Easy Ambient Light Rejecting Screen Paint - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 1345 Old 09-08-2014, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Easy Black/Dark-Grey Ambient Light Rejecting Screen Paint

Please read this entire first post before painting.

This is a ~400lumen projector hitting a 110" screen that is made of an $8panel covered in $30worth of paint!
A black zero-edge for less than a night out?..yes you can.

The picture above is using 1quart of RalphLauren metallic "untinted" (HomeDepot recently replaced this with a similar PPG tintable metallic) mixed with 1quart of flat/matte-black "Deep Onyx", rolled onto a lightweight 1/4" MDF panel.
But, a quart of metallic-"untinted" mixed with 15oz flat-grey tinted "Grey Tabby" is my current favorite darker mix, and a quart of metallic-"untinted" mixed with 9oz-10oz flat-grey tinted-"Seal Grey" is a brighter all-around mix that is very well behaved for most situations.

The idea behind this mix is to have a black or dark-colored light-fighting screen that can be rolled-on or sprayed-on easily and inexpensively and paired with nearly any projector you might have.
No high-gain screen works particularly well with a true short-throw projector. These fall into that category.

-Each mix will consist of only two ingredients; a water-based metallic for one, and a dark-base (flat/matte grey or black) for the other.
-The two ingredients will simply be mixed together and rolled on with a standard 1/4" nap roller (not foam), or sprayed with an inexpensive HVLP paint gun.
-Two rolled coats is typical if painting over a fairly different color, use only the flat/matte for the first coat, then make your mix and apply it as the second coat..1quart total of mix is plenty for a 4.5x8ft (110") screen.
-I'm mostly working with RalphLauren or PPG metallic (available at HomeDepot) and Rustoleum Metallic Accents (available at Lowe's), but there are many alternative metallics that can also work for anyone unable to acquire one brand or another. FolkArt and Rustoleum make excellent metallics as well, though they are only available already tinted and require different amounts to achieve the same brightness.

If you'd like to have a little freedom with your mix choices, here's a chart that might help you choose for rolling.
Just pick a ratio of metallic:flat/matte and pick the color of the flat/matte.
Mixing the darkest flat/matte+metallic at higher concentrations than 60-67% metallic is NOT recommended.

This assumes you're either using UN-TINTED RalphLauren/PPG metallic and ColorPlace flat while rolling onto a surface that's laying flat on the floor.
I've found spraying to be a bit more consistent and really easy with my simple setup and $40-$50sprayer.
-Using Rustoleum metallic Pearl allows you to use half as much metallic compared to RalphLauren or PPG metallic.
-Using Rustoleum metallic SterlingSilver allows you to use 1/8 as much metallic compared to RalphLauren or PPG.
-Using FolkArt metallic requires matte clear instead of paint because FolkArt now contains too little metallic/mica and too much gloss for mixing together with a small amount of paint.

Spoiler!


Painting with any metallic or glossy paint will highlight imperfections in the surface you are painting. If you are painting onto something other than a smooth panel, shine a bright light at a sharp angle across your planned surface and be prepared to sand it smooth.

Here are some excellent paint-rolling instructions, courtesy of a more experienced painter than myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiresmokinV8 View Post
... Used a 1/4" nap roller, the longer rollers not the 3" wide ones.

I never loaded the roller up with a ton of paint so that it would be easier to do a light coat each time. I didn't use any pressure forcing the roller into the wall, just let it do its job. Speed I'd say was a slower pace. I never ended a pass in the middle of the wall. After painting a section I went back and ran the roller edge to edge to make sure I didnt leave any marks from where I started or lifted the roller from the surface.
I'd like to add the suggestion to roll ALL coats vertically, top-to-bottom, as that's what's worked best for me. It also makes it less likely to run the roller dry partway through a run because top-to-bottom is less distance than side-to-side on a screen.
I make sure to do all my rolling, loading, edge-cleaning/rolling, etc..in the same direction (up-to-down, far-to-near), as if pretending the roller itself can't even turn the other way. It's easy, and I never really thought much about it until I was going really fast on a screen and rolled back upwards instead of starting from the top again and noticed the roller nap fluffed outward like an animal pet from tail-to-head.
Going both directions didn't seem to murder the screen, but the roller looked like it would be doing terrible things so I've made a more conscious effort to keep doing things the one way.


