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post #1 of 27 Old 09-14-2015, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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A Heads UP for Ambient Light oriented Projector Heads

The time has arrived...as was indicated a couple months back.

Dark Energy Abyss is ready for Prime Time....in both Manufactured* and DIY modes.
*Voxel Worx

As far as DIY applications go, Dark Energy Abyss will be available on a Flexible Material that can be stretched across a DIY made frame. As such it is more in keeping with other Screen materials available for general DIY applications. However being a applied, multi-layered Optical Film, it's constituents cannot be discussed in detail.

This should not be inferred as to be a discouragement to any / all those who are continuing the effort to find a applicable "Non-Paint" solution for use in ambient light situations. To all of you engaged in such....good luck and success is always in mind.

That said, below is something to shoot for. But'cha better bring some heavy caliber ammo!

The first 3 shots clearly illustrate the degree of Black level enhancement.









The rest represent the scope of the dynamic Color reproduction as well as the incredibly low amount of attenuation of Whites compared to the extreme depth of darkening of black levels and enhanced Shadow detail.



Very huge difference in the Dynamic range of color.



Enhanced Shadow detail even in high ambient light.........



"Super Big Difference"



Dark Energy perhaps......?









As an added note, all the images and movies were taken using an Epson 2030 whose lamp has "4000" hours on it....so it should be taken into account that the Lumen output is fairly low. Dark Energy Abyss maintains a minimum of 1.0 gain despite being the absolute darkest Screen there is...bar none.

Lighter hued, slightly higher gain versions of Dark Energy Abyss are entirely doable, however as a result of the extensive and intensive development that was undertaken these last few months, the end result determined that in truth there was no need to sacrifice the Blacks and dynamic Colors Dark Energy Abyss provides in both controlled lighting as well as a darkened room environment.

Perhaps best of all to take not of....this does not represent the "End All"....as further development is underway.

It's a great time to be a DIY'er looking for the best possible non-painted screen solution.
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post #2 of 27 Old 09-14-2015, 11:33 AM
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Every time I think I have a screen I might be happy with long term something like this comes along. Oh well, that's what keeps this interesting!
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post #3 of 27 Old 09-14-2015, 12:54 PM
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Thanks MM - I haven't pulled the trigger on ordering for my screen yet so this could be good timing.

Are you able to give details or send PM for pricing and how to order ?
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post #4 of 27 Old 09-14-2015, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchabby View Post
Thanks MM - I haven't pulled the trigger on ordering for my screen yet so this could be good timing.

Are you able to give details or send PM for pricing and how to order ?
There are rules to follow:

  • No unsolicited PMs canvassing for "business", although receipt of PMs requesting info / pricing is allowed for Forum Sponsors.
  • It's best to carry any such requests to the Dark Energy Thread located on the Voxel Works Sponsor Forum
  • No discussion (asking) of Pricing on open Threads...period. On any Forum. Don't ask....no answer will be forthcoming. A end user can relate what they paid of course...but that's the extent of any such reveal.
  • After on acquires a Dark Energy "DIY" version they can of course post about their experience & results here.
  • If they acquire a fully Mfg version, then those responses should be posted on the Screens Forum.


As an avowed DIY'er I am of course partial to seeing the upcoming DIY version reach the Beta Evaluation stage. That should be sometime next week, so anyone with an interest..........?

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post #5 of 27 Old 09-15-2015, 06:39 AM
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Interested. I was planning to build a silver over white spandex screen soon and have the materials arriving this week but this seems like it would be a much better performer. If the price is right....
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post #6 of 27 Old 09-15-2015, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
..receipt of PMs requesting info / pricing is allowed for Forum Sponsors.

It's best to carry any such requests to the Dark Energy thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/434-vo...rgy-abyss.html
Does that mean it's okay to PM sponsors with pricing questions?

If not, when should the website or someone have actual pricing to be found?

Every manufacturer claims their material to be the best and many can deliver a very good product, it's the price that'll make or break anything as much as performance.
If this ends up with a price near flexi-white, members can look forward to a strong light-rejecting screen for only a couple hundred dollars.
If the price is a bit higher it'll end up against the newer Elite materials..higher than that and it'll have to compete against the Microlite and others.

