Checklist and questions before I start my build - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-31-2015, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Checklist and questions before I start my build

Hello everyone,

I'm about to start building my AT screen and wanted to ask a few questions to make sure I'm beginning right.

I just purchased a BenQ 1070. The seating will be 9 1/2 feet from the screen. The recommended THX screen size is an 85"diagonal. I was thinking of just making it an even 90 or 92". Having a "9" as the first digit just feels better.

From what I've read, for the 1070, white over silver spandex is the best combination.
Is that correct?

Also, I just want to confirm that these are the correct fabrics:

http://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/10921

http://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/795

I've seen some people using screen tight to secure the spandex on the back. The only advantage of this over staples is the ability to remove and switch out the spandex, right? It's not easier to use than staples, is it? I have a feeling once I build that screen, I most likely won't be swapping out the fabric anytime.

I've read that many DIYers on the forum use poplar wood, 1" X 4"s. Is this the best choice?

Also, when determining how high my screen will go, I should have the top of the screen even with the lens of the ceiling mounted projector, correct?

Thanks!
Dan
dftkell is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-31-2015, 01:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,196
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1539 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Your seating distance might warrant a larger screen which shouldn't be a problem..the average size used at 9.5ft would be a 100" 16:9screen.

White over silver is one of the most versatile combinations. It will be plenty bright for the projector at those sizes or even a bit larger but will give slightly deeper blacks than white over white..it's a good choice, especially if you may use some 3D occasionally.

Those look like the right fabrics. You could also use moleskin silver for the back layer (I believe it's a little cheaper sometimes), but using the milliskin for both shouldn't harm anything.

The screentight is better for repeated build/teardown, but staples are easy to use (arguably easier than screentight) and can even be safely removed without ruining the fabric if needed. They're also less expensive which never hurts.

Poplar is a great wood for being lightweight, rigid and resisting warping over time..it also happens to be budget friendly and easy to find.
1X4 wouldn't hurt, but a screen at or under 100"diagonal could probably get away with 1x3's since you'll be using a pair of center (more like 1/3-2/3 of the way) supports anyway.

It's best to try to have your eye's height land about 1/3-1/2 up from the screen's bottom..which will mean the screen will be roughly 20inches from the floor. This helps keep your neck comfortable by avoiding looking upward to the screen. The w1070's lens should be about 4inches above the screen..its lens-shift gives you a handful of leeway on height positioning.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
"A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
Ftoast is online now  
Old 03-31-2015, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Your seating distance might warrant a larger screen which shouldn't be a problem..the average size used at 9.5ft would be a 100" 16:9screen.

White over silver is one of the most versatile combinations. It will be plenty bright for the projector at those sizes or even a bit larger but will give slightly deeper blacks than white over white..it's a good choice, especially if you may use some 3D occasionally.

Those look like the right fabrics. You could also use moleskin silver for the back layer (I believe it's a little cheaper sometimes), but using the milliskin for both shouldn't harm anything.

The screentight is better for repeated build/teardown, but staples are easy to use (arguably easier than screentight) and can even be safely removed without ruining the fabric if needed. They're also less expensive which never hurts.

Poplar is a great wood for being lightweight, rigid and resisting warping over time..it also happens to be budget friendly and easy to find.
1X4 wouldn't hurt, but a screen at or under 100"diagonal could probably get away with 1x3's since you'll be using a pair of center (more like 1/3-2/3 of the way) supports anyway.

It's best to try to have your eye's height land about 1/3-1/2 up from the screen's bottom..which will mean the screen will be roughly 20inches from the floor. This helps keep your neck comfortable by avoiding looking upward to the screen. The w1070's lens should be about 4inches above the screen..its lens-shift gives you a handful of leeway on height positioning.
Thanks a lot. I'll consider the 100" screen. I've read a lot--probably too much--about what screen size to settle on. Some people say just go as big as you can. Other's comment that too big is problematic with trying to take it all in visually.

Because my ceilings are slanted on both front and back sides, I''ll measure how high a 100" screen would go and as a result, how high my projector would mount and if that would be within the proper throw. I think it will be.

Thanks!
dftkell is online now  
Old 03-31-2015, 02:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dreamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Walnut, CA, USA
Posts: 2,644
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 754 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by dftkell View Post
Hello everyone,

I'm about to start building my AT screen and wanted to ask a few questions to make sure I'm beginning right.

I just purchased a BenQ 1070. The seating will be 9 1/2 feet from the screen. The recommended THX screen size is an 85"diagonal. I was thinking of just making it an even 90 or 92". Having a "9" as the first digit just feels better.

From what I've read, for the 1070, white over silver spandex is the best combination.
Is that correct?

Also, I just want to confirm that these are the correct fabrics:

http://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/10921

http://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/795

I've seen some people using screen tight to secure the spandex on the back. The only advantage of this over staples is the ability to remove and switch out the spandex, right? It's not easier to use than staples, is it? I have a feeling once I build that screen, I most likely won't be swapping out the fabric anytime.

I've read that many DIYers on the forum use poplar wood, 1" X 4"s. Is this the best choice?

Also, when determining how high my screen will go, I should have the top of the screen even with the lens of the ceiling mounted projector, correct?

Thanks!
Dan
The other theoretical advantage (theoretical because I haven't heard of anyone actually needing to do it) to screen tight is that if the fabric gets soiled somehow, spandex is machine washable and the screen tight might make you more comfortable taking advantage of that washability. Of course, that requires additional planning for the black velvet border as well -- maybe attaching the border with mirror clips rather than nails.

You didn't mention a border, but if adding one, you need to decide whether it will go around the screen frame or on top of it. If on top, then the screen frame needs to be larger so you don't end up with a smaller viewing area than planned.

Will your L&R speakers be behind the screen ? If so, then that will partially dictate your screen width, even if you won't be watching that wide, because you don't want to end up with the wooden frame covering your speaker drivers. So the frame may be wider, with black spandex covering the sides where the speakers are. A 100" screen is less than 8' wide, but your speakers from a 9.5' viewing distance are likely 9' apart, right ?

And I would stay away from the moleskin if AT quality is important. Stick to miliskin for everything.

You don't mention whether you will be using a pocket jig to join the wood or metal "L" brackets. If you use the "L" brackets, I'd be leery of some of the narrow ones I've seen others use. They will hold the frame square, but will not do much to resist twisting. Not these which are only 1/2" wide http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded...5296/202034116
I think I might just use wide flat plates on the uprights to connect to the top and bottom http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-S...4?N=5yc1vZaqzs

*********************
Kirk Ellis
BenQ W1070 VuTec 122" Screen
Harmon Kardon AVR 247 Parasound L&R Amp
Psycoustic Mark III L&R Towers, Boston Center
Energy Take 5 Surrounds, HSU Research Sub

Last edited by dreamer; 03-31-2015 at 03:17 PM.
dreamer is offline  
Old 03-31-2015, 03:14 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Things to consider:

  • What is the drop distance between the top of the Flat Ceiling and the bottom edge of the sloped Ceiling over the screen
  • Be advised from one for whom making screens as big as the possibly can be is a religion....any size up to a 1:1 diagonal size to seating (eye) distance is perfectly fine.
  • Concentrate on getting the projector's lens as exactly centered as possible to what will be the center of the screen.
  • Minimize the throw distance to with 10% of the least distance allowable for the screen size chosen.
  • Accept the fact that although the W1070 has some Vertical Lens Shift, it is very minimal, so the Lens will need to be as close to the Top of the Screen as possible.
  • Be very meticulous as far as choosing your "Kiln Dried Clear Poplar. NO twists. NO Bows. NO bends.
  • Use 1x3s. Exterior Frame is 1x3 on edges. If you have a Table Saw, rip the interior 1x3 braces to 2" and use a minimum of 3, preferably 4.
  • Use Staples...unless you are a smoker. The location of your screen should help prevent accidents. If not, Screen Tite is an option but increases cost and design complexity on smaller screens.
  • DO NOT use Moleskin....at all...since your screen is planning to be used for acoustically transparent purposes.
  • Use a French Cleat mounting system
  • Make your Screen Trim as minimalistic as possible....2" wide would be best. Smaller screens look larger with Trim that is not overly wide.
  • Figure on adding an additional ring of 1x2s around the finished Screen to serve as a nailer of your screen trim. W/2" Trim you can barely overlap- a slightly larger frame's inside edges
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-01-2015, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
[quote][QUOTE=You didn't mention a border, but if adding one, you need to decide whether it will go around the screen frame or on top of it. If on top, then the screen frame needs to be larger so you don't end up with a smaller viewing area than planned.[/quote]

Yes, I was planning a boarder. From what I understand so far, the boarder would absorb any light that might "leak" off the edges of the screen. A boarder is recommended, right? Do most people use one? I hadn't thought about how it wraps or is applied yet. I assumed it would be a thin strip around the front facing part of the screen while wrapping around the side edges and then stapled down on the side edges. Is this the recommended way? Is there a good tutorial I could view?
[quote]
Quote:
Will your L&R speakers be behind the screen ? If so, then that will partially dictate your screen width, even if you won't be watching that wide, because you don't want to end up with the wooden frame covering your speaker drivers.
Yeah, I have thought about that. I've put so much time into building the subs, having the speakers custom built and measuring the FR that I wouldn't want to muck it up by having a wooden board in front of the speakers. I've attached a super-rough mockup of how I think the screen will look. The left and right speakers are in a slight arc with the center speaker so that all three speakers are equidistant from the main listening position. So the left and right speakers might be a little forward of the screen but not blocking the viewing/white area of the screen. Of course, once I get the screen up this will most likely be tweaked as the mock-up isn't exact by any means.


Quote:
So the frame may be wider, with black spandex covering the sides where the speakers are. A 100" screen is less than 8' wide, but your speakers from a 9.5' viewing distance are likely 9' apart, right ?
The speakers may be closer to 8 feet apart to keep them out from the walls. As you can see in my sig, there is a bit less room on one side of the windows than the other. But again, I'll adjust around the screen.

Quote:
And I would stay away from the moleskin if AT quality is important. Stick to miliskin for everything.
Gotcha. The links I posted were for the Spandex World white and silver spandex fabrics. Those are the correct ones, right?

Quote:
You don't mention whether you will be using a pocket jig to join the wood or metal "L" brackets. If you use the "L" brackets, I'd be leery of some of the narrow ones I've seen others use. They will hold the frame square, but will not do much to resist twisting. Not these which are only 1/2" wide http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded...5296/202034116
I think I might just use wide flat plates on the uprights to connect to the top and bottom http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-S...4?N=5yc1vZaqzs/QUOTE]
I assumed I would use the "L" brackets that most people seem to be using in the photos. I'd definitely get more robust ones. The trick seems to be getting larger, stronger brackets but still having room to staple. I looked at one build where the guy used floor joist braces for the corners and it looked like a good idea. I've attached a pic. Also, my brother has a great workshop and builds a lot. I have no idea what a pocket jig is but he will for sure. So if that's the way to go, he can help me do it for sure.

Thanks!
Dan
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	step-7.jpg
Views:	169
Size:	62.3 KB
ID:	639257  

Last edited by dftkell; 04-01-2015 at 07:26 AM.
dftkell is online now  
Old 04-01-2015, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
[quote=MississippiMan;33105025]Things to consider:

  • Quote:
    What is the drop distance between the top of the Flat Ceiling and the bottom edge of the sloped Ceiling over the screen
I'm not sure. I will check this weekend. (I'm only there on weekends.) I know the wall the TV is currently mounted on--the wall behind the screen--is 6' 2". The ceiling slopes higher as it gets closer to my couch. Then it goes straight up for about two feet. Then it begins to slope down to the couch. I'm attaching a photo if that helps. I think this is what you're asking?

  • Quote:
    Be advised from one for whom making screens as big as the possibly can be is a religion....any size up to a 1:1 diagonal size to seating (eye) distance is perfectly fine.
Does that mean a 100" diagonal would equate to a seating distance 100" (8'3") away? So if I'm 114" away (my 9'6") then I should build a 114" diagonal screen?

  • Quote:
    Concentrate on getting the projector's lens as exactly centered as possible to what will be the center of the screen.
Gotcha. Would you recommend mounting the projector first and then putting up the screen and getting it right? Or vice versa? It's a chicken and the egg question.

  • Quote:
    Minimize the throw distance to with 10% of the least distance allowable for the screen size chosen.
Okay. My only caveat to that would be that if I position closer to the farther allowed throw distance (further away from the screen) this would put the projector directly overhead. If I position closer to the screen within the allowable distance, I would see the projector overhead as it would be between me and the screen. Either is a compromise I guess. Any thoughts?

  • Quote:
    Accept the fact that although the W1070 has some Vertical Lens Shift, it is very minimal, so the Lens will need to be as close to the Top of the Screen as possible.
Okay, great.

  • Be very meticulous as far as choosing your "Kiln Dried Clear Poplar. NO twists. NO Bows. NO bends.
Great. Maybe I'll bring my bro since he's great with that stuff.

Quote:
Use 1x3s. Exterior Frame is 1x3 on edges. If you have a Table Saw, rip the interior 1x3 braces to 2" and use a minimum of 3, preferably 4.
Check.

Quote:
Use Staples...unless you are a smoker. The location of your screen should help prevent accidents. If not, Screen Tite is an option but increases cost and design complexity on smaller screens.
Great. That will be easier than Screen Tight.

Quote:
DO NOT use Moleskin....at all...since your screen is planning to be used for acoustically transparent purposes.
Okay
  • Quote:
    Use a French Cleat mounting system
My plan was to hang the frame from wires and float it. Similar to another build I saw. I'm attaching a pic. If my screen is small enough that I can hinge it and flip it up to the ceiling I will. But from what I've measured, it won't be possible without it hitting the other sloped ceiling.

  • Quote:
    Make your Screen Trim as minimalistic as possible....2" wide would be best. Smaller screens look larger with Trim that is not overly wide.
Do I also do the sides of the screen as well as the front? Do I staple or glue the trim?

  • Quote:
    Figure on adding an additional ring of 1x2s around the finished Screen to serve as a nailer of your screen trim. W/2" Trim you can barely overlap- a slightly larger frame's inside edges
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Do you mean build the screen without any velvet boarder and then attach another frame of 1X2's around the screen that are covered in velvet?


Thanks!
Dan
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ceiling.jpg
Views:	113
Size:	49.0 KB
ID:	639233   Click image for larger version

Name:	Wire hanging.jpg
Views:	657
Size:	604.7 KB
ID:	639249  
dftkell is online now  
Old 04-01-2015, 09:57 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Sounds to me like you could use a complete set of instructions from start to finish.