If you're having troubles with leaving thick-ish roller edge marks behind as you paint, rolling the roller's edges at a slight angle with one end up in the air diagonally and the other on the paint-tray's "washboard" (the angled, bumpy section) to get some of the extra paint off the roller's edges can help a lot.
The build-up of extra paint along the roller's outside edges is the biggest creator of problems for rolling.

I generally load the roller up with paint, give it a roll all-the-way-around on the washboard (using only the roller's weight to push down)just to make sure I'm not dripping, and then give a quick rotation all-the-way-around on the washboard with each end of the roller (tilting the roller diagonal..one end slightly up in the air).
Then roll a row onto the screen/surface.
For the rows, the roller's own weight is all I use for pressure against the surface unless I'm consistently leaving a slight dry patch in the row in which case I'll give a very light pressure as I get to that part.

Then repeat;
Load, roll the edges on the washboard, roll a second row with a couple inches overlapping the first.

After you've rolled the second row, instead of reloading and starting a third, skip reloading for now and give a top-to-bottom pass across the two rows you've rolled so far using only the roller's weight, starting halfway off the screen's side and halfway on the first row, and then overlapping each pass by a couple inches with the next until you make it back to the point where you stopped.

Then load the roller, roll the edges on the washboard, roll a third row with a couple inches overlapping the second.
Repeat for a fourth row.

After getting your two new rows, instead of reloading, roll over the two fresh rows starting halfway on the third row and halfway on the older second row..and repeat the top-to-bottom couple inches overlapping gentle passes till you make it to your present stopping point.
Then reload, clean the edges, make a new row, and repeat the two-row process till you've finished the first coat.

The rolling on the screen after ~2rows won't fix really bad roller-marks usually, but it can help smaller imperfections and smaller roller-marks by getting the surface a little more uniform. This is done without loading the roller (right after rolling the second row), it should be fine to overlap your rows during this a couple inches..and I still have just been letting the roller's weight provide all the pressure. Not pushing unless there's a noticeable thin patch that can be subtly filled in during this last pass.
I'd imagine a more experienced roller could skip this step entirely, but it seems to help for me.

Here's a short video showing what the above-mentioned process looks like:

Let the first plain coat (or slightly thinned plain coat) dry at least 2-3hours (the longer, the better) and then repeat the whole thing using your mix (NOT thinned) for a second coat.
Usually two coats is plenty even if you're covering a tricky surface (about a quart per coat on a 110" screen). The lighter-colored mixes when painted onto a light-colored/white surface can often get away with a single coat.


Hopefully this advice will make your first rolling a success.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using the earlier rolling instructions I would buy a ~$10 gallon of ColorPlace(walmart brand) flat interior paint OR a ~$15 gallon of Glidden Pro/Professional(HomeDepot) flat interior paint and pour about 1quart into a separate container to mix with about 8oz of water and use that for the first coat..let it dry a few hours and then shine a light sideways onto it to check if any areas could use a quick sanding.
This thinned paint will likely run, so protect your floor and the wall wherever it could drip.

Then I would use a quart can of ~$22 RalphLauren or PPG silver tintable metallic (from HomeDepot) and have the store shake it up but not add any tint.
Then in a separate container I'd mix the whole can of metallic together with required amount of flat-grey from the gallon container (NOT anything that's been thinned with water)..and use the same rolling instructions to roll a coat using this mix.

Watch the video below the instructions too if possible. I like to make sure the roller has a good amount of paint on it for each row because I use practically no pressure while painting even if the surface is up on a wall. Even while loading the roller with paint I never pressure it into the pan..it's all just letting the roller do the work. ..'cause I'm lazy...and it helps avoid roller-marks and texture.


I've mostly been rolling paint so far, but spraying paint with a proper HVLP gun can allow you to paint onto soft/vinyl surfaces more easily as well as use higher ratios of metallic with better odds of avoiding visible texture which means you avoid shimmer/sparkle.
If you plan to spray your paint on, I suggest giving several thin "duster" coats.
I've been using a Wagner Opti-Stain which was about $40-$50, easy to clean, and creates very little overspray. I've been thinning
my PPG or Ralphlauren metallic plus ColorPlace-grey with about 15%-30% water which lets these particular paints flow smoothly but avoid pooling/running which can lead to dark spots on the surface.
I rotated the trigger-block of the Wagner OptiStain 4-5 full rotations (counter clock-wise) away from its innermost position to lessen the flow of paint, and I've been experimenting with how close and slow I can paint without the paint speckles running together and forming darker spots.
So far using faster/lighter duster coats has helped a lot without increasing the texture.