Also, is there any timeline for when to expect some measurements of peak-gain, off-axis gain, white balance, optimal projector height...all that important juicy screen-ish stuff?

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #7 of 27 Old 09-15-2015, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Does that mean it's okay to PM sponsors with pricing questions?

If not, when should the website or someone have actual pricing to be found?
Yes...a Member can PM a Sponsor...but Sponsors, even Advertisers cannot solicit through PMs. That so many actually do...well that's how some play the system. C'est la Vie

Quote:
Every manufacturer claims their material to be the best and many can deliver a very good product, it's the price that'll make or break anything as much as performance.
As someone whose experience is awash in having seen so many supposed claims by Mfg turn out to be mostly sales hype, and judging DIY endeavors against same, I'm pretty cautious about overstating performance. When your Peers actually get a hold of what you advocate, and it turns out to be nothing as alluded, credibility goes south. So far...I've avoided that.

Quote:
If this ends up with a price near flexi-white, members can look forward to a strong light-rejecting screen for only a couple hundred dollars.
That would be nice....but is completely unrealistic. Gotta stick to Sprayin' known Paint applications onto Walls or Boards to be in that range.

Quote:
If the price is a bit higher it'll end up against the newer Elite materials..higher than that and it'll have to compete against the Microlite and others.
The application is designed to compete against the biggest players in the Business. Mfg Screens costing literally "Several Thousands". None of the aforementioned are really proficient...nor are they remotely what can be called "Black". They simply aspire to fill a desired need for a ALR-oriented application. And basically you get what you pay for....well maybe not, but that's a discussion for elsewhere. That said, the best I can relate is that the costs to a DIY'er will be reasonably fractional to that of a DNP or Black Diamond....but hopefully adjudged to be well worth whatever the cost involved.

Quote:
Also, is there any timeline for when to expect some measurements of peak-gain, off-axis gain, white balance, optimal projector height...all that important juicy screen-ish stuff?
First, specific Mfg logistics and acceptable examples on Flexible material must be well in hand. At that time we hope to provide such to relevant, unbiased Members with the necessary Test equipment. Until then, posted visual examples as compared to other references will have to suffice. You can be sure that such examples will not be a case where results are weighted, or the application is in any way coddled. The upcoming Beta Evaluation Program will also let participating Members join in with their own subjective opinions....something I personally feel hold as much importance as any testing can offer. Still, both "are" important, and both will be pursued.

As for a timeline? Sometime between now...and the not so distant future.
(re: ...before the real decision making season swings into gear...)

More Images.









I would welcome any comments or opinions as to the images shown so far.
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post #8 of 27 Old 09-15-2015, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

I would welcome any comments or opinions as to the images shown so far.

If it is a "screen" material you purchase and the DIY part does not involve the screen surface in any way it is simply a DIY frame to hold said materials, then the only photos that should rightfully be posted should be of how to make the frame with only slight mention of what is going on the frame. The proper forum would be the screen forum and testing and talk of testing should be there.

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post #9 of 27 Old 09-15-2015, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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The Dark Energy Screen is in essence in the same category as the offerings from Carl's Place, Phifer Sheerweave, various offerings from Seymour, as well as many other well known DIY ALR Screen Material products that are sold to be part of a DIY build.

Your prolonged absence has had you miss how DIY Screen building has embraced the use of such products, as much out of necessity as by demand by those who expressed how their own projects involving such items should not be excluded. Also, it seems there is a general anathema toward anything related to DIY Screen construction, and many who do post on Screens, they get sent to this Forum.

I myself over the last 13 years at many times expressed the need to stick with wholly non-Mfg Screen products....and frankly, was taken to task for such more often than not. To that effect, I've changed...times have changed...and the range of choices for DIY'ers have changed.

In this case, the core element of Dark Energy is made strictly from non-Mfg Screen components, but in such a way that it is impossible for the DIY to duplicate. This Thread is dedicated to bringing a material to bear that a DIY'er can aspire toward using in extremely adverse circumstances, and NOT be dependent upon needing a virtual light cannon....and accomplish such a build themselves at a wholly reasonable expense.