That said, I will look at all your replies and put forth a plan in a specific order that should address every point in the order best addressed.

As for now I will make a few comments as well as ask for some additional info as well.

  1. What is the measurement of the space between the Window casings
  2. A hanging screen will allow you to place the Screen higher, but such a application requires a perfect hang, and all too often even a slight disturbance in the air will cause the screen to move. You will not have to go too far up into the sloped area to acquire 3-4" of additional Screen height.
  3. 100" wide x 56" high = 114" diagonal. If you sit at 9'-5" your 113" away. That's going to be just fine
  4. Projector Lens can be placed at 12'. That is 2.4' behind you. With a Screen offering only 0.8 gain you'll still get 17 foot lambert. Not crazy bright...not dim either.
  5. The Spandex is stretched over the outside edges of the Frame and stapled to the sides. Placing 1x 2s around the outside edges covers the staples and trimmed Spandex, and if the leading forward edge of the 1x2 ring is flush the the front edge of the Frame, you have a full .5" of "nailer" and .75" of the Frame to attach your Screen Trim (.5" x 2.5" MDF wrapped in Black velvet)
  6. A side benefit is that the extra 2x3s will further stiffen the Frame, as will the frontal attached Trim.

Determining the size screen you want is 1st up, as that dictates the measurement and build of the frame
PJ placement seems to be less of an issue, and the amount of drop from the Ceiling will be less the higher up the screen goes. Even so, the ceiling looks to really zoom upwards, so expect a fairly long Drop. Than means using a good mount that can accommodate a hollow Drop Pole

You don't really want a 56" tall screen to be much if any higher off the floor than 32". Sitting a 9.5" from a 114" screen makes for a very good set-up.

Unless you sit on the Floor..
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-01-2015, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Sounds to me like you could use a complete set of instructions from start to finish.
That would be greatly appreciated. I want to have a good plan before I start building.

Quote:
That said, I will look at all your replies and put forth a plan in a specific order that should address every point in the order best addressed.
Thank you.

Quote:
As for now I will make a few comments as well as ask for some additional info as well.

[LIST=1][*]What is the measurement of the space between the Window casings
The front wall where the TV hangs is 74" high. The windows are 63" apart.

If an AT screen is hanging about 4" in front of the subwoofer with center speaker on it--so about 28" into the room from the front wall--then the ceiling at that point would be about 7'10" high.

I originally thought of putting in an electric, tab tensioned screen mounted on the ceiling that would come down to just above the center channel when lowered. (That's the pic I attached with the hanging sheet.) I could do a 88" or 92" screen in that situation. It would be high though since the bottom would be sitting above the center channel. I would definitely be looking up. So I thought hanging an AT screen centered in front of the center channel, like in my rough comp in my earlier post, might work.


Quote:
[*]A hanging screen will allow you to place the Screen higher, but such a application requires a perfect hang, and all too often even a slight disturbance in the air will cause the screen to move. You will not have to go too far up into the sloped area to acquire 3-4" of additional Screen height.
The build that gave me the idea for wires was this one:

http://www.projectionscreen.net/buil...g-first-build/

They secured the screen at four points--two to the ceiling and two to the floor.

I was considering it because when I have the screen out in front of the subwoofer and center channel, the ceiling is getting higher. I was considering hanging it so that I could get it lower down and have it centered vertically with my eyeline.

But if you don't think this is the way to go, I will take your advice. I'm open to any and all suggestions.

Quote:
[*]Projector Lens can be placed at 12'. That is 2.4' behind you. With a Screen offering only 0.8 gain you'll still get 17 foot lambert. Not crazy bright...not dim either.
That's part of the room's problems. Past 10.5 feet or so is where the skylight begins. The projector can get back about 10 feet and a few inches before the skylight. (Pics of what I'm talking about in my sig.)

I'm happy to supply whatever more information you need. I'll be there Saturday and I can take more pictures and measurements if that helps.

Thanks MM.
Dan
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	2p.jpg
Views:	162
Size:	143.4 KB
ID:	641057   Click image for larger version

Name:	1p.jpg
Views:	171
Size:	150.8 KB
ID:	641065   Click image for larger version

Name:	L1010761.jpg
Views:	91
Size:	31.8 KB
ID:	641073   Click image for larger version

Name:	L1010760.jpg
Views:	120
Size:	24.8 KB
ID:	641089   Click image for larger version

Name:	L1010758.jpg
Views:	146
Size:	38.3 KB
ID:	641097  

dftkell is online now  
Old 04-02-2015, 01:24 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
One of your biggest issues of all it the desire to have a AT screen that hangs over two Windows. You speak of the issue of having a Skylight in the room, so that suggests daytime viewing will be on the ticket. Well with a AT screen those rear windows will have to be completely blacked out, because even with using a Black Spandex rear layer, you can expect some degree of light bleed through the screen during Daylight hours.

So that means having opaque Curtains that extend beyond the Window casing, and Interior Blinds that snug up to the inside edges. You might want to consider a Curtains whose sides retract in toward the Center. (...actually you "should" consider the latter...)

Eliminating the issue of the light intrusion behind the screen will leave you only having to deal with the ambient light filling the room from the Skylight. And that itself will be enough of an issue. So screen size matters, as does Throw distance. Honestly...if your planning to watch much content during the day, your situation calls for more lumen horsepower than the W1070 can provide, but as to if that's a possible aspect to consider....?

Since your obviously not planning to keep the TV in place, and hanging a screen that does not collapse or retract is desired, you might as wel consider the screen being supported by two solid, thin aluminum poles painted Black. Wires down to the Floor will always be in the way of the Windows and moving around the edges of the screen. If you want a "Floater: then direct attachment at the top with rigid vertical support at the sides (...but behind...) will look much more refined.

It can be done without you seeing any attachment up top, with the Screen set forward of the slope a few inches.

But ya know...looking at your pictures make me think a suspended Screen set out from the wall instead of hanging from the ceiling might serve the entire equation better. There is still the issues with the rear slope over the Seating that has that huge Skylight as well as how high you must hang the Screen as relates to the PJ's position, and the lack of adjust-ability of the W1070. If this is a project based around sheer budget-consciousness, that is / would be only one concern. Logistics and actual installation concerns are another. Sometimes the difference between the two cannot be effectively resolved. Your room is a toughie, but do-able with the right plan. Wrong plan...and it becomes a almost certain waste of time and effort.

We only touched upon the PJ placement and it's height, but honestly....a PJ like the W1070 will have to be placed very low....as in about 7.5' at most if that. Probably no more than 7'. I'm not at all sure your going to be happy with that no matter what, and looking at your seating tucked back in that cubbyhole, and the rear slope/skylight, I'm at a loss as far as how your going to hang any PJ without using a cantilevered Mount and not having the PJ directly overhead. You don't have any "Flat" ceiling to work with. Have you considered how you will get the Electrical up to the PJ location...let alone route the HDMI? You have access to the rear crawl space...but the Skylight blocks the direct route upwards to the most likely mounting position for the PJ of choice.

I would have suggested a different projector for certain, such as a Epson 3600 w/wireless HDMI. While that unit would be almost 2x as much as the W1070, the certainty of being able to do what you need to do and do it far more easily and with more certainty of success makes it a far more reasonable spend.

Why does it seem that people always buy a PJ first without asking about, or realizing the limitations of their build? And then people like me have to play the Devil's advocate and tell them how they should have asked first, purchased later. Bluntly put, if you can even begin to consider it...send the W1070 back.