The next post (after MississippiMan's) contains pictures of a few mixes with short descriptions.

Only this (post#1) is required reading, but giving a quick look through post#3 is also recommended. The rest is completely optional and not needed.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #2 of 1345 Old 09-08-2014, 07:45 PM
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...and good luck to ya!

Something to aim for...............

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post #3 of 1345 Old 09-08-2014, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Cameras tend to show hot/warm-spotting worse than it looks in person while other aspects (contrast, resolution, shimmer) tend to look better on camera than in person..ALL photos should be taken with a grain of salt.


The top/left is a rolled SilverFire v2.5 (current as of January 2016).
The top/right is an 18:1white (18parts untinted Disney/Glidden OR RalphLauren metallic and 1part ColorPlace flat Light-Base) that's not very suited to daylight, but very bright.
The bottom/left is a 9:1GreyTabby which is showing remarkable similarity to the rolled $100-SilverFire lvl-12 mixture despite being a simple 2-ingredient $25 mix.
The bottom/right is a 5:1 ObsidianGlass which is darker and a bit more aggressive against the daylight.




3.5parts RalphLauren silver metallic "untinted" AND 1part flat interior latex tinted "Seal Grey"
The bottom row shows the relative gain on-axis and far off-axis in a much darker room, as well as a pair of side-by-side shots with rolled SilverFire-NC with a decent amount of light.




1-2part/s Rustoleum silver metallic "sterling silver" AND 1part flat/matte interior latex, tinted "obsidian glass or grey metal"
Roughly N5.5-N6-shade, about 1.1-1.2gain on-axis.
90 lumen projector at 1.35:1 (distance:width) from 55" 16:9




1part RalphLauren silver metallic "untinted" AND 1part flat/matte interior latex, tinted "obsidian glass or grey metal"
Roughly N4.5-shade, about 0.5-0.6gain on-axis.
90 lumen projector at 1.35:1 (distance:width) from 55" 16:9




1part RalphLauren silver metallic "untinted" AND 1part flat/matte interior latex, tinted "deep onyx"
Roughly N4-shade, about 0.5-0.6gain on-axis.
90 lumen projector at 1.35:1 (distance:width) from 55" 16:9




1part RalphLauren silver metallic "untinted" AND 2parts flat/matte interior latex, tinted "deep onyx"
Roughly N3.5-shade, about 0.3-0.5gain on-axis.
90 lumen projector at 1.35:1 (distance:width) from 55" 16:9




1part RalphLauren silver metallic "untinted" AND 2parts flat/matte interior latex, tinted "deep onyx"
Roughly N3.5-shade, about 0.3-0.5gain on-axis.
140 lumen projector at 1.35:1 (distance:width) from 55" 16:9




3parts RalphLauren silver metallic "Garden Twilight" AND 1part flat/matte interior latex, tinted "deep onyx"
OR
3parts RalphLauren silver metallic "Untinted" AND 2parts flat/matte interior latex, tinted "deep onyx"
Roughly N4-shade, about 0.7-0.8gain on-axis.
400 lumen projector at 1.4:1 (distance:width) from 110" 16:9



2parts Disney/Glidden metallic "Untinted" AND 1part flat/matte interior latex, tinted "grey tabby"
Roughly N5-shade, about 0.7-0.8gain on-axis.
400 lumen projector at 1.4:1 (distance:width) from 98" 16:9

The 3:1 metallic:flat black screen mix naturally has the highest amount of visual-texture as a result of the high metallic content and dark surface.
To give an idea of what to expect, here are some pictures zeroing in on the brightest section starting from 8feet away, then 5feet, 2feet and finally a few inches.

8ft


5ft


2ft


~inches


While the effect becomes less visible at farther seating distances, no ambient-light-rejecting screen will ever be quite as "invisible" with an image in the dark as a plain flat/matte white.

If you can keep lights off your screen, a plain white screen or paint is an excellent choice.
If you have to fight lights hitting the screen, think about giving one of these a try.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #4 of 1345 Old 09-08-2014, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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These pictures are of a mix which used MarthaStewart metallic (discontinued), and will only be left as a reference because I'm paranoid about deleting and later regretting it.
Spoiler!


