your innocent bystander status has gotten dumped upon. You asked for some other opinion on WA-DW...not a debate on why you should listen to one voice of reasoning or another. For whatever responsibility and / or blame goes to me, I apologize.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #11 of 35 Old 12-14-2013, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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no worries. In response to Brent, I know that MM makes a living doing custom home theater installs for various clients (ranging from screen to speakers and everything else). I don't really care that he makes a living, we all have to in our own way. I will add that I do take your comments about SF with a grain of salt given it is your formula lol, but I do agree that many seem to love it. And i would say that you have provided many hundreds if not thousands of AVS members with free advice without ever asking for a cent in return. Mixing the paints in his formula does not make MM any money unless I bought the paint mix directly from him and seems pretty cheap considering I wouldn't have to mix it myself. I was looking into it, but I have probably spent the last several months on AVS forum for at least a few hours every day (gosh who knew creating a home theater would get me this crazy). I have learned so much from this forum, and in deciding on a screen I could go with a cheaper screen for 600-700 bucks that I could likely find in my size. I think I want to do something DIY as I am not a handyman at all and could never create an entire theater myself (until i took some woodworking classes or something) but I feel like a screen is doable and would be something I could be proud of that I made myself in my theater. i have seen several theaters of my friends and some of them are amazing, but the one that has been the most impressive to me is the one where my friends brother in law made his entire room himself. It looked great and I was so jealous that he did it instead of just paying someone to. If only money grew on trees!

I have a young child and in my research it appeared that a DW laminate screen may hold up over the test of time in regards to kids and easy to clean vs a painted or more expensive screen. Once my kids are older, I will likely consider a painted or commercial option. I just can't get myself to pay 2500-3000k right now on a black diamond screen, but maybe ill have the money to blow in a year or two.

I appreciate your input about the DW laminate option. I haven't finalized my decision, but I have read countless posts about SF and just wanted to get a few more opinions on the DW laminate option. It seems to be that they are both great, the SF may be a better choice for ambient light conditions, but the DW may be nice not having to worry about kids screwing it up.

LOL, i just think it is funny that I was trying to keep from getting this off topic, but it seemed to happen anyway.
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post #12 of 35 Old 12-15-2013, 08:02 AM
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I'd like to point out something about WA-DWs penchant to have issues when cleaned. If any real amount of pressure is needed to be applied to Scrub off a stubborn stain or smudge and the existing sheen is disturbed, the resulting "flat spot" can be seen under projected light. That issue has be a reoccurring theme as one of the reported problems.

Care must be taken to dampen such areas, and repeatedly wipe away on the spot until gone, not "scrub".

Better still, if you take a Magic Eraser---dry, and lightly scrub the entire surface 2-3 times over before you mount it, that effectively removes the sheen and creates a truly Flat sheen'd surface.

On the WA-Dw threads, several different Cleaners have been tried, with varied success. Choosing the best one by attrition isn't very good, so the safest choice is plain old Castile Soap and water, as a 10% solution, and use the aforementioned method of carefully...and gradually cleaning.

But if it's a Marking Pen, or other indelible stain, the only remaining recourse is to remove as much as possible, prime, and then re-coat the surface. Which BTW, many have actually chosen WA-DW in the larger sizes to use as a substrate to spray upon.

In the opposite corner, a painted substrate like Sintra...or Drywall is just as easily cleaned, and if the spot is also a indelible stain, a simple spot sanding and a spot recoating using a small 6 oz. Bottle Sprayer (Prevail) and some saved "paint of choice" is a quick and easy fix.

I do have experience using WA-DW....I just don't expound upon such because in every instance (4) there was one issue or another that complicated things. I'm spoiled by not having to deal with issues directly tied to a particular Substrate, excepting having to smooth rough finished Drywall. And I don't like suggesting applications that have a high degree of probability of presenting those issues to the DIY'er if they are not fully aware of them already going forward. Also, as evidenced on your thread, if one does point out the potential issues, it can seem to be an attack on the application....and that is to be avoided anyway if possible. It's a no-win situation at times...and regrettable.

If I have to choose any other substrate beyond the familiar "solid" ones, I use the Flexi-White material sold by Carl's, stretched across a Frame. For those wanting a ready to shoot, washable surface that isn't at all expensive, and that is easy to create...in any size imaginable...that is what I have found to be preferable. Now in my case however, when I use it myself or suggest it's use to others, it's always accompanied by the suggestion that a Coating be applied onto it. But it does have a measured gain of 1.3, and it's surface is "Flat sheen'd" and scrub-able, so barring any "Pencil Pokes-Holes" it's easy to consider it as being "Kid Friendly".