So................what's the verdict as far as those windows?
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-02-2015, 10:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,196
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1539 Post(s)
Liked: 497
If returning the PJ is a likely possibility, between the matte screen and the difficult ceiling, would a short-throw PJ on a low table about 6ft back from the screen be an alternative? It'd still be less than half the price of that Epson if budget is a concern.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
"A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
Ftoast is online now  
Old 04-02-2015, 10:30 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
If returning the PJ is a likely possibility, between the matte screen and the difficult ceiling, would a short-throw PJ on a low table about 6ft back from the screen be an alternative? It'd still be less than half the price of that Epson if budget is a concern.
Actually, all that would be gained is the easier running of the Elect. / HDMI Cordage and the issue of a Ceiling Mount location becoming moot.

Foot Lambert figures remain the same on all scenarios.

Now if instead the Op opts to move into a PJ with some real lumen Output.....
http://www.projectorcentral.com/ViewSonic-PJD7820HD.htm

............then everything changes for the better. 144" at a 13.6" Throw....45 fl !

Low lamp? (6000 hrs) with only a 18% decrease in brightness
  • 3 Year warranty
  • 6 Segment Color Wheel
  • 3D? Still very much significantly bright
  • 15000:1 contrast & a DLP.
  • No lens shift...but the BenQ's is so minimal it's not really an issue.
  • The Projector is very small...about the size footprint of a 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper
  • Exhaust is out the Front, so it's heat and sound is directed away from the viewer.
  • And wadda ya know...it cost less than a W1070!
Might be the OPs best possible solution.

Considering the need to use Key Stone adjustment even with the W1070 / 75 units, pre-mounting a PJ like the Viewsonic would be best and then placing the Screen exactly where the image falls.
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-02-2015, 11:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,196
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1539 Post(s)
Liked: 497
So cord-running and mounting becomes a non-issue with the short-throw..that's good.

The viewsonic sports an impressive warranty, but that's about it. It uses a business PJ colorwheel that'll make spreadsheets plenty bright but color-lumens will be less than half that of the Benq's. The viewsonic also manages to be noticeably loud despite using a dimmer lamp than the Benq. Contrast (in the dark) should look similar enough, but everything else about picture quality from accuracy to brightness uniformity will fall quite a bit shorter with the viewsonic. I'm also pretty sure all of these exhaust out the front.

That skylight (if left uncovered) will be enough to destroy any image during the day, I don't believe giving up half the color-brightness and PQ in order to gain some added white is going to be enough to fix it. I doubt there's any consumer projector bright enough to fight it well. It's also in the perfect spot to ruin what a specialty/light-rejecting screen might do to help..so you'll either have to help dim the light coming through or likely be forced to wait for nights or clouds in order to really enjoy a projector in that room.
If you want brute lumens and can handle the noise, the Epson 3000 has a lamp-boost mode that gets a bit brighter than most including the Benq, but it's quite loud and still unlikely to be enough brightness to matter.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
"A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
Ftoast is online now  
Old 04-02-2015, 11:33 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
So cord-running and mounting becomes a non-issue with the short-throw..that's good.
But the shortest distance the ST PJ can be set at 7'. And the Power / HDMI cords will have to be laid out over that stretch. Not so good.

Quote:
The viewsonic sports an impressive warranty, but that's about it. It uses a business PJ colorwheel that'll make spreadsheets plenty bright but color-lumens will be less than half that of the Benq's. The viewsonic also manages to be noticeably loud despite using a dimmer lamp than the Benq. Contrast (in the dark) should look similar enough, but everything else about picture quality from accuracy to brightness uniformity will fall quite a bit shorter with the viewsonic. I'm also pretty sure all of these exhaust out the front.
With the OP needing a Grey screen, white Light levels will be important. Also, wherever you read that the BenQ's 2000 lumen lamp is more than 100% brighter than the Viewsonic's 3000 lumen lamp, you should steer far away from that source because they are smokin' some strange stuff. I have used both the 3000 and 3500 lumen Viewsonic versions (...albeit on nice. dark SF screens...) as well as the W1070, and I can attest that the BenQ is nowhere near as bright nor produces the level of Blacks. That's a determination made from actual experience...not subjective reading of oddly stated figures.

Quote:
That skylight (if left uncovered) will be enough to destroy any image during the day, I don't believe giving up half the color-brightness and PQ in order to gain some added white is going to be enough to fix it. I doubt there's any consumer projector bright enough to fight it well. It's also in the perfect spot to ruin what a specialty/light-rejecting screen might do to help..so you'll either have to help dim the light coming through or likely be forced to wait for nights or clouds in order to really enjoy a projector in that room.
If you want brute lumens and can handle the noise, the Epson 3000 has a lamp-boost mode that gets a bit brighter than most including the Benq, but it's quite loud and still unlikely to be enough brightness to matter.
Going forward, please link to the Reviews where you garner such figures. That would go a long ways toward helping to justify...or discount what is offered up.

That request is made with a "please" attached.
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-02-2015, 12:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,196
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1539 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Brightness measurements and noise comments I tend to grab from ProjectorCentral and ProjectorReviews (that's what I used here).
Contrast is harder to find on average..those I have to get from Krain reviews as well as a few others from across the big waters, I think CNET also had some for a while as well as a couple older sites. Then it's a simple process of grouping the results and checking for outliers (very rare, but results in neat discoveries).

The business colorwheel and color-lumen comments are mirrored from the ProjectorCentral review attached to your link.

ProjectorCentral:
(The viewsonic)
"- Its brightness uniformity of 67% may be detectable on a black-and white spreadsheet, but it is much less noticeable when viewing video material.
- While brightness is reduced by about 50%, you will find that flesh tones are more realistic than with Brilliant Color turned on.
- The PJD7820HD has a six-segment RGBCYW colorwheel. The "W" stands for White, and white segments in DLP colorwheels boost white light output but not color light output, leading to an unbalanced picture with super-bright highlights and dull colors. White segments can also increase the appearance of color separation artifacts.
- Eco mode, fan noise is very low, but in normal mode, it is loud enough to be a distraction.
It can even be loud enough to overwhelm the PJD7820HD's internal speaker during quiet moments."
(I would bet the high noise-level is most likely due to the extra-small case)
The viewsonic also pairs the low color-lumen business wheel with a dimmer lamp compared to the Benq (210w VS 240w) which is typical of many low-priced business projectors because it's an easy way to lower the build cost.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
"A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 04-02-2015 at 12:52 PM.
Ftoast is online now  
Old 04-02-2015, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
One of your biggest issues of all it the desire to have a AT screen that hangs over two Windows. You speak of the issue of having a Skylight in the room, so that suggests daytime viewing will be on the ticket. Well with a AT screen those rear windows will have to be completely blacked out, because even with using a Black Spandex rear layer, you can expect some degree of light bleed through the screen during Daylight hours.
Sorry if that was confusing. I plan on viewing at night. The room gets dark at night even with those solar shades on the front windows. My issue with the skylight wasn't about having light in the room, it was that the projector can't go much further back than 10' because that's where the skylight begins. Unless I suction-cup the projector to the glass...probably not a good idea.

But again, this is for nighttime viewing only. So no worries about daytime light.

It would be ideal if the windows weren't permanently blocked off. Dreamer did a nice job with his DIY screen that hinges and allows it to flip up out of the way. But from my initial measurements, I don't think that type of scenario is possible. Unless I do a smaller screen that mounts right up against the sloped ceiling. But I realize everything is a trade off with this room.