Spoiler!
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post #5 of 1345 Old 09-09-2014, 05:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Spoiler!

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post #6 of 1345 Old 09-27-2014, 03:24 PM
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the more I see the painted screens the more I want to go that route! Can you post a pic of a projected image with some lights on to showcase how well it keeps color in an ambient light type of situation?

thanks!
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post #7 of 1345 Old 09-27-2014, 05:23 PM
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I'd like to also see some images of how the application the OP is trying to muster performs with some real amount of indirect ambient light present.

The images I see lack any real depth or dynamics....and if the reason is because you cannot take a picture representative of what the end user can expect to be able to judge by, then that means all decisions must be made based on a stated opinion.

That doesn't cut it.

Recently, every shot I have posted was from my Galaxy 4s Phone. Many are taken from enough of a distance away that usually over 50% of the image area shows the surrounding room. (...Close in (Zoomed) shots always misrepresent a screens performance...they are eye candy...little more...)A great ambient light screen not only resists the effects of ambient light, it presents a balanced, vibrant image that is easily captured on Camera because it is not dismally low in foot lambert reflectivity, nor excessively bright at center.

So....as previously posted....shoot for the image shown below as a Target. Because I can tell ya that RS-MaxxMudd is essentially what you see, as the screen below is Silver Fire v2.5 reflective mix with no colorant added. So...it doesn't need to be made darker to resist ambient light, and what you see isn't what can be construed as "indirect ambient light"...it's actually direct Flood Lighting washing onto each end of the screen.

Oh yeah, if you want to advocate a Roll-only mix, RS-MM-LL has roll-ability.




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post #8 of 1345 Old 09-28-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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These pictures are of a mix which used MarthaStewart metallic (discontinued), and will only be left as a reference because I'm paranoid about deleting and later regretting it.
Spoiler!
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post #9 of 1345 Old 09-28-2014, 11:57 AM
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I don't know if this will help in your quest or not but when I painted the 120" screen in my bedroom I originally had a neutral gray (anti-glare flat) color but went to silver fire soon after. Once the silver fire was on the colors were better as expected but every little wall related imperfection showed up in the image despite my best efforts to flatten the texture. So in the midst of repainting the neutral gray I had the projector running so I could see the difference and I HATED the difference! So still having some ingredients left over from silver fire I added the sterling silver and pearl (about 4oz total to a quart of paint) to the off the shelf gray which resulted in a very dark gray with a bit of gain and amazing color reproduction, the best part was it could be rolled on and hid every little wall imperfection I could throw at it. Hope this helps, good luck!
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post #10 of 1345 Old 09-28-2014, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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If I'm understanding you right, that's a 1:8 (metallic:grey-tinted base) ratio and the small-ish amount of silver STILL made visible difference that looked really nice.

Do you happen to remember what shade of grey you used? If a 1:8 mix looked bright enough, then I'm guessing a 50/50-ish mix would be quite bright at that shade.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #11 of 1345 Old 09-29-2014, 07:37 AM
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I believe it was about a 1:8 ratio I would've liked to use more but that was the last of it at the time. Also I believe by adding the pearl it widens the viewing cone but makes it lighter colored so you can play around with that.


As for the base color I had them mix a custom color at ACE the numbers are as follows:
C:22
E:28
I:18
incandescent 124a310 Quart. Then I used the ultra white tint base for wall and trim with the flat anti glare properties. (the lady actually told me that the other flat paints snuck some gloss into there mixes!)
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post #12 of 1345 Old 09-29-2014, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Spoiler!

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post #13 of 1345 Old 09-29-2014, 03:34 PM
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Ftoast,

Until you go so far as to paint up full sized examples, and show positive results in both imagery and paint application, please refrain from even suggesting that others might be able to follow suit. You have far to go before anything your attempting is remotely ready to recommend. And as far as brushing a larger screen surface with the paints your suggesting....well basically it's just plain nonsense. Go ahead and try it yourself...full size. Unless your using a true Flat with no metallic s, and you have both the paint's viscosity and the Brush's "quality"...as well as your own skill at perfect levels, it's not going to come close to being acceptable.

I'm not fussin' or pickin', just letting you know now what I really think you already know, or suspect.