Naperthrill, you have enough choices to consider, and if you accept both the advantages and caveats all have to offer (...nothing is gonna be perfect...) you'll hit upon something that will in the very least satisfy your current needs. My final input would be to consider using a Sintra -like substrate, rubbed down with a Magic Eraser (...most PVC Boards also have a slight sheen...) and avail yourself of a material that is really easy to work with, exceptionally durable, and ready to consider painting upon in the future. And consider this last item, If you can simply screw the Sintra to the wall, keeping the screws within and around a extra 2" perimeter (100" x 58") and overlap the screws with your Trim, no frame is needed. It doesn't come any easier than that. wink.gif

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post #13 of 35 Old 12-15-2013, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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so lets say I give in and go with Sintra (you may slowly be convincing me....). I want something that is easy to mount and take off the wall. More importantly so because I want to have at least 2-3 inches off the wall to allow for rope lighting behind the frame. So I was thinking of either a wood or aluminum frame that would need to have the Sintra attached to it. Then the underlying frame would be screwed down into frame trim (I would leave about 1 inch overlap on all sides so effectively I would most likely create a 58 inch by 103 screen which creates 118inch diagonal. Thus by Sintra would be 60 inch by 105 inches and the frame would need to be 60 x 105.

What method would you recommend for mounting sintra to the underlying frame to allow for this type of a build. I would hang the screen using french cleat on the back. Also was planning on using 1x3 for the trim so with 1 inch overlap this would leave me 2 inch overhang for the rope lighting which I think should be enough. I can adjust if this needs to be altered.
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post #14 of 35 Old 12-15-2013, 09:46 AM
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Ok then .

Hand picked Kiln Dried 2"x4" will give you the stand off from the Wall you need.

You would have to make some changes to your materials your considering, as well as the basic build itself, but I assure you every change would be for the better and simplify things, not complicate them and make thins more expensive.

2"or more off the wall is a bit more than is needed. 1.5" is pretty standard, and easily accommodated by using 2" x 4"s laid Flat against the wall.

The Frame on the wall should be made to be 1" smaller than the outside edge of the Sintra, which itself should be 2" larger on all sides than the actual desired Screen surface. The White Sintra overhang gives you both a smooth surface to attach your lighting to with the supplied adhesive strip, as well a a reflective surface that will enhance the light output.

Using 1x Lumber for Trim is not advisable...the 3/4" stand-off on the inside edge can create a shadow effect, and the type fasteners needed must be more robust. Also, 3/4" thick Pine...or even Poplar can eventually warp. Instead, consider using 1/2" MDF Base...which will never warp, cuts very easily, and is far less expensive per linear foot. Also, one edge is tapered down to less than 1/8: making a very smooth transition onto the screen surface.

Here are a couple Threads that show very similar builds.

The first is a "Trimmed" example with the Sintra slightly overhanging the Rope Lighting:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1361269/110-sf-v2-1-3-0-floating-sintra-screen-w-backlighting-videos-too

The next is a Build that is a "True" Zero Edge affair:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1459880/led-edge-lit-zero-edge-comeuppance-110-diagonal-silver-fire-3-0

Here's my personal commitment. Decide you want to go forward in a direction similar to either example just linked to, or something pretty much the same, and I'll help you all along they way. I don't have to be there, just be able to count on you to follow advice and instructions as given, all being given with the idea of making it come together as simply and affordably as it possibly can...without compromising the end result.

And that end result should be something you can state is better than you could have expected to be possible to achieve otherwise or I will not have done my job.

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post #15 of 35 Old 12-15-2013, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Well then, why not do this. I can't seem to make up my mind and the materials to make either screen should run me about 150-200$. So why not make both? If they are both made with a metal french cleat to hang, I could easily make both a laminate screen as well as a painted sintra screen. We could then put them each up, evaluate, i could take photos to post to the forum, and then I can decide for myself which screen I want. Once i have them on the wall than I would be able to personally decide which screen would be best for me. I am sure I should be able to sell the screen I don't use for at least the cost of materials. Is this perhaps overdoing it?
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post #16 of 35 Old 12-15-2013, 01:05 PM
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Naperthrill

If you are in a light controlled room with your projector stay with a white screen as neutral and smooth as you can get it. DW is a great screen and especially in a room not fighting ambient light.
Your frame idea is a good one.., Don't like it, paint it, don't like that, paint it again, don' t like that, put new substrate on the frame, don't like that put spandex on it. don't like that and get frustrated buy a screen fabric and put on your frame .
You are by no means limiting yourself going with an aluminum frame and laminate . I think if you were to ever want to recoup some of your DIY costs it is easier to sell an aluminum framed screen than a 1x4 frame.
There are a lot of ways to make the frame, lots of tutorials out there as well .
\You might want to french cleat your frame on the upper and lower horizontal frame this will keep the surface plane of the screen parallel to the projector and keep it frm twisting
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post #17 of 35 Old 12-15-2013, 08:02 PM
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^^^

Have anything to contribute?