An electric tab-tensioned, acoustically transparent screen would solve every problem--keeping the TV, not blocking view from windows when not being used, cleaning up the look of the room when not being used, having the center channel behind the center of the screen instead of below, etc. The trade-off here is financial. I haven't researched them but I'm guessing that would be very pricey.

Quote:
Since your obviously not planning to keep the TV in place


I'd love to if possible. But my goal is a great big screen setup. The TV can move to another room if need be.


Quote:
, and hanging a screen that does not collapse or retract is desired,


Totally open to either. I think it would have to be the type of screen I mentioned above though, as opposed to DIY. I could be open to that and spend the money. I thought I could come up with a great solution that would be less expensive though. Plus I had fun building my subs so I thought this would be fun. Now it's becoming a headache though as every solution I come up with is met with a problem.


Quote:
you might as well consider the screen being supported by two solid, thin aluminum poles painted Black. Wires down to the Floor will always be in the way of the Windows and moving around the edges of the screen. If you want a "Floater: then direct attachment at the top with rigid vertical support at the sides (...but behind...) will look much more refined. It can be done without you seeing any attachment up top, with the Screen set forward of the slope a few inches.


That could be cool.

Quote:
But ya know...looking at your pictures make me think a suspended Screen set out from the wall instead of hanging from the ceiling might serve the entire equation better. There is still the issues with the rear slope over the Seating that has that huge Skylight as well as how high you must hang the Screen as relates to the PJ's position, and the lack of adjust-ability of the W1070. If this is a project based around sheer budget-consciousness, that is / would be only one concern. Logistics and actual installation concerns are another. Sometimes the difference between the two cannot be effectively resolved. Your room is a toughie, but do-able with the right plan. Wrong plan...and it becomes a almost certain waste of time and effort.
I would like to solve the logistics and if the budget increases, that's fine.

Quote:
We only touched upon the PJ placement and it's height, but honestly....a PJ like the W1070 will have to be placed very low....as in about 7.5' at most if that. Probably no more than 7'. I'm not at all sure your going to be happy with that no matter what, and looking at your seating tucked back in that cubbyhole, and the rear slope/skylight, I'm at a loss as far as how your going to hang any PJ without using a cantilevered Mount and not having the PJ directly overhead.

Yes, the projector would be directly overhead. So let's figure the top of my head seated is 40" (this is just a guess), and the projector would be around 7'2" above the floor (again, a guess). That puts the projector about 42" above the top of my head, give or take.

Do you think that is too close? If you do, that's a deal breaker because there's not other way or place to put it. Unless it's even forward a bit more and then I see it as well. I would then just upgrade my TV.

[/quote]
Quote:
You don't have any "Flat" ceiling to work with. Have you considered how you will get the Electrical up to the PJ location...let alone route the HDMI? You have access to the rear crawl space...but the Skylight blocks the direct route upwards to the most likely mounting position for the PJ of choice.


This room is a loft above my garage. I have already run all of the speaker wires and subwoofer cables on both sides of the room through the floors, into the garage, and into the adjacent bedroom. So for the projector I would do the same with the HDMI cable. I would simply use some cord management strips to neatly run the HDMI and power cable and it's extension cord I would have to use, around the skylight and down the wall to the outlet and the floor.


Quote:
I would have suggested a different projector for certain, such as a Epson 3600 w/wireless HDMI. While that unit would be almost 2x as much as the W1070, the certainty of being able to do what you need to do and do it far more easily and with more certainty of success makes it a far more reasonable spend.
Wireless HDMI at least isn't necessary as I will run the HDMI through the floor and into the garage to my receiver.

I purchased the Epson from Amazon a little over a week ago for a great price while the inventory was running down. Before the purchase, I spoke with Amazon to confirm that I could return it for a full refund if I wasn't happy. I would not have purchased it without confirming that.


[/quote]
Quote:
Why does it seem that people always buy a PJ first without asking about, or realizing the limitations of their build?


I didn't. I opened up two different threads with questions about projectors and screen sizes in the under $3,000 category. I asked many questions. The 1070 was brought up many times. I then did my own research and measured my room several times, hanging strings from the ceiling so my measurements from front to back were precise. I read countless threads about projectors and builds by other people. From everything I gathered, and the size and oddness of my room, the 1070 was the answer. I looked at both regular and short throw scenarios and decided that was the one based on all my research and feedback. And then it went on sale and I pulled the trigger. So this wasn't just me surfing the web one night with a beer in my hand and suddenly thinking, "Hey, my TV is a little small. A projector would be cool. And look, there's one on sale!"


Quote:
And then people like me have to play the Devil's advocate and tell them how they should have asked first, purchased later. Bluntly put, if you can even begin to consider it...send the W1070 back.


I did ask about projectors. Just not in the DIY screen forum. I asked in the projector forum. Returning it is no problem.






Last edited by dftkell; 04-02-2015 at 01:45 PM.
dftkell is online now  
Old 04-02-2015, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
If returning the PJ is a likely possibility, between the matte screen and the difficult ceiling, would a short-throw PJ on a low table about 6ft back from the screen be an alternative? It'd still be less than half the price of that Epson if budget is a concern.
Unfortunately, it's not a solution as the area between the couch and tv is where people walk through the room to get to the adjacent bedroom. (The closed door you see in the pic.) So I'd have to be setting it up to use it and then removing it when done each time. Thanks though.
dftkell is online now  
Old 04-02-2015, 02:05 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Hey....did you make a typo? You said "Epson" but in your first post and the one just above you stated a W1070.

Don't worry though...typos are running amok today.

And my comments about people not checking / asking first was just my usual lament about having to solve problems after the fact, most of which would not exist if somehow every aspect of an installation was correctly taken into consideration. I hate being a spoiler...it doesn't always sit well with some.
Your application is chock full of concerns and considerations, so it was only natural to assume that less, not more thought had gone into the PJ selection prior to posting here on this Forum.

We all take pride on here in gelling together a wide variety of advice, centered primarily on DIY Screens, but not restricted to that.

I appreciate that you did in fact do your homework. Not certain though that the decision was the right one. I might have determined a Epson 8350 with it's extraordinary Throw range, really extensive Lens Shift, more than adequate Brightness and Contrast, and crazy low Lamp costs would have been a real contender. No 3D though.

The Epson 3500 is another valid example of a PJ that would really reduce your issue management. But yeah...it does cost more.

What changes things for the better is the knowledge that your viewing will be 95% at night. (...but once you do get "The Big Picture" your sure to want to stretch that schedule out somewhat...)

So in an effort to extend a hope to this equation, take a gander at these screen options.

Straight up Motorized AT:
http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-...jection+screen

Tab Tensioned AT
http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-...jection+screen

I'll tell ya what, the Tab Tensioned AT Screen just above comes in at a price I would not have expected, and considering what it might mean to your entire equation.....
..........could actually be a no-brain'er.
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-03-2015, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Hey....did you make a typo? You said "Epson" but in your first post and the one just above you stated a W1070.

Oh yeah, I meant to type W1070.


Quote:
I appreciate that you did in fact do your homework. Not certain though that the decision was the right one.
When I comes to speakers and audio, I'm fairly well versed. And I take the time to properly calibrate my plasmas--at least with calibration discs. But when it comes to big screen projection, I'm definitely in uncharted waters. Throw in a tricky room to boot and it's been confusing.