I have stated the rules by which I and others must go by, rules that allow for discussion of concept. All such "sales oriented" fare is kept elsewhere. Being a Forum Sponsor allows just that small amount of leeway, and so being, I intend to respect both the rules and the need for others to be made aware of what is possible.

That's it....the end of the discussion in this Vein. Be a part of it or not, but please respect the rights of others to choose for themselves.

Thanks.

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post #10 of 27 Old 09-15-2015, 01:49 PM
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Not AT, correct?

My Gear: Sony VPL-HW40ES, 130" Spandex Screen, Onkyo TX-NR818, Fusion 12 Tempests (LCR), Axiom M3 & M2 Surrounds, Mach 5 UXL 18 Subwoofer

My theater: Escape from New York theater build
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post #11 of 27 Old 09-15-2015, 04:22 PM
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I would like to comment on all the images shown in this thread. I think all the images on the right look better than the images on the left. Is there anything else we could offer to even improve the image to the right more? Just so I’m correct is this material something a person buys and then put it on a frame as part of the DIY process? I can’t alter the actual surface in any way that reflects the projector light?

The half on the right looks a lot better.

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post #12 of 27 Old 09-15-2015, 04:38 PM
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The contrast, black and color pop looks amazing, for sure!

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post #13 of 27 Old 09-15-2015, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderm0n View Post
Not AT, correct?
Not AT...but a Ultra High Contrast / High Gain paint coating for spandex is in the works. However that's a subject for another upcoming Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
I would like to comment on all the images shown in this thread. I think all the images on the right look better than the images on the left. Is there anything else we could offer to even improve the image to the right more?
We worked very hard to achieve the level of balanced performance shown....and rightly feel it excels at what it does. Where do you see something lacking? Just curious, mind you.

More gain? Easy/ But that restricts viewing cone and can lead to warm / hot spotting. The Screen can't get much darker than virtually Coal Black....a level of Black near & dear to "Black Screen advocates, and a level I cannot say that any other screen accomplishes....and still clocks in at 1.0 gain. Whites are virtually not affected...making this Screen one that does indeed increase the level of contrast "on screen" under adverse conditions. It's not "creating" anything....it simply retains almost every bit of White / Color brightness while substantially deepening Black Levels and Shadow detail.

So....what's lacking? Your opinion counts.

Quote:
Just so I’m correct is this material something a person buys and then put it on a frame as part of the DIY process? I can’t alter the actual surface in any way that reflects the projector light?
Of course you could...but as to what affect.....that's the question. Dark Energy consists of specially chosen and meticulously "machine applied" Optical Films, and is the end result of no fewer than 8 generations of prototypes. One can always alter anything....mayhap for the betterment of such...but often for the worse.

Truth being...2 months ago we had a spectacular sample with 1.4 gain. But just 30 degrees of viewing cone. I called it junk.....so it's sitting down in my barn, propped up on the rails of a Horse Stall.....

Quote:
The half on the right looks a lot better.
And as opposed to the images at the top of the page, the one's shown just above were taken in very restricted light conditions. One can see the matte White trying a bit harder....but it's a pitiful runner-up. Coming very soon, Matte White vs Dark Energy in total darkness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by los3088 View Post
The contrast, black and color pop looks amazing, for sure!
That's the goal. Personally, I deplore any screen surface that robs "Peter to Pay Paul" by overly attenuating Whites and Color dynamics just to provide deeper Blacks.

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post #14 of 27 Old 09-16-2015, 07:12 AM
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How does this compare to SilverFire NC?

I was just about to start a SilverFire NC screen build but if this ends up being close to the same price ballpark then I would be very interested. It would definitely be an easier application, especially since I have built a screen using Carl's FlexiGrey but no experience with a HVLP sprayer.
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post #15 of 27 Old 09-16-2015, 11:31 AM
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Was this all just a teaser for now? Like in the black-screen thread?