You don't have to answer -- it's merly a rhetorical question.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

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post #18 of 35 Old 12-15-2013, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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just saw the thread of your daughters doll house and converting it into a media room. cool idea man. also nice tutorial on making your screen. appreciate it. I may look into getting a doll house for my daughter some day. Although looks like you have a much bigger backyard than I do, lol.
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post #19 of 35 Old 12-16-2013, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naperthrill View Post

just saw the thread of your daughters doll house and converting it into a media room. cool idea man. also nice tutorial on making your screen. appreciate it. I may look into getting a doll house for my daughter some day. Although looks like you have a much bigger backyard than I do, lol.

My two daughters are now in college... how time flies. They greatly enjoyed the doll house as such, and then "La Casita" as they call it, as a media room. My son and I still spend some time in there watching movies and sports events.

I can vouch that the "DIY screen" part of AVS Forum was instrumental in the "little house" transformation. I can handle someone's opinion on disliking or liking something, but personal attacks on someone's character they don't even know is way beyond NOT cool.

A big thank you to ALL that contribute in these forums -- experts and those who seek answers alike. smile.gif

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post #20 of 35 Old 12-16-2013, 11:21 AM
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My very first screen is a WA-DW screen. It was cheap, easy to put together ,and throws a great picture.

Glad people are still building it.

Sorry, just a passing thought.

Good luck with the build, and remember to put up some pics when done. We love eye candies around here tongue.gif
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post #21 of 35 Old 12-16-2013, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naperthrill View Post

Well then, why not do this. I can't seem to make up my mind and the materials to make either screen should run me about 150-200$. So why not make both? If they are both made with a metal french cleat to hang, I could easily make both a laminate screen as well as a painted sintra screen. We could then put them each up, evaluate, i could take photos to post to the forum, and then I can decide for myself which screen I want. Once i have them on the wall than I would be able to personally decide which screen would be best for me. I am sure I should be able to sell the screen I don't use for at least the cost of materials. Is this perhaps overdoing it?

Not in the least...and it sounds like a great idea than many would not be willing to do. So if you do it, a lot of people can stand to benefit from you observations and conclusions.

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post #22 of 35 Old 12-16-2013, 06:47 PM
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Wow! Talk about misunderstandings and folks jumping to conclusions. I interpreted Naper's question to be asking for feedback on both the difference of opinions he'd found between AVS/MM and HTS along with thoughts on DW itself. As such, I offered my take on both.

Admittedly, I don't like MM's approach in this section and it was allowed to show in my answer. IMO, he's probably driven away a lot of potentially valuable contributors and I'm not even talking about Mech et al. I actually had tuned out (other interests, satisfied with DW, etc.) some time before whatever frag-fest went down leading to Mech's blog. By the time I came back around to see what, if anything had changed in DIY screens, this had become the MM only section.

-Brent
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post #23 of 35 Old 12-16-2013, 07:37 PM
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What I like about my DIY DW screen is..............my 55lb dog has jumped onto the screen literally 20-25 times and NO DAMAGE!!
That's real world abuse there, the dog see's some animal on screen and vroom.
It's also lasted 5 years of kids abuse, including my now 9 and 7 year old boys throwing "stuff" at it.
My build thread 130" 2.35:1 curved screen

Overall very happy with mine, I can assure you'd be happy with yours if one of your criteria is nearly abuse free from kids/pets
I can't imagine having an AT screen or painted screen standing up to real world abuse of pets/kids like my DW does.
Since your is flat with alum, you will have stable screen.


My "only" downfall is using wood as part of my alum/wood hybrid screen for curve, which with seasonal humidity I've had minor slight buckle that is not noticeable while sitting/viewing at all, only when looking at the screen from near side angle.
>>Yet, since I kno it's there during the 3-4 months of high humidity here in Michigan it bothers me....and MM did offer a solution to me a while back, bond 6mm sintra and paint it, which due to busy life I've not done yet.....
IMG_0138.JPG . IMG_0376.JPG
My "do-over" would be to use this TUF board stuff for the curve portion instead of wood.
IMG_0276.JPG

btw, on the dog jumping onto the screen issue, over Christmas holiday I will try this solution Using invisible fence to avoid dog jumping onto HT screen .