Quote:
I might have determined a Epson 8350 with it's extraordinary Throw range, really extensive Lens Shift, more than adequate Brightness and Contrast, and crazy low Lamp costs would have been a real contender. No 3D though.
I don't really care about 3D, so that's not a deal breaker. I'm wondering though why the better throw range of the Epson would make a difference though. I can't go that much further back than the 1070 can because the skylight is there. It seems like that is where the Epson has the advantage--in being able to be positioned further back, in the case of say, a 100" screen for instance. But again, I'm sure I'm missing something here...

Quote:
The Epson 3500 is another valid example of a PJ that would really reduce your issue management. But yeah...it does cost more.
The cost is okay.

Quote:
So in an effort to extend a hope to this equation, take a gander at these screen options.

Straight up Motorized AT:
http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-...jection+screen

Tab Tensioned AT
http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-...jection+screen

I'll tell ya what, the Tab Tensioned AT Screen just above comes in at a price I would not have expected, and considering what it might mean to your entire equation.....
..........could actually be a no-brain'er.
Yup. After all this, I'm thinking the same thing. Both of your links were for the Tab Tensioned AT screen. It looks nice but there are no user reviews. I've looked up other tab-tensioned Elites and the reviews are mixed, some people saying the screen still curls up eventually. Have you had any experience with these?

I also saw this non-tab tensioned one for an insane price and mostly good reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-...K6QV2YVCME18F8

Will these screens--both of the above--be as acoustically transparent as spandex? I know spandex can handle 4K, I'm guessing these can't. But if these are my solution, that's okay.

Have you heard of moire problems with these screens?

And if these questions are better suited for the non-diy screen forum, I'll post them there.

Thanks
Dan

dftkell is online now  
Old 04-03-2015, 12:31 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Well..it used to was we steadfastly refused to discuss Mfg Screen options on DIY Screens. There is actually a rule against doing so.

So it is never something suggested off hand or 1st up.

But in cases like yours where there would seem to be no other really practical solution, I or anybody would be remiss in not pointing out all the Pros & Cons of what is available to chose from.

It's obvious the best Mfg choices come in at a price point much stiffer than DIY.

................and as far as a complete absence of the possibility of seeing Morie, there is no AT screen out there that can claim an absolute "ain't no chance" stance.

But the diagonal weave screens are supposedly far less likely to show Morie.

As far as Tab Tensioned screens curling....that is something that should be easily adjusted out. Funny how for some, the need to do such "out of the box" amounts to the screen itself being defective. Still, as in any such Mfg product, you could, and probably would get lucky. Or you just might have 'ol man Murphy move in and sit beside you while watching.

Shoot, even with a raft of glowing reviews, you could be the exception.

I have had standard Elite screens at sizes between 110" up to 135" diagonal that I have applied paint to that never curled up or curled at the edges ven after 4-5+ years of "Up-Down" cycles. But that's me and I simply won't have it. Others have such issues with standard screens right out of the box.

A Tab Tensioned screen from a major Mfg should be a much safer bet. But then again people get flattened even after looking both ways at a corner crossing. So really, no one on this DIY Forum or over on Screens can give you any absolutes. Checking Return Policies is a good back up, and buying via Amazon Prime is among the safest bet you can make.

BTW, I saw a 120" Elite Non-Tab Tensioned like the one you posted for $469.00, and it should have been the 1st link but somehow I duplicated the TT-AT link.

Lastly, Spandex w/2 layers of Milliskin equaled and even surpassed the AT performance of the most expensive Mfg. AT Screens. And you can well believe a few of the Sellers of such screens were NOT happy with us for relating such. Not only that, but since then there is at least 3-4 EBay sellers selling Spandex Screen Kits. Entrepreneurial types have always taken our good ideas and tried to profit from them. Even a few actual Mfg have caught drift of DIY trends and have adjusted their plans accordingly. For instance, the drive toward making Family Room Projection more a mainstream thing by improving IQ went hand in glove with dropping PJ prices, but mfg screens lagged far behind as far as delivering decent imagery under ambient light conditions. DIY Screens took up that slack way back as far as 2004.

But back to your situation. I suggest you go with a Retractable....the best you can justify.

The Epsons have a very wide range of throw, so that means they can also produce a sizable image "up close". The 8350 can give you 100" from as close as 10', or anywhere to as far back as 20', and with it's super range of Vertical Lens shift, it can be mounted a LOT higher up than a BenQ. It also can be mounted to one side of "Screen center" because it has Horizontal Lens shift* so all in all it's a dream to easily instal. The same things apply for the 3600e, only it adds more Lumen output, Super Resolution, Wireless HDMI and 3D to the pot. Yum.
*Note: The more "Shift" you use in one direction, the less you have in another...

So as far as any of the affordable AT screens, Tab Tensioned or not...as long as they state "Diagonal Weave" tech you should have at least better than a 90-10 chance of success. Using a Projector better suited to your installation peculiarities will just increase your chances of nailing down a great set-up all the more.
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
First of all, thanks to everyone for the information so far. MM, you've spent a lot of time posting here and it's appreciated.

I will be back in the garage loft tonight. The BenQ is there. Before I package it back up and send it back to Amazon, I'm going to take several more detailed pictures of the room. I'll put the projector on a ladder to show what kind of height and distance I can get off the rear wall and I think it will give a much better idea of what I'm talking about. Plus I'll take pictures of a tarp up with blue tape that I have in the front of the room. When I post again, hopefully I can have a good plan about equipment based on your recommendations Miss-Man.

Also, I am 100% open to whatever projector will work. MM, you mentioned the Epson and that is fine with me. After I post a few more pics with some more measurements, if you say that's the one, I'm in. I'll budget around $2,000 for the projector. Of course, cheaper is better. But I look at this as a long term installment.

If it's okay to post this, MM here is a screen I found on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-.../dp/B00QHFE4QI

It is a new Elite model with a new, upgraded AT fabric which supports 4K. (I know I don't need 4K right now and the projector won't support it. Just mentioning it though.) It's an electric, non-tab tensioned. But the price is very good. And I'm inclined to roll the dice. I'm still open to the other Elite you posted earlier with the Tab-Tension. My only reservation is that the fabric used--AcoustiPro2--has been reviewed by some people on Amazon as having moire. I could certainly get it and maybe not have that problem since a lot of other people don't seem to though. So that trade off is, better fabric and non-tension VS older fabric and tension. I'm still keeping options open here.

Thanks again. I'll most likely post Sunday evening or Monday.

Dan
dftkell is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 10:18 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Dan,

I look forward to your post.

Personally speaking, and based on my own experience dealing with screen sizes, people's expectations and the vaunted "Wow" factor, and based on your statements that viewing will be done primarily at night...I'd get the 125" version in a heartbeat. It's Prime purchase...so your risk for 30 days in Zero

At that size you could have an available throw distance between 10' 6' and 13' with the BenQ w1075 vs 100" @ 8' 6" to 10' 3"

With the 100"er version factored in the Epson goes down to 10'. How that Throw distance factors in as far as available depth between Screen and Lens + PJ case (12.6") is still an uncertainty.

Choosing the Epson 3600e gets you the Wireless HDMI, and I can easily show you how to run 110 ac up close enough to the PJ's location that all you should have to deal with showing is 12" to16" of cordage. And having all that lens shift eliminates having to put the BenQ down in your lap.