There are still no prices listed in the proper sections (not even a more precise guess than over ~$250 and under $2000).
Still no information inside the voxel website.
No testing information from members nor manufacturer (what has the team been doing with all these test panels?).
It seems like everything about this is TBD with no expected hard dates.

As far as I can tell, there will eventually be a dedicated Sponsor thread listing prices, but right now you seem to have not even a rough estimate of what to expect for a price (except that it'll cost more than the sprayed DIY screens and more than the SilverTicket ambient-light screens).
You mention it's okay to PM a sponsor or post in the sponsor forum about pricing but forgot to mention that you have literally zero pricing information to give.

If this is only able to be a picture thread for now, I'd like to request some specific shots/videos:
-Move back a ways to show where and what the lights are..show what it can fight and what it can't.

-Show a few Abyss VS flexi-white off-axis comparisons..you claimed a huge 0.8-1.0gain off-axis angle before that'd be nice to see.

-Some Abyss VS BlackDiamond 0.8 and 1.4 and other dark screen comparisons would be great to get a feel for how dark this really is and how its angles get affected by light differently.

The tripod is nice, but don't be afraid to walk around with that camera..take some time showing off the off-axis view, the room, the lighting, and explore what this thing can do.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #16 of 27 Old 09-16-2015, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
I would welcome any comments or opinions as to the images shown so far.
The performance indicated by the pic's is extremely impressive, but like ftoast I wonder for what which relative angles of viewer, pj, and light sources this can be expected.

Is the screen surface rugged enough for electric rollup?

Also the unity gain is a limitation for those of us with larger screens (142" in my case).

I calculate that with my setup 45 deg half-gain angle would be adequate; what gain would that allow?

Oh, I see from the other thread that there will be electric, but not big enough.

Any chance width will ever reach 128"?

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post #17 of 27 Old 09-16-2015, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking over the following prior responses.............

A Heads UP for Ambient Light oriented Projector Heads

A Heads UP for Ambient Light oriented Projector Heads

.................I don't see any way I inferred anyone would get immediate pricing via PM request ....really it was the opposite. I said soon to come. I said that was the place for them. I was stating general Sponsor rules. I didn't say "PM now for Pricing". And you might note that was just 2 Days ago. . Believe it or not, I'm a driving force and decision maker in helping to determine "MSP". Not the only one mind you....but I have what I feel is a natural responsibility to ride check (...if not Herd...) on such decisions, and that's one reason why I am there. If it takes another week or so for me to get my way.....I hope it will be appreciated, not denigrated.

Of course I have a rough estimate. But rough isn't ready in this case, because it applies more to actual Material costs / Mfg / Pkg & Shipping. That however ties directly to the realization that I have mentioned a Beta. program that is supposed to supersede any actual sales. "Beta." usually means discounted sales for Trial & Evaluation.

We are hoping to place two with capable Members will the ability to do such effective Testing, and at the same time hope that decent sized examples of the SI-BD line up, and the DNP .8 (...the later being only 1/2 as dark as DE...) for effective and non-disputable comparisons.

Matte White is a No-Contest example if ambient light demonstrating is done And in the dark, it only provides a visual difference between two examples as to the shade of bright White and actual visual Color differences. But again...few invest in a high gain Ambient Light screen because they want to use it in a dedicated Theater w/lights fully down.

There are too many critical trade offs between such screen designs. Well "were"....Dark Energy goes far to eliminate those Trade Offs

In any case, that's as far as I can take such discussions on this Thread.
.
Also already related....you can and should post on the Voxel Worx Forum for more candid (...and legitimized...) responses.

But I'll answer a few things else.

Dark Energy's
"HTML5" intro onto Voxel Worx "Site" comes when I feel we have a definitive line up, non changing, and ready to roll. Not before, so ditto with such info.

But that does not mean Dark Energy is dragging it's nebulous toes. What has been started, and for only a short time so far, is a Sponsor opting to pay to first use the Forum to introduce new "coming" Products. If that introduction precedes Pricing, that is a business decision. And not subject to much outside prompting to speed things up. But there is no reason for us to be restrained from making the eventual listing of Prices and such a more meaningful entry by prefacing the entry with as much information and lead-in examples as possible.