BTW, the images you show are very small, and almost any PJ, low lumen or otherwise, when zoomed down so small can light up a darker screen.

But what I also see is some severe crushing of whites...not just a little, but a lot.

Now look at these images....taken today of a 120" x 50" screen and a Panny 8K set at 16' 5" throw. Note if you will the insane sunlight coming in on the Left of the screen, as well as through the casement window on the upper right of the screen. Absolutely torturous conditions that no screen mfg. would ever show off their wares against.

While even the SF v2.5 w/No Colorant cannot produce eye candy quality images, the nature of it's composition allows for the results you see.

So how bright is a room with the western sun coming in a 28' wall of windows with no curtains? Just this bright.


Standard Direct TV image. Sun is very slightly muted by a passing cloud.



And if it's so sunny, why not catch some Rays?



There are possibilities....even probabilities, but what you want are certainties.

Create such certainties before wording posts in a manner where people might actually consider "going down that road".
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post #14 of 1345 Old 09-29-2014, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Spoiler!

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post #15 of 1345 Old 09-30-2014, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you ready for way too many pictures? Too bad, they're coming anyway!


But what about ridiculous angles that nobody will be watching from?


But it's probably way dimmer than a white screen or there's some sort of trick and it isn't much darker..


What about ridiculous angles nobody watches from..against a white screen?


Can I have a mostly black image for the road?


That screen's tiny..
.....That screen IS tiny, it's only 49". It's also only getting hit with 90lumens. That's almost 12.5ftL which is equivalent to a 145" screen getting hit with 800lumens.

Does that mean MY projector that puts out 800lm in eco-mode will be this bright on a 16:9 screen that's nearly 6ft tall?
.......Yes. Yes it does.

Is it difficult to apply?
.....This was hastily rolled on with a standard 1/4nap roller, it is only one coat..and for the record, I'm not a good painter.

Is it difficult to mix, find ingredients, or afford?
......It's just a quart of Rustoleum metallic accents-sterling silver and a quart of cheapo/storebrand flat-base tinted to "grey metal" a neutral grey around N4..I believe it's the next shade darker than "grey tabby" which should give similar results and might be easier to find in a colorbook. I put them both together (half and half) in a quart container and shook vigorously for a couple minutes..no tools were used. It's about $25-30 for the metallic and about $5-10 for the flat-base..my wallet was unharmed. The Rustoleum is available at a couple locations or online..the flat-base is available anywhere paint is sold.

Is this the end?
.....Sorry, no. I'd still like to play with some water-poly instead of deep/accent-base and see if anything good happens. I'm a little sad about it because the base is less than half the price of the poly, but it should still be cheap in the end, just more expensive to experiment/play with. I'd also still like to get similar or better results using the RL metallic that's both a little cheaper and a little more widely available than the Rustoleum.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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Not bad, still would be pretty interesting to see full scaled results, at least 60-70" or so since you have a lower lumen light gun.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 10-20-2014 at 03:20 PM.
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post #18 of 1345 Old 10-06-2014, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frozen_hampster View Post
Not bad, still would be pretty interesting to see full scaled results, at least 60-70" or so since you have a lower lumen light gun.
I've also got the 400lm LG that'll allow a 105" to give similar results. I just need to buy more paint and figure out where in the world I'm going to hang another screen for a while.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was able to play around with a bunch of different ingredients and found some nice and some not so nice things.
..trying to find a combination that works particularly well before committing it onto another full-size screen.

-The rustoleum metallic is still great.

-The Ralph Lauren metallic is also great, but needs to be used at higher concentrations because it is a weaker metallic. I've found that a roughly 6:1 (RL:matte) compares very close to a 1:1 mix using Rustoleum metallic or FolkArt metallic instead.

-The Martha Stewart metallic is like painting with gasoline..it's an awful experience and I'm glad it's been replaced by the RL at homedepot.

-The FolkArt metallic is really well concentrated for as dark as it is in some versions and available at a few different places, though it's acrylic and pretty thick. The FolkArt SterlingSilver and pearl are good substitutes for those without access to the Rustoleum versions..the FolkArt is common to art supply stores as well as department store art sections and is pretty easy to find.

-The matte water-based poly is really fun as either a mix or a top layer diffuser. It's thinner than paint (except the MarthaStewart metallic), but not enough to be a pain. A simple 1:2 mix (poly:metallic) is enough to get impressive results with the RL metallic but the Rustoleum or FolkArt requires something closer to a 3:1 (poly:metallic) mix.