Of course, that Slope is the main obstacle, and any screen size / throw distance / height placement is going to be limited by the maximum distance available from the Screen's surface to the rear Slope, less the depth of the PJ and the height the PJ must be placed. Looking at the image of your seating, it's not beyond consideration to place the PJat the extreme rear, just below the junction of the Knee Wall and Slope...but of course you would cut the projected beam when rising from the seats.

That said, there is the consideration to use a Short Throw PJ mounted up front....but you'd see that for sure and if that would spoil things for you then that's a non-starter.

And then...there is choosing a smaller screen
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 12:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,196
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1539 Post(s)
Liked: 497
If wireless is a big positive for this room, there's a $200 universal option that received a lot of praise. Instead of spending $1800+ on the 3600 for its additional wireless and built-in speakers, you could now have a wireless 3000 or 8345 (which will still allow mounting high and/or far back) or a wireless w1070 if you decide mounting closer and about 6-7ft high works out. It'll be a bit more visible than the built-in version, but costs $500-900 less.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/dvdo-air3c-review.htm

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
"A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 04-04-2015 at 12:52 PM.
Ftoast is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 01:15 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Actually that's a crappy choice. 30' transmission is extremely poor. 100' sending is the delfacto standard today, with fully 1/2 that through walls and/or cabinets.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...A3OI2CVBA9DB25

The BenQs also have a dedicated option available (....but that is still limited to approx. 60') :
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

...........although the OP might want to use the price difference to upgrade to a 1075 of he sticks to a BenQ

Also, the 3500 has more lumen output, (2500) + that ol' Lens Shift and one cannot discount the availability of the Super Resolution feature missing on the 3000

But ya gotta also take into account that having the wireless HDMI Receiver built into the PJ is an important factor when mounting such inverted....and probably worth the extra $100.00 or so beyond adding a outboard unit onto a 3000
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 02:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,196
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1539 Post(s)
Liked: 497
The device you linked occasionally requires the user to re-link using a button on both receiver and sender (the one on/near the projector The one I linked is fine on an inverted projector and was shown to have at least 50ft of range (with line-of-site) though it's unusable if sender/receiver are placed in two different closed rooms.

About the 3000 Vs the 3500/3600, is having an extra false sharpening and the same measured brightness and contrast (despite anufacturers claims that the 3000/3500/3600 are all different) worth $300-600? That's up to the individual I suppose..
With the stated viewing environment (dark) and screen-size, the 8345 would still provide plenty of brightness and an even higher amount of mounting flexibility for a much lower price as well..though it does lose 3D.

Sadly the 8345/3000-series are about all there is for inexpensive options featuring a serious amount of lens-shift for mounting a few extra feet above the screen's top.

By the time you start getting close to the $1700-2000 spot, it's hard to resist thinking that this is ae8000/hw40/5025ub money that deserves a dark-colored, dedicated room to show off that $1700-2000 contrast and picture quality. Spending that kind of money for the Epson 3000's twin sister with an extra sharpness control and built-in wireless and the same picture-quality that can be had for $650-850..it seems wasteful.

The price difference between adding a universal wireless to the 3000 and buying the 3600e isn't $100, it's $400.
If 3D is a non-issue, the 8345+wireless saves $700.
If mounting at about 7ft high is acceptable, the w1070+wireless saves $900.
That's a lot of money that could be put toward a TT AT screen. ..and the bluray collection.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
"A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 04-04-2015 at 08:25 PM.
Ftoast is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 06:55 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
I went directly to the link you provided and it was concerning this: DVDO AIR3C

The 50' "test" was simply that, and if you want to trust a test where the Mfg stated range was exceeded...that's a personal choice I think you would be reccomending against, not the opposite. The "almost" 50' test was strictly line -of-sight, and the second test was at a distance of only 15' in a Rack. The last test was at the stated Mfg distance of 10 meters (30') in a around a corner. Although it worked, they qualified the results by stating the Transmitter bounced the signal off a wall.

Then the3 Reviewer went on to say "Do Not Expect it to work through walls...it WILL not." pretty final, that.

As far as the Epsons, your basing all of your disagreement on supposed false claims by the Mfg.that you have no idea are or are not false. That amounts to suggesting to the OP that they are in fact false and going further to suggest they would be poor choices.

........and overstating the cost difference by still referencing the BenQ by comparison, a PJ that will compromise a decent installation by requiring a "too low' mount above the viewers head. That makes it unacceptable.

Ftoast....I seldom toss this out as it usually does nothing but create upsettedness, but because I have others on & off Forum depend upon my choices, I do in fact research things carefully, and I have been aware of the limitations of the DVDO AIR3C since it came out, and I tried one personally. Because at the time it was less expensive by half to other alternatives, I hoped it would work in a Closet within the Theater Room only 12' away from the PJ....it would not. That meant it was essentially worthless. Thank goodness for Amazon prime.

Much of what you freely state regarding Equipment is wholly dependent upon what you have only read, not actually experienced. I am fortunate (...or otherwise...) to have had the opposite advantage. I've installed the long & short throw w1000 series BenQs, the 8350 & 3000 and 3600e. also the AE8000u....Epson 5030s and 6030s, JVC 4Ks and Sony 4ks, Viewsonics & Vivitek STs...LGs...etc., all under a variety of situations and surfaces. I know what actually works and what doesn't.I make my choices knowing what is needed for a given situation and I seldom make a mistake concerning my choices because of that experience. And above all else, when I make a suggestion to a Member on here, it is not based on supposition or simply what I have read. That is why when I "tell" someone what to do or buy, I fully expect to be held accountable for the end result.. Some might call my stating such as that being pretentious...or worse, "talking down" to others. God knows i know better than to purposefully come on like that for any reason, so often have i been called to account for seeming as such. No...my motive is and always has been getting DIY'ers excatly where they need to be as quickly, easily, and if at all possible, as inexpensively as possible as long as they don't sacrifice too much quality in the end for savings in time, effort, and expense getting there. So yes...I often "Tell" instead of suggest, but if you read carefully into the requests we get, that is exactly what a majority of DIY'ers want to hear.

Absolutely, the need for people to read about choices and opinions by others certainly comes into the picture as well. So in no way am I suggesting I am, or should ever be considered a definitive source for info. But all the same it seems that your overly focused on disputing my comments, dismissing my suggestions, and refuting my reasoning. Yeah, I am guilty of jumping on the Wireless HDMI you referenced, but having had personal experience with the thing, I felt both an urgency and obligation to do so.The one i liked to I have used....with equipment located in a Closet in a different room. So I'd stand behind it just as if i was the one installing it.

Now as far as the OP goes...he does not need a PJ that will have to be mounted as low as the BenQ will need to be, discounting the need to tilt and then also employ Keystone correction. Since he should not consider the BenQ, the decision falls to choosing a PJ whose positioning attributes can allow it to be placed as far above the top of his screen as possible. And given that he's stated ambient light will be almost no concern, if he doesn't mind having wire chases running up his wall/ceiling, yes, a 8350 will do him "ok". But unless you have ever experienced what the Super Resolution feature actually does, don't dismiss it. I have loved installing a great many 8350s, and everyone of 'em were "please'rs"....but I won't ever do so again unless I have to.

Lastly, to me, a cosmetic installation is very important. Often I will myself do what needs to be done to make something "disappear" even if the other person involved say" I don't care." And running exposed Wiring up a wall and across a ceiling is tantamount to being criminal as far as "I" am concerned. Shucks, I don't tolerate a 110 outlet or HDMI Plate "beside" a ceiling mount, let alone cords draped across a space. So if I seem overly concerned with suggesting the OP try his best to avoid such, it's because I know in the short & long run that is exactly what he really would like, if indeed not what he would "settle" for if necessary.