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

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post #24 of 35 Old 12-18-2013, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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got my laminate on order. I found a place that will cut it to size for me for $20 which is great (don't have to buy a router, bit, mess with it etc now). Now to order a frame, velcro, and trim.

Question about the trim. I understand that you wrap the trim in velvet. But how does one attach the trim using finish nails. Wouldn't this put holes into the velvet, or tug the velvet down? i have never used finish nails before so just wondering what that process is. I will probably go an easier route and use aluminum hinge (several on each side) to secure the trim to the frame.
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post #25 of 35 Old 12-18-2013, 11:22 AM
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Question about the trim. I understand that you wrap the trim in velvet. But how does one attach the trim using finish nails. Wouldn't this put holes into the velvet, or tug the velvet down? i have never used finish nails before so just wondering what that process is. I will probably go an easier route and use aluminum hinge (several on each side) to secure the trim to the frame.

No way !

Nothing is easier than tapping in some 1.5" Finish nails, and then setting them below the velvet using a "Nail Punch".

When you do that, the very small nail heads sink into the wood, and the velvet closes over the top of them.

I can't say I've heard of anyone using Hinges for Screen Trim before...and I've been around a spell. As far as trimming out your WA-DW screen, no...driving nails into it is a recipe for disaster. Even Screws must be pre-drilled using a sharp-new Drill Bit and a Drill set on high speed. The WA material cracks just too easily otherwise.

For that application you would use a lot of thin Velcro strips...unless your Frame of Wood extends out beyond the edge of the Laminate and the Trim will overlay the wood and butt up against the outside edge of the Laminate. Then you'd revert back to nailing up the Trim.

BTW, 1.5" Finish Nails pull away off anything they get set into, pretty darn easily, so take-off / replacement isn't any chore at all. Sometimes the nails pull though and remain in the under-wood surface, sometimes they stay in the Trim...the latter usually dependent upon how deep you "set them" with the Nail Punch. (..always use a very small tipped Nail Punch for the tiny-headed Finish Nails....)

I realize everything seems harder if you've never done it before, but I would be remiss in telling you anything is easy only to have you find out otherwise. And the nailin'....it's easy. cool.gif

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post #26 of 35 Old 12-24-2013, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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laminate obtained! for those thinking about it, I don't own a truck and was able to easily fit the rolled up laminate into my toyota camry. I also picked up some industrial strength velcro 2in x 15 feet. I noticed that they also had a Ultra-Mate variety of velcro that was in 1inch width by 10 feet which would be much easier as I wouldn't have to cut anything however I wasn't sure if anyone has tried this variety of velcro with laminate. If it is just as good I may go and exchange what I bought however if it is not going to hold up then I will stick with Industrial Strength.
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post #27 of 35 Old 12-24-2013, 08:07 AM
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Industrial strength is the one to use, although you might be short of the amount needed to assure a continual "Grab". Especially if you going to consider using it to attach any Trim with as well.

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post #28 of 35 Old 12-24-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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MM, do you know if yourself or anyone else has used 80/20 to attach sintra? They sell PVC on their website as well and I noticed that in the Quick Frame variety there is a version that has a Twin Flange. If you were to get a frame with this on all sides, would it hold the Sintra firmly in place? would be interesting.

here is a link

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8020-Quick-Frame-Tube-Twin-Flange-9025-x-48-25-N-/220471372366?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33551e2a4e
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post #29 of 35 Old 12-25-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naperthrill View Post

MM, do you know if yourself or anyone else has used 80/20 to attach sintra? They sell PVC on their website as well and I noticed that in the Quick Frame variety there is a version that has a Twin Flange. If you were to get a frame with this on all sides, would it hold the Sintra firmly in place? would be interesting.

here is a link

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8020-Quick-Frame-Tube-Twin-Flange-9025-x-48-25-N-/220471372366?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33551e2a4e
I know your question was to MM . But I Hope you don\t mind me answering.smile.gif
Are you using laminate or sintra ?
Are you planning on putting a backing on your laminate or sintra
You could use the 905 series if you are using going velcro ?? to the frame it would have a nice 1/2 " lip to velco to
The 9025 would work if you were using the thicker Sintra but not so good for a unbacked laminate.
the 905 frame would velcro better on laminate but you would have to pretty accurate . iI you are going this route you could velvet wrap a nice 3/8" x 3.5" mdf flat stock then attack that to the frame with velcro
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post #30 of 35 Old 01-03-2014, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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using laminate, no backing just velcro.

Update:

Laminate has been cut to specified size - cost $12
Quick Frame has been shipped and should arrive on Monday


Hopefully next week the screen will be completed or it may wait until the weekend.
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