-The fauxglaze is thicker (thick as paint) but is only available as higher gloss and it takes forever to dry. It has no advantage over plain deep-base as far as I've seen.

-The deep-base (untinted) looks basically the same as the clear glaze but is available as flat/matte, dries at a normal speed and is very cheap, widely available and is optional to get tinted to very exact specifications. It offers similar diffusion properties as the poly but needs to be used in smaller amounts (about half as much) to achieve the same look.

I'm liking the flexibility offered by the RL metallic/FA metallic and deep-base..basically every ratio of opacity/transparency and any color/shade is available for a total of $30 available in every US state at a major chain.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 10-28-2014 at 01:28 AM.
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post #19 of 1345 Old 10-17-2014, 02:40 PM
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interesting thread. and a job well done. i like what I have seen here. I am generally hopping from thread to thread trying to figure out the best way to go about making a a black or as close to black as possible screen. But let me understand something about your mix cause they way you have gone about explaining everything is kinda confusing.

1. You take a flat base. Is this base black that gets tinted to a shade of N4 grey or what? Or is it the other way round?
2. Then for reflective properties you basically use the rustolenium silver paint?
3. And all this is done to a 1:1 ratio?
4. No signs of sparkles at all even when using the silver?
5. How thick is the resultant mix?
6. Have you considered adding polyurethane?

Do you think you can break the mix down into sections. Like have a section for the base and describe what you use for that and what quantity then have a section for the reflective part and do the same.

I am currently looking into making a silverfire screen. And I am fixing to go as dark as a 10.0 mix which should be pretty dark. I have at least seen a sample of SFv2.5 8.0 and not only did it look great and pretty dark it didn't show any sparkles. So I am gonna try and push it as far as I can.

If nothing else, your method is cheaper.... it needs to go bigger and be applied properly so we can actually see it in action.
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post #20 of 1345 Old 10-17-2014, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Spoiler!

1. The base getting mixed half/n/half with the Rustoleum SilverMetallic that I used was just a cheapo store-brand flat interior latex that I asked the store to tint to "metal grey" (an N4 grey) at walmart. Accent/deep-base is actually clear if left untinted..this is what all paint places use to make dark colors.

2. Yes, Rustoleum metallic accents sterling silver.

3. Yes, 1:1, half'n'half.

4. You can see a little sparkling if you walk right up next to the screen with this particular mix.

5. Pretty syrup-y I'd say. It's maybe a tiny bit thicker than regular interior house-paint..the Rustoleum metallic is kinda thick, it's really friendly to work with because it resists running so well and covers on the first coat.

6. Yes I've been messing around with the poly as a third ingredient AND as just one of two ingredients in some mixes. When used with the rustoleum/N4-tinted base combo it didn't do much..makes the mix a little more transparent (so you might want another coat) and slightly tames the little bit of sparkle there is up close.
Mostly it made for awesome 2parts metallic 1part polyurethane mixes that could use the darker silver and even black metallic paints and still have decent uniformity and little-to-no sparkling. A bit more playing showed that using untinted deep-base instead of poly worked the same way as long as you used roughly half as much deepbase as you were previously using poly.

7. This thread could definitely use a clean-up and re-organization.

Once I finally get around to making some large samples of the different mixes (gotta double-check uniformity on the darkest ones) it'll hopefully get an overhaul that makes more sense.

The 1:1 rustoleum:dark-grey-base mix is about an N5 shade, the darker 4:1 dark-grey-metallic:untinted-deepbase mixes are around N4 (very dark grey..looks nearly black against a bright white wall), and the black-metallic by FolkArt mixed 1:1 with untinted deepbase or 1:2 with matte-poly should be around N3 which is black.

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post #21 of 1345 Old 10-17-2014, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post


5. Pretty syrup-y I'd say. It's maybe a tiny bit thicker than regular interior house-paint..the Rustoleum metallic is kinda thick, it's really friendly to work with because it resists running so well and covers on the first coat.