So really, it should be his decision based on having the best possible installation he is willing to effect...and pay for. If and when cost and effort creates an impasse, that is the time to suggest a less costly, less cosmetic alternative. All the focus based on cost factor alone deflects from the idealism of getting the best job done possible. and...quite often, that equates to getting the best value for the money and time spent.
MississippiMan is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 08:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,196
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1539 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by dftkell View Post
Yes, the projector would be directly overhead. So let's figure the top of my head seated is 40" (this is just a guess), and the projector would be around 7'2" above the floor (again, a guess). That puts the projector about 42" above the top of my head, give or take.
Do you think that is too close?

This room is a loft above my garage. I have already run all of the speaker wires and subwoofer cables on both sides of the room through the floors, into the garage, and into the adjacent bedroom. So for the projector I would do the same with the HDMI cable. I would simply use some cord management strips to neatly run the HDMI and power cable and it's extension cord I would have to use, around the skylight and down the wall to the outlet and the floor.

Wireless HDMI at least isn't necessary as I will run the HDMI through the floor and into the garage to my receiver.
Well, I'm dumb..the wireless I was linking won't work from that separate room.
Is running wiring through the ceiling/wall preferable to running the wiring along the ceiling/wall? Would you prefer wireless over either?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
As far as the Epsons, your basing all of your disagreement on supposed false claims by the Mfg.that you have no idea are or are not false. That amounts to suggesting to the OP that they are in fact false and going further to suggest they would be poor choices.

........and overstating the cost difference by still referencing the BenQ by comparison, a PJ that will compromise a decent installation by requiring a "too low' mount above the viewers head. That makes it unacceptable.
Every professional review and every user (that has compared the the 3000/3500/3600 has said the same thing I've just said.
The stated specs are false, but that doesn't make them bad projectors, only makes them expensive for what you get.

I haven't overstated the differences..I listed them directly and plainly.
I still included the w1070 because the OP seemed to be asking whether or not the 7" height would pose any problem and you were the only person suggesting mounting higher (was it for cosmetic reasons? .

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
"A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 04-04-2015 at 09:05 PM.
Ftoast is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Okay, I'm back in the room and I've been measuring and rearranging for a couple hours now. One thought I had was that I could have a floating shelf run across and underneath the skylight. There are shelf brackets made for sloped ceilings. So this gives me more flexibility as to how far back the projector can go. The limiting factor is, the further you go back, the lower the projector must be because the ceiling is sloping downward.

Here is what I've determined:

If I go with the 100" electric AT screen---

the smaller width allows me to have only have my center speaker behind it. The bottom of the screen can be right above the top of my subwoofer and my center speaker can go back a few inches. (The center will be raised so it's tweeter will be the same height as the L/R.)

The top of the viewing part of the screen will be 77" off the floor. To have my projector lens 77" high in the rear of the room with the sloping ceilings, the projector can be 10'6" maximum from the screen. Any further back and the projector will be lower and lower due to the descending ceiling.

So with a 100" screen, if the lens of the projector is directly in line with the top of the viewing portion of the screen, the projector can be as far back as 10'6".

The is well within the range of the w1070. This is also in the range of the Epson 3600e that you mentioned MM. It's a foot within. So even if my measurements were off by a few inches, it should still be fine.

So I should be fine with either projector in this scenario.

If I go with the 125" electric AT screen---

A few factors now come into play. The larger screen cannot hang over my sub. So it will now have to be several inches in front of it because it is much lower to the ground. I would lose 4" distance--so the screen is now 4" closer to the projector.

The top of the viewing part of the screen is also higher now because when the screen is pulled into the room a bit, it has to go a little higher to mount to the ceiling which gets higher and higher as it extends towards the center of the room.

Here with a 125" screen, if the lens of the projector is directly in line with the top of the viewing portion of the screen which is now a bit higher, the projector can be as far back as 9'9".

At this distance, the w1070 cannot do 125". The Epson 3600e cannot as well since it would need to be 12' back.

I am basing all of this on what I have heard about the w1070--that it must be positioned so that the lens is in line with the height of the top of the screen. (Or very close to it.)

I'm assuming the Epson 3600e works the same. BUT, if it can be several inches lower than the top of the screen, I could check if that could work. But I would have to gain 2 feet which might not work.

So, I'm not sure that a 125" screen can work in my room. The 100" looks good though.

Mississippi Man, what do you think? Should I just do the 100" with the w1070? Or is the Epson still better even if I can positioned the Benq accurately? Or maybe there is another projector you would recommend given the measurements.

I wanted the 125" to work but I don't see how it can.

Thanks
Dan
dftkell is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Well, I'm dumb..the wireless I was linking won't work from that separate room.
Is running wiring through the ceiling/wall preferable to running the wiring along the ceiling/wall? Would you prefer wireless over either?
I'm not that concerned about the HDMI cable. My plan was to use Cord Mate channels and neatly run it down the ceiling, down the wall and this into the floor. Then it runs along the garage ceiling until it come up into the closet in the bedroom.

I might be able to run the HDMI through the ceiling and fish it into the crawl space in the back and then into the garage.

Wireless would be a nice feature. But I could make do without it if need be.

Thanks
Dan
dftkell is online now  
Old 04-04-2015, 11:05 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 19,741
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1262 Post(s)
Liked: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by dftkell View Post

Here with a 125" screen, if the lens of the projector is directly in line with the top of the viewing portion of the screen which is now a bit higher, the projector can be as far back as 9'9".

At this distance, the w1070 cannot do 125". The Epson 3600e cannot as well since it would need to be 12' back.
Well this might just be the answer.
The BenQ W1500
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=projecto05-20

Recently discontinued, it's a W1070/75 with a Booster Shot
  • 125" diagonal @ 9' -8"
  • 2200 Lumen
  • Lens Shift
  • Wireless HDMI (if you want to use it)
  • Frame Interpolation
  • Quieter than a W1070 / 75 (...this is the primary reason I feel mounting height is important. ...)
  • $1600.00
There is enough of a Difference to be had between 100" and 125" that even if you had to apply a small amount of Screen Flock to the edges (1"-2") it would be worth it.


Even at 100" the difference between the wW1070's Fan output and the W1500's could be critical with the placement so close overhead.
Also, the 1500's refinements allows for it to claim to be a Home Theater PJ...not a Home Video PJ.



Quote:
So, I'm not sure that a 125" screen can work in my room. The 100" looks good though.

Mississippi Man, what do you think? Should I just do the 100" with the w1070? Or is the Epson still better even if I can positioned the Benq accurately? Or maybe there is another projector you would recommend given the measurements.

I wanted the 125" to work but I don't see how it can.

Thanks
Dan
The W1500's extras plus it's ability to be placed close enough for you to consider the larger screen is in my reasoning an important consideration. So much so that if I was doing the install I would cut in a Cubbyhole recess Into the Slope for the PJ to sit back into if all I needed was the difference of 6" Even if I had to notch a Roof Joist a bit.

Otherwise, at 100" I would instead suggest the W1070 because it can be placed closer "and" therein about 6" higher up.(...Center of the Lens to the top of the screen...) You can't count on the W1070s small amount of Vertical Lens Shift for much...but in your circumstance even a little can spell the difference.
MississippiMan is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off