Good things will happen...and if someone is in a rush.....go Beta.

Finally on those points....You have not seen me post any images of a Flexible Dark Energy application. What has been shown are 100" sized Fixed Screens. And...I have mentioned that 122" diagonal is the largest size in 16:9 and 130" diagonal in 2.39:1

The Flexible application must be perfect....as good as it can be. I and others are quite insistent on that. And versatile. It's supposed to fill a niche where extreme measures are needed, and someone wants a Base from with to make exciting, but affordable plans.
As 4 Day ago, I could have said "here it is". 2 Days ago, upon meticulous viewing, there was just enough unevenness in texture in small, centrally removed areas to send the process back for Mfg review.

Metal and PVC "True Zero Edge" Panels, meant to be applied directly to a Wall / Board or to a rigid frame of the User's making....those are here, and can be Beta priced on the Voxel Worx Forum.

Complete Framed Screens (Solid & Flexible), Electric Retractable, Wall Tiling....I can get people what they want, but we prefer to take things at a modest pace.

Retail Prices? Later...and elsewhere.

.
So again...let this Thread be for opinions on the Visual reveal...and appeal. More examples are coming. Everything that can be accommodated. Perhaps not upon immediate demand...but coming they are.

For anything else....Post here.... *


PS....look for links.
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post #18 of 27 Old 09-16-2015, 07:28 PM
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Simple question about all the split screen images that are posted.

Was the projector calibrated for the screen on the right or the screen on the left at the time of taking the photos?

If you need a gray scale calibration gradient bar chart I can send you a .JPG of one in 1080P that you can use. You could even take a photo of the calibration gradient bar against both screen surfaces so we can see they are both calibrated the same. We don’t need to worry about color calibration at this time only black to white balance.

Bud
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post #19 of 27 Old 09-16-2015, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Simple question about all the split screen images that are posted.

Was the projector calibrated for the screen on the right or the screen on the left at the time of taking the photos?

If you need a gray scale calibration gradient bar chart I can send you a .JPG of one in 1080P that you can use. You could even take a photo of the calibration gradient bar against both screen surfaces so we can see they are both calibrated the same. We don’t need to worry about color calibration at this time only black to white balance.
Thank you for that offer. I PM you an address soon.

I stated on the Voxel Worx Thread that no calibration was done for either surface. Factory defaults and a Lamp with 4000 hrs. provides what is being shown. I didn't want to goose up Gamma or enhance brightness in any way. What was desired was a look at the Whites quality as compared to the deepening of the Black Floor.

I want to see the shots taken with a Fresh lamp, so that is also on the agenda. Calibration with the oldster won't be all that accurate anyway.

I'm anxious to see definitive test results. Considering what is being used now and the shown results it's hard to imagine their being anything but sterling in nature. If by chance there is an excess of reflectivity, then that is easily accommodated and compensated for with calibration and / or ND Filters.

You can always turn it down, but you can't create more light where there isn't any.

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post #20 of 27 Old 09-16-2015, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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The performance indicated by the pic's is extremely impressive, but like ftoast I wonder for what which relative angles of viewer, pj, and light sources this can be expected.

Is the screen surface rugged enough for electric rollup?

Also the unity gain is a limitation for those of us with larger screens (142" in my case).

I calculate that with my setup 45 deg half-gain angle would be adequate; what gain would that allow?

Oh, I see from the other thread that there will be electric, but not big enough.

Any chance width will ever reach 128"?
122" in 16:9 130" in 2.39:1 are the upper limits so far...the Mfg process itself being the buzz kill. 60" high is as high as can be accommodated.

I have some shots of a earlier Prototype I posted a while back that show viewpoints at 45+ degrees. Things have improved since then, but it's entirely possible to regress back to a more Retro Reflective
point...the real issue being that all that is really gained is a couple points of gain...not huge jumps....but loss of viewing cone is more pronounced in comparison.