6. Yes I've been messing around with the poly as a third ingredient AND as just one of two ingredients in some mixes. When used with the rustoleum/N4-tinted base combo it didn't do much..makes the mix a little more transparent (so you might want another coat) and slightly tames the little bit of sparkle there is up close.
Mostly it made for awesome 2parts metallic 1part polyurethane mixes that could use the darker silver and even black metallic paints and still have decent uniformity and little-to-no sparkling. A bit more playing showed that using untinted deep-base instead of poly worked the same way as long as you used roughly half as much deepbase as you were previously using poly.

and the black-metallic by FolkArt mixed 4:1 with untinted deepbase or 2:1 with matte-poly should be around N3 which will effectively look black. I haven't tried that one yet though.
Thanks for clearing that up... but as these things go... some answers generally lead to more questions. Please indulge me.

5. The thickness, doesn't using polyurethane lighten the mix up a bit making it less thick? I ask cause I intend to spray the paint on whatever choses surface I go with. Don't mind giving it like 5-8 coats.

6. I like the sound of this... I have been toying with the idea of using only polyurethane mixed with a metallic paint so its nice to see that you have tried it. I am particularly interested in your results with the poly and black metallic paint. Why I am leaning towards using poly is cause I am hoping it can thin the paint mixture as much as possible to allow me spray the paint.

What you have so far accomplished so far is impressive. I mean the images don't lie. I think the reason your blacks in the images are lighter than the actual shade of your test panels is cause of whatever PJ you are using bleeding light into the black scenes.

Its just hard to measure what kinda effect we will see if these samples are made a lot bigger.

I feel that if I still went with the silverfire approach and just dialed it up to 11 on the colorant scale I would basically end up with a screen as dark as these since with silver fire increasing the amount of colorant used basically just darkens the paint.
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post #22 of 1345 Old 10-18-2014, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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The polyurethane does thin the mix a little, but you'll still have to add water to thin it to spraying viscosity either way..I don't think even 100% poly is quiiiiite thin enough for the thin needles usually recommended.

I don't think water changes the sprayed mix though because it evaporates away..just means it needs more layers.

So far the closest I've gotten to what you're looking for is the 3parts poly and 1part black FolkArt metallic which turned out too much poly but still works alright, using less poly should make it darker colored as well as brighter for on-screen images..just loses some brightness uniformity which it can probably spare at this point.
The other close one is 1part poly and 2parts black RalphLauren metallic which turned out slightly darker in screen color and decently brighter on-axis..so the even stronger even blacker FolkArt metallic should do some cool stuff in a 33%-poly 67%-metallic or a 50/50 if need be.

I have been making sure to take the pictures from distances that are to-scale as if the entire thing were larger and higher lumen, so I'd expect the only real change would be any possible sparkling would become less visible as the screen goes bigger..but it certainly needs to happen either way, big samples are simply much more believable proof than anything else.

By my math SF can get down to an N6 at the darkest using a non-custom mix. Your changes will darken it farther but also lower gain. I might suggest you change it even more to replace the white-pearl mica with thesilver mica instead..so a total of about 50oz of silver mica and no white..it might also help to skip the white Behr too, you'll be using more acrylic anyway, so you'll basically be substituting some black instead of white which sounds like the road you're aiming for. That should give you a darker-colored but slightly higher gain version of SF than is currently possible.
It still probably won't get darker than N4-N5 without switching to an even darker metallic. The rustoleum metallic accents paint DOES have a darker grey as well as a near-black which will let you get down to N3 and possibly lower without turning into a 0.05gain screen (which IS a real thing at this level of darkness).

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 10-20-2014 at 03:28 PM.
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post #23 of 1345 Old 10-18-2014, 02:13 PM
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Skipping the Behr / White and using Silver metallic exclusively will result in far too much graininess and particle reflectivity. The White is there to partially mask reflectivity...without such, the end results will be untenable.

One uses White Pearl to gain both some additional "White content" but also increase Mica content.

Of course the White does serve to keep the mix lighter than it would be otherwise, but in truth, it's proportions have always be far greater than those of the Colorant, and still the addition of even small incremental amounts of Colorant resulted to creating a disproportionate increase in the Mix'es darkness.