Unrelated to the questions just posed by related to the effort overall:

Dark Energy
is supposed to be an affordable and IMO so far, a superior choice over the very best ALR Mfg Screens. That said, it's not nor will it be a "give away" priced item.

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post #21 of 27 Old 09-18-2015, 09:58 PM
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Not AT...but a Ultra High Contrast / High Gain paint coating for spandex is in the works. However that's a subject for another upcoming Thread.
MM, so this is about 1.0-1.2 gain screen?

And Have you posted the thread for the higher gain screen yet? And what would be the gain of said screen, 2.0+?
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post #22 of 27 Old 09-19-2015, 03:24 AM - Thread Starter
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MM, so this is about 1.0-1.2 gain screen?
While Dark Energy will hover between 1.0 / 1.2 gain, it's perceived on-screen contrast will make imagery appear to be much brighter.

No two ways about it, with additional gain comes all the caveats...and no amount of hype or claims can change that. I can say that only a very few examples at 1.4 gain+ have ever come close to being an exception, and they involved a combination of high reflectivity and balanced diffusion. The depth of the coatings / layered materials has much to do with all that, and the key being....what combo works best and what process can deliver such.

Quote:
And Have you posted the thread for the higher gain screen yet? And what would be the gain of said screen, 2.0+?
No...everything is still in the planning stages.

But a clarification:

The "Not AT" referred to the shown Dark Energy screen. The coating being pursued for Spandex is a spray-applied coating with a minimum of 1.4 gain being sought.

We already have in hand a Dark Energy screen that approached or exceeded 1.4 gain. It is called DE Aurora but we have set it aside for now in deference to Dark Energy Abyss that has the best Blacks of anything to date, and a viewing cone of 120 degrees, while DE Aurora at best was 80 degrees....deemed wholly unacceptable by me.

I realize that for many with narow rooms and a wholesale lack of the need for such expanded viewing area, that DE Aurora would fit the bill just fine. But in the short scheme of things, if my drive to have price come in at a governable level is to succeed, then my goal is to come out with the Holy Grail of screens. A screen that can be virtually "all things to most everyone".

But even so I must use words like "virtually" and "most" because such a lofty goal is impossible to achieve. There will always be those with special needs.

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post #23 of 27 Old 09-19-2015, 10:45 AM
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0524 hours. Damn.

You MM, are STILL an animal.

Okay, just saw the 0400 post on the Black Flame thread. Make that a SERIOUS animal.

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post #24 of 27 Old 09-19-2015, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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0524 hours. Damn.

You MM, are STILL an animal.

Okay, just saw the 0400 post on the Black Flame thread. Make that a SERIOUS animal.

...........whose about to take a serious Nap. Gotta...almost banged my head on the Key Board!

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post #25 of 27 Old 09-19-2015, 04:56 PM
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This looks neat, but with such a dark surface I wonder if white and lighter shades will be dull. I'm looking forward to seeing more info on this screen though. Will this be at Cedia?
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post #26 of 27 Old 09-19-2015, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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This looks neat, but with such a dark surface I wonder if white and lighter shades will be dull. I'm looking forward to seeing more info on this screen though. Will this be at Cedia?
CEDIA? No....it just came into existence over the last 90 days.

As far as whites go, the sterling attribute of Dark Energy Abyss is the marked spread between the darkest Black and the lightest "White".

I / we have reached well into the realm of excellent performance with painted solutions already, so it would make no sense at all to introduce a more expensive "Hang and Shoot" option that would only even equal that level.

Nope...it must be lots "Mo Bedder" or it would be a non-stater.

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post #27 of 27 Old 09-19-2015, 06:31 PM
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CEDIA? No....it just came into existence over the last 90 days.

As far as whites go, the sterling attribute of Dark Energy Abyss is the marked spread between the darkest Black and the lightest "White".

I / we have reached well into the realm of excellent performance with painted solutions already, so it would make no sense at all to introduce a more expensive "Hang and Shoot" option that would only even equal that level.

Nope...it must be lots "Mo Bedder" or it would be a non-stater.
Oh, you had mentioned Cedia in the other thread so I thought you meant you'd be the. Thanks for clearing that up.
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