Really...the quest to try to darken SF to the point where the surface is virtually Black is a fruitless endeavor. Once one achieves a 8.0 / 9.0 ratio, a point of dimenishing returns is reached.
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post #24 of 1345 Old 10-18-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
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Really...the quest to try to darken SF to the point where the surface is virtually Black is a fruitless endeavor. Once one achieves a 8.0 / 9.0 ratio, a point of dimenishing returns is reached.
And that is exactly what I feared. That if I went darker that what you or PB max have recommended I would see first hand why you guys don't recommend it. I have seen an 8.0 picture.. and it does look dark. Not as dark as what Ftoast has here but its at least dark. I am considering going with the 9.0 mix, if that is the absolute furthest I may be able to push it.....

arrrrgh!!!! decisions, why this is important to me is that the place I am going to put this screen would be exposed to a lot of ambient light and will have a lot of people coming over to watch premiere league soccer games which in my country will happen in at mid day. Its not a put of the lights kinda environment at all.

MM I am holding you and PB personally responsible for not having made the silverfire FX yet. That does sound like something that could at least get a lot darker then the silverfire v2.5.
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post #25 of 1345 Old 10-18-2014, 10:57 PM
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You apparently have not seen a sf 8 or 9 or 10 by MM or myself...because the image isn't dark at all...quite the opposite...it is brighter than anyone's n8/n9.

Heck take any darker grey and you'll have better blacks...but the way I see it...an n4/5 is not worth doing if all the other colors of the sprectrum are adversely shifted darker. If your white levels and flesh tones can't compare to an n8/9...you need to go back to the drawing board.


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post #26 of 1345 Old 10-19-2014, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post
You apparently have not seen a sf 8 or 9 or 10 by MM or myself...because the image isn't dark at all...quite the opposite...it is brighter than anyone's n8/n9.

Heck take any darker grey and you'll have better blacks...but the way I see it...an n4/5 is not worth doing if all the other colors of the sprectrum are adversely shifted darker. If your white levels and flesh tones can't compare to an n8/9...you need to go back to the drawing board.
Nope. I think you misunderstood me. I said I have seen a picture of the 7.0/8.0. And funny enough I was actually referring to one of the pictures you put up in the SF OT in the very batch that this picture you posted now was in.

I was referring to the color of the actual screen and not the image displayed on it. Everything I have been talking about so far is about getting a screen to be as dark as possible while still maintaining at least above average optical quality.

So basically I was saying that the 7.0/8.0 is the darkest of the SF series screens I have seen. That was actually a compliment. But that it wasn't as dark as I want it to be and how I feared pushing the silverfire mix to 10.0 or even 12.0 may introduce issues that has so far prevented you and MM from pushing it that far. And MM confirmed my fears.

So sorry for the mix up but yh, you misunderstood me. I did also throw in a dig on the SF FX screen that you working on, I can't help but feel it would be exactly what I am looking for.

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post #27 of 1345 Old 10-19-2014, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Spoiler!

This is how dark the Gunmetal Gray metallic by FolkArt looks in a full daylight, white walls family room.



Looking at the top/left corner, you can see that despite the dark surface it is actually a little brighter than the white surround when hit by light coming over the seats..this is somewhere around a 20x gain boost. You'll still need either a slightly curved screen or a decent amount of poly/clear-base to even out brightness uniformity into something that looks really nice. The FA Sequin Black is still quite a bit darker than even this, so I'm reeeeally hopeing the gold-ish metallic doesn't mess it up too badly.


Spoiler!
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 01-01-2015 at 11:36 PM.
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post #28 of 1345 Old 10-19-2014, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Two quick notes:
Woohoo! the Sequin Black FolkArt metallic seems to show pleasant colors and greyscale compared to flat-white..I'm sure it's a far cry from perfection, but at least it doesn't look ugly.
Spoiler!
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Last edited by Ftoast; 01-01-2015 at 11:38 PM.
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post #29 of 1345 Old 10-19-2014, 11:14 AM
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Pictures or its not happening!!!!

I have a Benq W1080st rated for 2200 lumens but we all know thats not real. Projectorcentral review has it putting out about 1500+ or so in a couple of modes. As for screen size I am aiming for 100"-110".

This is gonna be set up in my living room and when anyone sees it it would be bright as the sun all round. I rather be talking about how great and big the screen is than explaining to everyone how it comes to life if I shut all the blinds.

I am liking the sound of how black the Folkart is sounding. You are getting my hopes up. Do you have any poly that you can use for your mizes... who knows the poly may just increase the view cone lol.

This quest for black I have been on is beginning to make my soul feel black. I actually see black when I close my eyes!!!!!

oh...wait.
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Spoiler!

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